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#100607 - 05/17/05 03:34 AM Christians and BDSM
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Someone sent me this article and I thought it was hilarious. I normally do not get into religious debates but this is just too much!! Their religion is failing and they will do anything to bend the rules. You don't have to be into or fully understand the BDSM lifestyle to see how wrong this is on many levels.

Christians and BDSM

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Q:So exactly what is "Christian" BDSM?

A:First off, I do not like the term "Christian BDSM". It infers a relationship between the two terms that I feel should not be made. That is why I named this site "Christians and BDSM". However, having said that, I will say that I feel that "Christian" BDSM is a relationship between two believers who have agreed together that they want their relationship to incorporate some or all of the dynamics of BDSM.

Q: Does it differ from "secular" BDSM?

A: It does differ from secular BDSM in that the relationship is (or should be) confined to a husband and wife in male dominant/female submissive roles. Also, the Bible is the ultimate authority... if something is "accepted" in BDSM circles but prohibited by the Bible, then it is prohibited in a Christian BDSM relationship.

Q: Are BDSM relationships different in Christian BDSM? If so, how do they differ?

A: See Above

Q:How are Christian BDSM relationships similar to secular BDSM relationships?

A: Secular BDSM cannot be easily categorized. There are as many different ways to "do" BDSM as there are people to do them. The relationships are the same, however as (and when) they are based in love and not the selfish pursuit of self gratification.

Q: Can we do anything we want in Christian BDSM?

A: CAN we? Of course! SHOULD we? Of course NOT!

Q: If not, what are the prohibitions for Christian BDSMers?

A: Anything prohibited by the Bible, plus anything not agreed upon by the couple. Of course, limits may be pushed or changed. One might say their limit is "no canes", but if they agree to try it then the limit may be challenged. It may stand, or it may change, but it should be done by mutual agreement.

Q: Are Christian BDSM folk a legitimate group of BDSMers?

A: Yes... or to put it another way, "Why wouldn't we be a legitimate group of BDSMers?"

Q: Why aren't Christian BDSM folk accepted by some secular BDSM folk?

A: IMHO, they look at their adopting a BDSM lifestyle as flying in the face of what they believe is traditional Christian morality. To find Christians in the lifestyle challenges their belief. They cannot handle this challenge to their stereotyping of Christians, so they reject those Christians who are in the lifestyle.

Q: Can we say what is always Christian BDSM and what is always not Christian BDSM?

A: No, except to the extent of what is Biblically prohibited. After that, it is different for each couple. Some may live a strictly D/s relationship without any bondage or S&M while others may practice domestic discipline (DD), either with or without the structure of a D/s relationship. Others may include bondage and/or S&M into their relationship in varying degrees.

Q: Does Christian BDSM work out in daily life? If so, how?

A: IMHO, yes, it does. The dominance and submission aspect of BDSM models the traditional Biblical marriage relationship, while the bondage and S&M aspects enrich the sex lives of those who partake of them.

Q;What should a Christian dominant think about himself?

A: I feel that a Christian dominant should think of himself as a steward of the submissive that God has given him. Speaking for myself, I think of myself as a caretaker and guardian of my submissive... one who has a charge to protect and nurture her.

Q: What should a Christian submissive think about herself?

A: I'll have to ask gentle^spirit to address this in a later post, also.

Q: What should a Christian dominant think about his submissive?

A: A Christian dominant should think of his submissive the same way that God thinks of her. Again using myself as an example, I believe that my submissive is my "treasured possession" just as God called Israel His "treasured possession" (Exodus 19:4-6)

Q: What should a Christian submissive think about her dominant?

A: I'll have to ask gentle^spirit to address this in a later post, also.

Q: How do the thoughts of a Christian dominant differ from those of a secular dominant?

A: I feel that the difference between a Christian dominant and a secular dominant revolve around who they focus on in the relationship. While I don't believe that all secular dominants are this way, I do feel that many put their own needs and desires far above those of their submissives. Christian dominants should put the welfare of their submissives before their own needs. As for me, my thoughts are for my submissive first and for my own pleasure and gratification second. My greatest gratification comes from seeing her grow and prosper.

Q: How do the thoughts of a Christian submissive differ from those of a secular submissive?

A: I'll have to ask gentle^spirit to address this in a later post, also.

Q: How does the treatment of a submissive by a Christian dominant differ from treatment of a submissive by a secular dominant?

A: RESPECT... I'm not trying to say that secular dominants do not respect their submissives, just that I cannot see a dominant who calls himself a Christian not respecting his submissive.

Q: How does the treatment of a dominant by a Christian submissive differ from the treatment of a dominant by a secular submissive?

A: I'll have to ask gentle^spirit to address this in a later post, also.

Q: Have Christian BDSMers made BDSM better or have we just adopted the secular BDSM habits, traditions, etc.?

A: While there are many aspects of BDSM that are the same whether you talk of Christian or secular BDSMers, it all depends on whether you bring Biblical principles into the relationship or use the BDSM aspects to pollute the relationship.

Q: If a Christian dominant expects his submissive to let him lead her 100%, should he expect to replace God in the submissive's life?

A: He shouldn't. The dominant should be led 100% by God; so, by extension, hey should be leading his submissive 100% by God's direction. In other words, the dominant should assist his submissive in her relationship with God and not stand in the way of that relationship. In fact, the dominant should encourage his submissive's spiritual relationship, and correct any wavering from that path.

Q: If a Christian submissive is 100% submissive to her dominant, does that mean that she no longer has a personal relationship with God and can only go through her dominant to talk to and obey God?

A: Absolutely not. The D/s relationship does not supplant her relationship with God. It is only a shadow of that relationship. The submissive is still responsible for her own spiritual relationship with God.

Q: What kind of consequences does a Christian dominant receive when he sin?

A: That depends. If the dominant sins alone, he receives the sin consequence he should. If he causes his submissive to sin, IMHO he also takes on her sin as the one who led her to sin.

Q: If a Christian dominant is supposed to present the submissive before God as a clean vessel, does this mean that when the submissive sins, the dominant has to bear the consequences since he was in charge and failed to keep the submissive on the straight and narrow?

A: No. The submissive does not give up her free will in the eyes of God (again, IMHO), so if she sins independently of her dominant's leading, she alone is responsible for that sin. For example, would you blame the dominant for the submissive having an adulterous relationship on her own?

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#100608 - 05/17/05 08:00 AM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: Carkosa]
Mallamun Offline


Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 12
(That's a lovely, Bathory-esque icon.)

Being VERY heavily involved with the BDSM lifestyle, I find this hillarious.

Quote:

Q: Are Christian BDSM folk a legitimate group of BDSMers?

A: Yes... or to put it another way, "Why wouldn't we be a legitimate group of BDSMers?"




Perhaps because you missed the entire point of the personal self-discovery and mental/emotional liberty involved with the act. The idea is somewhat like stated in George Orwell's 1984: SLAVERY IS FREEDOM. Bondage, M/s relationships, etc., are a form of intense personal freedom: absolute, doubtless release. It is the complete indulgeance of the inner sexual identity and the shameless embrace of one's kinks and fantasies. The idea is to sepperate yourself from the cruelest master of all: your own insecurity and uncertainty. Since belief in an all-controlling, morally dominant god is very much a thing within the Self, to allow him to be the ultimate leesh-holder in your BDSM relationship is harmful. You are supposed to embrace all desires, no matter how dark, and dodge the effects of suppression... NOT put yourself in a position that requires great self-control and responsibility with unfulfilled or unstated emotions on your belt right next to your whip.

Quote:

Christian dominant should think of his submissive the same way that God thinks of her. Again using myself as an example, I believe that my submissive is my "treasured possession" just as God called Israel His "treasured possession" (Exodus 19:4-6)




(grin) How flattering. I know I'd want my wife to compare me to a country. "Honey... you're like Germany to me!" "Are you saying I'm fat?" "I mean Sweden, of course!" "Oh baby, all this geographical talk is turning me on: bring out the hot wax!"

Quote:

While I don't believe that all secular dominants are this way, I do feel that many put their own needs and desires far above those of their submissives. Christian dominants should put the welfare of their submissives before their own needs.




That's bloody offensive, and clearly spoken through a blind spot. There will ALWAYS be dominant assholes who fail to realize that the submissive is ultimately in control of a relationship, and who will try to break their sub and use them in harmful ways. To try to say that this personality occures only in "non-Christian BDSM"ers is along the lines of the willfull ignorance that defines such a large portion of the religion.

Quote:

Q: How does the treatment of a submissive by a Christian dominant differ from treatment of a submissive by a secular dominant?

A: RESPECT... I'm not trying to say that secular dominants do not respect their submissives, just that I cannot see a dominant who calls himself a Christian not respecting his submissive.




"I'm not trying to say that--" Yeah right. Once again, the response to the question "What is the difference between...?" is an offensive response, veiled thinly with, "Of course I'm not saying that-". Why such a difficult time speaking your mind directly? I can speak mine just fine. You are DANGEROUS in a dominant BDSM position. Go try being submissive for a while to get a good hold of the spectrum. Let someone train you. Better yet, go back to church.

Christians should, like anyone else, feel free to practice BDSM if that is in the character of the individuals. I happen to know of quite a few fetish folks who carry a Christian-oriented belief in God, but are still heavily involved with the lifestyle. This odd twist of trying to cross BDSM with "traditional Biblical relationships" whilst using the Bible as a "rulebook" is something else entirely, however. Something I'm not at all convinced of. I just don't see how it's beneficial--it's a half-sin, which is worse than sin itself or abstinence altogether. I wish people would make up their minds. Gray areas don't work well with such extreme mindsets.
_________________________
~Meddle naught in the affairs of Dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

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#100609 - 05/17/05 08:08 AM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: Carkosa]
IronCrafter Offline


Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 733
Loc: A Harsh Reality ,Wa USA
The Doktor encouraged people to practice fetishes without guilt. It was simply seen as natural.

I have seen these conflicted Christians in local "scenes" for many years now,and they simply amuse me,nothing more.

So much chasing of tails to try to justify themselves.

When I partake of BDSM,it's just something done for fun-I never make a big deal about it being some superior "lifestyle". My only concern is that anyone I'm involved with practices informed consent.(If a person cannot consent by law,that is wrong to me too) And that they are not cheating on a married spouse,or other partner, and using ME to do it.

I could give a rat's ass otherwise.
_________________________
"Life is an objective-achieve it." "Be who you are and say what you feel,because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr Suess My home page featuring my work can be found here. HS! Crafter

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#100611 - 05/17/05 08:38 AM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: Carkosa]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

It does differ from secular BDSM in that the relationship is (or should be) confined to a husband and wife in male dominant/female submissive roles. Also, the Bible is the ultimate authority... if something is "accepted" in BDSM circles but prohibited by the Bible, then it is prohibited in a Christian BDSM relationship.




Actually given the biblical slant on male/female status relationships it makes sense Christians would adapt BDSM (so-called) for their use.

From one hollow “scene” to another, it makes little difference.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#100612 - 05/17/05 08:45 AM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: Svengali]
IronCrafter Offline


Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 733
Loc: A Harsh Reality ,Wa USA
I totally agree on that one Svengali.

Sex is one thing,this "Domination and submission" thing is quite another. Why does someone have to be inferior in power just to have kinky sex?

Or for that matter,place all of the responsibility on the "top" for what happens? Isn't this just another way of trying to shed blame for what should be a MUTUAL responsibility for choices made? To my way of thinking, if you have to get over guilt by doing these sorts of mental twists,you still have a lot of growing up to do. Come back to it when you are adult enough to face that.

But of course, try to say that to the "D/s" people,and they will immediately brand you as a heretic.

How terribly amusing


Edited by IronCrafter (05/17/05 08:48 AM)
_________________________
"Life is an objective-achieve it." "Be who you are and say what you feel,because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr Suess My home page featuring my work can be found here. HS! Crafter

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#100613 - 05/17/05 08:55 AM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: IronCrafter]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
I am not criticizing ANY sexual preference or orientation.

Just pointing out that it is not entirely contradictory for Christians to adapt “BDSM” in a biblical context.

Notice they limit the submissive role to females and the dominant role to men.

THAT is where they are off the Satanic chart.

Satanism accepts ALL modes of sexual gratification between consenting adults as long as they are self-aware.

Christians are still stupid and retrograde even if they take a shine to bondage trappings.

“BDSM” is not automatically Satanic by any stretch of the imagination anyway.

That "scene" definately suffers from an over-surplus of idiots and rejects, just like any other "scene."
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#100614 - 05/17/05 09:16 AM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: Carkosa]
MagisterRose Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 05/21/03
Posts: 2403
Quote:

You don't have to be into or fully understand the BDSM lifestyle to see how wrong this is on many levels.





This statement implies that there are hard and fast rules that must be abided by. It calls to mind something that someone else said...

Quote:

None of the performers consider that their "emancipated" form of sex might be regarded as regimented and infantile by non-members who fail to equate uniformity with freedom.
Anton LaVey in The Satanic Bible




To each their own. These people do not practice bdsm to your liking? Too bad. It is their lives, their fetishes, their pleasures. If it stems from repression it wouldn't be the only sexual fetish to spring from hang ups and neurosis.
_________________________
Empty heads babble the most.

The good die young... because they see it's no use living if you've got to be good.
John Barrymore

HARDCOVER INFERNALIA

PAPERBACK INFERNALIA

HARDCOVER KASIDAH

PAPERBACK KASIDAH

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#100615 - 05/17/05 09:37 AM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: Carkosa]
BlasphemousOne Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 1655
Loc: Connecticut, USA
I agree with everyones statements here. This person is trying to legitimize their fetish, which would be a "sin" to most Christians, by incorporating their Gods' name into it. The fact that they say the Male is dominant, while the Female is submissive shows their sexist attitude. I also find this statement hilarious:

Quote:

If a Christian dominant is supposed to present the submissive before God as a clean vessel, does this mean that when the submissive sins, the dominant has to bear the consequences since he was in charge and failed to keep the submissive on the straight and narrow?

A: No. The submissive does not give up her free will in the eyes of God (again, IMHO), so if she sins independently of her dominant's leading, she alone is responsible for that sin. For example, would you blame the dominant for the submissive having an adulterous relationship on her own?




This pretty much is saying "We are equals, but when the going gets rough, you are on your own" Sinning together is fine, but when my ass is on the line for something YOU did, tough luck. What hypocrisy from a Christian! (Oh wait, thats an oxymoron!)

I assume next on the list to salvage their failing religion would be Pedophilia for Christ. No...thats too obvious.

I wonder if they use wet noodles instead of a Cat o' Nine tails.

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#100616 - 05/17/05 09:43 AM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: Svengali]
IronCrafter Offline


Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 733
Loc: A Harsh Reality ,Wa USA
I agree that whatever floats someone's boat consensually is just fine Reverend Svengali. I guess I am just burned out on the idiocies in the "scenes" that consider D/s a default,and that it should be the "true way' of doing things.

I think equality is a human right,not a GENDER right.

I agree with the parrallel of Christianity thinking in this "D/s" form, and feel it's idiotic to take that for granted as "correct". No form of outside thought is Satanic,no forms are,but the core of Satanism itself.

Embellishments are entirely up the the individual pursuit of pleasure. As far as rejects in the scene,well,I left that many years ago.

The false pride,continual stereotyping, and just plain mental illness is not terribly healthy to want to be around.
_________________________
"Life is an objective-achieve it." "Be who you are and say what you feel,because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr Suess My home page featuring my work can be found here. HS! Crafter

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#100617 - 05/17/05 09:47 AM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: BlasphemousOne]
Nyarlathotep Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/10/03
Posts: 959
Loc: Nashville, TN
Quote:

What hypocrisy from a Christian! (Oh wait, thats an oxymoron!)



[grammarnazi]
That's not an oxymoron, that's a redundancy
[/grammarnazi]
_________________________
"I think, therefore I am dangerous."

"So now you'll see that evil will always triumph...because good is dumb."
-Dark Helmet, Spaceballs

HAIL SATAN!!

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#100619 - 05/17/05 10:19 AM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: Carkosa]
fiftythirdspirit Offline


Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 362
This post gave me that same creeped out feeling I get when I have gone out with a gentleman for the first time, I invite him up to my place, he looks around, then starts (for the first time since I met him) describing to me how into "evil" he is, blah, blah, blah.

It's to laugh. The "guilt" of Christians and the extremes to which they will go, looking ridiculous in the process.

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#100620 - 05/17/05 10:47 AM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: Carkosa]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
Hilarious, thanks for sharing.

I have never heard of such thing, I learn a new thing every day, serves to show how delusional christians are in all areas they operate, even the supposed 'open-minded' christians, as the ones who are not into BDSM would call those who are...hardly an accurate observation taking real facts into consideration. There is no such thing as a dominant christian. What they do in the scene is role-play. These types have no capability apparently to discern fact from fancy and are most likely the ones who outside a scene are unbearable to co-operate with and will always think they are on top of things. "Looky here, if I arrived first here by this parking spot I am the one on top of this circumstance, if you don´t run the bank and need to inquire about your savings account with the help of the manager, he is on top of that circumstance, be nice to the guy, you are not in the Dungeon."

I just shake my head and go off my merry and profitable way when they approach me in intimidating manners concerning my choice of name, aesthetic and role-play preferences.

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#100621 - 05/17/05 11:56 AM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: Carkosa]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
Between 1993 and 2003, I organised the Lady O Society, for submissive ladies and their Masters. Naturally I was in contact with practically all other BDSM and related fetish groups.
Christians popped up from time to time. There is something in their bible that says that women must be subservient to their husbands. So those poor little cretins thought “whoopee, here’s our chance to have some fun!”
Until they encountered the people who really know how to have fun. Unfortunately they also met the needy BDSM people. There was a BDSM magazine, nice and glossy, its title an elegant other-language variation on the word “bottom”; it was nicknamed Deadend. The owners, sincere BDSM people, had invested an awful lot of money in that mag. In the early years, we, less opulent groups, had hoped that their friendly attitude would include heeding advice. It didn’t. They got their doors battered down by the Vice Squad. That was how it was in 1990s Britain. I have to admit that I paid the Editor’s fine, because she was diabetic and imprisonment would have had a disastrous effect on her health. I also told her NEVER AGAIN. Get sensible.
They didn’t believe that I meant it.
Deadend was trying to pick up the pieces when the xtian group swooped. Trading on the fact that the then Editor and cheque-signer of Butt-end (that was the less polite version of their title) had been made seriously ill by her ordeal.
I had been very busy with Lady O Society membership applications and being “agony-aunt” for most of the women who had joined LOS and writing my first BDSM novel, Working Girl. I had not noticed …
So here it was. A xtian BDSM mag.
It still had to sell. Whilst all other BDSM mags were trying to prove, oh we’re good consensual people …the Vice Squad, not even the British-bigot Vice Squad could find nothing wrong with us, please …
By this time, I had come out from my selfish preoccupation with my books. Sure, Working Girl was selling and I was getting on fine with #2, The Servants, and was thinking about ditching LOS, but we BDSM people had other priorities. The real world. .
Of course that glossy xtian BDSM mag first edition sold. Vice Squad never bothered them. I heard that very few bought the second. It ceased to be an issue.
So now they are back.
HAIL SATAN!
Magda
PS Since some CoS people seem to have misunderstood it, would anyone like to discuss the realities of BDSM. Here or PM.

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#100622 - 05/17/05 05:50 PM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: Svengali]
VKat Offline


Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 157
Loc: Northern California
Quote:

Notice they limit the submissive role to females and the dominant role to men.




I noticed and suspected it before reading the post. I live in Idaho, we have lots of new christian churches popping up in the area. They have become concerned with their failing marriage statistics. Their attempt to save it, is to reincorporate men as the leaders and women as the followers. In order to not anger feminists, they put a clause in that the husband is required to listen to his wife.

I also didn't enjoy that he implied that submissives are not responsible for actions taken with their dominant. Submissive make the choice to obey. Not just choose to be submissive, but choose to partake in every action. To be submissive is not to have a doormat for a personality. This seems to be an over all misconception. The submissive still has responsibilities, they are not blameless.

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#100623 - 05/17/05 07:23 PM Re: Christians and BDSM [Re: Carkosa]
Kenose Offline


Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 70
Does any christian philosophy make any sense ? Why would this view or idea be any different ?

The sooner they all acknowledge that they are just carnal beasts akin to any other creatures upon this earth the sooner they all can live life, enjoy life, and quit trying to come up with silly ideals to continue living/enjoying wicked 'sins' and then going on the guilt trip after that leads to all the pleading and crying for god to forgive 'trip'.

Must be so tiresome pointing a finger to the illusion of a devil being responsible for all the earths 'dark' designs. Or appeasing a good figure responsible for all the 'comforting' events. Damn fools.

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