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#11309 - 08/27/03 12:39 PM Correct Latin
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
I have a question about the Latin form of "Hail Satan".
As far as I remember, the greeting "Ave" is a vocativ, and therefore is used with a following ablativ, which means, that the correct form should be "Ave Satani".

Anyone here good in Latin, who can enlighten me?
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#11310 - 08/27/03 12:56 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer]
Blackheart Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 389
Loc: England
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Edited by MagisterParadise (03/14/05 12:37 PM)

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#11311 - 08/27/03 01:05 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Blackheart]
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
Thanks for the link, Bunny.
I am only confused, that they say, the nominative form of Satan in Latin is "Satana".
My Latin dictionary says, the word "Satan" is translated as "Satanas, ae, (masc.)"
Therefore I doubt, that "Satana" is correct.
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#11312 - 08/27/03 01:11 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer]
L. Kabron Offline


Registered: 02/07/02
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Edited by MagisterParadise (03/14/05 12:37 PM)
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#11313 - 08/27/03 01:18 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer]
Koerbagh Offline


Registered: 10/01/01
Posts: 76

We had a thread about this some time ago. Here goes again:
"Hail Satan!" in Latin is either "Ave Satanas!", or "Ave Satana!" (even "Ave Satan!" would be possible, with a direct loan from the Hebrew). You may find the correct Latin in Doc's works, by the way.

And ... where the Hell did you get that "Satani" from? It's used in the Omen film series, but that doesn't mean it's Latin.
--A.K.

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#11314 - 08/27/03 01:21 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: L. Kabron]
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
¿Hay una versión hispánica de la biblia satanicá?
¿Está bien traducida?
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#11315 - 08/27/03 01:25 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Koerbagh]
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
Thanks for your response, Magister.
I have to apologize I did not search for former threads about this.

Quote:

And ... where the Hell did you get that "Satani" from?



As I said, I learned this in school.
Also, there is a German community called "AveSatani".
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#11316 - 08/27/03 01:52 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer]
L. Kabron Offline


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Edited by MagisterParadise (03/14/05 12:38 PM)
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#11317 - 08/27/03 02:00 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: L. Kabron]
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
Hm, is this so difficult where you live?
I hope you will find a version.
By the way, thanks for the Spanish reply.
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#11318 - 08/27/03 05:41 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer]
L. Kabron Offline


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Edited by MagisterParadise (03/14/05 12:38 PM)
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#11319 - 08/27/03 09:23 PM Lament of the Latin Student [Re: Jack_Bauer]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12600
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
"Latin is a dead language.
It's plain enough to see.
It killed off all the Romans
And now it's killing me!"

-Anonymous

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#11320 - 08/28/03 07:02 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: L. Kabron]
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
Well, if I could get one around here, I would buy it, but it is not important for me, to have a Spanish version. I have two German versions and the American version, because the German translation is not the best. Also, I can refer directly to the words of Dr. LaVey, if necessary.

I just thought you would like to have a Spanish one, because you seem to speak Spanish as good as English, while I only speak some words in Spanish.
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#11321 - 08/28/03 07:04 AM Re: Lament of the Latin Student [Re: Nemo]
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
I read from your words, Magister, that you neither like Latin, nor think it is necessary to know it.
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#11322 - 08/28/03 09:30 AM Re: Lament of the Latin Student [Re: Nemo]
Bumbly3 Offline
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Registered: 07/28/02
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Edited by MagisterParadise (03/14/05 12:39 PM)
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#11323 - 08/28/03 10:19 PM Re: Lament of the Latin Student [Re: Jack_Bauer]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12600
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I only remember the poem now.

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#11324 - 08/30/03 12:18 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer]
Helena Offline


Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 548
Loc: Texas
I studied Latin for 8 years. In the phrase "Ave Satanas", the "Ave" is the second person singular imperative.

The usage of the word Satanas is both simple and complex. Satanas is an indeclinable word since it comes from the Hebrew word for adversary. When speaking one language and tossing in words from another, one does not decline the foreign word into one's own language. It would corrupt the word and its original use and meaning. For example if you were to use a word from a language other than English in the past tense - you would not use an -ed at the end of the word.

An interesting bit for any of you who are would like to know some history about how the word Satan came to mean what it does today to so many people. Satanas was a word used in the Greek New Testament quite frequently. Interestingly enough in each context it actually meant adversary, or some thwarting force of men or circumstance. It was used so frequently to mean this that people began to personify the word in later times to mean an actual physical adversary which was named Satanas or Satan.

So think for example if every time you said the phrase "oh shit" and if this was written in a historical text, what would people thousands of years from now think about that? Would they think that we prayed to this almightly thing, called "shit" and asked for respite when awful things happened upon us? Would they think that we thought by invoking this being's name saying "oh shit", an invocation used in the direst of circumstances, it would cease our problems and distress? Of course they would. And thus Satan was born.

HS!
Hecate


Edited by Hecate (09/01/03 06:02 PM)

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#11325 - 08/30/03 12:30 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Extremely interesting explanation. Thank you!

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#11326 - 08/30/03 04:15 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena]
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
Thanks for your explanation, M'am.
That was exactly, what I wanted to know.
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#11327 - 08/31/03 06:51 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena]
Koerbagh Offline


Registered: 10/01/01
Posts: 76

Thanks for your interesting input, Lady Hecate. I would like to elaborate upon it, if I may!

First, I would say "Ave" is an imperative, not a vocative, since it is not a noun, but a verbal form (from the verb *[h]aveo).

Second, Satan was introduced in the Holy Bible in the Old Testament, not the New.

Third, Latin "Satanas" does not come from the Hebrew form of Satan, which is "Satan" (unvocalized: /s' - t. - n/) - not "Satanas", which is Greek. Latin "Satanas" therefore comes from the Greek "Satanas". In Greek, the Hebrew "Satan" was adapted as "Satanas", i.e., with a Greek ending. In Greek, "Satanas" is not indeclinable, whereas "Satan" is (Hebrew loan). In Latin, "Satan" is indeclinable (Hebrew loan), and "Satanas" may be indeclinable (Greek loan). Dr. LaVey uses this variant, i.e. Satanas as a Greek loan and indeclinable. However, truth be told, most often we find "Satanas" in Latin as declinable, using either the Latin or Greek declinations. This means Cicero would probably have dated his personal papers "Anno Satanae" instead of "Anno Satanas" ...
--A.K.

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#11328 - 09/01/03 11:38 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer]
Xerx Offline

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Registered: 02/09/02
Posts: 656
Loc: Italy
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Edited by MagisterParadise (03/14/05 12:39 PM)
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#11329 - 09/01/03 06:02 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Koerbagh]
Helena Offline


Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 548
Loc: Texas
Duh! The imperative is correct. I don't know why I typed "vocative". That certainly was a bleeding error. I must have been thinking about something else. You know what, I bet it was my fixation on the way Lars spelled vocative without an "e" on the end. It stuck in my mind for a bit there and must have really lodged itself there. I'm changing the original post now.

Your explanation of the word Satanas is interesting. Although I don't speak Hebrew and therefore have not read the Old Testament I wouldn't have any idea if it was in there or not. BUT my New Testament professor was and is a highly respected theologian and I respect his opinion that Satanas in Greek as it's used in the New Testament is indeclinable. It was during his lectures that I read a large portion of the New Testament in Greek. I am not a Biblical scholar and am frankly not too interested in it (note that I'd never even read the thing in english before I read it in Greek), but my professor's take on the subject was objective and therefore interesting to me at the time.

Interesting reply, though. Thanks for sharing!

HS!
Hecate

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#11330 - 09/02/03 12:55 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena]
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
I meanwhile noticed my "vocative" error, M'am.
Of course, Magister Koerbagh is right, it is an imperative. I would change this in my other post, too, but unfortunately, it is no longer changable.
Thanks to both of you for helping me on this.
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#11331 - 09/02/03 10:08 AM Re: Lament of the Latin Student [Re: Nemo]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Your post made me remember this:

'Charlie was a chemist,
But Charlie is no more,
What Charlie thought was H2O,
Was H2SO4'

Sorry for the waste of time

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#11332 - 09/02/03 01:47 PM Correct Greek [Re: Helena]
Koerbagh Offline


Registered: 10/01/01
Posts: 76

Thanks for your reply, Lady Hecate. You've put things in perspective for me now.

One thing, though, your teacher may be a highly respected theologian and be of the opinion that Satanas in Greek as it's used in the New Testament is indeclinable, but I have here in front of me the New Testament in Greek and I just checked a famous passage:

Mark 3:23 "kai proskalesamenos autous en parabolais elegen autois pws dunatai satanas satanan ekballein" - "And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?"

Clearly, "Satanas" is NOT undeclinable, since we have the nominative "Satanas" versus the accusative "Satanan" here.

And this is just one example ... Oh well, who cares anyway.

Forgive me for my rattling your cage!
--A.K.

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#11333 - 09/02/03 10:23 PM Re: Correct Greek [Re: Koerbagh]
Helena Offline


Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 548
Loc: Texas
Wow, you really did your research! I stand corrected.

Thanks for taking the time to post!

HS!
Hecate

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#11334 - 09/04/03 09:41 PM Re: Lament of the Latin Student
Nogitsune Offline


Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 85
Loc: N. Region of the W. World
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Edited by MagisterParadise (03/14/05 12:39 PM)
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#11335 - 03/14/05 10:41 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena]
man_mind Offline
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Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
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Edited by MagisterParadise (03/14/05 12:40 PM)
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#11336 - 03/14/05 12:43 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer]
MagisterParadise Offline

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Registered: 07/03/01
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14 March XL A.S.

This is ridiculous, people...

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