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Correct Latin #11309
08/27/03 05:39 PM
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Jack_Bauer Offline OP
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I have a question about the Latin form of "Hail Satan".
As far as I remember, the greeting "Ave" is a vocativ, and therefore is used with a following ablativ, which means, that the correct form should be "Ave Satani".

Anyone here good in Latin, who can enlighten me?


~ Suum cuique. ~
Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer] #11310
08/27/03 05:56 PM
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Last edited by MagisterParadise; 03/14/05 06:37 PM.
Re: Correct Latin [Re: Blackheart] #11311
08/27/03 06:05 PM
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Jack_Bauer Offline OP
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Thanks for the link, Bunny.
I am only confused, that they say, the nominative form of Satan in Latin is "Satana".
My Latin dictionary says, the word "Satan" is translated as "Satanas, ae, (masc.)"
Therefore I doubt, that "Satana" is correct.


~ Suum cuique. ~
Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer] #11312
08/27/03 06:11 PM
08/27/03 06:11 PM
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Last edited by MagisterParadise; 03/14/05 06:37 PM.

It's a stinkin' world ol' boy, you got to live in it as best you can.

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Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer] #11313
08/27/03 06:18 PM
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Koerbagh Offline
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We had a thread about this some time ago. Here goes again:
"Hail Satan!" in Latin is either "Ave Satanas!", or "Ave Satana!" (even "Ave Satan!" would be possible, with a direct loan from the Hebrew). You may find the correct Latin in Doc's works, by the way.

And ... where the Hell did you get that "Satani" from? It's used in the Omen film series, but that doesn't mean it's Latin.
--A.K.

Re: Correct Latin [Re: L. Kabron] #11314
08/27/03 06:21 PM
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Jack_Bauer Offline OP
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¿Hay una versión hispánica de la biblia satanicá?
¿Está bien traducida?


~ Suum cuique. ~
Re: Correct Latin [Re: Koerbagh] #11315
08/27/03 06:25 PM
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Jack_Bauer Offline OP
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Thanks for your response, Magister.
I have to apologize I did not search for former threads about this.

Quote:

And ... where the Hell did you get that "Satani" from?



As I said, I learned this in school.
Also, there is a German community called "AveSatani".


~ Suum cuique. ~
Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer] #11316
08/27/03 06:52 PM
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Last edited by MagisterParadise; 03/14/05 06:38 PM.

It's a stinkin' world ol' boy, you got to live in it as best you can.

http://www.myspace.com/lkabron
Re: Correct Latin [Re: L. Kabron] #11317
08/27/03 07:00 PM
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Jack_Bauer Offline OP
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Hm, is this so difficult where you live?
I hope you will find a version.
By the way, thanks for the Spanish reply.


~ Suum cuique. ~
Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer] #11318
08/27/03 10:41 PM
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Last edited by MagisterParadise; 03/14/05 06:38 PM.

It's a stinkin' world ol' boy, you got to live in it as best you can.

http://www.myspace.com/lkabron
Lament of the Latin Student [Re: Jack_Bauer] #11319
08/28/03 02:23 AM
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"Latin is a dead language.
It's plain enough to see.
It killed off all the Romans
And now it's killing me!"

-Anonymous

Re: Correct Latin [Re: L. Kabron] #11320
08/28/03 12:02 PM
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Jack_Bauer Offline OP
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Well, if I could get one around here, I would buy it, but it is not important for me, to have a Spanish version. I have two German versions and the American version, because the German translation is not the best. Also, I can refer directly to the words of Dr. LaVey, if necessary.

I just thought you would like to have a Spanish one, because you seem to speak Spanish as good as English, while I only speak some words in Spanish.


~ Suum cuique. ~
Re: Lament of the Latin Student [Re: Nemo] #11321
08/28/03 12:04 PM
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Jack_Bauer Offline OP
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I read from your words, Magister, that you neither like Latin, nor think it is necessary to know it.


~ Suum cuique. ~
Re: Lament of the Latin Student [Re: Nemo] #11322
08/28/03 02:30 PM
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Last edited by MagisterParadise; 03/14/05 06:39 PM.

Support bacteria it's the only culture some people have.
Re: Lament of the Latin Student [Re: Jack_Bauer] #11323
08/29/03 03:19 AM
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I only remember the poem now.

Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer] #11324
08/30/03 05:18 AM
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I studied Latin for 8 years. In the phrase "Ave Satanas", the "Ave" is the second person singular imperative.

The usage of the word Satanas is both simple and complex. Satanas is an indeclinable word since it comes from the Hebrew word for adversary. When speaking one language and tossing in words from another, one does not decline the foreign word into one's own language. It would corrupt the word and its original use and meaning. For example if you were to use a word from a language other than English in the past tense - you would not use an -ed at the end of the word.

An interesting bit for any of you who are would like to know some history about how the word Satan came to mean what it does today to so many people. Satanas was a word used in the Greek New Testament quite frequently. Interestingly enough in each context it actually meant adversary, or some thwarting force of men or circumstance. It was used so frequently to mean this that people began to personify the word in later times to mean an actual physical adversary which was named Satanas or Satan.

So think for example if every time you said the phrase "oh shit" and if this was written in a historical text, what would people thousands of years from now think about that? Would they think that we prayed to this almightly thing, called "shit" and asked for respite when awful things happened upon us? Would they think that we thought by invoking this being's name saying "oh shit", an invocation used in the direst of circumstances, it would cease our problems and distress? Of course they would. And thus Satan was born.

HS!
Hecate

Last edited by Hecate; 09/01/03 11:02 PM.
Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena] #11325
08/30/03 05:30 AM
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Extremely interesting explanation. Thank you!

Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena] #11326
08/30/03 09:15 AM
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Jack_Bauer Offline OP
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Thanks for your explanation, M'am.
That was exactly, what I wanted to know.


~ Suum cuique. ~
Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena] #11327
08/31/03 11:51 AM
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Thanks for your interesting input, Lady Hecate. I would like to elaborate upon it, if I may!

First, I would say "Ave" is an imperative, not a vocative, since it is not a noun, but a verbal form (from the verb *[h]aveo).

Second, Satan was introduced in the Holy Bible in the Old Testament, not the New.

Third, Latin "Satanas" does not come from the Hebrew form of Satan, which is "Satan" (unvocalized: /s' - t. - n/) - not "Satanas", which is Greek. Latin "Satanas" therefore comes from the Greek "Satanas". In Greek, the Hebrew "Satan" was adapted as "Satanas", i.e., with a Greek ending. In Greek, "Satanas" is not indeclinable, whereas "Satan" is (Hebrew loan). In Latin, "Satan" is indeclinable (Hebrew loan), and "Satanas" may be indeclinable (Greek loan). Dr. LaVey uses this variant, i.e. Satanas as a Greek loan and indeclinable. However, truth be told, most often we find "Satanas" in Latin as declinable, using either the Latin or Greek declinations. This means Cicero would probably have dated his personal papers "Anno Satanae" instead of "Anno Satanas" ...
--A.K.

Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer] #11328
09/01/03 04:38 PM
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Last edited by MagisterParadise; 03/14/05 06:39 PM.

smile smile
Re: Correct Latin [Re: Koerbagh] #11329
09/01/03 11:02 PM
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Duh! The imperative is correct. I don't know why I typed "vocative". That certainly was a bleeding error. I must have been thinking about something else. You know what, I bet it was my fixation on the way Lars spelled vocative without an "e" on the end. It stuck in my mind for a bit there and must have really lodged itself there. I'm changing the original post now.

Your explanation of the word Satanas is interesting. Although I don't speak Hebrew and therefore have not read the Old Testament I wouldn't have any idea if it was in there or not. BUT my New Testament professor was and is a highly respected theologian and I respect his opinion that Satanas in Greek as it's used in the New Testament is indeclinable. It was during his lectures that I read a large portion of the New Testament in Greek. I am not a Biblical scholar and am frankly not too interested in it (note that I'd never even read the thing in english before I read it in Greek), but my professor's take on the subject was objective and therefore interesting to me at the time.

Interesting reply, though. Thanks for sharing!

HS!
Hecate

Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena] #11330
09/02/03 05:55 AM
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Jack_Bauer Offline OP
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I meanwhile noticed my "vocative" error, M'am.
Of course, Magister Koerbagh is right, it is an imperative. I would change this in my other post, too, but unfortunately, it is no longer changable.
Thanks to both of you for helping me on this.


~ Suum cuique. ~
Re: Lament of the Latin Student [Re: Nemo] #11331
09/02/03 03:08 PM
09/02/03 03:08 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Your post made me remember this:

'Charlie was a chemist,
But Charlie is no more,
What Charlie thought was H2O,
Was H2SO4'

Sorry for the waste of time

Correct Greek [Re: Helena] #11332
09/02/03 06:47 PM
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Koerbagh Offline
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Thanks for your reply, Lady Hecate. You've put things in perspective for me now.

One thing, though, your teacher may be a highly respected theologian and be of the opinion that Satanas in Greek as it's used in the New Testament is indeclinable, but I have here in front of me the New Testament in Greek and I just checked a famous passage:

Mark 3:23 "kai proskalesamenos autous en parabolais elegen autois pws dunatai satanas satanan ekballein" - "And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?"

Clearly, "Satanas" is NOT undeclinable, since we have the nominative "Satanas" versus the accusative "Satanan" here.

And this is just one example ... Oh well, who cares anyway.

Forgive me for my rattling your cage!
--A.K.

Re: Correct Greek [Re: Koerbagh] #11333
09/03/03 03:23 AM
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Wow, you really did your research! I stand corrected.

Thanks for taking the time to post!

HS!
Hecate

Re: Lament of the Latin Student #11334
09/05/03 02:41 AM
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Last edited by MagisterParadise; 03/14/05 06:39 PM.

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Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena] #11335
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Last edited by MagisterParadise; 03/14/05 06:40 PM.

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Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer] #11336
03/14/05 06:43 PM
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14 March XL A.S.

This is ridiculous, people...

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