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#113213 - 07/15/05 02:09 PM "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime
TR966 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1874
Loc: Up in the Mountains, USA
CNN

Teens in Satanist case enter plea
By Emanuella Grinber
Friday, July 15, 2005;
Posted: 1:32 p.m. EDT (17:32 GMT)

(COURT TV) -- Two New York teens avoided jail time for attacking a self-proclaimed "card-carrying" member of the Church of Satan (***not a COS member, only claimed to be***) by pleading guilty Tuesday to second-degree assault as a hate crime.

Against the objections of prosecutors, Queens Supreme Court Justice James Griffin sentenced Paul Rotondi, 18, and Frank Scarpinito, 18, to 150 hours of community service and five years' probation for the January 9 attack on Daniel Romano in Maspeth, Queens, a quiet suburb of New York City.

Queens District Attorney Richard Brown recommended three and a half years in prison for the defendants, who faced potential 15-year sentences on five counts, including aggravated assault and use of a weapon in the supposedly Satanism-biased attacks.

"The defendants have ... acknowledged that they harassed, attacked and physically injured the victim because he was different from them," Brown said in a press release.

Prosecutors said that on January 9 at about 2:30 p.m., the defendants called out "Hey, Satan," to Romano from a car before getting out and beating him with an ice scraper and metal pipe.

Romano sustained multiple bruises and lacerations and was treated for 12 stitches in the back of his head.

At the time of the assault, prosecutors noted, Romano was wearing black nail polish and an upside-down crucifix, and his hair was dyed blue.

Scarpinito's attorney, Richard Leff, concedes that his client attacked Romano, but denied the incident was motivated by anti-Satanism sentiment.

"The D.A. may call this a hate crime, but really, it's just a case of some kids acting dumb and beating up another kid who was a bit of an oddball," Leff said.

The charges cast unwanted media attention on the Manhattan-based Church of Satan, whose high priest, Peter Gilmore, attempted to distance Romano from the organization in several interviews.

Satanists consider themselves "the most formidable threat to those who would halt progress in the name of spirituality," according to a Web site, describing its members as "explorers on the untrodden paths of science, human motivation and mystery ? all that is most truly occult."

Founded in 1966, the Church of Satan "holds individualism as one of its main values," according to its Web site, and cautions outsiders that they won't find group hugs "as part of the repertoire."

Conspicuously absent on the Web site are references to human sacrifices or other misperceptions of the religion that prosecutors say sparked the attack on Romano, who claims to hold the Church of Satan's "Red Card" of membership.

The defendants will begin their community service immediately and will return in front of Justice Griffin on October 11, when he will formally vacate their plea as youth offenders and impose the five years' probation, considering their progress.

"The judge evidently thought that what they needed was sensitivity training," said Leff. "This way, they do good deeds and help out society a bit."


Edited by TR966 (07/15/05 04:28 PM)
_________________________
" I am a railing alongside the torrent;
whoever is able to grasp me may grasp me!
Your cruch, however I am not"
Zarathustra
Or, "most people are like Slinkies...
Not really much good for anything, but
they can still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs.
TR966

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#113214 - 07/15/05 02:27 PM Re: COS Member attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
Serpens Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 125
Loc: Western New York
Quote:

"The D.A. may call this a hate crime, but really, it's just a case of some kids acting dumb and beating up another kid who was a bit of an oddball," Leff said.




It's actually a case of violent assault, no matter what the circumstances are, or how "socially inept" the victim is. What a joke.

From what little I understand about the victim, based upon the limited information granted by the initial report, the boy should have realized that it was not in his best interest to trumpet his affiliation in his fiercely Christian locale. "Expressing your individuality" is great, but be realistic and acknowledge what you can gain or lose by employing a little or a lot of tact.


Edited by Serpens (07/15/05 02:37 PM)

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#113215 - 07/15/05 02:38 PM Re: COS Member attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Serpens]
TR966 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1874
Loc: Up in the Mountains, USA
>>a case of violent assault, no matter what the circumstances are, or how "socially inept" the victim is. What a joke.<<
That is all "Hate Crimes", I look at most attacks no matter who is being attacked as at least a pissed off crime, it does not matter who the person is, or why they are attacked. I think the "hate crime" laws are stupid, but do find it amusing that it is being used for this case. I do not think that being charged with an extra "crime" because the person is different looking (color/race), religion (Satanist, jewish...), hair, wardrobe, etc... People are allways going to hate or be afraid of those that are different, but should not be charged extra for not beating up "their own kind". It is stupid, but in this case amusing to me that this law is being used this way. And I do agree that if you look / dress "wierd or different" you have to expect that narrow minded people are going to fuck with you. When I was younger and had dyed hair, or long hair, or mohawks, knew when I went out, that in certain areas of town I would be messed with.
_________________________
" I am a railing alongside the torrent;
whoever is able to grasp me may grasp me!
Your cruch, however I am not"
Zarathustra
Or, "most people are like Slinkies...
Not really much good for anything, but
they can still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs.
TR966

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#113216 - 07/15/05 02:51 PM Re: COS Member attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

The charges cast unwanted media attention on the Manhattan-based Church of Satan, whose high priest, Peter Gilmore, attempted to distance Romano from the organization in several interviews.




It was most certainly not a matter of "attempting" to distance the CoS from Romano.


Romano was NEVER a member of The Church of Satan.


REPEAT: Romano was NEVER a member of The Church of Satan.


In case anyone did not get it the first two times:


Romano was NEVER a member of The Church of Satan.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#113217 - 07/15/05 02:57 PM Re: COS Member attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
Serpens Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 125
Loc: Western New York
Quote:

>>a case of violent assault, no matter what the circumstances are, or how "socially inept" the victim is. What a joke.<<
That is all "Hate Crimes", I look at most attacks no matter who is being attacked as at least a pissed off crime, it does not matter who the person is, or why they are attacked. I think the "hate crime" laws are stupid, but do find it amusing that it is being used for this case. I do not think that being charged with an extra "crime" because the person is different looking (color/race), religion (Satanist, jewish...), hair, wardrobe, etc... People are allways going to hate or be afraid of those that are different, but should not be charged extra for not beating up "their own kind". It is stupid, but in this case amusing to me that this law is being used this way. And I do agree that if you look / dress "wierd or different" you have to expect that narrow minded people are going to fuck with you. When I was younger and had dyed hair, or long hair, or mohawks, knew when I went out, that in certain areas of town I would be messed with.




The defending attorney was certainly in the right to dismiss this as a "hate crime": a little research on google yields information saying that they were repaying him for some injustice involving money. I can't seem to locate many relevant details: this story seems to mutate and change depending on who wrote it. My beef with the statement is that it downplays the severity of the crime because they attackers are "just kids".

Hate crime laws in of themselves are ridiculous. Mens rea, the guilty mind, should be established by an individual's intent to do the crime, not the motivation behind it. You can't have laws that act as phantom thought police. The crime is in the act, not the thought.


Edited by Serpens (07/15/05 03:00 PM)

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#113218 - 07/15/05 03:56 PM Re: COS Member attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Svengali]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
He sounds rather obnoxious. Nothing that could justify assault though.

Can people get in trouble for misrepresenting themselves as members of the Church of Satan when they are not? I thought I saw something about that once.. It might have just been for people saying that they were official spokespersons.
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One stupid post too many.

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#113219 - 07/15/05 04:22 PM Hate Crimes [Re: Serpens]
TR966 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1874
Loc: Up in the Mountains, USA
"Hate crime laws in of themselves are ridiculous"

That was my point, but was amused it being used for a "Satanist".
_________________________
" I am a railing alongside the torrent;
whoever is able to grasp me may grasp me!
Your cruch, however I am not"
Zarathustra
Or, "most people are like Slinkies...
Not really much good for anything, but
they can still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs.
TR966

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#113220 - 07/15/05 04:26 PM "Satanist" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Svengali]
TR966 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1874
Loc: Up in the Mountains, USA
Will change post to reflect such, and I know not to trust the media. "COS member" was just used to garner attention.
Thank you for the correction.
_________________________
" I am a railing alongside the torrent;
whoever is able to grasp me may grasp me!
Your cruch, however I am not"
Zarathustra
Or, "most people are like Slinkies...
Not really much good for anything, but
they can still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs.
TR966

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#113221 - 07/15/05 04:28 PM Re: COS Member attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Serpens]
Cholinergic Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 888
Loc: UK
I would have to agree with you - punishment should be equal to the damage caused by the criminal act to the victim not based upon the motivation for committing the crime.
_________________________
Yes, I named myself after a neurotransmitter

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#113222 - 07/15/05 04:45 PM Stupid. stupid, STUPID. [Re: TR966]
TheAbyss Offline


Registered: 07/08/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Helsinki, Finland.
Quote:

Romano was wearing... an upside-down crucifix...




This had to happen eventually. This is a classic case of misinterpretation of Dr LaVey's writings, and CoS philosophy.

Satanism and Inverted Christianity are NOT the same thing.

Seriously, what did the kid expect wearing an Inverted cross around his neck!

Sorry for the lack of empathy, but what the kid did was generally known as 'Asking for it.'

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#113223 - 07/15/05 06:36 PM Is that all??? [Re: TR966]
Shiva Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 10/31/01
Posts: 2762
Loc: Ormond Beach, FL
I don't like the idea of "hate crimes" in general. As far as I'm concerned, a crime committed is a crime committed, regardless of the motive, and the resulting victim is still the same. I think it's unfair to belittle a crime against a victim where the crime wasn't committed with that particular motive.

But since our country insists on making the distintion, I'll play along here.

Against the objections of prosecutors, Queens Supreme Court Justice James Griffin sentenced Paul Rotondi, 18, and Frank Scarpinito, 18, to 150 hours of community service and five years' probation for the January 9 attack on Daniel Romano in Maspeth, Queens, a quiet suburb of New York City.

For a violent hate crime that presumably carries a stiffer penalty???

I have to ask, what's the penalty for a similar attack that doesn't make the grade for a "hate crime?" Three years probation and 60 hours community service perhaps?

"The D.A. may call this a hate crime, but really, it's just a case of some kids acting dumb and beating up another kid who was a bit of an oddball," Leff said.

So, if two 18-year-olds (maybe 17 at time of committing a violent crime) can still be passed off as being just kids, at what age does NY start prosecuting violent offenders as adults?

I'm uncomfortable with the downplay on the fact that this was a violent crime, regardless of the motives of the perps who were obviously old enough to know better. It wasn't just giving a wedgie to the class oddball. Maybe things have changed since I was a teen, but last time I checked bullying outcasts didn't necessitate stitches.

Yes, there's been a lot of talk about how the victim behaved in an "asking for it" sort of way, but I can't see that as an excuse for this type of violent crime. That's what it boils down to for me - a violent crime, prosecuted in a manner where an even tougher penalty is expected, and the two perps get away with relatively little punishment.

Bear in mind, I'm used to hearing about younger defendents do far harder sentences for far less of a crime.
_________________________
Rev. Shiva Rodriguez
Shiva's World / Headless Historicals / Siren Productions Media / Predatory Moon

"The ugliest of trades have their moments of pleasure. Now, if I were a grave-digger, or even a hangman, there are some people I could work for with a great deal of enjoyment." - Douglas Jerrold

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#113224 - 07/15/05 06:45 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Typical attention-starved teenage clown. He dyed his hair, painted his nails and got out expecting to be noticed. "Hey, look at me, look at me! I'm a Satanist"

He wanted attention and he got it! He won't be the first kid to get beaten by bullies because he looked weird. It happens all the time (usually with no religious implications)

In any case, the lesson to be learned here is that Lesser Magic works. Even when the user doesn’t know how to use it and gets the opposite results of what he expected.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#113225 - 07/15/05 06:52 PM STUPID [Re: TheAbyss]
TR966 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1874
Loc: Up in the Mountains, USA
Agreed,
Side story, I got a had made gift from another
COS member, a necklace, and I wore it out one
night under my overshirt. The heat, and the
booze caused me to take my overshirt off, and
not think (drunk) about my necklace, later that
night I got jumped (x-ian area but where isn't)
I gave much better than I got, but was pissed
afterwards about my own stupidity (happens to
all of us on occation right ) I was not that
mad about being jumped (lived in the city, not
someting new to me, been jumped, stabbed, and
even shot at, for making the "mistake" of walking
through the "wrong" neighborHood) Remember
Responsibility lies where?¿? Got your ass kicked?¿?
Think about why, and learn from it, this nation
is Court / sue / woe is me crazy. I wear my
jewelry during ritual, not on public display for
the most part now. With age comes wisdom to some.
_________________________
" I am a railing alongside the torrent;
whoever is able to grasp me may grasp me!
Your cruch, however I am not"
Zarathustra
Or, "most people are like Slinkies...
Not really much good for anything, but
they can still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs.
TR966

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#113226 - 07/15/05 08:39 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
CWH Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3746
It doesn't matter if he was or was not a CoS member. It doesn't matter if he was wearing an inverted-cross or not. It doesn't matter if he had his hair dyed blue or pink.

The fact of the matter was that 2 persons, old enough to know right from wrong, beat the shit out of him and could have killed him. No matter what the motives were or why, they chose to commit a crime against him. This act should have warrented more punishment.

He asked for it since he wore an inverted-cross? I don't think so. If he wanted to be "reverse-christian" and show it, it was his choice. I don't beat the shit out of evey X-ian that I know if they wear a cross. That's fucking stupid.

Plain and simple, those two jack-offs would have committed that crime on anyone that could have been in passing. Just because the kid was a "freak", it's a hate-crime? No, its just a crime, period.

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#113227 - 07/15/05 08:52 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: CWH]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
The incident was an all-round collision of dumbasses.

It is unfortunate that the term "Satanism" had to enter into it in any way.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#113228 - 07/15/05 09:40 PM Re: Stupid. stupid, STUPID. [Re: TheAbyss]
Insurgent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2312
Quote:

Quote:

Romano was wearing... an upside-down crucifix...




This had to happen eventually. This is a classic case of misinterpretation of Dr LaVey's writings, and CoS philosophy.

Satanism and Inverted Christianity are NOT the same thing.

Seriously, what did the kid expect wearing an Inverted cross around his neck!

Sorry for the lack of empathy, but what the kid did was generally known as 'Asking for it.'




I'm sorry but I thought we were supposed to abide by civil rights, not bigot rights. I didn't know there was an ammendment in our constitution that said "If you don't like their beliefs then attack them. They're asking for it!" Just another instance of criminals being made out to be victims and the victims being made out to be criminal; "oh poor hate crime convicts, they were prodded into attacking because someone offended their xenophobia!"

Its that kind of attitude that makes Hate Crime legislation necessary. Its that kind of attitude that these laws are slowly eating away at. Its a sad fact that Americans need an extra slap on the hand to keep from assaulting people but that is the way it is. I know this from personal experience with people that would have gladly accepted an assault charge but cringed at the idea of hate crime conviction (meaning: I've lived in the redneck, honkey tonk, White Power south).

Wearing an inverted cross is no more asking for it than wearing a Baphomet. Being a Jew isn't asking to have a Swastika carved into your forehead.

And sure, we should practice good judgment on when and when not to express our religious affiliations (or lack thereof) but it doesn't mean its OK for someone to attack us when we slip. No one would say "He asked for it." if a real Church of Satan member that was known got attacked by random xenophobes for a Baphomet or whatever else.

Your lack of empathy doesn't bother me. I don't have much empathy for the kid myself. What I feel is a simple understanding what is just and what is unjust. I don't care if he was a Church of Satan member or not even a Pseudo-Satanist, what happened is socially reprehensible.
_________________________
My site: www.josiegallows.com

"My dear Insurgent you're an extremist, intolerant and you have prejudices. That's all."

"I am a fucking Satanist and desire in all of my being to be the Queen of the World if at all possible...."

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#113229 - 07/15/05 09:56 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Svengali]
CWH Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3746
Quote:

The incident was an all-round collision of dumbasses.

It is unfortunate that the term "Satanism" had to enter into it in any way.




Very much agreed Rev. Svengali

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#113230 - 07/15/05 10:01 PM Re: Hate Crimes [Re: TR966]
Ortrud Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 252
Loc: NYC
I don't agree that hate crimes laws are stupid. I do see it as different when someone acts violently towards another person just because of their race, sexuality, gender identification, religion, etc.

When I was growing up, my father used to rant that all homos should be strung up by their balls and beaten. He never expressed this sort of violent rage against anyone else and never committed a violent crime, but I do believe that if he was in a group situation, he probably would've done something stupid. I believe that hate crimes laws are for people who grow up with hatred and don't have the self control to not crumble under peer pressure.

As for the guy that got beaten - I don't care what kind of a stupid jerk he was, or what he was wearing - the law should be on his side and not on the side of violent assholes. Should a woman get raped because she's "asking for it" by wearing provocative clothing?

I don't know the statistics, I don't know if the hate crimes laws are a deterent, but, I think they should exist. I don't flaunt my sexual orientation or religion, but if someone spots me as "different" and beats me up for it, society should punish him severely. What do I pay fucking taxes for, anyway?

Hail Satan!
Ortrud

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#113231 - 07/15/05 10:08 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
Cyrus Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 5
As despicable as this case may be, it is almost humourous in it's predictability.

The world is full of small-minded, insignificant people lashing out in an attempt to find their spot - too bad some of them do it so abrasively.

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#113232 - 07/15/05 10:35 PM Re: Is that all??? [Re: Shiva]
Mjollnir Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1416
Loc: Gone
You would think that aggressively hitting someone in the head with a metal pipe, when not in self-defense, would be considered an extremely violent act.. maybe even attempted murder. It seems weird to me that those individuals were not put in jail. Such slap-on-the-wrist punishment only succeeds in encouraging more of the same behaviour.

Now picture this.. A couple of log-haired, upside-down cross wearing punks with black nail polish beat up a so-called normal looking guy for no reason.. and proceed to bash him in the head with a metal pipe. What kind of punishment would the courts decide? I bet they'd go to jail.

Hmmm.. Not that I really care that much, either way.

_________________________
Please delete my content! I am no longer affiliated with COS or any other religion. I know you have the ability to remove my content, so please do so. I won't be returning.

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#113233 - 07/15/05 10:43 PM Re: Is that all??? [Re: Mjollnir]
CWH Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3746
Quote:


Now picture this.. A couple of log-haired, upside-down cross wearing punks with black nail polish beat up a so-called normal looking guy for no reason.. and proceed to bash him in the head with a metal pipe. What kind of punishment would the courts decide? I bet they'd go to jail.

Hmmm.. Not that I really care that much, either way.






The media would have turned it into some sort of "Satanic" ritual beating or something silly like that.

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#113234 - 07/15/05 10:55 PM Re: Is that all??? [Re: CWH]
Mjollnir Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1416
Loc: Gone
Quote:

The media would have turned it into some sort of "Satanic" ritual beating or something silly like that.





Sure thing.. that would be all over the news, on every television station. There probably would be organized neighborhood watches for future "ritual beaters" .. maybe even a documentary.. and most definitely a "true crime" book written about the matter.

It's a sick world.
_________________________
Please delete my content! I am no longer affiliated with COS or any other religion. I know you have the ability to remove my content, so please do so. I won't be returning.

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#113235 - 07/15/05 11:04 PM Re: Is that all??? [Re: Mjollnir]
CWH Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3746
Quote:



It's a sick world.




Yes, it is.

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#113236 - 07/15/05 11:12 PM Re: Hate Crimes [Re: Ortrud]
Mjollnir Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1416
Loc: Gone
Quote:

I don't know the statistics, I don't know if the hate crimes laws are a deterent, but, I think they should exist. I don't flaunt my sexual orientation or religion, but if someone spots me as "different" and beats me up for it, society should punish him severely. What do I pay fucking taxes for, anyway?





Law enforcement is a joke when it comes to the streets.

Although I totally don't agree with what happened in the story, I must admit the "victim" here seemed to demonstrate very little street smarts. It would seem there is a lesson to be learned from this "victim's" pain and suffering.

The world isn't neccessarily ready to embrace Satan.. Use some discretion and you'll be okay. Rubbing Satan in a Christian's face is likely to ignite some unwanted attention.. perhaps of the metal pipe variety.

A brainwashed mind, backed by popular opinion, can be a very dangerous thing, indeed.
_________________________
Please delete my content! I am no longer affiliated with COS or any other religion. I know you have the ability to remove my content, so please do so. I won't be returning.

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#113237 - 07/15/05 11:17 PM Re: Hate Crimes [Re: Mjollnir]
CWH Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3746
Quote:



Rubbing Satan in a Christian's face is likely to ignite some unwanted attention.. perhaps of the metal pipe variety.

A brainwashed mind, backed by popular opinion, can be a very dangerous thing, indeed.




Yeah, remember when Jesus taught that it was ok to beat people with metal objects?

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#113238 - 07/15/05 11:23 PM Hate Crime [Re: CWH]
TR966 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1874
Loc: Up in the Mountains, USA
>>it's a hate-crime? No, its just a crime, period.<<

My point hate or not is not the issue, it is a crime.
_________________________
" I am a railing alongside the torrent;
whoever is able to grasp me may grasp me!
Your cruch, however I am not"
Zarathustra
Or, "most people are like Slinkies...
Not really much good for anything, but
they can still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs.
TR966

Top
#113239 - 07/15/05 11:23 PM Re: Stupid. stupid, STUPID. [Re: Insurgent]
CWH Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3746
Quote:


Your lack of empathy doesn't bother me. I don't have much empathy for the kid myself. What I feel is a simple understanding what is just and what is unjust. I don't care if he was a Church of Satan member or not even a Pseudo-Satanist, what happened is socially reprehensible.




That's exactly how I feelt about this. You just said it better than I. Good call. Thank you.

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#113240 - 07/15/05 11:25 PM Re: Hate Crimes [Re: CWH]
Mjollnir Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1416
Loc: Gone
Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Rubbing Satan in a Christian's face is likely to ignite some unwanted attention.. perhaps of the metal pipe variety.

A brainwashed mind, backed by popular opinion, can be a very dangerous thing, indeed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yeah, remember when Jesus taught that it was ok to beat people with metal objects?




Actually, I've been a little behind on my bible studies. Sorry.
_________________________
Please delete my content! I am no longer affiliated with COS or any other religion. I know you have the ability to remove my content, so please do so. I won't be returning.

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#113241 - 07/15/05 11:35 PM Re: Hate Crimes [Re: Mjollnir]
CWH Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3746
Quote:



Actually, I've been a little behind on my bible studies. Sorry.




(Smiles)

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#113242 - 07/16/05 12:12 AM Re: Stupid. stupid, STUPID. [Re: TheAbyss]
VKat Offline


Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 157
Loc: Northern California
Quote:

Satanism and Inverted Christianity are NOT the same thing.




What is inverted christianity?

Quote:

Seriously, what did the kid expect wearing an Inverted cross around his neck!




Speaking from a "youthful" perspective. I am 22, I've never heard of inverted christianity. An inverted cross worn in my area only signifies a lack of faith in christianity. I don't own any such jewelery but to each his own. I can't imagine that in this persons home area that his attire is really that unusual.

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#113243 - 07/16/05 01:03 AM Re: Stupid. stupid, STUPID. [Re: VKat]
redgriffin Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 211
I believe they are referring to people who are devil worshippers, basically sharing the belief structure of a christian but being in league with the devil. Or as I like to say, the devils cheerleaders

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#113244 - 07/16/05 01:13 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
Okay.

So if I get this right, a kid dresses up like a poster child for Hot Topic. And then proceeds to advertise that he's a "card-carrying" Satanist, when he isn't, and then gets his ass kicked for it?

Sounds like just desserts to me.

The little wretch should have never let "I'm a Satanist.", slip past his lips if he wasn't affiliated. The fact that he got thumped just proves that he's some kind of masochist. Perhaps he's a wimp and can't fight, or perhaps those boots with four inch clog heels wouldn't let him get up enough speed to run away.

Reverend Svengali is correct in his assessment. The Church of Satan should have never been mentioned at all. It just serves to perpetuate the errored sterotype that Satanists are wimpy little goth kids. Apparently, Romano missed the Eleventh Satanic Rule.
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

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#113245 - 07/16/05 01:18 AM For the Record - Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Before we go and rehash this whole issue yet again, I would like to point newer users to this thread, in which many members of the Church of Satan heirarchy responded to this case in-depth for a Village Voice reporter. Yes, folks, reporters do visit these boards--which is yet another reason why it's an especially smart idea to mind one's manners in this very public space.

On a personal note, regardless of how many of us feel about hate crimes laws or the fashion sense of the young fellow in question, it is worth noting two things:

1. Several law enforcement officials acknowledged the fact that Satanism is a valid religion protected like any other. Bravo to them for dealing in the realm of facts and rules, not fantasy and hysteria.

2. CNN, a leading mainstream media outlet with a global presence, made an effort to present Satanism as it is, in a fairly neutral light. Many people in powerful positons would surely prefer that Satanism be dismissed, demeaned or portrayed in a sensationalistic manner. This is the second time this year that CNN has published (mostly) accurate information about Satanism. CNN deserves an Infernal cookie for journalistic integrity, a code that is very nearly dead and buried.

Hail Satan!

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#113246 - 07/16/05 02:04 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Really, although I still think this kid is a dumbass, this is ridiculous.

I can think of half a dozen applicable charges that were never raised against these kids. They should have gotten prison time.

What if a group of Nazis had put this kind of beatdown on a Jewish boy? I'm not saying this kid didn't do something to draw unwanted attention, but nevertheless, the scumbags who commit assaults shouldn't get off the hook because they picked a dimwit to attack.

I'm not sure if I am slightly placated by the token nod the media and courts have given us, or pissed that this has resulted in a great deal of injustice. An ordinary assault (without the claims of "hate crime") would have probably garnered a stiffer sentence.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#113247 - 07/16/05 02:51 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
Maya Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 1447
Loc: New England
My opinion does not differ much from what has been posted here already.

This kid was an idiot, plain and simple. If you're a Jew, you don't display your Star of David necklace in front of a group of skinheads with swastika tattoos. For Satanists, the group that strongly disapproves of us is much larger. All the more reason to keep our religious affiliations on a need-to-know basis. While I do admit that I do sometimes where a Baphomet charm on a necklace out in public, it is small and always tucked under my clothing. Only two people I know personally know that I am a Satanist, and one of them is a Satanist himself. I prefer to keep it that way. Satanism asks no one to be a martyr, and I'm sure as hell not going to volunteer for the position.

Hate crime laws have their advantages and disadvantages. While I do believe that, for the most part, a crime should be punished based on its severity and not its motivations, I also believe that bigots should be punished more harshly because they are assholes and I do not like them. Of course, these laws could and I am sure have been used improperly. A prosecutor jockeying for media attention and wanting to advance his or her career, political or otherwise, could conceivably use these laws to charge a white or black offender who beat up a man of seperate race because he was sleeping with his girlfriend or wife with a hate crime. After all, headlines of hate crimes sell a lot more newspapers and have many more people watching the evening news than the same old story about a jealous lover assaulting the object of his aggression.

Also, the kid should not have told others that he was a CoS member when he wasn't. I don't think that I have to explain why that is wrong.

This why people who are likely to get attacked should learn how to defend themselves. If anyone ever attacked me, no matter what the motivation, I'd have no quams about bashing their fucking face in.

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#113248 - 07/16/05 05:58 AM HAIL [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Mason_Rust Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 1780
Loc: Michigan, USA
Hail to the best response this thread has seen!
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-Carl Sagan

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#113249 - 07/16/05 06:02 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Felstorm]
Mason_Rust Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 1780
Loc: Michigan, USA
The little wretch should have never let "I'm a Satanist.", slip past his lips if he wasn't affiliated.

One does not need to affiliate with the Church of Satan in order to be a Satanist.

And just a reminder to any out there,
The Church of Satan does not solicit affiliation!
_________________________
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
-Carl Sagan

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#113250 - 07/16/05 06:02 AM Re: Hate Crimes [Re: Mjollnir]
Magui Offline


Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 23
Loc: San José, Costa Rica.
Quote:


The world isn't neccessarily ready to embrace Satan.. Use some discretion and you'll be okay. Rubbing Satan in a Christian's face is likely to ignite some unwanted attention.. perhaps of the metal pipe variety.

A brainwashed mind, backed by popular opinion, can be a very dangerous thing, indeed.




Unless the christian knows you can defend yourself effectively. Everyone looking to "scream out" something that causes controversy, not just satanism, should be able and ready to defend him/herself, or have charm and wit so that people will overlook his differences, or both.
_________________________
"Say a lie, don't live one"

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#113251 - 07/16/05 06:18 AM Re: For the Record - Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Agt. Malebranche, I see your point.

If I look at that article from the perspective of an intelligent outsider, aside from whatever might ring true from the couple quotes off the CoS website, I walk away with two things (both misinformation):

1. That this goth idiot who got his ass kicked was actually affiliated with the CoS, thus somewhat representative.

2. By twice referring to Romano as a member of the CoS, then saying the CoS is trying to distance itself from him, it makes the CoS look like an organization that talks out of both sides of its mouth.

Misinformation propagated by sloppy journalism.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
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#113252 - 07/16/05 06:25 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Mason_Rust]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

The little wretch should have never let "I'm a Satanist.", slip past his lips if he wasn't affiliated.

One does not need to affiliate with the Church of Satan in order to be a Satanist.

And just a reminder to any out there,
The Church of Satan does not solicit affiliation!




He did not just claim to be a “satanist” – there is reason to believe he falsely represented himself as a CoS affiliate.

Early news articles about this incident referred to Romano as a card-carrying member of the Church of Satan, and even specifically mentioned the NY Man in Black Grotto. Where did the journalists get that idea if not from Romano?

I’m not saying the perps don’t deserve punishment. But I am saying this is a case of dumb vs. dumber.

It is unfortunate that the CoS was dragged into this pathetic drama at all.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#113253 - 07/16/05 07:33 AM Re: Stupid. stupid, STUPID. [Re: Insurgent]
TheAbyss Offline


Registered: 07/08/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Helsinki, Finland.
Quote:

Wearing an inverted cross is no more asking for it than wearing a Baphomet. Being a Jew isn't asking to have a Swastika carved into your forehead.




I disagree. In a country where The Passion Of Christ took more money than any of the first 4 Batman movies, it seems rather stupid to take the symbol of one religion, invert it and then publicly flaunt it. I wear a small Baphomet pendant on a regular basis and so far no-one has even remotely suggested the fact that it is Satanic. (Okay, i had one person say "Cool! I like Monster Magnet as well, dude!" but that is another thing.)

It would be a very small majority of the public that recognises the Baphomet as being Satanic, and an even smaller number that would openly take offence.

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#113254 - 07/16/05 11:23 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Svengali]
Mr_Atrox Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1814
Loc: Lycopolis
Quote:

He did not just claim to be a “satanist” – there is reason to believe he falsely represented himself as a CoS affiliate.





An article from the NY Daily News included the following:

Romano, who suffered a gash to his head and a few bruises, claimed to be a member of the Manhattan-based Church of Satan, a nonreligious group that has thousands of members. But the controversial group's head "priest" told The News that Romano was lying.

I agree with your initial assessment - this was, simply, a collision of dumbasses.
_________________________
"If you wanna hurt me, you're gonna have to earn it motherfucker."
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#113255 - 07/16/05 11:28 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
Klogg Offline


Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 29
Loc: Los Angeles, Ca
These kids should've never gotten off that easy. The judge probably shared similar distaste for the "goth kid" but knew he couldn't just let the other kids off.Like most people in this country the judge probably has a vague sense of the xtian faith.

Regardless, its still a crime. And it's a bad thing that the CoS name was even mentioned. The kid fits the stereotype...
_________________________
"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." - D.H. Lawrence *** HAIL SATAN!

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#113256 - 07/16/05 11:50 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
"The D.A. may call this a hate crime, but really, it's just a case of some kids acting dumb and beating up another kid who was a bit of an oddball," Leff said.

So it's only really wrong to beat up people who *aren't* oddballs?

And, isn't the root and point of a hate crime the fact that the victim is usually considered an "oddball" or different through the eyes of the attackers? Duh?

Jesus, what an arse.

I agree with others here that the two offenders got off easy, most likely because the judge and others trivialized the attack because they disliked the victim. If this kid had been black, the offenders would not have just gotten 150 hours of community service, I reckon.

Of course, it goes without saying that this is a lesson to Satanists to watch out and be prepared, especially if one dresses or acts unusually in the public eye. Naturally, the fact that he kid was weird *does not* justify the offenders' contemptible behavior, of course, but when you're the one getting beaten up, who's right and who's wrong don't really matter.

And, we all agree that Romano played this very, very poorly, and had a very weak "plan of attack" in this court case.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#113257 - 07/16/05 11:55 AM Re: For the Record - Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Svengali]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
I always expect the worst when it comes to media coverage of Satanism, and this definitely could have been much, much worse. Individual incidents will be forgotten, but underneath the issues, a decent perception of the tenets of the CoS is being crafted in the collective subconscious.

The worst thing about the coverage, I agree, is the confusion and misinformation regarding Romano's membership status. While they never said that he was a member, the repetition of his false claim made the CoS denial seem dubious--even though it was straightforward from the get-go and never wavered.

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#113258 - 07/16/05 11:57 AM Re: For the Record - Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Yes, it definately could have been worse.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#113259 - 07/16/05 12:11 PM Re: COS Member attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Serpens]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
My beef with the statement is that it downplays the severity of the crime because they attackers are "just kids".

Agreed. My other beef was the fact that he implied that it is natural and normal for youngsters and others to wail on "oddballs," and that we ought to turn a blind eye to it.

My arguments are thus:

1) "Mere kids" do heinous things all the time. Youth does not utterly remove responsibility, nor does it mean that a person can't already be a sociopath or just a general menace.
2) Kids who are allowed to act out and engage in heinous behaviors become even more dangerous and deranged as they grow. People giggle when the wee pup bites them, but when the dog becomes an 150-pound pitbull, the behavior is less "quaint" and cute.
3) It is indeed "normal" for humans to be blindly xenophobic and territorial, in that it is part of our natural instinctual make-up, but it is often a most dangerous and maladaptive behavior, and it can certainly worsen if it's laughed off or ignored.
4) Millions of people in the world have trouble with oddballs and weirdos, and while a good number do engage in teasing and hazing--at least when they're young, or maybe when they're drunk-- very few whip out lead pipes in the process. No one ever took a lead pipe to me, and I've never taken a lead pipe to anybody, thanks to a little thing called "impulse control." Anyone over the age of 5 who demonstrates that they consistently or noticeably lack impulse control, particularly to a violent degree, is an automatic potential threat. These guys were well over 5 years old.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#113260 - 07/16/05 12:23 PM Re: HAIL [Re: Mason_Rust]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Thanks!

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#113261 - 07/16/05 07:49 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
patbateman Offline


Registered: 05/07/05
Posts: 16
1. This guy was a fraud. Not a Satanist. So he got what was coming.

2. I believe that the true Satanist need not advertise. You can be subtle. If you are going through an area chock full of people prejudiced against your religion, don't jab everyone with a pitchfork. It's just as bad as that bit in Die Hard 3 with Bruce Willis walking through Harlem with a sign saying "I hate niggers". Not that a Satanist would be wearing an inverted cross and bleating about being a Satanist to all and sundry. Nevertheless, you have the right to look any way you like, but you should be smart enough not to do it in an environment which will enrage everyone. I like black nail polish and black clothes (which probably makes me passe and/or cliche according to a lot of people, but I like it so I don't care), but I wouldn't wear it while gamboling through a family bbq, shouting "Hail Satan" purely for shock value and smirking at my ridiculous, over inflated sense of self satisfaction. That is the Satanic sin of stupidity. I guess some would say that wearing goth getup anywhere is asking for trouble, as most people at least pay lip service to xianity and could get offended. Well, I'm not going to let it change who I am, but I'm not going over the top either. A dark suit meets my needs and seems less juvenile. And attracts little undue attention.

The lack of needing to advertise is a strong point for me, and it shows this guy's insecurity. I don't need to say "I am a Satanist" to make myself feel powerful. The most powerful and self motivational thing I can say is:

"I am (insert name here)"

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#113262 - 07/17/05 09:59 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: TR966]
hiddenwolf Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3
Loc: yukon
obiviusly, the darwin theory applied here, we dont need weak members. if u should fall, it is because of your own doing
_________________________
heil to a new satanic empire, slowly emerging from the north.

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#113263 - 07/17/05 10:19 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: hiddenwolf]
MagisterRose Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 05/21/03
Posts: 2403
Quote:

we dont need weak members




Who the Hell is this "We" you're talking about?
_________________________
Empty heads babble the most.

The good die young... because they see it's no use living if you've got to be good.
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HARDCOVER INFERNALIA

PAPERBACK INFERNALIA

HARDCOVER KASIDAH

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#113264 - 07/17/05 11:17 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: MagisterRose]
BlasphemousOne Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 1655
Loc: Connecticut, USA
He must have a mouse in his pocket...

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#113265 - 07/17/05 01:45 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: hiddenwolf]
CWH Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3746
Quote:

obiviusly, the darwin theory applied here, we dont need weak members. if u should fall, it is because of your own doing




Since when does an unfair fight make you weak? Unfair meaning, 2 against 1 and the outnumbering party being armed. Hunting in packs in the wild is all fine and dandy, but hunting for food and jumping someone in order to just beat the shit out of them because you don't like them is 2 different things. This act had nothing to do with natural law or any form of social Darwinism. It was a crime.

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#113266 - 07/18/05 09:10 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: CWH]
ThrashinHellslut Offline


Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 111
Loc: Germany
Yes, it IS a crime (and of course the committers shall get what they deserve). But, so what? This happens every day somewhere in the world. Why should I care for this one, just because it was a "Satanist" who got beaten? I don't got a feeling of "togetherness", anyway.

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#113267 - 07/18/05 02:04 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: ThrashinHellslut]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
I agree with the majority of what has been said. As far as being subtle or having the “right” to look as you please, it is a simple matter of what should be and what really is. Dress as you like, but be wary of the consequences. If you are attacked, yes that is a crime, but also an incident that could have been avoided. The judge totally dropped the ball on the sentencing, these two should have done time, instead they got a slap on the wrist, totally reprehensible.
_________________________
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#113268 - 07/18/05 02:11 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: ThrashinHellslut]
CWH Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3746
Quote:

Yes, it IS a crime (and of course the committers shall get what they deserve). But, so what? This happens every day somewhere in the world. Why should I care for this one, just because it was a "Satanist" who got beaten? I don't got a feeling of "togetherness", anyway.




I never said anything about "togetherness". I just think its bullshit that people can't walk down the street without being robbed, shot, stabbed, beaten or some way harressed for any reason, no matter what they look like or who they are. This incident could have happened to anybody, any where, including you.

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#113269 - 07/18/05 03:21 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: ThrashinHellslut]
Bruja Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
Quote:

and of course the committers shall get what they deserve




Pardon, but I believe that the issue that I have with this situation is that the commiters did not get what they deserved. Who they commited the crime against is irrelevant.
_________________________
Hail Satan!
Bruja

"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." - Margaret Thatcher

"An inordinate passion for pleasure is the secret of remaining young" - Oscar Wilde

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#113270 - 07/18/05 06:06 PM Re: Stupid. stupid, STUPID. [Re: TheAbyss]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
>>I wear a small Baphomet pendant on a regular
>>basis and so far no-one has even remotely
>>suggested the fact that it is Satanic. (Okay, i
>>had one person say "Cool! I like Monster Magnet
>>as well, dude!" but that is another thing.)

Heh, my friend got a similar "Nice Morbid Angel t-shirt, dude!" comment last Friday at Ozzfest.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

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#113271 - 07/18/05 08:32 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: CWH]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
I just think its bullshit that people can't walk down the street without being robbed, shot, stabbed, beaten or some way harressed for any reason, no matter what they look like or who they are.

It's not "bullshit", it's "life" and it's highest law is "survival of the fittest".
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#113272 - 07/18/05 09:12 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: CWH]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Im kind of torn on this subject. He was being pretty damn stupid, and probably could have expected to be harassed or assaulted from the way he was behaving... but of course I don't think anyone deserves a beating (in general). I wonder if he will learn from the experience.

I stopped looking weird a long time ago. It only causes more problems.. I try to look attractive, but other than that I could care less about what people think when they see me.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

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#113273 - 07/18/05 10:03 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Old_Pig]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

It's not "bullshit", it's "life" and it's highest law is "survival of the fittest".




Yes that is life and we have to deal with it. However, acting like a common street thug is not survival of the fittest in my opinion. Starting fights with people just because you don't agree with thier beliefs or you don't like the way they look is just weakness and ignorance. So is robbing people because you don't have the ambition, skills or intelligence to get a job. Which is why common street thugs will always remain lower life forms.

I am proud of who I am and I've worn my Baphomet out in public. However, I'm reasonable and smart enough not to let counter-productive pride cloud my judgement in certain situations. There is a time and a place for everything. I wouldn't wear my Baphomet to a job interview or in a hostile environment that would bring negative attention to myself. Does that make me less of a Satanist? NO, it doesn't. It's lesser magic. And I think that was Danny Romano's mistake. He lacked good judgement and lesser magic. I don't think he deserved a blow to the head for it though. There are too many other lower life forms on this planet that deserve that.


Edited by Carkosa (07/18/05 10:13 PM)

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#113274 - 07/18/05 10:47 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Carkosa]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
I never said it was right. I just said it was real.

That's the reality of life. You go out and you can find yourself in a violent situation (deserved or undeserved) so you better be prepared to fight for your survival.

In the case of the guy with his dyed hair and inverted cross, he attracted the attention of the wrong crowd.

I don't approve the idiot's who attacked him, they certainly deserve a harder punishment than they got. But I don’t have any sympathy for the "victim" either. He collected the fruit of his stupidity
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#113275 - 07/19/05 12:12 PM Re: Stupid. stupid, STUPID. [Re: TheAbyss]
Raf_G Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Central America
I don´t see why "he was asking for it". Some people just feel good wearing an upside down cross. It does not mean much for me, personally, but I don´t mind if someone wears one or if someone finds some kind of pleasure from wearing or using it. And that does not mean you are playing inverse christianism necessarily.

But that is just my opinion...

Hail Yourself!!
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Hail Yourself!!

Hail Satan!!!

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#113276 - 07/19/05 12:14 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Old_Pig]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
I think it's both.

Yes, it is bullshit. So many of the things humans do to assault one another are needless, pointless, and utterly uncalled for---that is, bullshit. Many people in society--myself included--manage to restrain any desires they may have to kill, maim, or rob others, so self-restraint is not some nebulous, unattainable goal. Most humans are certainly capable of even marginally better behavior, so we should not become so jaded or cynical that we lose sight of that fact and that standard.

But, it's also a fact of life. Calling it "bullshit" will not make it clear up or go away, and if you're the one being attacked, labeling the event as "bullshit" isn't going to do you a lot of good there. So, you have to buckle down and prepare for the bullshit, and realize that just because it's dumb or bad or irrational doesn't make it less real or imminent.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#113277 - 07/19/05 02:45 PM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime?? [Re: TR966]
Remorazz Offline


Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 301
Loc: Ontario, Canada
After reading all responses, I truly believe that justice was not served, like LeviathanXIII said "They should of gotten prison time". Agent Malebranche says: “Several law enforcement officials acknowledged the fact that Satanism is a valid religion protected like any other.” I whole-heartedly agree, but was this a “hate crime”?

If I was to call some fat guy on the street Buddha then beat him-up would this be considered “hate crime”, most likely not. Should prison time be give to me, hell yes, it was after all an assault…

Mister White said it best: “I don't care if he was a Church of Satan member or not even a Pseudo-Satanist, what happened is socially reprehensible.”

“Justice-for-all” , Let punishment fit the crime… They assaulted, let’em get assaulted in prison…



That is all.
_________________________
HS! G We have wasted far too much time explaining that Satanism has nothing to do with kidnapping, drug abuse, child molestation, animal or child sacrifice , or any number of other acts that idiots, hysterics or opportunists would like to credit us with. By Anton Szandor LaVey ©1988 PENTAGONAL REVISIONISM: A FIVE-POINT PROGRAM ~Special Thanks to: Agent Jack Malebranche for his permission to use his art in my avatar.~ SETI Combat Camera Cool Products

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#113279 - 07/20/05 05:55 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: ]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
Quote:

This is not about whether or not someone 'deserved' anything. There's not some kind of universal karma out there we can thank for making this happen, so why must we feel satisfied when others suffer, even if they are idiots?




Okay. Not "just desserts". Not karma.

Predicable and cliche`.

And why do idiots deserve to be protected from their stupidity? And why should I not laugh when they do dumb things and get hurt?

Quote:

What this is, is an example showing that people who a) dress goth or b) publicly affirm their belief in satanism become subjects of violence. Furthermore, it shows an example of how people would be leniant on such shocking behaviour.




Well, I happen to think that this shows, "If you go around pissing off Christians they will eventually try and kick the shit out of you."

I think Mr. Romano learned this lesson the Hard Way.

Quote:

Furthermore, you justify it by calling him weak. First off, they came from behind him. Secondly, they outnumbered him. Thirdly, they had weapons. You may believe yourself to be beyond such factors, but that doesn't mean we should require it. Bigots have access to martial arts as well, so don't believe that you'll automatically outmatch any people who are against you.




Well. You have you facts wrong. And I quote the original article.

"Prosecutors said that on January 9 at about 2:30 p.m., the defendants called out "Hey, Satan," to Romano from a car before getting out and beating him with an ice scraper and metal pipe."

Doesn't mean "we" should require it? What's this "we" noise again? You have a mouse in your pocket?

Lex Talionis. Fang and Claw. Give me a break. You try telling a lion to rip out it's teeth and claws because it "shouldn't need them.". Bullshit.

I personally take a keen interest in my personal protection. I grew up in a "rough" neighborhood. I was the one white kid on the big bad black block in the middle of the crack district. No need to lecture me on martial arts and thugs, I've seen my share, taken my licks, earned my respect, gotten the stiches too. And I can say that it's better to be prepared and knowledgeable than ignorant and vulnerable.

Mr. Romano was not just a weakling, he was ignorant and deliberately made himself vulnerable. From all accounts it sounds like he didn't even try and fight back. Or run for that matter. I can respect someone that runs and tries to fight back. These goons gave him a warning, got out of the car, and then beat him up. Please.

Quote:

Making a joke about his clogs? I realize you're just doing this to emphasize your disdain for the gothic culture, but give me a damn break here. Some people like to dress up, for social or expressive reasons, whatever, but you can't condemn them for it.




Yes. I disdain "Goth". This is no secret. But calling it culture makes me want to vomit. Scottish tartan is culture. Silk kimono is culture. "Goth" is some crap served up by media overlords for kids to silently rebel and declare their uniqueness by looking like one another. It's crap, not culture. As it is my opinion to not like "Goth, Hip-Hop, Redneck, etc sterotype.". I condemn Mr. Romano's misuse of Lesser Magic, using it to anger people, and then at the same time he was not prepared to deal with that anger. I think this is irresponsible.

Quote:

You should not HAVE to dress like you're expecting a street fight when you're not actively initating them.




But examine what happens to people that single themselves out? When is it advantageous to broadcast your diabolical affiliations and when is it not? Clearly, it worked to Mr. Romano's detriment, so he has no sympathy from me.

Deliberately wearing a "Cosmic Kick-Me Sign" and then crying when someone kicks you is stupid.

Quote:

One might choose to do so, but it's nice to think that you could maybe where a cape every now and then without having to worry about whether or not it might impede your retreat from people trying to impale you with knives.




Yes. It would be nice to live in such an imaginary world where you can dress as inflammitorily as you want and not have to suffer the potential consequenses of such actions.

It would be nice to walk around nude with "Say you love Satan!" drawn in black grease paint on my chest. (Halloween costume idea?) But I don't live in that perfect world and I can reasonably expect that the local law enforcement will haul my ass away to jail for violating laws based on Christian "morals". I could also reasonably expect that I would be singled out in this community and perhaps get the shit kicked out of me for being a creepy weirdo. And I can then expect to be meted out a dilute version of Law and Order (The U.S. doesn't have a Justice system), in a courtroom of a Christian dominated government, should I declare that I'm a card-carry Satanist. Woe betied me if I LIE and say that I'm a affiliated and I'm not, because just like Mr. Romano, I could also reasonably expect H.P Gilmore (Or an Agent of the Church of Satan) would be forced disavow any knowlwedge of my stated affilation. Why? Because I didn't pay up, and put down with that set, and put my money where my big, loud, embarrassing, mouth was.

So tell me why is it such a stretch of the imagination to think that it's stupid and irresponsible to do the following?

1) Dress up to deliberatly infuriate and alienate Christians.
2) Wear an inverted cross.
3) Advertise that you're the sworn enemy of Christians
4) Cry about it to the media when two of them beat you up.
5) Lie to the media about being an affiliated member of the CoS.
6) Force the High Priest himself to publicly deny affiliation, and as a result hurt your case in court.

This whole thing is dumb and stupid on so many levels. I'm done here.

End of line.



Edited by Felstorm (07/20/05 06:03 AM)

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#113280 - 07/20/05 06:18 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: ]
redgriffin Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 211
Quote:

it's nice to think that you could maybe where a cape every now and then without having to worry about whether or not it might impede your retreat from people trying to impale you with knives.




Apparently you haven't been made aware of the dangers of capes. I suggest watching "The Incredibles" as reference material

In all seriousness, someone who has an ounce of street smarts doesn't wear get-ups that will impede with a street fight, or getting away from one for that matter. Lets also not forget that he may have owed the young thugs money, in which case he brought it on himself. Does that justify getting assaulted? Absolutely not. Could he have avoided the situation by being more discreet or not associating with cons-to-be? Very likely. I think the real issue at hand is niether his fighting prowess nor his personal choice of dress. It's that he is dragging the name of the Church of Satan into his legal matters when he isn't a member, much less a representative. Who cares whether he dresses like a goth, a rivet head, or a fucking cowboy with a pink hat and belt buckle for that matter? He IS NOT A MEMBER , and therefore should not claim to be, much less drag this organization into his personal issues. Bottom line.

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#113281 - 07/20/05 08:26 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: ]
Powaqqatsi Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 396
Loc: Hungary
Quote:

Furthermore, you justify it by calling him weak. First off, they came from behind him. Secondly, they outnumbered him. Thirdly, they had weapons.



I would like to point out that being "weak" is not a universal standard.

The one who loses a fight is weak. Batman may be the strongest among men, but compared to Superman, he is weak.

Please note that I'm not only talking about physical weakness or strength, as the outcome of any situation is composed of several factors.

If I am so stupid that I want to play the Bad Guy in an enemy territory then I must be prepared for anything. I should have eyes on my back, and I shouldn't go alone or without weapons. And finally, I shouldn't be surprised when I end up in jail or in a coffin (where I would belong then) if I wasn't more powerful than everyone else in the world.

The weak must perish.

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#113282 - 07/20/05 09:48 AM Re: "Satainst" attacked = Hate Crime [Re: Felstorm]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
felstorm... well I agree somewhat. That type of reasoning can be extended to all kinds of things, how many times has a rapist said she was 'asking for it' by dressing a certain way?

I think the only thing that made him assault worthy is the fact that he was alone and couldnt defend himself. I am sure these assholes would have assaulted someone else if this guy wasnt around. Im sure they got some extra jollies off of the way he dressed, but I doubt it adds up to little more than that.

I understand that its stupid to piss other people off deliberatley, but I dont think simply exsisting and looking a certain way is grounds enough to hurt anyone. Its not like he was yelling at people entering church, he was just living.
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One stupid post too many.

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#113285 - 07/20/05 11:55 AM Re: REALITY BITES [Re: ]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

Quote:

I understand that its stupid to piss other people off deliberatley, but I dont think simply exsisting and looking a certain way is grounds enough to hurt anyone. Its not like he was yelling at people entering church, he was just living.




You are missing the point.

YES, it is "morally" repugnant that people stand the chance of getting assaulted for dressing a certain way, and whathave you...

BUT what is "morally" "right" is not the REALITY.

The reality is you CAN get assaulted for presenting yourself in a certain way. That is why Satanists, instead of bemoaning the fact that such a thing is unfair, ADAPT.

Those who ignore this fact, tend to pay the consequences. Those consequences are not always pleasant, and for the most part, could have been avoided had reality been aknowleged.




ack. You did not quote the part that would answer the questions you raised.

I believe looks have little to do with it.He was simply exsisting, so I tend to think that they would just fuck with someone else eventually, and if they didnt hate one type of 'freak' they would hate another. I maintain that the perps would have gotten in the same kind of trouble if this guy wasnt around.

I am not complaining that its unfair, and I choose to look quite normal actually. Im not talking about what people 'deserve' or whats morally 'right', I am just pointing out the fact that they beat someone who did nothing to them, so its pretty likely that they would have done it to someone else anyway.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

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#113286 - 07/20/05 01:22 PM Re: REALITY BITES [Re: ]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:

The reality is you CAN get assaulted for presenting yourself in a certain way. That is why Satanists, instead of bemoaning the fact that such a thing is unfair, ADAPT.




This reminds me of something they used to beat into our heads in the marine corps, "Adapt and overcome". This kids failure was in not being able to adapt. He didn't adapt by changing his appearance to avoid unwanted attention, he didn't adapt by learning how to kick major ass after making that choice, and he didn't adapt when he failed to run when an obvious beating was coming. I lived the first 13 years of my life in Los Angeles. If you live in a city long enough and your smart, you can see the signs of imminent danger long before the wolves set upon you. This kid was stupid, and his stupidity resulted in assault. Doesn't make it any more legal, it’s just a fact. Ravenhael has accurately described this kids failure.

Quote:

Nah, I'm saying there are times when one should be able to comfortably retract the claws. Everyone should learn self defense, but you're implying that if a person can't take out two armed surprise attackers then he's an idiot? Like I said, bullies can take martial arts classes too, and usually have a lot more hands-on experience with fighting.




The kid isn’t an idiot because he can’t fight. He’s an idiot because the fight could have been avoided in several different ways, all of which were not utilized. Dare I say he wanted to be a victim, and this desire surfaced when he tried to use false affiliations and media attention to incite sympathy. Oh poor me, he yelled. His time would have been better spent planning his revenge, or better yet, planning to avoid such things in the future. But no. It was spent in complaint. That is his weakness and his stupidity.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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