Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#11324 - 08/30/03 12:18 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer]
Helena Offline


Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 548
Loc: Texas
I studied Latin for 8 years. In the phrase "Ave Satanas", the "Ave" is the second person singular imperative.

The usage of the word Satanas is both simple and complex. Satanas is an indeclinable word since it comes from the Hebrew word for adversary. When speaking one language and tossing in words from another, one does not decline the foreign word into one's own language. It would corrupt the word and its original use and meaning. For example if you were to use a word from a language other than English in the past tense - you would not use an -ed at the end of the word.

An interesting bit for any of you who are would like to know some history about how the word Satan came to mean what it does today to so many people. Satanas was a word used in the Greek New Testament quite frequently. Interestingly enough in each context it actually meant adversary, or some thwarting force of men or circumstance. It was used so frequently to mean this that people began to personify the word in later times to mean an actual physical adversary which was named Satanas or Satan.

So think for example if every time you said the phrase "oh shit" and if this was written in a historical text, what would people thousands of years from now think about that? Would they think that we prayed to this almightly thing, called "shit" and asked for respite when awful things happened upon us? Would they think that we thought by invoking this being's name saying "oh shit", an invocation used in the direst of circumstances, it would cease our problems and distress? Of course they would. And thus Satan was born.

HS!
Hecate


Edited by Hecate (09/01/03 06:02 PM)

Top
#11325 - 08/30/03 12:30 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Extremely interesting explanation. Thank you!

Top
#11326 - 08/30/03 04:15 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena]
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
Thanks for your explanation, M'am.
That was exactly, what I wanted to know.
_________________________
~ Suum cuique. ~

Top
#11327 - 08/31/03 06:51 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena]
Koerbagh Offline


Registered: 10/01/01
Posts: 76

Thanks for your interesting input, Lady Hecate. I would like to elaborate upon it, if I may!

First, I would say "Ave" is an imperative, not a vocative, since it is not a noun, but a verbal form (from the verb *[h]aveo).

Second, Satan was introduced in the Holy Bible in the Old Testament, not the New.

Third, Latin "Satanas" does not come from the Hebrew form of Satan, which is "Satan" (unvocalized: /s' - t. - n/) - not "Satanas", which is Greek. Latin "Satanas" therefore comes from the Greek "Satanas". In Greek, the Hebrew "Satan" was adapted as "Satanas", i.e., with a Greek ending. In Greek, "Satanas" is not indeclinable, whereas "Satan" is (Hebrew loan). In Latin, "Satan" is indeclinable (Hebrew loan), and "Satanas" may be indeclinable (Greek loan). Dr. LaVey uses this variant, i.e. Satanas as a Greek loan and indeclinable. However, truth be told, most often we find "Satanas" in Latin as declinable, using either the Latin or Greek declinations. This means Cicero would probably have dated his personal papers "Anno Satanae" instead of "Anno Satanas" ...
--A.K.

Top
#11328 - 09/01/03 11:38 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer]
Xerx Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/09/02
Posts: 656
Loc: Italy
Please note only Moderators and members of the Priesthood are allowed to reply to topics posted here. All other replies will be deleted.


Edited by MagisterParadise (03/14/05 12:39 PM)
_________________________
smile smile

Top
#11329 - 09/01/03 06:02 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Koerbagh]
Helena Offline


Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 548
Loc: Texas
Duh! The imperative is correct. I don't know why I typed "vocative". That certainly was a bleeding error. I must have been thinking about something else. You know what, I bet it was my fixation on the way Lars spelled vocative without an "e" on the end. It stuck in my mind for a bit there and must have really lodged itself there. I'm changing the original post now.

Your explanation of the word Satanas is interesting. Although I don't speak Hebrew and therefore have not read the Old Testament I wouldn't have any idea if it was in there or not. BUT my New Testament professor was and is a highly respected theologian and I respect his opinion that Satanas in Greek as it's used in the New Testament is indeclinable. It was during his lectures that I read a large portion of the New Testament in Greek. I am not a Biblical scholar and am frankly not too interested in it (note that I'd never even read the thing in english before I read it in Greek), but my professor's take on the subject was objective and therefore interesting to me at the time.

Interesting reply, though. Thanks for sharing!

HS!
Hecate

Top
#11330 - 09/02/03 12:55 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena]
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
I meanwhile noticed my "vocative" error, M'am.
Of course, Magister Koerbagh is right, it is an imperative. I would change this in my other post, too, but unfortunately, it is no longer changable.
Thanks to both of you for helping me on this.
_________________________
~ Suum cuique. ~

Top
#11331 - 09/02/03 10:08 AM Re: Lament of the Latin Student [Re: Nemo]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Your post made me remember this:

'Charlie was a chemist,
But Charlie is no more,
What Charlie thought was H2O,
Was H2SO4'

Sorry for the waste of time

Top
#11332 - 09/02/03 01:47 PM Correct Greek [Re: Helena]
Koerbagh Offline


Registered: 10/01/01
Posts: 76

Thanks for your reply, Lady Hecate. You've put things in perspective for me now.

One thing, though, your teacher may be a highly respected theologian and be of the opinion that Satanas in Greek as it's used in the New Testament is indeclinable, but I have here in front of me the New Testament in Greek and I just checked a famous passage:

Mark 3:23 "kai proskalesamenos autous en parabolais elegen autois pws dunatai satanas satanan ekballein" - "And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?"

Clearly, "Satanas" is NOT undeclinable, since we have the nominative "Satanas" versus the accusative "Satanan" here.

And this is just one example ... Oh well, who cares anyway.

Forgive me for my rattling your cage!
--A.K.

Top
#11333 - 09/02/03 10:23 PM Re: Correct Greek [Re: Koerbagh]
Helena Offline


Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 548
Loc: Texas
Wow, you really did your research! I stand corrected.

Thanks for taking the time to post!

HS!
Hecate

Top
#11334 - 09/04/03 09:41 PM Re: Lament of the Latin Student
Nogitsune Offline


Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 85
Loc: N. Region of the W. World
Please note only Moderators and members of the Priesthood are allowed to reply to topics posted here. All other replies will be deleted.


Edited by MagisterParadise (03/14/05 12:39 PM)
_________________________
Within the eye of the storm of conformity, creativity runs rampant. The key then, is to surround yourself with the shaven fools if one is to truly be free. -Nogi The death rate on Earth is: .... (computing) .... One per person.

Top
#11335 - 03/14/05 10:41 AM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Helena]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
Please note only Moderators and members of the Priesthood are allowed to reply to topics posted here. All other replies will be deleted.


Edited by MagisterParadise (03/14/05 12:40 PM)
_________________________
Art Site Updated.
<a href="http:nsprs.com" target="_blank">NSPRS.com.</a>
New Sample Gallery - Some Art For Sale

"A priest is one who harbors the ill and gives them faith because they fear death and they are weak."

Top
#11336 - 03/14/05 12:43 PM Re: Correct Latin [Re: Jack_Bauer]
MagisterParadise Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 3260
Loc: Burlington, VT
14 March XL A.S.

This is ridiculous, people...

ONE MORE TIME: Questions related to the Church of Satan (membership, website, officials, etc) - Please note only MODERATORS and MEMBERS of the PRIESTHOOD are allowed to reply to topics posted here. All other replies will be deleted.

Please follow the rules. Thank you.
_________________________
Ever Forward!
Magister Matt G. Paradise - Church of Satan

****** READ DIABOLOGUE OFTEN ******

Purging Talon | On Facebook | On SatanNet
Bearing The Devil's Mark @ Amazon | The Book of Satanic Quotations @ Amazon | Terror Transmission

--------------------
"The world isn't black and white. It's grayscale" - Steve Wozniak

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2


Forum Stats
12157 Members
73 Forums
43918 Topics
405735 Posts

Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
Advertisements