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#123577 - 09/25/05 04:34 PM Re: more on marriage [Re: Rattlesnake]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
Quote:

I'm not so sure about that. The family structure exists a great deal of time before the king's era came to be. Even since neolithic times, in those ancient tribes is where monogamy was instituted.




Monogamy is being spoken of here as if it were something natural. Nobody is really 100% monogamous, at most people are socially conditioned to be emotinally possessive and jealous of their lovers. This is often passed off as "monogamy". But it is often the case that humans in "civilised" society are not monogamous and often have several lovers, and constorts over their lifetimes.

"Monogamy" and the wedding ceremony we have today is the product of Christian ceremony. It is a recent invention in the course of human history. By all accounts "monogamy" was first instituted by rulers in Babylon, Chaldea, and Sumeria. This was early Copper/Bronze age. The kings had a harem, and to keep his chances of his genetic line on the throne, he forbade other men from having more than one wife.

Other rulers saw the power in forbidding other men to have more than one wife, so they followed suit. Nomadic tribes, to this day, still practice multiple marriage. City dwelling rulers had little control over wandering hunters. But in an agrarian society, city dwellers, social conditioning could be controlled far more easily. It really started to be enforced with the birth of the Holy Roman Empire under Constantine. Here the Church was granted much power and in the centuries to come they enforced "monogamy" onto everyone, even the rulers. Even in Asia and China, rulers there saw the power of enforcing monogamous laws unto their civillian populations. For one it kept population growth somewhat steady, and afforded the ruler the best chances at succession as the ruler was not restricted to one wife, and could have many concubines.

The formal ceremony of marriage was often saved for political advantage, a ruler would take a wife from perhaps another rival kingdom to secure peace or trade. These arranged marriages has little to do with love, and much more to do with business, power, and money. It was the lot of the concubine to be lover, mistress, and emotional consort. "Monogamy" and the marriage ceremony were birthed not as the result of neolithic human nature, but of social conditioning of Copper and Bronze age eras to control human nature as it went from largely tribal to a largely agrarian society. The most primitive of tribes in New Guinea, these neo-lithic wanderers often take multiple wives. As many as five or six.

Monogamy and marriage is a quaint idea that is perpetuated because it can be perpetuated. It's not that it actually works. 50% divorce rate speaks loads for the state of human nature and what actually happens between people.
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#123578 - 09/25/05 04:46 PM Re: more on marriage [Re: Felstorm]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Very well spoken Felstorm, you are indeed correct. To this day our rulers only pretend to monogamy as a means of political manipulation. And yet the rubes keep getting married.
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#123579 - 09/25/05 07:02 PM no marriage [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
ABZU Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Oregon
” MEN:

DO NOT GET MARRIED. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GIRLFRIEND SAYS. DO NOT SACRIFICE YOUR PERSONAL WELL BEING TO SATISFY HER WEDDING FANTASY.”


Applause…..

I agree. Another point I can add is just how nice and considerate your mate will stay if she / he knows you can pack a bag and walk out the door never to return. No strings attached. No lawyers. No contracts. No priests. No judges. Goodbye fuck you, have a nice life. The more trouble it is for you to leave someone, the more trouble they can put you through with impunity. And don’t think for one minute they don’t know it. The very second that ceremony is over legally, your mate will change. Even if it is on a purely internal level, deep down inside they know that the line which is not to be crossed has moved dramatically. No marriage No cry.

And just so no one thinks I am speaking hypothetically, I have been with the same woman for over seven years now. No rings required.
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"As I have stated, the paradox where more people are "talking" dark forces up, down, and sideways, but fewer than ever are actually living as night people, provokes speculation. The moral here is that when everybody's talking, very few are doing. More time is spent comparing notes with aficionados than in enjoying the hobby per se."
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#123580 - 09/25/05 07:24 PM Re: more on marriage [Re: Felstorm]
ABZU Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Oregon
As long as we are bringing up Mesopotamia;

According to the Hammurabi Law Code, marriage also had certain legal implications and rights. One such right (see 129) was throwing your wife to the crocodiles if she was unfaithful. I don’t suppose women would be so excited about marriage if this was still the case.
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Warlock ABZU

Church of Satan

"As I have stated, the paradox where more people are "talking" dark forces up, down, and sideways, but fewer than ever are actually living as night people, provokes speculation. The moral here is that when everybody's talking, very few are doing. More time is spent comparing notes with aficionados than in enjoying the hobby per se."
A.S.L. / T.D.N.

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#123581 - 09/25/05 09:25 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
Quote:


DO NOT GET MARRIED. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GIRLFRIEND SAYS. DO NOT SACRIFICE YOUR PERSONAL WELL BEING TO SATISFY HER WEDDING FANTASY.




Its not just men that have to look out, its the women. Men change after too. The romance leaves and they lose the sense of "trying" because they have her for keeps. Merriage is over rated. I have told every partner I have ever had that I do not ever want to get merried and every one of them thought they could convince me otherwise and proposed.
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#123582 - 09/25/05 11:09 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
Maninblack Offline


Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Garland, Texas
Being that, in the final analysis, it's about money anyway, we should change the terminology from "Engaged to be married" to "Have chosen to incorporate". Gender is of no matter then.
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#123583 - 09/25/05 11:37 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Citizen_HHG Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 411
Loc: the Netherlands
Quote:

MEN:

DO NOT GET MARRIED. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GIRLFRIEND SAYS. DO NOT SACRIFICE YOUR PERSONAL WELL BEING TO SATISFY HER WEDDING FANTASY.




I fully agree Warlock Agt_Malebranche
Very wise words indeed


Edited by Citizen_HHG (09/25/05 11:39 PM)
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#123585 - 09/25/05 11:40 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: tovasshi]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
>>Merriage is over rated. I have told every partner
>>I have ever had that I do not ever want to get merried

I don't think being merry is overrated. Though marriage certainly is.
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#123586 - 09/25/05 11:59 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Quaark]
Maninblack Offline


Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Garland, Texas
That ices the cake in a delicious way!! Excellent!
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Hoisting the Chalice, In the Name of Satan!! Man In Black "Sensitive souls have reacted with shock to the elemental drama of life on this planet, and one of the reasons Darwin so shocked his time - and still bothers ours is that he showed this bone-crushing, blood-drinking drama in all of its elementality and necessity: Life cannot go on without the mutual devouring of organisms...each organism raises its head over a field of corpses, smiles into the sun, and declares life good." Ernest Becker, "Escape From Evil" "I often write about the fact that everything here in the universe seems to eat and get eaten, and we need to pay attention to this. The idea of the Eucharist is that when divinity passes through this universe, it, too, gets eaten." Matthew Fox (Psychology Today, Sept./Oct.,1993)

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#123587 - 09/26/05 12:24 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Bill_M]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
Thanks for the correct spelling. I grew up using MS word and never learned how to properly spell. I recently decided to avoid anything with auto correct so I can fix the problem.
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#123588 - 09/26/05 12:37 AM Hail Henny Youngman [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
I'll be yet another person to quote and respond to this:

>>DO NOT GET MARRIED. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, NO MATTER WHAT
>>YOUR GIRLFRIEND SAYS

I don't see what's inherantly wrong with two people that want to use ceremony to mark their union (i.e., a wedding), and then additionally choose to have a life-long identity as "husband" and "wife". Though why it necessarily has to be legal, is another question. There are certain benefits if a spouse is killed in the military or wants his or her job benefits to cover the other spouse, but as far as I can tell the legal benefits don't seem TOO great for the average Joe & Jane. Actually, this general need people have to get married begs a LOT of questions.

Is marriage necessary to start a family? I've seen people who become parents (even planned as so) without getting married, and plenty of married couples who don't want children. Necessary for sex? Yeah, right! In fact, it's considered almost silly these days to marry somebody without having a clue how he or she is in bed first.

Likewise, one of the big double standards I see with marriage is this: a guy who doesn't get married is scorned as "fearing commitment", whereas a woman who doesn't get married is praised as being "independent". Seems to me, though, that a man who has been staying with the same woman for 5 years hardly has a fear of commitment!

I totally agree on this being a woman's thing. Too many women have it drilled into their head that they must get married, as if it validates their lives and proves their worth to others (which needless to say is unsatanic). They constantly get this idea from bullshit entertainment media, and nagging relatives, co-workers, and so-called friends. I don't see nearly as many men being pressured by their peers into getting married. I swear that some women get married just for the sake of having a $10,000 wedding. I'd like to see how they'd respond to one of these neo-Pagan year-and-a-day handfastings, where like a magazine subscription, the couple has the option at the end of the period of canceling their marriage or renewing it. Despite the potential of getting a wedding every year out of the deal, I imagine power-hungry bitches wouldn't be interested, despite having no real reason that they're willing to admit.
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New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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#123589 - 09/26/05 12:55 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
matt_valade Offline


Registered: 09/21/05
Posts: 1
Seeing how satanism promotes sexual freedom, then no one who calls themselves a satanist has the right to bash gays...The gays arent hurting anyone else if two men or two woman merry each other, it is their own sexual freedom...the only reason why gay-marriage is illegal is becasue it is against "god's law" and we live in a society whcih bases their laws on christianity, seeing how god is brought up in the decloraton of independencem, this is the only reason why gay-marriage is, or once was illegal and the protesting christians can fuck right off, becasue not everyone in the world is willing to demote themselves to being slaves under the christian/catholic (same bull-shit) church.

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#123590 - 09/26/05 01:18 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Maya Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 1447
Loc: New England
I myself have been looked at like a deranged pink elephant more than once for declaring the conventional wedding to be just plain stupid. That is because I am a woman, and others, both male and female, expect me to go weak at the knees at the idea of a wedding. I've always thought conventional weddings to be a waste of money, not to mention a perfect example of misplaced values.

I honestly don't care if it's called "marriage" or "civil union". It should be viewed in a secular light, a legal bond between two people of any sex. I agree that the current idea of marriage is both antiquated (and not in the good way) and sickeningly steeped in religion.

On the subject of homosexuals and homophobes, I think that it's pretty obvious that a homophobe's fear of homosexuals stems from his/her own fear of him/herself and self-loathing.

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#123591 - 09/26/05 01:47 AM Re: Hail Henny Youngman [Re: Bill_M]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Quote:

I don't see what's inherantly wrong with two people that want to use ceremony to mark their union (i.e., a wedding), and then additionally choose to have a life-long identity as "husband" and "wife".




Nothing wrong with that at all.

Quote:

Though why it necessarily has to be legal, is another question.




THAT is what I was referring to. Too many men get taken to the cleaners by women. This is changing, I think, but in many places it is still the norm to force an accomplished man to continue to support a woman who has done nothing but shop for her whole life. My point was that guys seem to become 'blinded by love' and stop considering the legal ramifications of divorce. While I don't see this happening, if my boyfriend and I broke up, we'd just need a Uhaul--not lawyers. Marriage provides some benefits if you do it once and it sticks...but I think most people seem to lose a fortune in the process of dissolving the errors of their youth.

Quote:

Too many women have it drilled into their head that they must get married, as if it validates their lives and proves their worth to others (which needless to say is unsatanic). They constantly get this idea from bullshit entertainment media, and nagging relatives, co-workers, and so-called friends.




I agree completely. It's like a cult or something. I couldn't tell a diamond from a cubic zirconium(sp?) if my life depended on it...but it's practically an inborn trait in women at this point. And I haven't met a woman who hasn't dreamed up multiple scenarios and outfits for her 'perfect wedding.'


Quote:

I swear that some women get married just for the sake of having a $10,000 wedding.




Seriously. And that's if they're cheap.

Quote:

I'd like to see how they'd respond to one of these neo-Pagan year-and-a-day handfastings, where like a magazine subscription, the couple has the option at the end of the period of canceling their marriage or renewing it.




Sounds completely gay, but I like the concept. It emphasizes choice.

People who are in good relationships, in my experience, actively choose to be together.

Quote:

Despite the potential of getting a wedding every year out of the deal, I imagine power-hungry bitches wouldn't be interested, despite having no real reason that they're willing to admit.




If someone slapped a goodguy badge on it, or their favorite Hollywood stars did it, I'm sure it would be all the rage. Weddings are generally about conforming to tradition, about what is and is not 'appropriate' or 'tastefull.' Everyone tries to put their own spin on them, but most are fairly cookie-cutter affairs, despite the tense decisions about which napkins and invitations are better.

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#123592 - 09/26/05 08:13 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Quote:

Quote:

Honest answer...I think some people think same sex marriage trivializes marriage.




And meanwhile, being married by an Elvis impersonator in a 24hr wedding chapel= sanctity.

These people are fools.




Yep! I didn't hear any accusations against Britney Spear's drunken marriage, other than the fact she did something stupid. Now, when Betty and Sue got married the same week they were legal...illegal...legal...oops, illegal again.
It's all about the sanctitiy.
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