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#123547 - 09/24/05 05:14 PM gay marriage
Krupa Offline


Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Rockland County, NY
yesterday i overheard people in the local 7-11 debating gay marriage. it wasn't really a debate because no one was speaking in their defense, they were just bashing gays. i diden't feel like wasting my time with these idiots so i just left the store
but it got me thinking, why is this even an issue. in a country where people should be free, and all the shit about oil, bush and his war, bla bla bla. why would anyone care who marries who.
one observation, not to my suprise, they were all wearing a cross, a symbol of incompitance and ignorance.

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#123548 - 09/24/05 05:21 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
As a homosexual, I find it increasingly difficult to justify the idea of any marriage and not just gay marriage. In my opinion, marriage should be a contract between any two people and it should be left at that. There should be no religion behind it, no "magic moments" and certainly no perks outside of sharing resources legally.

Of course, that's just me. I'm sure there are some gays and lesbians that still want the white wedding.
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"Suppose you threw a love affair and nobody came?" - Lorrie Moore, "How to Become a Writer"

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#123549 - 09/24/05 05:25 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Honest answer...I think some people think same sex marriage trivializes marriage. It goes like this..."How can my marriage be holy or important if anyone can do it?"
It's pretty messed up, but I think that's pretty much what it is.

It is the same with race in the 1950's. "How can drinking from that water fountain be important if anyone...inluding one of those...can drink from it?"
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#123550 - 09/24/05 05:27 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Phenylalanine]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Quote:

In my opinion, marriage should be a contract between any two people and it should be left at that. There should be no religion behind it, no "magic moments" and certainly no perks outside of sharing resources legally.






Yes...and may I add that the contract should be temporary, extendable if both parties are in agreement?

Welcome to the board, by the way.
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#123551 - 09/24/05 05:42 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
As I tend to see it, homosexuals frighten many people because they constitute a nonconforming "other," and to boot, an other whose "otherness" is primarily defined by and interlaced in sex and gender , a pair of often complex, uncomfortable, and taboo topics. Many homophobes aren't even too sure about their own sex lives and the "strength" of their own genders, so of course gay people scare them, especially since gay people often seem to be having a lot of fun flaunting their disregard for traditional boundaries and taboos.

Besides that, many people think that people will only fulfill their social obligations and fit into their social roles if they are absolutely forced to do so. Gay people mix up the boundaries and mess up the roles, so those folks reason that if we tip our hats to gays, eventually, no one will want to fulfill the social duties of husband, wife, child, father, mother, man, or woman, and society will collapse. Irrational? Yes. An actual concern people often hold? Yes.
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#123552 - 09/24/05 06:29 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Krupa Offline


Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Rockland County, NY
thats the same way my wife and i agreed. you are indeed a very intelligent person.

and thank you for welcome
i am glad i came to this board

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#123553 - 09/24/05 06:34 PM Beating a fossilized horse corpse to dust... [Re: Krupa]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
The topic of Gay Marriage keeps popping up on this board from time to time.

My question is: What does this have to do with Satanism? Do you think because the Christians oppose something, that means Satanists should automatically be in favor?

Satanism is a religion of Individualism and I'm sure each Satanist has his own personal opinion on this topic.

i diden't feel like wasting my time with these idiots so i just left the store

In that case, why did you bring the discussion here? Is our time even less valuable?
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#123554 - 09/24/05 06:37 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
I like that idea, actually. No more "Till death do you part". Well, you know what I mean.

Thank you!
_________________________
"Suppose you threw a love affair and nobody came?" - Lorrie Moore, "How to Become a Writer"

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#123555 - 09/24/05 06:41 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Phenylalanine]
Powaqqatsi Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 396
Loc: Hungary
Quote:

marriage should be a contract between any two people



Why only two people? What if I want to marry three girls and one or two of them is already a wife of someone else, and we all decide that we would like to live together as a really big, happy family?

The issue is I think that the common people doesn't know what a marriage is. It is just a custom for them. "It is the way it always been", they think. It's just another goodguy-badge for them to show how normal they are.

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#123556 - 09/24/05 07:16 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
ghostgirl Offline


Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 50
Loc: Orlando... FL
It is the never ending morality... the brainwashed victims of christianity... Does it make any difference to them personally if gay people want to get married?? Will it harm them in any way?? Of course not. They want to be heard voicing the moral opinion of thier society. It makes them feel... normal. Its familiar and much easier to just agree. They would all jump off a cliff if the moral majority and thier God thought that was the 'right' way..... ghostgirl
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#123557 - 09/24/05 07:39 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
Citizen Jonesy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/22/02
Posts: 995
Loc: Palm Springs, California, USA
Because they want it to be an issue.

Just another reason for annoying people to be annoying.
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#123558 - 09/24/05 07:46 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Phenylalanine]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Quote:

As a homosexual, I find it increasingly difficult to justify the idea of any marriage and not just gay marriage. In my opinion, marriage should be a contract between any two people and it should be left at that.




...I like the sound of that.

Our High Priest has a slightly different take on this, here, but I personally find the whole marriage thing anachronistic. I think that if men were the only people involved in the equation, save for religious zealots, marriage would be no more binding than a domestic partnership arrangement. But ladies like weddings. The fact that I think something like two thirds of the same-sex couples in Massachusetts and Vermont (civil unions) that actually got married were female seems to add credence to this opinion. That's not to say that men don't enjoy and/or value their weddings, but, traditionally, it's been all about the girls.

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#123559 - 09/24/05 09:30 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Most of the time, people who talk like that just think gay sex is ICKY. It makes them UNCOMFORTABLE. Its pathetic, and they cant say they think it should be illegal because of that, but honestly I think thats the cause 90% of the time.
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#123560 - 09/24/05 10:02 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Powaqqatsi]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
Not that I haven't thought about that. Contracts between more than one person could be feasible.

But silliness aside, you're right; nothing says "Look, we're normal!" than having a man and woman together no matter how much they hate each other.
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#123561 - 09/25/05 01:39 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:

Honest answer...I think some people think same sex marriage trivializes marriage.




And meanwhile, being married by an Elvis impersonator in a 24hr wedding chapel= sanctity.

These people are fools.
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#123562 - 09/25/05 02:00 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
Why, of course that's sanctity! Whirlwind marriages of messed-up proportions are all over the Bible, and if it's in the Bible, it's fair game for any good ol' Protestant society!

Wow. I usually am not sarcastic. That was just such a good post.
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#123563 - 09/25/05 02:28 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: TrojZyr]
bianca Offline


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 142
Loc: Right where I should be.
Quote:

........ gay people often seem to be having a lot of fun flaunting their disregard for traditional boundaries and taboos.



Yes,many do,and I've heard many say they only want to go to Massachusetts and get married because they CAN. That attitude DOES trivialize marriage to sincere couples gay or straight.
Quote:


Gay people mix up the boundaries and mess up the roles, so those folks reason that if we tip our hats to gays, eventually, no one will want to fulfill the social duties of husband, wife, child, father, mother, man, or woman, and society will collapse. Irrational? Yes. An actual concern people often hold? Yes.



I for one,don't think it's irrational. For example, some birth certificates of children of married lesbian couples in Massachusetts are not being honoured because it's NOT biologically possible to have two mothers and no father, no matter whose marriage is legal or not. So what then will there be? Parent One and Parent Two, like their marriage certificates say Spouse A and Spouse B? If that's the case, then there are societal roles gone-no husband,no wife,no mother,no father. Whether this is "good" or "bad", I don't know. I certainly don't think it's beneficial to the child, and I can't wait to see how f'ed up this generation of experimental children are.
Marriage should be taken out of the juristiction of the state and be replaced across the board with civil unions for all. If someone then wants a religious marriage of some sort,let'em have it, and put this topic to an end.
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#123564 - 09/25/05 02:36 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: bianca]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
Some parts of your post made me think it was going someplace bizarre, but the resolution was something that made me smile.

You're absolutely right. Sociologically, it has to be considered. As soon as roles start to collapse, what will children learn? I hadn't thought too much about the process, but I imagine a step to the remedy involves removing the "mother" and "father" image from programming and replacing it with "nurturer" and "disciplinarian". Once those roles are re-patterened, it would then evolve into "egalitarian" and "authoritarian". Finished, I hope the pattern ends up as Parent A and Parent B.

That process would take a very long time, though, and this is pretty radical change for an extremely discriminated-against demographic.

I know; I'm there.

(Side note: Your signature made me laugh enormously.)
_________________________
"Suppose you threw a love affair and nobody came?" - Lorrie Moore, "How to Become a Writer"

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#123565 - 09/25/05 03:43 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
Quote:

Our High Priest has a slightly different take on this, here, but I personally find the whole marriage thing anachronistic. I think that if men were the only people involved in the equation, save for religious zealots, marriage would be no more binding than a domestic partnership arrangement. But ladies like weddings. The fact that I think something like two thirds of the same-sex couples in Massachusetts and Vermont (civil unions) that actually got married were female seems to add credence to this opinion. That's not to say that men don't enjoy and/or value their weddings, but, traditionally, it's been all about the girls.




Oh definately.

The "traditional" wedding we have today is the decendant of great big formal occaisons that kings and courtiers would have to proclaim publicly who their mate was. It was more about saying "This woman is mine and any children she has are my heirs". And of course they were rich, dressed their brides in lace and whatnot, threw big hoohows at the church so the gawkeyed commoners would spectate. And all the young women would swoon and fantisise about young princes doing the same thing for them, and this got passed down from generation and so on.

All of that appeals greatly to women, it's a terribly romantic thing to have a man go all out and blow wads of cash on a humongous wedding that gushes all kinds of Arthurian Camelot-goodieness.

There's an entire industry surrounding marriage, and wedding gowns and so on, for women. Ever see some of those catalogs of wedding clothing? Three quarters of them are loads of attire for brides and bridesmaids, and men get about three pages at the back for five or six styles of tuxedoes.

It's a girl-thang. I'll never understand it really, I just like getting dressed up and hang out at the receptions and pick up the bridesmaids and feel up the thighs of the pastors' daughters.
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#123566 - 09/25/05 03:56 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Felstorm]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
I work with two twentysomethig girls.

And let me tell ya, bitches know DIAMONDS. They are smart, practical girls, but it's amazing how tuned in they are to anything 'wedding.' One left work early the other day to go look at her sisters' wedding ring...

And speaking of Brides Magazine...

Isn't that a mighty paperweight?

It's like 2 inches thick.

We can't cancel marriage, just because it's a pointless, expensive anachronism. Think of the layoffs!

I have to say that, even though they should know better, I see a lot of young men getting completely screwed by this marriage deal. I find it amazing that employable women with college degress are still able to take men to the cleaners in divorce court. People look at marriage through rose colored glasses. I see relationships that could have ended with a Uhaul and a security deposit on a new place, but they end up becoming substantial financial burdens instead. It's really sad to watch.

MEN:

DO NOT GET MARRIED. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GIRLFRIEND SAYS. DO NOT SACRIFICE YOUR PERSONAL WELL BEING TO SATISFY HER WEDDING FANTASY.


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#123567 - 09/25/05 04:20 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Powaqqatsi Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 396
Loc: Hungary
Quote:

MEN:
DO NOT GET MARRIED. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GIRLFRIEND SAYS. DO NOT SACRIFICE YOUR PERSONAL WELL BEING TO SATISFY HER WEDDING FANTASY.



I don't necessarily agree with you on this.

Marriage itself is not bad, it's an extended ritual, and the sacrifice could be seen as a tradeoff for other pleasant things like having a slave. Of course it can make hell of any relationship when incompatible persons pretend that they belong together, when it's no longer an indulgence to be with the significant other(s).

But who has the time to seek the one (or more ) who is really in harmony with him, and who guarantees that they won't change over the years?

People don't have time to wait and don't have the energy to seek their mates, and of course don't have the courage and objectivity to admit "darling, it's over, goodbye". Many of those who are married feel that they invested too much into that relationship just to let it go to oblivion. So they suffer instead. It's their loss. But I don't think that marriage should be the scapegoat when the real problem is the good old stupidity.

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#123568 - 09/25/05 04:35 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Phenylalanine]
bianca Offline


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 142
Loc: Right where I should be.
Quote:

Sociologically, it has to be considered. As soon as roles start to collapse, what will children learn? I hadn't thought too much about the process, but I imagine a step to the remedy involves removing the "mother" and "father" image from programming and replacing it with "nurturer" and "disciplinarian". Once those roles are re-patterened, it would then evolve into "egalitarian" and "authoritarian". Finished, I hope the pattern ends up as Parent A and Parent B.





I really think you're on to something with your analysis/proposals. Now, HOW do we implement them? We must take over now, to ease then transition
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#123569 - 09/25/05 05:04 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
UmbraeNoctem Offline
Banned

Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 735
Loc: Barksdale AFB, Louisiana, USA
Quote:

MEN:

DO NOT GET MARRIED. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GIRLFRIEND SAYS. DO NOT SACRIFICE YOUR PERSONAL WELL BEING TO SATISFY HER WEDDING FANTASY.


From personal experience, I would fully agree.

On the note of gay marriage: I don't even think it needs to be an issue, it is such a waste of energy. If someone wants to get married, so be it, it is their life. There should be no debate.
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#123570 - 09/25/05 01:21 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Felstorm]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

Oh definately.

The "traditional" wedding we have today is the decendant of great big formal occaisons that kings and courtiers would have to proclaim publicly who their mate was. It was more about saying "This woman is mine and any children she has are my heirs". And of course they were rich, dressed their brides in lace and whatnot, threw big hoohows at the church so the gawkeyed commoners would spectate. And all the young women would swoon and fantisise about young princes doing the same thing for them, and this got passed down from generation and so on.

All of that appeals greatly to women, it's a terribly romantic thing to have a man go all out and blow wads of cash on a humongous wedding that gushes all kinds of Arthurian Camelot-goodieness.

There's an entire industry surrounding marriage, and wedding gowns and so on, for women. Ever see some of those catalogs of wedding clothing? Three quarters of them are loads of attire for brides and bridesmaids, and men get about three pages at the back for five or six styles of tuxedoes.

It's a girl-thang. I'll never understand it really, I just like getting dressed up and hang out at the receptions and pick up the bridesmaids and feel up the thighs of the pastors' daughters.




It's funny, the more things change the more they stay the same. Yes, it's a girl "thang". And yes, it is a huge industry. Like any other huge industry it is propagandized to make every little girl think she deserves the knight in shining armor, and the wedding to go with it. It begins at the earliest of ages with your pal and mine, Disney. (talk about Satanic) Fill little girls' heads with romance and prince charming, spoon feed this all throughout her formative years and when she is ripe for marriage she will want to spend thousands of dollars on HER wedding. No wonder it is more important to women. The problem is, they don't indoctrinate the men to be the knight in shining armor to go along with it. heh heh

On the wedding thing, I say take all that money you were going to spend on a wedding and have the biggest indulgence party you can imagine. (or smallest if you prefer) Invite all your friends to celebrate with you because you are happy that you have someone to share the moments of your life with.

On the marriage thing in general, I agree with Phenylalanine on this one. An agreement between consenting adults,(no matter how you want to intertwine those adults) in whatever way they want that agreement to read. Keep government and religion the Hell out of it. You want childern at some point in this union? Fine, I have seen some very well adjusted children from families of gay couples, poly couples, D/s couples, etc. etc. It is not whether the parents consist of one man and one woman, but how fucked up the parents are that are raising the children that dictates how they will turn out. IMHO.


Hail Satan!
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"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#123571 - 09/25/05 01:40 PM Re: more on marriage [Re: Felstorm]
Rattlesnake Offline


Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Yurop
Quote:

The "traditional" wedding we have today is the decendant of great big formal occaisons that kings and courtiers would have to proclaim publicly who their mate was. It was more about saying "This woman is mine and any children she has are my heirs". And of course they were rich, dressed their brides in lace and whatnot, threw big hoohows at the church so the gawkeyed commoners would spectate. And all the young women would swoon and fantisise about young princes doing the same thing for them, and this got passed down from generation and so on.





I'm not so sure about that. The family structure exists a great deal of time before the king's era came to be. Even since neolithic times, in those ancient tribes is where monogamy was instituted. When a man's stenght was essential for his survival, women being biologicaly weaker could not survive by themselves in that harsh environment, and needed a man's protection to make it through. Then men would protect their children too, and those early witches managed to get what they wanted from men. Paternal instinct is something non existing. At most, a man sees his son as a version of him and he wants him to succeed in life as some sort of mirror image of himself. But this happens today, because before monogamy was instituted men were in a fuck and go situation. Which suits me just fine, to say the least. Also matriarchy existed not because women were respected and those apes were fascinated by the miracle of birth as some romantic fools believe, but because no one really knew who the father of the children was, so women's bloodlines existed then, instead of men's nowadays. And in those days, bisexuality, bestiality, pedophilia were the rule. That is, if you survived long enough for sexual insticts to become activated.
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#123572 - 09/25/05 02:26 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
Barb Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 587
I think anyone who talks bad about homosexual people are just insecure with themselves, and so they need something to make themselves think there are people below them. Bashing gays is just an excuse for their own insecurity.

Also, what if THEY are gay and don’t want to accept it, so they take it out on others?

I respect all orientations. Everyone’s sexual preferences are their own, and there is nothing wrong with being homosexual. I am generally straight, but I respect homosexuals just as much.

Weddings are definitely a girl thing. However, if I ever get married, I don’t think I will want anything big. Something small would be nicer, and I wouldn’t want to get all stressed out about it, since I DO have a life. Also, instead of having the pastor read bible verses, I’ll have him read us some classic poetry or something dramatic and secular. I’ll probably write some poetry of my own that I’d want him to read aloud.
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#123573 - 09/25/05 03:27 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: bianca]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
........ gay people often seem to be having a lot of fun flaunting their disregard for traditional boundaries and taboos.


Yes,many do,and I've heard many say they only want to go to Massachusetts and get married because they CAN. That attitude DOES trivialize marriage to sincere couples gay or straight.


Yes, it does trivialize it. But, I was addressing the matter of "why people are bothered by gay marriage." And, thinking gays are having more fun than them while casting off social norms is one of the reasons why people are bothered.

So what then will there be?

Well, pretty much the same thing there's been all along, with some more obvious, visible, seemingly "new", elements--straight marriages will still exist, single parents will still exist, gay marriages will become part of the social landscape, and both nonmarried straight and gay relationships will continue to exist. Parents, societies, and schools throughout time have had children encounter and endure situations much stranger and much more disconcerting and damaging, than same-sex parentage.
_________________________
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#123574 - 09/25/05 03:32 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: dragondancer]
Cholinergic Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 888
Loc: UK
Quote:


On the wedding thing, I say take all that money you were going to spend on a wedding and have the biggest indulgence party you can imagine. (or smallest if you prefer) Invite all your friends to celebrate with you because you are happy that you have someone to share the moments of your life with.





I'd just like to comment this is almost exactly what me and my wife done for our wedding - the ceremony itself was very simple (though we had 2 - the local registry office aren't very flexible in the wording of the ceremony so we performed our own symbolic one beforehand) and we celebrated the whole day afterwards.
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#123575 - 09/25/05 03:37 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: bianca]
Cholinergic Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 888
Loc: UK
Quote:


Yes,many do,and I've heard many say they only want to go to Massachusetts and get married because they CAN. That attitude DOES trivialize marriage to sincere couples gay or straight.





This entirely depends upon how one views marriage - if you view it as something to display to others then yes it becomes trivialised. But if you view it as (and this is what it should be) a declaration of partnership/love between consenting individuals then it shouldn't matter who else is getting married and how. Regardless of how many couples get married by elvis impersonators, on first dates or in other stupid ways - those who are truly sincere will still remain and their marriages shall remain intact so long as they keep it so.
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#123576 - 09/25/05 04:16 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: TrojZyr]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:

Parents, societies, and schools throughout time have had children encounter and endure situations much stranger and much more disconcerting and damaging, than same-sex parentage.




Yeah, give a little credit to our public schools!
_________________________
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#123577 - 09/25/05 04:34 PM Re: more on marriage [Re: Rattlesnake]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
Quote:

I'm not so sure about that. The family structure exists a great deal of time before the king's era came to be. Even since neolithic times, in those ancient tribes is where monogamy was instituted.




Monogamy is being spoken of here as if it were something natural. Nobody is really 100% monogamous, at most people are socially conditioned to be emotinally possessive and jealous of their lovers. This is often passed off as "monogamy". But it is often the case that humans in "civilised" society are not monogamous and often have several lovers, and constorts over their lifetimes.

"Monogamy" and the wedding ceremony we have today is the product of Christian ceremony. It is a recent invention in the course of human history. By all accounts "monogamy" was first instituted by rulers in Babylon, Chaldea, and Sumeria. This was early Copper/Bronze age. The kings had a harem, and to keep his chances of his genetic line on the throne, he forbade other men from having more than one wife.

Other rulers saw the power in forbidding other men to have more than one wife, so they followed suit. Nomadic tribes, to this day, still practice multiple marriage. City dwelling rulers had little control over wandering hunters. But in an agrarian society, city dwellers, social conditioning could be controlled far more easily. It really started to be enforced with the birth of the Holy Roman Empire under Constantine. Here the Church was granted much power and in the centuries to come they enforced "monogamy" onto everyone, even the rulers. Even in Asia and China, rulers there saw the power of enforcing monogamous laws unto their civillian populations. For one it kept population growth somewhat steady, and afforded the ruler the best chances at succession as the ruler was not restricted to one wife, and could have many concubines.

The formal ceremony of marriage was often saved for political advantage, a ruler would take a wife from perhaps another rival kingdom to secure peace or trade. These arranged marriages has little to do with love, and much more to do with business, power, and money. It was the lot of the concubine to be lover, mistress, and emotional consort. "Monogamy" and the marriage ceremony were birthed not as the result of neolithic human nature, but of social conditioning of Copper and Bronze age eras to control human nature as it went from largely tribal to a largely agrarian society. The most primitive of tribes in New Guinea, these neo-lithic wanderers often take multiple wives. As many as five or six.

Monogamy and marriage is a quaint idea that is perpetuated because it can be perpetuated. It's not that it actually works. 50% divorce rate speaks loads for the state of human nature and what actually happens between people.
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#123578 - 09/25/05 04:46 PM Re: more on marriage [Re: Felstorm]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Very well spoken Felstorm, you are indeed correct. To this day our rulers only pretend to monogamy as a means of political manipulation. And yet the rubes keep getting married.
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#123579 - 09/25/05 07:02 PM no marriage [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
ABZU Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Oregon
” MEN:

DO NOT GET MARRIED. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GIRLFRIEND SAYS. DO NOT SACRIFICE YOUR PERSONAL WELL BEING TO SATISFY HER WEDDING FANTASY.”


Applause…..

I agree. Another point I can add is just how nice and considerate your mate will stay if she / he knows you can pack a bag and walk out the door never to return. No strings attached. No lawyers. No contracts. No priests. No judges. Goodbye fuck you, have a nice life. The more trouble it is for you to leave someone, the more trouble they can put you through with impunity. And don’t think for one minute they don’t know it. The very second that ceremony is over legally, your mate will change. Even if it is on a purely internal level, deep down inside they know that the line which is not to be crossed has moved dramatically. No marriage No cry.

And just so no one thinks I am speaking hypothetically, I have been with the same woman for over seven years now. No rings required.
_________________________
Warlock ABZU

Church of Satan

"As I have stated, the paradox where more people are "talking" dark forces up, down, and sideways, but fewer than ever are actually living as night people, provokes speculation. The moral here is that when everybody's talking, very few are doing. More time is spent comparing notes with aficionados than in enjoying the hobby per se."
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#123580 - 09/25/05 07:24 PM Re: more on marriage [Re: Felstorm]
ABZU Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Oregon
As long as we are bringing up Mesopotamia;

According to the Hammurabi Law Code, marriage also had certain legal implications and rights. One such right (see 129) was throwing your wife to the crocodiles if she was unfaithful. I don’t suppose women would be so excited about marriage if this was still the case.
_________________________
Warlock ABZU

Church of Satan

"As I have stated, the paradox where more people are "talking" dark forces up, down, and sideways, but fewer than ever are actually living as night people, provokes speculation. The moral here is that when everybody's talking, very few are doing. More time is spent comparing notes with aficionados than in enjoying the hobby per se."
A.S.L. / T.D.N.

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#123581 - 09/25/05 09:25 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
Quote:


DO NOT GET MARRIED. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GIRLFRIEND SAYS. DO NOT SACRIFICE YOUR PERSONAL WELL BEING TO SATISFY HER WEDDING FANTASY.




Its not just men that have to look out, its the women. Men change after too. The romance leaves and they lose the sense of "trying" because they have her for keeps. Merriage is over rated. I have told every partner I have ever had that I do not ever want to get merried and every one of them thought they could convince me otherwise and proposed.
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#123582 - 09/25/05 11:09 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
Maninblack Offline


Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Garland, Texas
Being that, in the final analysis, it's about money anyway, we should change the terminology from "Engaged to be married" to "Have chosen to incorporate". Gender is of no matter then.
_________________________
Hoisting the Chalice, In the Name of Satan!! Man In Black "Sensitive souls have reacted with shock to the elemental drama of life on this planet, and one of the reasons Darwin so shocked his time - and still bothers ours is that he showed this bone-crushing, blood-drinking drama in all of its elementality and necessity: Life cannot go on without the mutual devouring of organisms...each organism raises its head over a field of corpses, smiles into the sun, and declares life good." Ernest Becker, "Escape From Evil" "I often write about the fact that everything here in the universe seems to eat and get eaten, and we need to pay attention to this. The idea of the Eucharist is that when divinity passes through this universe, it, too, gets eaten." Matthew Fox (Psychology Today, Sept./Oct.,1993)

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#123583 - 09/25/05 11:37 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Citizen_HHG Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 411
Loc: the Netherlands
Quote:

MEN:

DO NOT GET MARRIED. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GIRLFRIEND SAYS. DO NOT SACRIFICE YOUR PERSONAL WELL BEING TO SATISFY HER WEDDING FANTASY.




I fully agree Warlock Agt_Malebranche
Very wise words indeed


Edited by Citizen_HHG (09/25/05 11:39 PM)
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Citizen_HHG


www.churchofsatan.com
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#123585 - 09/25/05 11:40 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: tovasshi]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>Merriage is over rated. I have told every partner
>>I have ever had that I do not ever want to get merried

I don't think being merry is overrated. Though marriage certainly is.
_________________________
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#123586 - 09/25/05 11:59 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Quaark]
Maninblack Offline


Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Garland, Texas
That ices the cake in a delicious way!! Excellent!
_________________________
Hoisting the Chalice, In the Name of Satan!! Man In Black "Sensitive souls have reacted with shock to the elemental drama of life on this planet, and one of the reasons Darwin so shocked his time - and still bothers ours is that he showed this bone-crushing, blood-drinking drama in all of its elementality and necessity: Life cannot go on without the mutual devouring of organisms...each organism raises its head over a field of corpses, smiles into the sun, and declares life good." Ernest Becker, "Escape From Evil" "I often write about the fact that everything here in the universe seems to eat and get eaten, and we need to pay attention to this. The idea of the Eucharist is that when divinity passes through this universe, it, too, gets eaten." Matthew Fox (Psychology Today, Sept./Oct.,1993)

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#123587 - 09/26/05 12:24 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Bill_M]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
Thanks for the correct spelling. I grew up using MS word and never learned how to properly spell. I recently decided to avoid anything with auto correct so I can fix the problem.
_________________________
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#123588 - 09/26/05 12:37 AM Hail Henny Youngman [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
I'll be yet another person to quote and respond to this:

>>DO NOT GET MARRIED. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, NO MATTER WHAT
>>YOUR GIRLFRIEND SAYS

I don't see what's inherantly wrong with two people that want to use ceremony to mark their union (i.e., a wedding), and then additionally choose to have a life-long identity as "husband" and "wife". Though why it necessarily has to be legal, is another question. There are certain benefits if a spouse is killed in the military or wants his or her job benefits to cover the other spouse, but as far as I can tell the legal benefits don't seem TOO great for the average Joe & Jane. Actually, this general need people have to get married begs a LOT of questions.

Is marriage necessary to start a family? I've seen people who become parents (even planned as so) without getting married, and plenty of married couples who don't want children. Necessary for sex? Yeah, right! In fact, it's considered almost silly these days to marry somebody without having a clue how he or she is in bed first.

Likewise, one of the big double standards I see with marriage is this: a guy who doesn't get married is scorned as "fearing commitment", whereas a woman who doesn't get married is praised as being "independent". Seems to me, though, that a man who has been staying with the same woman for 5 years hardly has a fear of commitment!

I totally agree on this being a woman's thing. Too many women have it drilled into their head that they must get married, as if it validates their lives and proves their worth to others (which needless to say is unsatanic). They constantly get this idea from bullshit entertainment media, and nagging relatives, co-workers, and so-called friends. I don't see nearly as many men being pressured by their peers into getting married. I swear that some women get married just for the sake of having a $10,000 wedding. I'd like to see how they'd respond to one of these neo-Pagan year-and-a-day handfastings, where like a magazine subscription, the couple has the option at the end of the period of canceling their marriage or renewing it. Despite the potential of getting a wedding every year out of the deal, I imagine power-hungry bitches wouldn't be interested, despite having no real reason that they're willing to admit.
_________________________
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http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
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#123589 - 09/26/05 12:55 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
matt_valade Offline


Registered: 09/21/05
Posts: 1
Seeing how satanism promotes sexual freedom, then no one who calls themselves a satanist has the right to bash gays...The gays arent hurting anyone else if two men or two woman merry each other, it is their own sexual freedom...the only reason why gay-marriage is illegal is becasue it is against "god's law" and we live in a society whcih bases their laws on christianity, seeing how god is brought up in the decloraton of independencem, this is the only reason why gay-marriage is, or once was illegal and the protesting christians can fuck right off, becasue not everyone in the world is willing to demote themselves to being slaves under the christian/catholic (same bull-shit) church.

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#123590 - 09/26/05 01:18 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Maya Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 1447
Loc: New England
I myself have been looked at like a deranged pink elephant more than once for declaring the conventional wedding to be just plain stupid. That is because I am a woman, and others, both male and female, expect me to go weak at the knees at the idea of a wedding. I've always thought conventional weddings to be a waste of money, not to mention a perfect example of misplaced values.

I honestly don't care if it's called "marriage" or "civil union". It should be viewed in a secular light, a legal bond between two people of any sex. I agree that the current idea of marriage is both antiquated (and not in the good way) and sickeningly steeped in religion.

On the subject of homosexuals and homophobes, I think that it's pretty obvious that a homophobe's fear of homosexuals stems from his/her own fear of him/herself and self-loathing.

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#123591 - 09/26/05 01:47 AM Re: Hail Henny Youngman [Re: Bill_M]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Quote:

I don't see what's inherantly wrong with two people that want to use ceremony to mark their union (i.e., a wedding), and then additionally choose to have a life-long identity as "husband" and "wife".




Nothing wrong with that at all.

Quote:

Though why it necessarily has to be legal, is another question.




THAT is what I was referring to. Too many men get taken to the cleaners by women. This is changing, I think, but in many places it is still the norm to force an accomplished man to continue to support a woman who has done nothing but shop for her whole life. My point was that guys seem to become 'blinded by love' and stop considering the legal ramifications of divorce. While I don't see this happening, if my boyfriend and I broke up, we'd just need a Uhaul--not lawyers. Marriage provides some benefits if you do it once and it sticks...but I think most people seem to lose a fortune in the process of dissolving the errors of their youth.

Quote:

Too many women have it drilled into their head that they must get married, as if it validates their lives and proves their worth to others (which needless to say is unsatanic). They constantly get this idea from bullshit entertainment media, and nagging relatives, co-workers, and so-called friends.




I agree completely. It's like a cult or something. I couldn't tell a diamond from a cubic zirconium(sp?) if my life depended on it...but it's practically an inborn trait in women at this point. And I haven't met a woman who hasn't dreamed up multiple scenarios and outfits for her 'perfect wedding.'


Quote:

I swear that some women get married just for the sake of having a $10,000 wedding.




Seriously. And that's if they're cheap.

Quote:

I'd like to see how they'd respond to one of these neo-Pagan year-and-a-day handfastings, where like a magazine subscription, the couple has the option at the end of the period of canceling their marriage or renewing it.




Sounds completely gay, but I like the concept. It emphasizes choice.

People who are in good relationships, in my experience, actively choose to be together.

Quote:

Despite the potential of getting a wedding every year out of the deal, I imagine power-hungry bitches wouldn't be interested, despite having no real reason that they're willing to admit.




If someone slapped a goodguy badge on it, or their favorite Hollywood stars did it, I'm sure it would be all the rage. Weddings are generally about conforming to tradition, about what is and is not 'appropriate' or 'tastefull.' Everyone tries to put their own spin on them, but most are fairly cookie-cutter affairs, despite the tense decisions about which napkins and invitations are better.

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#123592 - 09/26/05 08:13 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Quote:

Quote:

Honest answer...I think some people think same sex marriage trivializes marriage.




And meanwhile, being married by an Elvis impersonator in a 24hr wedding chapel= sanctity.

These people are fools.




Yep! I didn't hear any accusations against Britney Spear's drunken marriage, other than the fact she did something stupid. Now, when Betty and Sue got married the same week they were legal...illegal...legal...oops, illegal again.
It's all about the sanctitiy.
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#123593 - 09/26/05 08:16 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: uncleherpe]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Quote:

Most of the time, people who talk like that just think gay sex is ICKY. It makes them UNCOMFORTABLE. Its pathetic, and they cant say they think it should be illegal because of that, but honestly I think thats the cause 90% of the time.




I think you are right. I know atheists who think same sex relationships are wrong. When I ask why...they just do. Something about "what is natural". The truth is, they are grossed out.
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#123594 - 09/26/05 11:44 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Quaark]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Aww, that's not exciting at all.

Meanwhile, the Yanomamo word for "marriage" means, quite literally, "to drag something away."
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#123595 - 09/26/05 01:50 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: matt_valade]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10129
This is well and good, but you must post an introduction in the correct forum before you proceed.
_________________________
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#123596 - 09/26/05 04:05 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Quaark]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
Ha! Never thought of that.

Praise semantics.
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#123597 - 09/26/05 04:13 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Felstorm]
Helliott Offline


Registered: 09/17/04
Posts: 217
Loc: VA
Quote:

It's a girl-thang. I'll never understand it really, I just like getting dressed up and hang out at the receptions and pick up the bridesmaids and feel up the thighs of the pastors' daughters.




Amen Felstrom! Personally I don't see the point of marriage. You can be just as commited to your significant other without the ring on your finger as you can with it. Since half of all marriages end in divorce anyway, it just adds a whole bunch of legal drama to go through even if you sign a pre-nup.

I think women just want to get married, and it doesn't really matter as much whom they get married To. They are the ones who say that "men are afraid of commitment, all my friends are doing it, when are we gonna get married" etc, etc, etc. It seems to me to be more like a case of keeping up with the joneses than wanting to be committed to a life partner. This is why it is the bride and her family who usually plan everything, sometimes years in advance, before the prospective groom even enters the picture!

For these reasons, I cannot at the present see myself getting married. If I do get married, it will be on my terms.

As far as gay marriage goes, I say let 'em. Why not?
_________________________
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#123598 - 09/26/05 07:04 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

The truth is, they are grossed out.



Or more likely homophobic in the first place. Afraid there might be some tendencies in themselves. That's where the real fear and "icky" comes from. If they scream "icky" loud enough they won't have to face their own real deep fantasies.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#123599 - 09/26/05 07:13 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: tovasshi]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

Thanks for the correct spelling. I grew up using MS word and never learned how to properly spell. I recently decided to avoid anything with auto correct so I can fix the problem.




Just as an aside, I find that a good old fashioned paperback dictionary works quite well. You get the added benefit of being able to read all the meanings of words while you learn how to spell them.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#123600 - 09/26/05 07:26 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: TrojZyr]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I feel that people should be able to marry whoever they want and as many people as they want. Who's business is it otherwise. However, the government would not allow such a tax break to occur or else would change existing laws.

I find the whole gay persona and life style to be nothing more than a social icon in itself. Yet I feel the same about the whole straight persona too. To many homosexuals actually fall into stereotypes simply because they allow themselves to be placed into those categories.

I can understand using those personas when it benefits you to do so, but why construct your life around it? You are not who you fuck. Your sexuality does not conclude your ethics and personalities. Why limit yourself to predisposed conditions?

Of course I am aware that many here already understand this. Just throwing the idea out there for the sake of discussion.

I grow tired of both heterosexuals and homosexuals flaunting their social standings.

So you have sex with someone, do you need an applause? Does the act of sex make you so much more superior and advanced as a human being? Nope, not one bit.

But of course I am just stating my opinion, and talk is cheap after all.
_________________________
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#123601 - 09/26/05 08:04 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: dragondancer]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
Funny enough, I don't own one. I do however have the Oxford's dictionary of Psychology. I can spell not so common words like gender dysphoria and hermeneutics, however I cannot spell every day words. I got it from my father, he can't for the life of him, spell 'bacon' correctly.
_________________________
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#123602 - 09/26/05 08:20 PM Re: Hail Henny Youngman [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:

I couldn't tell a diamond from a cubic zirconium(sp?) if my life depended on it...but it's practically an inborn trait in women at this point.




Too true, it takes a trained eye to pick out a cubic zirconia from a diamond. The easiest method is color. Most diamonds are not colorless, and have slight tinge of yellow or brown, where as cubic zirconia are colorless. This is the easiest method of telling them apart, unless the diamond in suspect is a perfect "D" on the diamond color grading scale. If you had a scale you could compare a cubic zirconia and a diamond and see that per karat, a cubic zirconia weighs about 75% more than diamond. A cubic zirconia's refraction index is also lower than a diamonds, which gives it that gaudy look. Also, if for some reason you had a thermal probe on you, you would easily be able to tell a diamond from a cubic zirconia, as diamond is one of the most efficient thermal conductors known, where as cubic zirconia is a thermal insulator. All in all though, a well trained eye can pick out one from the other pretty easily.

Bitches know there diamonds indeed.
_________________________
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#123603 - 09/27/05 01:18 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Discipline]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Nope, I think you're correct, of course.

At least to me, sex is a rather simple but profound matter, but it often gets turned into some grand affair or the whole and sum of a person's identity.
_________________________
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#123604 - 09/27/05 07:38 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
Baelosia Offline


Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 10
Loc: Texas, USA
My take on it is that the Xtians you saw are members of a cult that dictates Gay Marriage to be wrong. All of the closet homo Xtians who live with the torment of having to do as they're told and the desire to do what they want, are probably the most unfortunate of all to live under this sort of suggestion. The suggestion that enjoying their lives the way they want to is WRONG.
Okay, so there can be power in numbers and a fellowship of sorts gives people opportunity to have social strength. However, in the case of Xtianity, it seems to discourage the practice of free thought and opinion forming. These people have bonded in a union of stupidity where they all agree on certain issues, give their money to the cause, and in exchange they won't be punished after death for being such a numbnut.
I'd say the best way to deal with this type of mentality is to ignore it... let their preaching fall upon deaf ears. What can they do if you won't let them affect you?
Personally, I couldn't give two shits about whether or not gays are allowed to be married, because it's not a personal goal for me to form such a union with someone of the same sex.

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#123605 - 09/27/05 10:55 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:


MEN:

DO NOT GET MARRIED. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GIRLFRIEND SAYS. DO NOT SACRIFICE YOUR PERSONAL WELL BEING TO SATISFY HER WEDDING FANTASY.






I think this is a sad statement.

Since when does gender determine anything of that sort? I refuse to give advice based on gender alone, people come in all kinds of mixes of whats considered traditionally masculine and feminine.

I am actually semi disgusted with many of the posts in this thread. Things are way more complicated than "women like this... guys like that". Sure, there are very typical women and very typical men, but I dont think people are like that by nature.



Edited by uncleherpe (09/27/05 11:01 AM)
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

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#123606 - 09/27/05 11:26 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: bianca]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Quote:

I for one,don't think it's irrational. For example, some birth certificates of children of married lesbian couples in Massachusetts are not being honoured because it's NOT biologically possible to have two mothers and no father, no matter whose marriage is legal or not. So what then will there be? Parent One and Parent Two, like their marriage certificates say Spouse A and Spouse B? If that's the case, then there are societal roles gone-no husband,no wife,no mother,no father. Whether this is "good" or "bad", I don't know. I certainly don't think it's beneficial to the child, and I can't wait to see how f'ed up this generation of experimental children are.




"The duality of nauture" is bunk, anyway, so why not abolish titles like "husband/wife" and "mother/father"? I guess you can argue that the opposite of "hermaphrodite" is "androgynous", but when you look at the root-words of both terms, you discover that both words, essentially, mean the same thing, they're just used differently.

There's "carnivore" and "herbivore" but what's the opposite of "omnivore"? It's not "insectovore," I'll tell you that much. What's the opposite of cat? Non-cat? That can mean anything.

The Gay, Trans and Intersexed movements are valid because they give society a much needed wake-up call to the fact that the world is more than just binary code and black-and-white terminology — there are shades of grey, yes, but there are also colours. Hell, even binary has it's limits -- digital photos are "clearer" because they're in binary and binary makes them clearer because binary can't translate the natural fuzziness of analogue (and we see, speak and hear in analogue). We've reached a point in society where we can handle the fact that colours exist, but to admit it would break tradition and people like tradition because it is known and it is "safe" in its familiarity. To argue that tradition is right because it's tradition is a logical fallacy, which makes the argument WRONG (unless, of course, something honestly better can be presented).
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

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#123607 - 09/27/05 11:43 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Phenylalanine]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Quote:

As soon as roles start to collapse, what will children learn?




They'd learn that titles mean nothing without just actions behind them and they'd learn that biological sex means nothing more than what you pee with. Oh, what a horrible thought! Next the Communists will take over! Quick! Get Joe McCarthy and Jerry Falwell! Society as we know it is about to collapse!
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

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#123608 - 09/27/05 01:57 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: YoungSoulRebel]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
While I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly, I can't help but take a step back in a detached way. Schools are already all too eager to help out with the penis-to-vagina intercourse, but completely shun the idea that other forms of sexual gratification (besides masturbation) exist.

Therefore, the teachers in that position would have power over the children based on their ideals and stance. Formal education is a very large part of my political agenda, but I certainly won't deny that a select few terrible teachers have damaged me emotionally.
_________________________
"Suppose you threw a love affair and nobody came?" - Lorrie Moore, "How to Become a Writer"

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#123609 - 09/27/05 02:02 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: uncleherpe]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
Just like economics, it's easy to play into assumptions for the ease of accurate statements. Unfortunately, these statements end up being rather precise, but not accurate at all.

The wedding-day fantasy is shared by many people, but is still held in society as a rite of passage. You are not "supposed" to start a family or enjoy your life until you get married (which is extremely seldom the case for those who know how to enjoy life) and those impressed with such an idea are pretty indoctrinated into the system.

The ceremony itself raises very few questions; I see no problem with having extravagant weddings that lead to commmitment. The need for prenuptial agreements, however, is beginning to rise as the legal perspective of marriage is becoming more prominent.
_________________________
"Suppose you threw a love affair and nobody came?" - Lorrie Moore, "How to Become a Writer"

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#123610 - 09/27/05 02:31 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Phenylalanine]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
And you think this is a new thing? The establishment didn't just invent this idea of pushing propaganda onto children through the mask of education — and if one assumes that a child's education can and will be only the school systems, they're wrong. Children learn not just from schools, but from parents, age-peers and the entertainment and news media.
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

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#123611 - 09/27/05 02:34 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Phenylalanine]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:



The wedding-day fantasy is shared by many people, but is still held in society as a rite of passage. You are not "supposed" to start a family or enjoy your life until you get married (which is extremely seldom the case for those who know how to enjoy life) and those impressed with such an idea are pretty indoctrinated into the system.





It used to be illegal for two people who were dating and unmarried to live together, and that wasnt too long ago (the early 70's if memory serves me correctly). Traditions are changed or go away all the time, I wouldnt be suprised if this one changes too.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

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#123612 - 09/27/05 06:21 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: YoungSoulRebel]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

Society as we know it is about to collapse!



Oh please, please let that happen! This would be a very good thing in my mind.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#123613 - 09/27/05 06:25 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: tovasshi]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

Funny enough, I don't own one.




Now you too can have your very own paperback dictionary, on sale now at your local corporate bookstore for just.... wait for it.....5.95!!!


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#123614 - 09/28/05 01:47 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Phenylalanine]
bianca Offline


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 142
Loc: Right where I should be.
Quote:

..... Schools are already all too eager to help out with the penis-to-vagina intercourse, but completely shun the idea that other forms of sexual gratification (besides masturbation) exist........
Therefore, the teachers in that position would have power over the children based on their ideals and stance.



How odd. In my corner of the world, teaching the techniques ( I WAS going to say "the ins and outs ) of gay sex is the order of the day, way past what's necessary to inform the kids about safe sex. In fact, it's acceptable to be gay and offensive to be straight. In my opinion,sexuality should'nt be taught in school beyond what's needed for a biology class, and certainly not in the pre-school and grade school age groups, which also seems to be the order of the day as of late. It's governmental usurping of parental authority,which I equate with Big Brother sticking his snout into my lair
_________________________
"....a powerful sorceress must be cautious about aligning herself with, and transferring power to, unworthy men."

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#123615 - 09/28/05 02:48 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: bianca]
Manceres Offline


Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: USA
This whole thing here dredged up a memory if an idea I had.
Quote:

I for one,don't think it's irrational. For example, some birth certificates of children of married lesbian couples in Massachusetts are not being honoured because it's NOT biologically possible to have two mothers and no father, no matter whose marriage is legal or not. So what then will there be? Parent One and Parent Two, like their marriage certificates say Spouse A and Spouse B?



With all our woderfull technology out there with which we can do such amazing things what happens if you combine two such sciences. So if we take In Vitro Fertilization and Cloneing and put the two processes together what do we get. Who then is the parent of the baby? This process could be full of holes I don't see but think about this. It may not be viable but what the hell.

Take an egg from Mother A remove the DNA and add the DNA from the Mother B as in cloning but then put the egg back into the Mother A and bring to term. What do we have then? Well we would have an embryo that is a genetic clone of Mother B but yet it used an egg and body of Mother A to bring it to term. Natural reproduction at it's most basic just using one full strand of DNA instead of two halves.

Most arguments against gay marriage start with the purpose of marriage is soley reproduction this method could allow Lesbians at least to get married. And would also be valid because if they invalidate it it would invalidate all In Vitro Fertilization babies.
This arguments also tends to ignore marriages that don't have children but yet are still perfectly
legal.

What can I say I am a laboratory away from Mad Scientist.

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#123616 - 09/28/05 02:49 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: uncleherpe]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>I am actually semi disgusted with many of the posts in
>>this thread. Things are way more complicated than "women
>>like this... guys like that".

While I agree it's foolish to assume that every person is merely a carbon copy of all others in their respective race or gender, I think it's equally dumb to be so "PC" that one turns a blind eye to disproportionally consistant similarities. Stereotypes are stereotypes because quite often there's a bit of truth to them. Hard-core relativists can never hope to have any success with lesser magic.

In this society, women by far and large are the ones who 1) experience more pressure to get married (from both others and themselves), 2) pressure others to get married, 3) take creative control over a wedding, 4) can legally get away with being more abusive to a spouse, 5) are sometimes even expected to stay home while the other spouse works to make income for both of them, 6) end up winning more items in a divorce (including child custody). If you find men who fit any of these bills, the number would be incredibly smaller in comparison.

On top of this, you have both men and women wanting to get married for many dumb reasons: "because we've been together for over a year", "because that's the next thing I'm supposed to do with my life", "because I want sex but I adhere to a sex-hating religion", "because I'm just assuming that this is what my S.O. wants", "because I have nothing else in my life", "we have to show grandmother before she dies".

So until tables turn, I agree with Agent Malebranche's advice: this looks like a dangerous thing that can easily end up suckering men into damaging their lives.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

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#123617 - 09/28/05 06:03 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: bianca]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Where is this homosexual Nirvana of a school of which you speak? The way you talk, I highly doubt you go to Harvey Milk High School.

Furthermore, if exposing young, pre-teen children to the idea of what sex is, how do you feel about violence? Exposing children to images violence at a young age is proven to be more psychologically damaging than exposing them to images of sex.
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

Top
#123618 - 09/28/05 06:53 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Barb Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 587
Quote:



I think you are right. I know atheists who think same sex relationships are wrong. When I ask why...they just do. Something about "what is natural". The truth is, they are grossed out.




I agree also. When people say they think it is unnatural for gay people to be together, they have a complete lack of sense. If two people of the same sex love each other, then it is very NATURAL for THEM to be together. What you feel like is what is natural for you.

I don’t get why anyone would be grossed out by seeing people of the same sex kissing or something. They’re both humans and adults. I’m straight, but I have kissed a couple girl friends when I was younger, and I didn’t think it was gross.
_________________________
"... it is much more gratifying to change your own world than the whole world." ~Magistra Ygraine

"Life is the great indulgence-death the great abstinence. Therefore, make the most of life-here and now!" ~Anton Szandor LaVey

"The true test of anyone's worth as a living creature is how much he can utilize what he has." ~Anton Szandor LaVey

"Twenty percent of your priorities will give you 80 percent of your production, IF you spend your time, energy, money, and personnel on the top 20 percent of your priorities." ~The Pareto Principle, as stated by John C. Maxwell

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#123619 - 09/28/05 06:56 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Discipline]
Barb Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 587
Quote:


I grow tired of both heterosexuals and homosexuals flaunting their social standings.

So you have sex with someone, do you need an applause? Does the act of sex make you so much more superior and advanced as a human being? Nope, not one bit.




This reminds me of when I was in high school and all the “cool kids” would just have sex so they could brag about it to their friends, because they felt like they needed this kind of applause that you have mentioned. Or, they would nervously lose their virginities just because they thought they were “at the age” to do so. But, so many herdlings feel this need to announce their sex lives to each other as a way of “fitting in” and feeling like a “real man” or “real woman”. I say, all it makes them is a real herdling.

I would NEVER have sex for such a compulsive reason, as to impress others. Only to please myself, and I wouldn’t even tell anyone about it.
_________________________
"... it is much more gratifying to change your own world than the whole world." ~Magistra Ygraine

"Life is the great indulgence-death the great abstinence. Therefore, make the most of life-here and now!" ~Anton Szandor LaVey

"The true test of anyone's worth as a living creature is how much he can utilize what he has." ~Anton Szandor LaVey

"Twenty percent of your priorities will give you 80 percent of your production, IF you spend your time, energy, money, and personnel on the top 20 percent of your priorities." ~The Pareto Principle, as stated by John C. Maxwell

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#123620 - 09/29/05 04:43 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Bill_M]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

>>I am actually semi disgusted with many of the posts in
>>this thread. Things are way more complicated than "women
>>like this... guys like that".

While I agree it's foolish to assume that every person is merely a carbon copy of all others in their respective race or gender, I think it's equally dumb to be so "PC" that one turns a blind eye to disproportionally consistant similarities. Stereotypes are stereotypes because quite often there's a bit of truth to them. Hard-core relativists can never hope to have any success with lesser magic.

In this society, women by far and large are the ones who 1) experience more pressure to get married (from both others and themselves), 2) pressure others to get married, 3) take creative control over a wedding, 4) can legally get away with being more abusive to a spouse, 5) are sometimes even expected to stay home while the other spouse works to make income for both of them, 6) end up winning more items in a divorce (including child custody). If you find men who fit any of these bills, the number would be incredibly smaller in comparison.

On top of this, you have both men and women wanting to get married for many dumb reasons: "because we've been together for over a year", "because that's the next thing I'm supposed to do with my life", "because I want sex but I adhere to a sex-hating religion", "because I'm just assuming that this is what my S.O. wants", "because I have nothing else in my life", "we have to show grandmother before she dies".

So until tables turn, I agree with Agent Malebranche's advice: this looks like a dangerous thing that can easily end up suckering men into damaging their lives.




I am far from 'pc'. That wasnt even the argument.

What major life choice CANT end up biting someone in the ass later? Buying a car can could mess up my credit, it doesnt mean I will take the bus to avoid possibly messing up.

How can anyone tell half the population what is and isnt a good idea when its about a personal relationship that no one really knows but the people involved? No one can generalize about something so personal and unique to each couple.

Hey, guess what? Ive dealt with sexual harrassment, so have a lot of girls I know. The lesson here isnt that women shouldnt work to avoid dealing with something that certainly isnt any good, the lesson is to find a good place to work. How about someone reccomends not getting married to an idiot? Or getting married to someone that you can deal with? Or waiting a few years before marriage?

That would be much better advice, much more realistic as well.


Gender is just so... meaningless to me.


Edited by uncleherpe (09/29/05 04:44 PM)
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

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#123621 - 09/29/05 04:51 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: uncleherpe]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Quote:

The lesson here isnt that women shouldnt work to avoid dealing with something that certainly isnt any good, the lesson is to find a good place to work. How about someone reccomends not getting married to an idiot? Or getting married to someone that you can deal with? Or waiting a few years before marriage?




Or, at least, get married for mutually beneficial reasons that make sense to both parties. 'Course, to many, that goes along the lines of not getting married to "an idiot."
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

Top
#123622 - 09/29/05 08:34 PM Yeah but... do they reall want to marry? [Re: Krupa]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Once more, I’d play Devil’s Advocate.

Reading different post in this thread, I find many people automatically assume if someone is against “gay marriage” that automatically means he hates gays and is some kind of ultra-right-wing-fundamentalist-whacko. This is not necessarily true.

Of course, in every human group, there is always a small minority that makes noise and speak for the rest (thought usually they don’t represent their group)

A person can be tolerant about gays but at the same time think the “gay marriage” will have undesirable social or economical ramifications.

I know gay people who don’t think gay marriage is a good idea.

I was talking to a friend who happens to be openly gay and he told me he found the “gay marriage” issue stupid. He thinks a small group is speaking for ALL gays, like they were all exactly the same. That is just reaffirming a stereotype. He doesn’t feel represented by them. He is even convinced the people who are pushing this issue harder, are not gay at all, they are just using gays as a battling ram to push their political agendas.

His argument was more or less this:

“Why would I want to marry anyone? Precisely the thing I like of my lifestyle is that it breaks the traditional concept of a sexual relationship. Why would I like to mimic the “heteros” by marrying? To be as miserable as them? Gay relationships are not like straight ones, the rules are different. Most gays I know wouldn’t want to marry”.

He also think as soon as there are gay marriages, there will also be gay divorces. People who opposed gay marriage will be waiting for this moment to jump and scream “You see! I knew it wouldn’t work!!!”

He “came out of the closet” years ago and it took a lot of time and patience for him to make his family and friends to accept him as a person, defined by his talent and his accomplishments, not by his sexual preference. He has a stable relationship with another man and he loves privacy (like anyone else) Now he feels someone is putting a spotlight on him again and people start to ask “Hey, when are you gonna marry”.

My point is: Nothing is BLACK and WHITE. There are shades of gray.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
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#123623 - 09/30/05 12:35 AM Re: Yeah but... do they reall want to marry? [Re: Old_Pig]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
I'd like to agree with this sentiment.

Marriage is bulky. Among anything else, it's a lot of legal hassle that some people would just be better off without. I know of an older couple in my former neighborhood that has been together for 20 years and they both never married. "It keeps us fresh", they would say, though I never quite understood it at the time.

Gay marriage is not about rights and un-rights all the time. If it was to work, as I've iterated in the past, the entire definition of marriage has to be altered. I think that would just be too much hassle to overwork and it just becomes wrong.

Marriage is rarely ever a situation of love anyway.
_________________________
"Suppose you threw a love affair and nobody came?" - Lorrie Moore, "How to Become a Writer"

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#123624 - 09/30/05 01:14 AM Re: Yeah but... do they reall want to marry? [Re: Phenylalanine]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Quote:

If it was to work, as I've iterated in the past, the entire definition of marriage has to be altered. I think that would just be too much hassle to overwork and it just becomes wrong.




What "definition of marriage"? That's Falwell-speak, dearie. The only real "alteration to the definition of marriage" would be changing the words "man and woman" to "persons" — and great googly-moogly, you've cut out two words by doing that!

Why any other talk to "altering the definition of marriage is bunk:

1. Those who claim the definition of marriage would have to be altered because marriage is about procreation (and natural procreation between two persons of the same sex is a biological impossibility) are WRONG because sterile couples and the elderly marry with alarming frequency and they legally have the same constitutional rights awarded to fertile married couples as well as any job-related benefits.

2. At one time in the States (yes, even Michigan) Whites could not legally marry non-Whites. I'm sure The Klan would agree with you that when that law was lifted, "the definition of marriage" changed.

3. There have also been times, especially notable before the Protestant movement in Europe, divorse was illegal. When divorse was allowed by Protestant groups and then secular law, "the definition of marriage" was also altered.

I see what you mean, further altering "the definition of marriage" in such a ludicrous manner (cos, you know, a MTF person can legally marry a biological female in many states in the US, including Michigan [this is providing that, despite legal qualifications for genital-reconstruction, changing one's legal sex has not occured, for one reason or another], making that a union between two persons with a woman-identified and accepted social gender) if obviously too much for this country to handle. I mean, since a 70-year-old black man can't marry a 65-year-old white woman, cos of the laws against interracial marriage and the laws against infertile people marrying, I don't think changing the definition of marriage needs to be altered any further.
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

Top
#123625 - 09/30/05 01:50 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
The thing about this subject, and why I refuse to take it seriously, is that it's such a non-issue. I mean really, retards worry about things like this, and it doesn't matter if your for it or against it. This non-issue has about as much importance as a reality TV show. I mean think about it, this nation is facing paying the bill of a costly war of dubious purpose, and the multi-billion dollar cost of putting a major city back together. And yet people still find the time to worry about John Q Homosexual and the ritualization of his legal commitments.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#123626 - 09/30/05 02:37 AM Re: Yeah but... do they reall want to marry? [Re: YoungSoulRebel]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
Rationally, and in an ideal world, you would be correct. If I had it my way, we would be in a society that valued relationships completely on their own merit and not on the fundamentals by which the country was founded.

Whenever you change something so integral to the sociology of the country (slavery being a good example) there is always a lingering pain that spreads across the socioeconomic boundaries. Large amounts of immigration also create issues of detachment between those of races and classes. As much as we don't want to believe in the 'inelected proletariat', it does exist. It exists, not so much in the thoughts of the fairminded, but the tenets by which the social structure is set up upon.

In a nutshell, same-sex marriage is a great thing to champion socially in a civil-rights light. It seems obvious to cry injustice when two consenting adults do something that will not harm themselves. That's dandy.

However, what are you going to say to the strictly Protestant 50-year-old schoolteacher who, when coming time to have the state-sanctioned "little talk" about the "birds and the bees", completely neglects the idea of same-sex anything? It's not the reinstitution of ideas that is the problem; it's the perpetuity of the old ones. What steps will be taken to rid our society of that idiosyncrasy?

The "defintion of marriage", as I've spoken of earlier, is not "sanctity" as it would seem to be. Marriage is often lampooned as a silly and trivial thing that many would be without; I will not make a statement on that. The definition is mutable across all time. I won't dispute that, either. However, I do think too strong of an emphasis is placed on the social aspect of it rather than the sociopolitical and socioeconomic aspects of it. Taxes have to be reformatted; procedures have to be changed; curriculums in school have to be adapted to recognize; civil-rights organizations need to be set up to organize the "revolution".

Getting down to brass tacks, it's not that it's a bad idea. In effect, it's a very benevolent idea. However, readapting something decently-idealized to something generally flawed for its original purpose will inevitably crumble unless serious reform is made. This will essentially involve massive amounts of cooperation and quite a bit of extraneous legislature. Canada had to change 68 statutes simply to allow it in a small majority of provinces.

And, as a side note, I couldn't care less about what Michigan did.
_________________________
"Suppose you threw a love affair and nobody came?" - Lorrie Moore, "How to Become a Writer"

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#123627 - 09/30/05 02:30 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Jack_Lantern]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
You speak the truth, and that's just the way "they" like it. Ever see the movie Wag The Dog? Keep the masses looking at stupid issues that have no real meaning in the big picture. Just another way to keep the herd chewing.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


Top
#123628 - 09/30/05 02:43 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Manceres]
bianca Offline


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 142
Loc: Right where I should be.
Quote:



Most arguments against gay marriage start with the purpose of marriage is soley reproduction ...... And would also be valid because if they invalidate it it would invalidate all In Vitro Fertilization babies.
This arguments also tends to ignore marriages that don't have children but yet are still perfectly
legal.

What can I say I am a laboratory away from Mad Scientist.



I think you misunderstood what my post was all about. I was'nt using the old "marriage is for reproduction" argument against gay marriage, I was merely pointing out the societal/legal difficulties that have come about due to the reality of gay marriage. The nebulous birth certificates,with "father" crossed out and Mother #2 written in,or accompanied by asterisks,etc.,was my point, and I wonder what other issues will come up, such as who are the legal parents when a 2 male married couple mix their sperm together to impreganate a third party, and so on. I'm surprised that with the number of gay rights groups that had their hands into the legalization of gay marriage that,apparently,none of them gave a thought to any of the difficulties that the resulting familes might encounter, and took pre-emptive steps to make things easier, such as hashing out the birth certificate issue BEFORE forcing the leglization of gay marriage.I'd like to see the GBLT legal groups give some attention those potential problems. But then, how could they piss and moan about how put upon they are by that mean old straight community.It looks like the people of Massachusetts,and eventually the rest of us, are going to end up with a stack of forms customized for each situation like every form and sign now seems to be in every language or it's some kind of conspiracy, or worse, totally generic. Sorry, but if I choose to have a civil union/marriage, I WANT a husband not a "spouse B", and I WANT my child's birth certificate to list a father, not "parent A" Old-fashioned? Perhaps. Hateful? A resounding NO.

For the record, I don't agree with IVF,surrogate mothers,sisters having their sister's "baby", grandmothers giving birth to their own grandchildren and so on. It used to be a joke, but now you actually can "be" your own grandpa.
_________________________
"....a powerful sorceress must be cautious about aligning herself with, and transferring power to, unworthy men."

Top
#123629 - 09/30/05 03:08 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: YoungSoulRebel]
bianca Offline


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 142
Loc: Right where I should be.
Quote:

Where is this homosexual Nirvana of a school of which you speak? The way you talk, I highly doubt you go to Harvey Milk High School.

Furthermore, if exposing young, pre-teen children to the idea of what sex is, how do you feel about violence? Exposing children to images violence at a young age is proven to be more psychologically damaging than exposing them to images of sex.



What I'm talking about are groups like GLSTN coming into schools and being giving free reign to spread whatever information is on THEIR agenda,without the parents having any say. I'm talking about pre-schoolers coming home with books talking about not sharing body fluids,including semen. It should be my perogative to explain these things to my child when I feel he's ready, not when someone else,gay or straight,decides he is.

As far as violence goes: I consider someone sticking their fist up someone else's butt an act of violence, not a "loving acting out of a trust issue" as GLSTN and their ilk are telling the kids and I don't want my child exposed to that anymore than I want him to see a whale slaughtered or a "Faces of Death"video.
_________________________
"....a powerful sorceress must be cautious about aligning herself with, and transferring power to, unworthy men."

Top
#123630 - 10/01/05 10:13 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
Grima Offline


Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Netherlands
It is because of the christian myth surrounding it. They believe that a good marriage can only consist of a man and a woman, preferably virgins, in order to reproduce. That is all there is to marriage in their eyes.
Marriage is quite uncomplicated but it is made so tiring because of the stupid expectations people have about it. Marrying in the 'eyes of god', 'eternal love' and all that crap. If you don't love eachother or the sex is awful, some piece of paper won't make it any better. But these idiots see it as something holy and divine and something like that can only be done in their image. Gay's and lesbians are far from holy in their eyes and therefore 'not worthy' of something like that. I would just like to know what they would say about bi-sexuals marrying, is that good as long as it is with somebody from the opposite sex? Funny question to ask them, but whatever their reply I couldn't care less.
If people want to marry they should be free to do so regardless of who they want to marry with or even how many.

Top
#123631 - 10/01/05 01:01 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Grima]
NiteWraith Offline


Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 25
Loc: Emporia, Kansas
I had the opportunity too ask an individual just such a question,,, she stated that it was still a homosexual act,,,, my question,, however,,, is this,,if it is wrong for a man too have sexual relations with another man,, and for a woman too have sexual relations with another woman,, then doesnt that make ALL of the xians who masturbate unholy in gods eyes????? I mean,,,z arent they having a sexual relationship with a person of the same sex??????????
_________________________
Living life to the fullest.

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#123632 - 10/01/05 01:21 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: bianca]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

Quote:

Where is this homosexual Nirvana of a school of which you speak? The way you talk, I highly doubt you go to Harvey Milk High School.

Furthermore, if exposing young, pre-teen children to the idea of what sex is, how do you feel about violence? Exposing children to images violence at a young age is proven to be more psychologically damaging than exposing them to images of sex.



What I'm talking about are groups like GLSTN coming into schools and being giving free reign to spread whatever information is on THEIR agenda,without the parents having any say. I'm talking about pre-schoolers coming home with books talking about not sharing body fluids,including semen. It should be my perogative to explain these things to my child when I feel he's ready, not when someone else,gay or straight,decides he is.

As far as violence goes: I consider someone sticking their fist up someone else's butt an act of violence, not a "loving acting out of a trust issue" as GLSTN and their ilk are telling the kids and I don't want my child exposed to that anymore than I want him to see a whale slaughtered or a "Faces of Death"video.




Im actually young enough to have experienced a glbt seminar at my school. There was no mention of fisting or anything, mostly about acceptance and the same old 'use condoms' stuff they say about straight sex.

I have never heard of any pre schoolers with sex knowledge or graphic descriptions of fisting or ass sex from sites that werent really anti gay. I havent seen a reputable news source ever print a story on that, and god knows they would be all over it.

The way I see it with sex ed is that your kids are going to listen to their stupid friends if they arent taught anything before hand (and they still do sometimes after that). I had an abstinence only sex education from public school. Not addressing birth control ended up with the same old stupid rumours about using two condoms and how you cant get pregnant on your period. I was actually interested in sex and decided to read about it, but I would say the majority of parents dont turn the sex talk into a bio lesson like my mom did, or even talk about sex with their kids at all.

Its unfortunate, but the schools have to pick up the slack for a lot of parents who simply will never discuss it.

Every sex ed class I was in made everyone take home permission slips too, so that if parents didnt want their kids to hear that stuff they could do something else during health.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

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#123633 - 10/01/05 02:02 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: uncleherpe]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
"Ass sex". *immature giggling*

While I agree that blatant sexual material should not be purveyed to children, I do believe that at a certain point (8th-9th grade in the American system) that homosexuality at least be recognized as a viable phenomenon.

I attribute a great deal of the pain that I've gone through sexually to simply not knowing.
_________________________
"Suppose you threw a love affair and nobody came?" - Lorrie Moore, "How to Become a Writer"

Top
#123634 - 10/01/05 02:26 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Grima]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Quote:

I would just like to know what they would say about bi-sexuals marrying, is that good as long as it is with somebody from the opposite sex? Funny question to ask them, but whatever their reply I couldn't care less.






This question would puzzle them. I very highly doubt people involved in most religions, or people in general, understand the difference between a bi-sexual and a homosexual. They judge people by their actions, in this case. If a man is having sex with a woman, he is straight, if a man, he is gay. If both...the little conversation I have had with Christians about sexuality leads me to believe they would be considered homosexuals, who also have sex with women.
However, since you could not care less, perhaps this answer is moot.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#123635 - 10/01/05 02:42 PM Same-sex marriage [Re: Krupa]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
In California, marriage is defined as being between a man
and a woman. Does this mean that after the first
marriage between a man and a woman that all other marriages
in the state are invalid because "a" man and "a" woman just
got hitched? No! That would be just as ridiculous as saying
that people who love each other have no way of being recognized
by the state as having a relationship.

In order for the United States to take a step towards evolving
into a truly religious free government, same-sex marriages
must be allowed to happen. Our homosexual friends and
neighbors need to feel safe in their homes and protected by
the laws that protect everyone else in our allegedly free
country.
_________________________




Top
#123636 - 10/01/05 05:04 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: bianca]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Quote:

As far as violence goes: I consider someone sticking their fist up someone else's butt an act of violence, not a "loving acting out of a trust issue" as GLSTN and their ilk are telling the kids ...




You know, I could probably change your mind about that. My hands are the perfect size for fisting.

And chances are, you're blowing the situation TOTALLY out of proportion because you find people who talk openly about and even question sexuality to be a threat to yours. I mean, what's the point in getting defensive when you're very obviously safe?
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

Top
#123637 - 10/01/05 05:15 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: uncleherpe]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Where is this homosexual Nirvana of a school of which you speak? The way you talk, I highly doubt you go to Harvey Milk High School.

Furthermore, if exposing young, pre-teen children to the idea of what sex is, how do you feel about violence? Exposing children to images violence at a young age is proven to be more psychologically damaging than exposing them to images of sex.



What I'm talking about are groups like GLSTN coming into schools and being giving free reign to spread whatever information is on THEIR agenda,without the parents having any say. I'm talking about pre-schoolers coming home with books talking about not sharing body fluids,including semen. It should be my perogative to explain these things to my child when I feel he's ready, not when someone else,gay or straight,decides he is.

As far as violence goes: I consider someone sticking their fist up someone else's butt an act of violence, not a "loving acting out of a trust issue" as GLSTN and their ilk are telling the kids and I don't want my child exposed to that anymore than I want him to see a whale slaughtered or a "Faces of Death"video.




Im actually young enough to have experienced a glbt seminar at my school. There was no mention of fisting or anything, mostly about acceptance and the same old 'use condoms' stuff they say about straight sex.

I have never heard of any pre schoolers with sex knowledge or graphic descriptions of fisting or ass sex from sites that werent really anti gay. I havent seen a reputable news source ever print a story on that, and god knows they would be all over it.

The way I see it with sex ed is that your kids are going to listen to their stupid friends if they arent taught anything before hand (and they still do sometimes after that). I had an abstinence only sex education from public school. Not addressing birth control ended up with the same old stupid rumours about using two condoms and how you cant get pregnant on your period. I was actually interested in sex and decided to read about it, but I would say the majority of parents dont turn the sex talk into a bio lesson like my mom did, or even talk about sex with their kids at all.

Its unfortunate, but the schools have to pick up the slack for a lot of parents who simply will never discuss it.

Every sex ed class I was in made everyone take home permission slips too, so that if parents didnt want their kids to hear that stuff they could do something else during health.




Yeah, I'm not that old — the most recently I was attending high school was 1999. As much as the Christian/Conservative news media LOVE to blow shit out of proportion, anything about preschoolers getting graphic information about sex at school would DEFINATELY have the lynch-mobs at FOX News screeching. I mean, hell, they were all over it whe PeTA was passing out their "buckets of blood" and "Your Mommy Kills Animals" comic to very young children.

This "bianca" is, I suspect, a homophobic fruit-loop (and probably a closet deisel-dyke) who considers any GLBT people preaching anti-orientation discrimination to be "ridiculing teh straights."
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

Top
#123638 - 10/01/05 05:33 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: NiteWraith]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
If you'd ever actually read the Christian Bible, you'd understand that masturbation is still considered "unholy", but it gets its own seperate reasons why.

Furthermore, you contradicted yourself be saying "man with ANOTHER man"/"woman with ANOTHER woman" — see, masturbation is sexual activity with the SELF, not with another.
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

Top
#123639 - 10/01/05 05:37 PM Re: Same-sex marriage [Re: RandomStranger]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Quote:

In order for the United States to take a step towards evolving into a truly religious free government, same-sex marriages must be allowed to happen. Our homosexual friends and neighbors need to feel safe in their homes and protected by the laws that protect everyone else in our allegedly free country.




Precicely.
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

Top
#123640 - 10/01/05 06:35 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
XulJaguar Offline


Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Atlanta, Georgia


Personally I do have an objection to the legalization of gay marriage. It’s not because I’m a homophobe. I have a big problem with government recognition of marriage for straights or gays. It seems to me marriage is a religious concept. What society in all of world history has a traditional marriage ceremony that is not religious in nature? I sure there is one, but it must be obscure. Government sanctioned marriage violates separation of church and state.

Don’t legalize gay marriage; outlaw all marriage!

Well, that’s a little extreme. I believe government should only recognize domestic partnerships and that the sex of the parties should have nothing to do with it. If you want to get married go to your church, temple, mosque, secular community center or whatever. Don’t get the government involved. If, for legal reasons, you need some official recognition of your relationship then go to the government for domestic partnership status.

The major flaw in my argument is that the same logic could be used to say that government should not recognize death because it is basically religious in nature.
Oh well…

Hail Satan!
_________________________
"The shortest and best way to make your fortune is to let people see clearly that it is in their interests to promote yours" -Jean de La Bruyere ''A day without sunshine is like a cloudy day." -Some Guy

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#123641 - 10/01/05 09:46 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: YoungSoulRebel]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Quote:

If you'd ever actually read the Christian Bible, you'd understand that masturbation is still considered "unholy", but it gets its own seperate reasons why.






I'm not sure where the Christian Bible states, or even implies that masturbation is unholy.
The only instance that has been flasely called masturbation is this:
"After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." Genesis 38:8-10
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#123642 - 10/01/05 09:56 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: YoungSoulRebel]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Quote:

As much as the Christian/Conservative news media LOVE to blow shit out of proportion, anything about preschoolers getting graphic information about sex at school would DEFINATELY have the lynch-mobs at FOX News screeching.




Damn straight! I would demand to know why all I ever got were those crappy stick figure drawings, and not the cool graphic stuff kids get now!!

Sorry...I've spent way too much time looking for mastubatory references in the Holey Bible.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

Top
#123643 - 10/02/05 12:21 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
Its in Leviticus, its about how all bodily fluids are unclean. If you masterbate and you spill your seed, you are have to sacrifice a dove and tell people you are unclean until the sun sets.
_________________________
Hi.

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#123644 - 10/02/05 12:40 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: YoungSoulRebel]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Where is this homosexual Nirvana of a school of which you speak? The way you talk, I highly doubt you go to Harvey Milk High School.

Furthermore, if exposing young, pre-teen children to the idea of what sex is, how do you feel about violence? Exposing children to images violence at a young age is proven to be more psychologically damaging than exposing them to images of sex.



What I'm talking about are groups like GLSTN coming into schools and being giving free reign to spread whatever information is on THEIR agenda,without the parents having any say. I'm talking about pre-schoolers coming home with books talking about not sharing body fluids,including semen. It should be my perogative to explain these things to my child when I feel he's ready, not when someone else,gay or straight,decides he is.

As far as violence goes: I consider someone sticking their fist up someone else's butt an act of violence, not a "loving acting out of a trust issue" as GLSTN and their ilk are telling the kids and I don't want my child exposed to that anymore than I want him to see a whale slaughtered or a "Faces of Death"video.




Im actually young enough to have experienced a glbt seminar at my school. There was no mention of fisting or anything, mostly about acceptance and the same old 'use condoms' stuff they say about straight sex.

I have never heard of any pre schoolers with sex knowledge or graphic descriptions of fisting or ass sex from sites that werent really anti gay. I havent seen a reputable news source ever print a story on that, and god knows they would be all over it.

The way I see it with sex ed is that your kids are going to listen to their stupid friends if they arent taught anything before hand (and they still do sometimes after that). I had an abstinence only sex education from public school. Not addressing birth control ended up with the same old stupid rumours about using two condoms and how you cant get pregnant on your period. I was actually interested in sex and decided to read about it, but I would say the majority of parents dont turn the sex talk into a bio lesson like my mom did, or even talk about sex with their kids at all.

Its unfortunate, but the schools have to pick up the slack for a lot of parents who simply will never discuss it.

Every sex ed class I was in made everyone take home permission slips too, so that if parents didnt want their kids to hear that stuff they could do something else during health.




Yeah, I'm not that old — the most recently I was attending high school was 1999. As much as the Christian/Conservative news media LOVE to blow shit out of proportion, anything about preschoolers getting graphic information about sex at school would DEFINATELY have the lynch-mobs at FOX News screeching. I mean, hell, they were all over it whe PeTA was passing out their "buckets of blood" and "Your Mommy Kills Animals" comic to very young children.

This "bianca" is, I suspect, a homophobic fruit-loop (and probably a closet deisel-dyke) who considers any GLBT people preaching anti-orientation discrimination to be "ridiculing teh straights."





I like you

your posts make me happy.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

Top
#123645 - 10/02/05 01:05 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: tovasshi]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
Uh-oh, better watch it, it's Leviticus!

Of all the books in the Bible, I think someone really needed to play "One of these things is not like the other" with this one.
_________________________
"Suppose you threw a love affair and nobody came?" - Lorrie Moore, "How to Become a Writer"

Top
#123646 - 10/02/05 09:34 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: uncleherpe]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
I'm the Oscar Wilde of my generation — except I'm very short.
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

Top
#123647 - 10/02/05 10:50 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: tovasshi]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Quote:

Its in Leviticus, its about how all bodily fluids are unclean. If you masterbate and you spill your seed, you are have to sacrifice a dove and tell people you are unclean until the sun sets.




Damn...I think may have decimated the dove population. I believe most references in Leviticus refer to the menses. I could be wrong, however.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#123648 - 10/03/05 06:28 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Grima Offline


Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:

This question would puzzle them. I very highly doubt people involved in most religions, or people in general, understand the difference between a bi-sexual and a homosexual. They judge people by their actions, in this case. If a man is having sex with a woman, he is straight, if a man, he is gay. If both...the little conversation I have had with Christians about sexuality leads me to believe they would be considered homosexuals, who also have sex with women.
However, since you could not care less, perhaps this answer is moot.




Ah yes the world for them just has to be black and white doesn't it? And I really don't care like you said, but sometimes when I have some time on my hands I like to humor myself by pondering over these questions. Just humor myself that's all, I am not going to wast any time on those idiots whilst I could do something constructive instead.
And if they would care to judge me for my sexual behaviour I would be given an one-way ticket to Hell instantly.

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#123649 - 10/03/05 03:34 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: YoungSoulRebel]
bianca Offline


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 142
Loc: Right where I should be.
Quote:



This "bianca" is, I suspect, a homophobic fruit-loop (and probably a closet deisel-dyke) who considers any GLBT people preaching anti-orientation discrimination to be "ridiculing teh straights."



Well,your suspicions are incorrect. I am a *gasp* straight woman who sees teaching her child anything about sex,whether gay or straight,my responsibility.

As far as ridiculing the straights, is'nt that what YOU just did?
_________________________
"....a powerful sorceress must be cautious about aligning herself with, and transferring power to, unworthy men."

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#123650 - 10/03/05 04:01 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: bianca]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
No, I ridiculed YOU. Learn the difference.
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

Top
#123651 - 10/03/05 04:18 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: YoungSoulRebel]
Maninblack Offline


Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Garland, Texas
"Conservative/christian media"?? What on Earth is that? The only media that fits that description is the christian "Trinity Broadcast Network" and I would venture to say no one posting here wastes any time watching that. I see the predominate media as very liberal.
I am in agreement with you, BoiAndrogyne, that there is a "panic" about this facet of education. My daughters both brought home permission slips to be signed before they could sit in on the sex-education aspect of Health class. And being very interested in this, I was able to deduce that (right here in Texas!!) the classes were very unbiased, courteous, and educational, with no mention of "limb insertion" or such nonsense. Is there now a "Sex-Ed Panic" among Satanists that rivals the "Satanic Panic" among christians in the 80's? I would surely hope not.
_________________________
Hoisting the Chalice, In the Name of Satan!! Man In Black "Sensitive souls have reacted with shock to the elemental drama of life on this planet, and one of the reasons Darwin so shocked his time - and still bothers ours is that he showed this bone-crushing, blood-drinking drama in all of its elementality and necessity: Life cannot go on without the mutual devouring of organisms...each organism raises its head over a field of corpses, smiles into the sun, and declares life good." Ernest Becker, "Escape From Evil" "I often write about the fact that everything here in the universe seems to eat and get eaten, and we need to pay attention to this. The idea of the Eucharist is that when divinity passes through this universe, it, too, gets eaten." Matthew Fox (Psychology Today, Sept./Oct.,1993)

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#123652 - 10/03/05 04:21 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
VKat Offline


Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 157
Loc: Northern California
I have been under the impression that the reason the government does not want to legalise same sex marriages is, because of the health insurance agencies. If they legalise same sex marriages then the insurance companies will have to start insuring same sex partners as dependants. That would burn a hole in their bank account. Money makes the world go around.

Also, what about not just partners but three individuals wanting to be recognised as partners. I've been to a couple of marriages where this was the case.

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#123653 - 10/03/05 04:34 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Maninblack]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10571
Loc: England
Quote:

"Conservative/christian media"?? What on Earth is that? The only media that fits that description is the christian "Trinity Broadcast Network" and I would venture to say no one posting here wastes any time watching that. I see the predominate media as very liberal.
I am in agreement with you, BoiAndrogyne, that there is a "panic" about this facet of education. My daughters both brought home permission slips to be signed before they could sit in on the sex-education aspect of Health class. And being very interested in this, I was able to deduce that (right here in Texas!!) the classes were very unbiased, courteous, and educational, with no mention of "limb insertion" or such nonsense. Is there now a "Sex-Ed Panic" among Satanists that rivals the "Satanic Panic" among christians in the 80's? I would surely hope not.




I am not sure about panic.

However, though the Satanist may choose to watch what he wants, if anything at all, one should remain aware that the media is the new God for the masses. It is now what gives them their values and sets the precident they aspire to live by.

It is a tool. And it is the tool by which the government and its minions surreptitiously drip-feeds the masses with the messages it wants to instil.

It is simply and undeniably the method (especially in America) by which the essentially Christian government perpertrates its agenda.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#123654 - 10/03/05 04:46 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Maninblack]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
I see celebrities who are political liberals mocked by an "Infotainment" media, which is conservative and largely "Christian", as telling people how to vote. I hate Bono as much as the next guy, but for different reasons than Rupert Murdoch and his War Against Unbiased Journalism does.

On a similar note, I largely disagree with Michael Moore's methods and determination to create a counter-propaganda to FOX-News and the like, but I can also see why he and his methods are necessary in the United States today.

Personally, I'm a fan of NPR.
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

Top
#123655 - 10/04/05 12:14 PM Re: Yeah but... do they reall want to marry? [Re: Old_Pig]
LightSnake Offline


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 49
Quote:


I know gay people who don’t think gay marriage is a good idea.






For what it's worth...the nastiest comments some of my fellow 'mos have come up with:

"Maybe they ought to legalize gay marriage, but not gay divorce. Then see what happens."

"I think I have to oppose it. The major highlight of a marriage is that there's supposed to be this wedding dress with a long, white train. It just _wouldn't be a REAL wedding without the DRESS!_ What the FUCK are people thinking??!"

--LightSnake

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#123656 - 10/04/05 01:37 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: VKat]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
That is a very valid argument; I can certainly see where someone would use that as a serious rebuttal.

It seems to boil down to socioeconomics versus politicopsychology.
_________________________
"Suppose you threw a love affair and nobody came?" - Lorrie Moore, "How to Become a Writer"

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#123657 - 10/04/05 02:25 PM Insurance Reasons [Re: VKat]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
"If they legalise same sex marriages then the insurance companies will have to start insuring same sex partners as dependants. That would burn a hole in their bank account"

Many companies offer health benefits for Domestic Partnerships.
People have to pay to be part of the program but it still
costs less than going out-of-pocket to buy the insurance alone.
_________________________




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#123658 - 10/04/05 02:56 PM Re: Insurance Reasons [Re: RandomStranger]
VKat Offline


Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 157
Loc: Northern California
Quote:

"If they legalise same sex marriages then the insurance companies will have to start insuring same sex partners as dependants. That would burn a hole in their bank account"


Many companies offer health benefits for Domestic Partnerships.
People have to pay to be part of the program but it still
costs less than going out-of-pocket to buy the insurance alone.





I have looked into a lot of insurance companies and have never seen anything stated out right for Domestic Partnerships, but I never asked. I know that since some states still have common law marriages. The insurance companies will have you notarise a paper saying you have been living with the person for X amount of months. However I assumed that was only for male female since I have never seem common law marriage applied to the same sex.

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#123659 - 10/04/05 03:31 PM Re: Insurance Reasons [Re: VKat]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
The insurance we get at work does offer insurance for domestic partners. The sex is not specified...it can be same sex.

Personally, I think the insurance thing is simply an excuse. The truth is, to allow same sex marriages is political suicide.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#123660 - 10/04/05 04:47 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: YoungSoulRebel]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

I see celebrities who are political liberals mocked by an "Infotainment" media, which is conservative and largely "Christian", as telling people how to vote. I hate Bono as much as the next guy, but for different reasons than Rupert Murdoch and his War Against Unbiased Journalism does.

On a similar note, I largely disagree with Michael Moore's methods and determination to create a counter-propaganda to FOX-News and the like, but I can also see why he and his methods are necessary in the United States today.

Personally, I'm a fan of NPR.




go see micheal moore hates america. Its really worth it to see both sides of an argument. I dont think hes necessary at all!

The guy making the movie is very patriotic, which is kind of annoying but he gets the point across. It also features an interview with penn gillette! how friggin cool is that?

anyways..I dont see the media as liberal or conservative. It seems to change with whatever people want to see at the time, and what channel you are watching. One brand of bs isnt any better than another.

and for the person who brought it up... I watch trinity broadcasting because its hilarious. Did you know yoga lets the demons in?
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

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#123661 - 10/04/05 05:10 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: uncleherpe]
Maninblack Offline


Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Garland, Texas
Quote:

...and for the person who brought it up... I watch trinity broadcasting because its hilarious. Did you know yoga lets the demons in?




Absolutely. As any "demonic" eastern practice would !! I've watched for pure comedic relief myself. My reference to it earlier was the ridiculous supposition that someone here might watch it seriously
Jan Crouch (Jeez...I know her name!!) is the new era Tammy Faye only with a monstrous Dolly Parton wig to accent the ghoulish make-up.
_________________________
Hoisting the Chalice, In the Name of Satan!! Man In Black "Sensitive souls have reacted with shock to the elemental drama of life on this planet, and one of the reasons Darwin so shocked his time - and still bothers ours is that he showed this bone-crushing, blood-drinking drama in all of its elementality and necessity: Life cannot go on without the mutual devouring of organisms...each organism raises its head over a field of corpses, smiles into the sun, and declares life good." Ernest Becker, "Escape From Evil" "I often write about the fact that everything here in the universe seems to eat and get eaten, and we need to pay attention to this. The idea of the Eucharist is that when divinity passes through this universe, it, too, gets eaten." Matthew Fox (Psychology Today, Sept./Oct.,1993)

Top
#123662 - 10/04/05 05:21 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
Quote:

However, though the Satanist may choose to watch what he wants, if anything at all, one should remain aware that the media is the new God for the masses. It is now what gives them their values and sets the precident they aspire to live by.

It is a tool. And it is the tool by which the government and its minions surreptitiously drip-feeds the masses with the messages it wants to instil.

It is simply and undeniably the method (especially in America) by which the essentially Christian government perpertrates its agenda.




First of all, well said Warlock.
I always enjoy your cut-to-the-chase, no-bullshit perspective.


If you are interested in more details of the "why and wherefore" of this scenario, I would highly suggest reading up on Marshall McLuhan.
He has composed a lot of information on the "TV generations", and his theories include the digression from sequential/linear thought into contemporary/non-linear thought.

I would also suggest James A Winans, who I believe was the first to really study audience psychology and mass behaviorism.


HS!
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#123663 - 10/04/05 05:41 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: uncleherpe]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
See, there's a distinct difference between hating America and hating the people in currently charge and "getting the point across" is different fro stating unbiased facts.

I think Penn Gilette is just as cool as the next person, but he's also an entertainer, first and foremost. He's good at what he does because of his high charisma stats and his ability to hold people's interest.

...and if you really think the media is a reflection of the people rather than vise-versa, then you underestimatethe how many of the masses choose not to exercise their right to think for themselves.
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

Top
#123664 - 10/04/05 06:03 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Maninblack]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

Quote:

...and for the person who brought it up... I watch trinity broadcasting because its hilarious. Did you know yoga lets the demons in?




Absolutely. As any "demonic" eastern practice would !! I've watched for pure comedic relief myself. My reference to it earlier was the ridiculous supposition that someone here might watch it seriously
Jan Crouch (Jeez...I know her name!!) is the new era Tammy Faye only with a monstrous Dolly Parton wig to accent the ghoulish make-up.





oh that chick with the pink wig!! aaah I know! shes always like 'look at the progress of the bazillion dollar hospital in ethiopia!" and I get kinda pissed because its way nicer than any hospital ive been in. why the hell does a hospital need leather couches??

I like jack van impe. If someone took a shit and there was a newspaper article about it jack could prove its a sign of the rapture.

----

boi- The title is a bit over the top, but its still a movie definatley worth watching.

Yes, I do think the media is more of a bitch to the masses than the other way around. After all, what is the media without anyone listening?
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

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#123665 - 10/04/05 06:10 PM Re: Insurance Reasons [Re: VKat]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
Domestic Partners aren't the same as "common law marriages".

Whatever route you take, make sure to be aware of the legal
implications before making your choice.
_________________________




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#123666 - 10/04/05 06:59 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Maninblack]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

" Is there now a "Sex-Ed Panic" among Satanists that rivals the "Satanic Panic" among christians in the 80's? I would surely hope not.




I would hardly call one person's opinion a "sex-ed panic". I haven't seen anyone else jump on that bandwagon yet.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#123667 - 10/05/05 03:13 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: dragondancer]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
No, never saw that movie, but I'll see if I can't get a view sometime. It just seems obvious to me that the two issues that are most important to the common American, terrorists and gay marriage, (incidentally what got our current president elected, fighting terrorists abroad and gays at home) are the two things I just can go ahead and not care about. These are the things that are being paraded around as this decades boogie men, so why bother fretting over it?
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#123668 - 10/05/05 03:18 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Phenylalanine]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:

I attribute a great deal of the pain that I've gone through sexually to simply not knowing.




I attribute most of the pain I expierianced to getting a medical style sex education class, when really teen boys and girls should be taught how to have sex, alongside the medical definition. But no doubt uptight parents and religious crusaders heads would explode if even such a thing were mentioned.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#123669 - 10/05/05 03:26 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: uncleherpe]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
I watch the catholic channel myself, thats not its name, its just what I call it. My favorite is the nun that explains the trinity. Anyone, and I mean anyone, could sit and listen to that nun, then walk into a lecture on quantumelectrodynamics, and then think to themselves, 'Oh good, this is much easier to understand'.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#123670 - 10/05/05 04:28 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
Laren Offline


Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 53
Loc: Australia
I guess what infuriates me is the fact that people who don't even know I exist are trying to dictate to me what I can and can't do with MY life, based on their rotten beliefs...

I really hate being told I can't do something thats within reason...

But if gay marriage was allowed, I wouldn't do it anyway... I personally don't need a ring or pieces of paper to signify my love for another woman. I think the love would speak for itself.
But for some I know it means a great deal to them.

Who are these people to say it's wrong for another?

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#123671 - 10/05/05 11:00 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I have noticed that if you want to start a conversation that will last a long time, make the subject homosexuality. On a continuum, I probably sit on the extreme end of heterosexuality, but it seems homosexuality is of interest to most, myself included. If you are a male, and do not think this applies to you...how many times have you enjoyed a movie with girl on girl action?
This fascination seems to be fairly universal, and ancient. Many cultures have found ways of defining roles for homosexuals. In Rome, if I am correct, it was an accepted part of life. In colonial days, homosexuals were burned with witches. The word "fag" originally refered to kindling wood. That was their role for the "godly" of that period. Native Americans saw them as Medicine Men.
It seems that something so innate in human nature must be accepted in any society that considers itself "enlightened". Whether we choose to express it or not, it is very much part of the very fabric of the human psyche. To try to deny the rights of a particular group, because they represent parts of ourselves we would rather pretend did not exist seems to me to be the height of cruelty.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#123672 - 10/05/05 03:36 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>In colonial days, homosexuals were burned with witches.
>>The word "fag" originally refered to kindling wood.

I once heard that the reason the word faggot (which really means, a bundle of sticks) got associated with homosexuals was not because they were burned, but rather because both were viewed as "fire (trouble) starters".

Off hand I don't even know any burnings in early U.S. settlement days. Hangings are another story.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

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#123673 - 10/06/05 07:59 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Bill_M]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Quote:



Off hand I don't even know any burnings in early U.S. settlement days. Hangings are another story.





I was refering to the Salem witch trials. I heard the "bundle of stickes" and kindling wood reference on a documentary. I wish I could remember the name of it. Granted, if it was on the history channel, there could be an error in their facts. I lost faith in their documentaries when I watched part of their History of Hell, and saw that Billy Graham's daughter seemed to be the main focus. I got tired of laughing, and muttering "bullshit" over and over...oh well.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#123674 - 10/06/05 08:33 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
YoungSoulRebel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 1833
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Quote:

I was refering to the Salem witch trials. I heard the "bundle of stickes" and kindling wood reference on a documentary.




http://www.google.com/search?q=salem+wit...:en-US:official
http://www.salemwitchtrials.com/faqs.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/salem_witches/1.html

Nobody was actually "burned at the stake" during the salem witch triels. At many a witch-trial in Europe, yes, but not in Salem.

I've also noticed that it's very common, not just here, but other online message forums as well, to take a documentary at face-value without checking the "information" spouted in the alloted hour or half-hour (unless, of course, the documentary is by Michael Moor or one of those other dirty, dirty America-hating Liberals who dare to exercise their right to free speech rather than treating the American flag like a Catholic treats a statue of the Virgin Mary) and then start talking like they're an expert on the subject. NEWS FLASH: Documentaries these days are often either very obviously biased (like Supersize Me) or are produced for entertainment value first and information second (like this week-long Penn Gilette special on The History Channel, masquerading as something about Nostradamus).

Check your facts, or you will look stupid when somebody who knows better reads your "info."
_________________________
"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."
- Nora Ephron

"Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college radicals are two-timing punks."
- Abbie Hoffman

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?"
- Charles M Schulz

“One of the great things about young people is that they do question, that they do care deeply about justice, and they they have open minds.”
- Zack de la Rocha

Top
#123675 - 10/06/05 10:16 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: YoungSoulRebel]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Thank you for the links. Very interesting. So...I shouldn't watch Charmed to gain accurate information on witchcraft. Okay, just for McGowan.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#123676 - 10/06/05 10:36 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: YoungSoulRebel]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
I just hate micheal moore because he does exactly what he says hes against, hes just on the left instead of the right. Plus hes told some outright lies, and most of his fans dont seem to care if the info is true or not. The whole NRA=Klu Klux Klan thing especially, how friggin rediculous!

I would invest in getting a copy of penn and tellers bullshit! series sometime, its very very good.

In micheal moore hates america Penn actually brings up how documentaries are biased no matter what, because no one would be able to tell the whole story and show every event of every day. I still like to watch.
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#123677 - 10/06/05 11:29 AM Re: gay marriage [Re: uncleherpe]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Quote:

I still like to watch.




Okay...I admit...I quoted that one sentence just because I like that one sentence. It's funny.

Now to seriously respond to your post. History IS interpretation, no doubt about it. You are right...there are too many sides to every issue, and too many events to choose from, to believe that any one person can put together a 100% accurate description of things. And that doesn't even include our personal biases that we cannot even recognize. Forget putting them aside.
I, for one, also like Micheal Moore. I also know why I like him...I am a long time liberal. I do find myself getting a little more conservative with age, however. Particularly when it comes to social programs that throw money away on ingrates, and breeds a culture of laziness. But, like you said...I still like to watch.
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#123678 - 10/06/05 05:05 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

Quote:

I still like to watch.




Okay...I admit...I quoted that one sentence just because I like that one sentence. It's funny.

Now to seriously respond to your post. History IS interpretation, no doubt about it. You are right...there are too many sides to every issue, and too many events to choose from, to believe that any one person can put together a 100% accurate description of things. And that doesn't even include our personal biases that we cannot even recognize. Forget putting them aside.
I, for one, also like Micheal Moore. I also know why I like him...I am a long time liberal. I do find myself getting a little more conservative with age, however. Particularly when it comes to social programs that throw money away on ingrates, and breeds a culture of laziness. But, like you said...I still like to watch.




hahaaa!

Yeah, I am seriously apposed to most welfare type of programs, I am very liberal on most social issues as well. I guess I would count as a libretarian for the most part, but theres some stuff I disagree with (I am completely for gun control).

I just really cant respect him taking advantage of charlton heston and make him look like an evil man, editing footage from different NRA meetings that were years apart and the stupid thing where he held up the picture of the little girl.

One thing that was hilarious in micheal moore hates america is how he tried to get ahold of mike, in a very 'roger and me' type of way, it was a parody in most ways. They also re interveiw a lot of people from the previous movies, the people from the bank, one of the vets they used for 'sad' footage (guy lost his arms, but is still proud to have served), spokesperson for the NRA explaining why they had the meeting in colorado after columbine, all kinds of stuff.


I think since I cant see every angle, most of the time its best to look at the extreme part of each side, the truth is almost always somewhere in the middle. Its usually more entertaining that way too.
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#123679 - 10/09/05 02:01 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Phenylalanine Offline


Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Michigan
I agree. Some students I've gone to school with have actually experimented sexually after sexual education and have had no idea what it was or what was going on.

Something is lost in transit; You can't leave it up to parents completely because a vast number of parents will not explain anything.

As a side note, my chat about "the birds and the bees" was accompanied by Grey's Anatomy and the DSM-IV.
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#123680 - 10/09/05 07:06 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: uncleherpe]
BlackPhilosopher Offline


Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 100
Loc: A nordic place draped in snow
Quote:

How about someone reccomends not getting married to an idiot? Or getting married to someone that you can deal with? Or waiting a few years before marriage?

That would be much better advice, much more realistic as well.


Gender is just so... meaningless to me.




How about not getting married at all? Is it a sin?

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#123681 - 10/09/05 07:20 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Helliott]
BlackPhilosopher Offline


Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 100
Loc: A nordic place draped in snow
This is off topic, but I should mention that it is quite curious that you have the same avatar as the poster of this thread, Krupa.

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#123682 - 10/09/05 07:23 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: BlackPhilosopher]
BlasphemousOne Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 1655
Loc: Connecticut, USA
That may be because they are both using a stock avatar.

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#123683 - 10/09/05 07:40 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Krupa]
BlackPhilosopher Offline


Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 100
Loc: A nordic place draped in snow
Gay marriage is quite a good dilemma as far as I concern. I'm not surprised by the fact that some people are still bashing on this issue simply because there is something unatural to that. Marriage represents legally the union of two persons. The question is why should two persons want to unite themselves, to procreate nd found a family, no? To populate the world they know? A kind of conquer over the natural elements and the other animals? A plain survival instinct? If marriage is defined like that, then how gay marriage can be justified? Two people of the same sex cannot reproduct, (unless they are asexual, a exception I'm not aware humans are capable of), sure they might be able to grow children from a poor country, in a better way that they would ever expect uf not being adopted by a same sex couple. And how is it different then people who adopt poor children because they are enable to have childrn (Angelina Jolie!!). Ok, but these people are natural exception, and I have difficulty to believe that gays are. But at the extreme, everyone is homosexual, they still have to fuck with the other sexe to breed and make their kind survive, an instinct which will probably be stronger than any sexual taste. And is it possible that any of these homosexual with find no pleasure compare to their necessary sexual aventures with the opposite sex?

Why people who love homosexual sex just doesn't call their homosexual partner friend? Law are for the society, and homesuxal activities cannot make the society last, even more the human race. Why should it be legalized?

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#123684 - 10/10/05 12:59 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: BlackPhilosopher]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

Quote:

How about someone reccomends not getting married to an idiot? Or getting married to someone that you can deal with? Or waiting a few years before marriage?

That would be much better advice, much more realistic as well.


Gender is just so... meaningless to me.




How about not getting married at all? Is it a sin?




thats fine too.theres tons of people I know who shouldnt have gotten married in the first place.
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#123685 - 10/10/05 02:46 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: BlackPhilosopher]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
The answer to your question, assuming it wasn't rhetorical, is that marriage -isn't- defined that way. It may be that most who marry also reproduce, but the elderly, the sterile, and those who simply don't want children are also allowed to marry. Making the ability to biologically reproduce a necessary condition for the legal validity of marriage would be more of a revolution in law than letting homosexuals marry each other. I see no reason why marriage can't also function as a celebration of dedicated carnality (monogamy) and domestic happiness. Being gay, of course, I may be biased. I also see that the question is one on which reasonable people may disagree, but arguments of the "marriage is about reproduction" ilk are nonstarters because they ignore a large number of marriages already recognized as valid.

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#123686 - 10/10/05 04:59 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: Helian]
BlackPhilosopher Offline


Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 100
Loc: A nordic place draped in snow
Quote:

I see no reason why marriage can't also function as a celebration of dedicated carnality (monogamy) and domestic happiness.




How monogamy can be legalized and even more proclaimed as a way of life knowing that no homogenous couple will ever reproduce? At the extreme, this is certainly not viable, since all humans die. Sure it is possible to make children without the copulation of a male and a female. In an Huxley scenario, children are created in a manufacture, just like cars or whatever products. But in such scenario, there is no homosexual monogamy either (In fact, even monogamy is not legal).


Quote:

It may be that most who marry also reproduce, but the elderly, the sterile, and those who simply don't want children are also allowed to marry.




Sure. Maybe that should also be questioned. Maybe marriage is just a promise of sexual exclusivity. I certainly doubt it was its initial definition. But I agree that this is certainly a good definition for our present area.

All in all, I have nothing against gay marriage. But I certainly find a couple which cannot reproduce a social abberation, whatever the cause of this abberation is.

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#123687 - 10/10/05 07:26 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: BlackPhilosopher]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Quote:

How about not getting married at all? Is it a sin?




Yes. Marriage is one of the Sacraments of Christian religion. That mean it is mandatory for every Christian to get married (in order to spawn more Christians)

There is even a punishment reserved for men who died unmarried, according to Christian lore, they are condemned to tie bundles of sand with a rope in Hell for eternity... or something like that.
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#123688 - 10/10/05 08:35 PM Social Aberation? [Re: BlackPhilosopher]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

All in all, I have nothing against gay marriage. But I certainly find a couple which cannot reproduce a social abberation,[sic] whatever the cause of this abberation[sic] is.




WTF? There are many people who marry and do not reproduce. Why should anyone find that to be a social aberation? Why should it be anyone else's business whether a couple procreate or not. (Any variety of couple you want!) If I married now I would not have children, does that make me a social aberation? Foolish, maybe, but an aberation? I think not! It's not like this world has a shortage of people, that's for sure!


Hail Satan!
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#123689 - 10/10/05 11:39 PM Re: gay marriage [Re: BlackPhilosopher]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:



All in all, I have nothing against gay marriage. But I certainly find a couple which cannot reproduce a social abberation, whatever the cause of this abberation is.




arent we as satanists 'socal abberations'?

I think marriage is most of all a promise, but put on paper for all the world and the government to see and recognize. Wanting to be with someone forever is a beautiful thing. Its not super useful or practical, but I still think its sweet. If it has meaning to the two people involved I really dont feel like judging it at all.
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