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#12839 - 10/01/03 04:18 AM Re: Satanist: Agnostic? Athiest? [Re: Wonka]
Bastard_Child Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 765
Loc: Montana, USA
That's a pretty damn good insult! I'll have to remember to use that one in the future.

I'm honored that you would appreciate it!

Although, I briefly considered not doing that, because, "If I dood it, I could get a whippin...I DOOD IT!"

Ain't I a stinker?
BASTARD_Child
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Exanimo ab hostilis.

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#12840 - 10/01/03 04:39 AM Re: Some Points [Re: Bastard_Child]
Dreamwalker Offline


Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 1342
Loc: Colorado Springs
Overall, it seems to me that Mr. LaVey left that decision up to the individual. The reference in God of the Assholes, from Satan Speaks, discusses concepts such as "collective will" and "Jungian constructs" with reference to God. Nonetheless, he seems quite clear on the possibility of some sort of deity, albeit man-made.

Furthermore, in the TSB, there is another quote, beginning with "It is a popular misconception that the Satanist does not believe in god". That may not be exact--I let my daughter borrow my TSB, and it has disappeared into the depths of my teenager's room, where I dare not venture. Still, Mr. LaVey added in there that the satanist merely used the definition that suited him best. That does seem to leave a little wiggle room--note that the origin of said god is not mentioned. I think the definition of god is crucial for these types of communications: if you truly do accept and worship yourself as god, you wouldn't make a very good text-book definition atheist!

I describe myself as atheist for ease of communication, as society's expectations of the word are general enough to suit my purposes. Yet... I believe there is a possibility that there is a god, just as I believe in the possibility of a real Santa Claus. Not bloody likely, and I'm certainly not going to live my life like Santa really will come if I follow a certain course of action. That would be insane! But there is, in theory, some chance that he really does exist. For that matter, it's even possible that we don't exist either, at least the way we think we do. Can't prove that one either. So if you want to split hairs, I could be described as agnostic, I guess. I mean, there is a possibility, no matter how distinct or small, that there is some kind of thing that I would percieve as a deity somewhere in this multiverse, that I am but a free-floating thought, like in Twain's "Mysterious Stranger", and/or there is a guy in a little red coat who does christmasy stuff.

Of course, as you said, it's all a moot point anyway. Just thought that might be mildly interesting.
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Sweetheart of Swank ~Demonic Creamsicle~

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#12841 - 10/01/03 04:55 AM Re: Some Points [Re: Dreamwalker]
Bastard_Child Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 765
Loc: Montana, USA
Furthermore, in the TSB, there is another quote, beginning with "It is a popular misconception that the Satanist does not believe in god".

And a little further down the page we find...
"To the Satanist "God" -by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all-is seen as the balancing force in nature, and not as being concerned with suffering. This powerful force which permeates and balances the universe is far too impersonal to care about the happiness or misery of flesh-and-blood creatures on this ball of dirt upon which we live."

This seems to imply the lack of a diety in the conventional sense of the word, however you wish to define it, as a force is far from being anthropomorphic in nature. It would seem that he was speaking metaphorically as I understand it, and it surprises me that many would disagree with that conclusion.
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Exanimo ab hostilis.

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#12842 - 10/01/03 05:14 AM Re: Some Points [Re: Bastard_Child]
Dreamwalker Offline


Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 1342
Loc: Colorado Springs
Thank you for the rest of the quote!

I understand exactly what you are saying. While I myself do not wholly discount possibilities, I just flat-out don't believe in any other god but me. Certainly not some silly Judeo-Christian deity--that religion makes about as much sense as any Greek myths, and it's even less consistent! (though once again, I find this Jung reference intriguing--it's on my list of books to get.)

But I do see where a few people are coming from--the whole "you have no way of proving/disproving anything" argument. I suspect some of those people may actually be atheists if they were using the socially understood definition.
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Sweetheart of Swank ~Demonic Creamsicle~

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#12843 - 10/01/03 09:50 AM Re: Satanist: Agnostic? Athiest?
Swordsman Offline


Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 1026
Loc: The Netherlands
Exactly how large would that chance be ?

_________________________
'Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity' - Bullet Tooth Tony 'when I die, I will instruct the undertakers to put a bell on my tombstone, just so I can have the pleasure of not getting up when people ring' - Dr. Mossy Lawn

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#12844 - 10/01/03 09:53 AM Re: Back to God.
Swordsman Offline


Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 1026
Loc: The Netherlands
Quote:

That's the mindset I've always had. If (and this is REALLY theoretical) everything the Christians had been saying in the Bible and all the general crap is true, and when the day of raptures comes and Jesus comes before us who were "left behind", I will gladly not bow down. I will gladly walk over to that hole they opened to throw Lucifer into and dive right in




Then I'de say you have the mindset of a braggart or a fool, probably both.

IF what christianity states as true proves out to be true, then going to hell would be the most unsatanic thing that a Satanist could possibly do.

just my two cents
_________________________
'Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity' - Bullet Tooth Tony 'when I die, I will instruct the undertakers to put a bell on my tombstone, just so I can have the pleasure of not getting up when people ring' - Dr. Mossy Lawn

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#12845 - 10/01/03 10:07 AM Re: Back to God. [Re: Swordsman]
BurningJayde Offline


Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 174
Quote:

IF what Christianity states as true proves out to be true, then going to hell would be the most unsatanic thing that a Satanist could possibly do.




Is that so? Very interesting. And how is it not unSatanic to follow the herd into the Heavenly Kingdom where you will be told what you can and can't do? Where you will worship at the whims of a god, whom you can't even respect? There is no room for free thought there...no room for debate, questions...I don't see that as Satanic at all.
IF all of this were true, you know what? It'd be the end of the Satanist and the Satanic era/philosophy. Neither choice is purely Satanic. You will be in a different type herd situation in hell, just as in Heaven. No, we'd all be cleansed of our beliefs and we'd have a new title/label slapped on us.
Those are my thoughts...though I need to just leave this irrelevant topic alone already.






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#12846 - 10/01/03 10:19 AM Re: Back to God. [Re: BurningJayde]
Swordsman Offline


Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 1026
Loc: The Netherlands
Okay... let's play...

when the last revelation comes(hypothetically speaking ofcourse)You'de have two choices according to the christian bible;

1. Go to hell and suffer for the rest of eternity.

2. Go to heaven and be happy for the rest of eternity.

A bit simplified perhaps, but that's the gist of it. Ofcourse, any halfway decent satanist would start taking over the place once he's in heaven, but that's so far in fairy land I won't even discuss that situation.

suffering for the rest of eternity when one could go to heaven seems a bit like counterproductive pride to me, but I'de be happy to welcome other thoughts on this nonsensical little post.
_________________________
'Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity' - Bullet Tooth Tony 'when I die, I will instruct the undertakers to put a bell on my tombstone, just so I can have the pleasure of not getting up when people ring' - Dr. Mossy Lawn

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#12847 - 10/01/03 12:11 PM Re: Back to God. [Re: Swordsman]
Dreamwalker Offline


Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 1342
Loc: Colorado Springs
The Christian god, as described, is malicious and capricious. Who knows when he'll just change his mind and chuck your ass into the lake of fire?

Follow a juvenile egomaniacal deity and hope to maintain his favor, or go with the gentleman? Satan throughout the bible was consistent. I'd much rather take my chances with a being worthy of respect, a stable being, one who isn't a flaming homicidal baby-killing whimsical thug.

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Sweetheart of Swank ~Demonic Creamsicle~

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#12848 - 10/01/03 12:28 PM Re: Back to God. [Re: Dreamwalker]
Swordsman Offline


Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 1026
Loc: The Netherlands
we're talking about a situation in which God is what the christians would like to believe he is, not what he would be if he were for real.

What you describe would be the truth if god were for real, which I think is quite unlikely

This situation defenitely wins first prize for ''The most ridicilous hypothetical situation of the year'' in the Swordsman awards

unless someone can think of something more ridicilous than christianity? come on, give it your best shot.
_________________________
'Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity' - Bullet Tooth Tony 'when I die, I will instruct the undertakers to put a bell on my tombstone, just so I can have the pleasure of not getting up when people ring' - Dr. Mossy Lawn

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#12849 - 10/01/03 12:33 PM Re: Back to God. [Re: Swordsman]
Anonymous
Unregistered


How about hinduism, where you worship half a million gods, and smell like a bum and sit on your dick until it goes numb to please them

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#12850 - 10/01/03 12:41 PM Re: Satanist: Agnostic? Athiest? [Re: Malin_Wolf]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here's the defintion of ignorance as defined by a dictionary. If you insist on using your own interpretation, than you are ignorant yourself:

"A willful neglect or refusal to acquire knowledge which one may acquire and it is his duty to have."

Since the knowledge can't be aquired for sure, the fact that he's borderlining between sides is not ignorant. You picking a side might prove more ignorant at one point, because you will be biased by opinions of one side, so even when all the facts are presented you will make the wrong choice.

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#12851 - 10/01/03 12:54 PM Re: Back to God.
Swordsman Offline


Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 1026
Loc: The Netherlands
equally ridicilous, but at least Hindoeists have never burned people at stakes.

I'll take a dick-sitting hindoeist over a bible-thumping christian anyday
_________________________
'Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity' - Bullet Tooth Tony 'when I die, I will instruct the undertakers to put a bell on my tombstone, just so I can have the pleasure of not getting up when people ring' - Dr. Mossy Lawn

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#12852 - 10/01/03 12:59 PM Re: Back to God. [Re: Swordsman]
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
Quote:

but at least Hindoeists have never burned people at stakes



Yes, they did. When a man died, his wife was burned alive together with his body. But I am not sure, when this was abolished.
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#12853 - 10/01/03 01:05 PM Re: Satanist: Agnostic? Athiest? [Re: Bastard_Child]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Correction, I make decisions on the most likely probability. That's why when viewing christianity, I see at as a very unlikely probability, therefore I live my life as a Satanist. HOWEVER, I still keep an open mind and give EQUAL EVALUATION to further evidence if such were to present itself that would change this probability in favor of christianity, then I would make the shift. Every agnostic decision is made that way, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING in your life. But if you just pick a side, and put a curtain on the rest of the world (btw it is quite obvious to me and to many other people on this board that you have already done so), you will end up locked in a little corner with no escape.

PS: Recognize that LaVey was just a wise man, and not a supreme entity that was wiser they you ever will. He should be given respect only as such, and you should keep in mind that you can be better then him by continuing where he left off (like a student succeeding he's master).

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