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#133588 - 11/22/05 08:32 PM Worship of the Master
ribbit Offline


Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 122
One of the things that sticks in my craw is the sycophancy that surrounds everything that the late Mr. LaVey did - his personal tastes and quirks, his choice of clothes and hobbies, even the sort of guns he collected.

Come on, people. He was a man. A very intelligent and creative man. He founded an organization that a number of people find useful. He combined a number of cultural and philosophical threads with his own original creations in a way which touches a chord in a number of people and helps them accomplish their goals. That's all worthy of respect. But he never claimed - to the best of my knowledge, and please correct me if I'm wrong - to be anyone's deity but his own.

His hobbies and fashion sense, sexual quirks and taste in music or food, weren't The Sacred Blood of Jesus Painted on the Nails of the True Cross. They were part of a human being's makeup, products of his experience, his upbringing and his genetics. They might be interesting, but the nature of a number of people's worship seems more in place in a Catholic monastery that obsessively meditates on every detail of the life of some obscure saint. Snakes are interesting (if very simple) creatures. If you want a snake, by all means get one. If you like guns, keep a closetful. If you like to shave your head, grow a goatee and wear black, then more power to you. If you think women in stockings are hot, then knock yourself out.

But if you do any or all of these not because you want to but because a dead guy enjoyed them, then I have to think something went wrong somewhere along the line. At least worshipping the Muslim god gets you promises of rivers of wine and thousand year orgasms.

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#133589 - 11/22/05 08:58 PM Re: Worship of the Master [Re: ribbit]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
>>One of the things that sticks in my craw is the
>>sycophancy that surrounds everything that the late Mr.
>>LaVey did - his personal tastes and quirks, his choice of
>>clothes and hobbies, even the sort of guns he collected.

I can't say that LaVey never influenced my tastes outside of Satanism. Some of his essays, interviews, and musical recordings got me curious into looking up certain things that I probably wouldn't have ended up looking into otherwise. In some cases I ended up sharing a great admiration for something he praised (e.g., The Marx Brothers). In some other cases, exploring what he liked eventually led me to discovering different things that I eventually embraced (e.g., certain forms of pre-rock music).

Still, I do see your point. I've seen some Satanist gatherings where a curious number of attendees were donning the same exact 1940s outfits. It's one thing to dress nice, but the sight of so many of them looking the same made me raise an eyebrow.

Likewise, I take no shame in saying that there are some personal views of LaVey that I disagree with (certain essays in Satan Speaks, for example). Of course, this isn't the same as disagreeing with Satanism. But I do have to wonder if there are a few out there who have convinced themselves that they have to take all 5 of those books in as fundamental dogma.
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#133590 - 11/22/05 10:12 PM Re: Worship of the Master [Re: Bill_M]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
I can clearly see your point on this subject. What IM left wondering is after had read it, do you have any idol worship in you at all. This is not something I practice as strong now, as compared to my teens, and twenties. I would dress the part to what entertained me. One of my favorite bands was and still is DANZIG. It killed me when I couldn't grow the "mutton chops" beard like Glenn Danzig. I see hero worship, healthy and inspirational. Just out of curiosity why do's it bother you if someone has a general passion for Anton Szandor Lavey, and wants to take on his attributes. After I read The Satanic Bible I wanted To know evrything about the man who wrote a Book that described me in its pages. Is there a line between admiration and obsession, yes of course, but the Satanist allready knows this. Most Satanists I know all have individual likes and dislikes, each with personal influences, not really concerned about the latest fashion trend or what famous Satanist is dressing like. Taking on someone's identity as their own is just ludicrous. I have seen many people with the same identity problems you were explaining in your post. For an example "Wearing all black, Hair coloring, Nail polish, Shaving The Head!". Well, I hope this continues, because these people are no threat to anyone but themselves and they are responsible for there own actions not me. A lot of these people are young and want to express themselves, this is healthy behavior. Hell, Dr. Lavey was a hell of a ladies man, and so was James Bond for that matter so why wouldn't young men want to look like them. I have never personally been around a lot of Satanists at one time for any kind of gathering, So I cant compare a Satanic wardrobe per say. I really enjoyed watching The Herd dress like Marilyn Manson, "shocking!"
"Oh and if you dont mind. Can you put me in touch with that muslim god handing out thousand year orgasms!"


Edited by teir (11/22/05 11:21 PM)
_________________________
´┐ŻLove is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.´┐Ż
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#133591 - 11/22/05 10:29 PM Re: Worship of the Master [Re: ribbit]
Mjollnir Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1416
Loc: Gone
Quote:

because a dead guy enjoyed them




Anton Szandor LaVey was a great man. I'm sorry you feel the need to refer to him as "a dead guy."

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#133592 - 11/22/05 10:36 PM Re: Worship of the Master [Re: Mjollnir]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
I dont think great is a good enough word for Anton Szandor Lavey. Only one word.
Elite
_________________________
´┐ŻLove is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.´┐Ż
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#133593 - 11/22/05 11:11 PM BUT ! :) [Re: Mjollnir]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
it's true that it is sad, and for those like me who have joined the COS after his Death, without even have exchanged some words.

Personally, I think that someone is called dead once this person has been forgotten.

But today, whoooo's the man ?!! >>>>>>>(see attachment)

People have to think about this worthy successor, it's time !

Hail the Man !


Attachments
312961-Gotherotica.gif (117 downloads)

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#133594 - 11/23/05 12:06 AM Re: Worship of the Master [Re: Mjollnir]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
Ditto. I do get what you are saying. I often ignore people when they get on their "riding the coat tails of a dead man" trip.

It isn't just with Mr. LaVey, it is with anyone. Elvis, Nixon, JFK, whatever. Same thing.

There is a difference between, living in accordance with someone elseĺs idea's, and LIVING someone ELSE.


By the way. Does anyone know if the great Dok wore tighty whity's, or Boxer shorts? Pastel, or hospital?
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#133595 - 11/23/05 12:15 AM Re: Worship of the Master [Re: Bill_M]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Quote:

But I do have to wonder if there are a few out there who have convinced themselves that they have to take all 5 of those books in as fundamental dogma.




Seems that way.

All are good reading, but there is no mandate to mimic the Doktor's exact tastes. In fact, I'm more impressed by people who have their own unique and interesting tastes.

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#133596 - 11/23/05 12:30 AM Re: Worship of the Master [Re: Lust]
kephas Offline


Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 91
True,you don't have to copy someone to the bone...but I think one should always strive to have a "look" about them.I mean,if they have a style of dress that empowers them(why not)then they should
use and combine great asthetics.When I read this in TSB I understood(looking back now)this to be the act of lesser magic.I have used this many times and it works,time and time again.Wheather it works because I think it will or because of magic?Well,I believe the outcome is too desirable now,its just something I do and for me it "works."
HS!
Kephas

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#133597 - 11/23/05 01:01 AM Re: Worship of the Master [Re: man_mind]
Mjollnir Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1416
Loc: Gone
Quote:

There is a difference between, living in accordance with someone elseĺs idea's, and LIVING someone ELSE.





Yes, one must be unique to be his own God. One cannot get by wearing the trappings of another.

However, in the case of Anton Szandor LaVey, if one picks up some of his trappings in tribute to the founder of this great religion, I don't see it as a problem.

I have my own personal ways that I pay tribute to him. If he had never written The Satanic Bible or founded the Church of Satan, I doubt any of us would have the Satanic freedom to practice our religion that we do today. In fact, there probably still wouldn't BE an official Satanism at all.

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#133598 - 11/23/05 01:16 AM Re: Worship of the Master [Re: ribbit]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Quote:

One of the things that sticks in my craw is the sycophancy that surrounds everything that the late Mr. LaVey did - his personal tastes and quirks, his choice of clothes and hobbies, even the sort of guns he collected.




Why does this bother you?

The best way to lead is by example.

If you don't like the way people behave, blaze your own trail. Become an example by being completely Satanic in a truly individual fashion.

That said, a lot of the things the Doktor enjoyed are alien to many of us today, and as he said, have become truly 'occult.' It is natural for those who wish to divorce themselves from contemporary culture and follow the Doktor's example in that way. But most real Satanists I know actually don't mimic the Doktor. Many will find one of his tastes particularly to their taste, and that specific taste will be evident, but I think you'd find that in real life, most Satanists have a style all their own.

I don't have any pets at the moment.

I do have one gun.

Right now, my head isn't shaved at all, and I almost never shave it to the skin.

I can't really grow a full goatee, though I do sport a moustache. So does my dad. If I could grow a proper goatee, I might...but I'd rather have lambchops...which are awesome. Or a full beard. Maybe when I'm 40.

While girls in stockings are undeniably hot, you won't find me chasing them terribly often. And I sure as Hell wouldn't give a rat's ass if one peed herself--if anything I'd laugh at her. I actually am not a fan of urine. It's a joke among my friends that the word p-i-s-s offends me and makes me cringe.

I don't dress like a gangster. Sometimes I dress like a trucker (Or at least I try...). Actually, lately, when someone speaks to me in a store, they often ask me if I caught any deer this year. (Seriously, it's happened like 4 times already this season.)

I actually really like techno music, especially house; but I also like a lot of classic rock from the 70s. I like the kind of music the Doktor liked, I find it fun and charming, but I don't listen to it regularly.

My right hand man will always be a man.

I drive a Toyota. I'm comfortable with that. My next car will be some sort of truck or van from the 80s. I really like Blazers and Ramchargers for some reason.

I think more people should walk, whenever they can.

I rarely lie; I pride myself on personal integrity.

I do generally shower (though I've been known to go a few days without one).

I also agree with the Doktor on a lot of things. For some of the list of items above, I pulled out "Satan Speaks," and I enjoyed flipping through it again. Again, I said, "hey, that's a damn good point," more than once. I enjoyed anew the character of a great man who is very familiar to me but whom I never met.

Anyway, when you're getting all worked up over what you think you're seeing among Satanists, remember where you're seeing it. Online. Many of the most individualistic Satanists I know rarely post on this board. I know a ton of folks who are anything but LaVey clones, but who call themselves Satanists, and fit my definition to a 't.'

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#133599 - 11/23/05 01:44 AM Re: Worship of the Master [Re: ribbit]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State

We must always remember that LaVey was a great human being, but a human being nonetheless, and that we aren't looking for divine beings or celestial saviors anyway. The key is to admire LaVey's achievements; learn from his observations; laugh at his jokes; use his interests, ideas, and theories in ways that will enrich our own lives; delve into his philosophy; test his theories; and disagree with and acknowledge the stuff he did, believed, or said that doesn't jive with us.

His thoughts and hobbies should never act as a replacement for one's own, nor should one's sense of self or purpose depend on LaVey being more than human and more than who he truly was. Anyone who does this, of course, obviously has missed something, or needs some therapy. Besides, apologetics requires so much rabbit-like twitchy paranoia and nervousness, I'd prefer to just leave it to the Christians.

Likewise, it really sticks in my craw when people go the opposite direction and minimize LaVey---calling him "Anton" or "Tony," whiningly repeating negative legends or gossip about him, complaining about who he "stole" ideas from, complaining about he didn't say anything wild and new in the Satanic Bible, tweaking out about whatever, becoming disillusioned after expecting absurd miracles, scoffing at his actual abilities and talents, yada yada, the indignities run the gamut. Neither extreme gives LaVey his due.
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#133600 - 11/23/05 02:28 AM Re: Worship of the Master [Re: ribbit]
Maya Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 1447
Loc: New England
Like others here, I don't see anything particularly wrong with admiring and even being influenced by someone. After all, it is only a person with a poor image of him/herself that is unable to actively admire another. However, I do think that hero-worship and imitation is un-Satanic. Satanism is a religion (or rather the religion) that glorifies the individual. If one insists on ripping off others to construct an identity for oneself, one will end up as nothing but a sum of other people's parts.

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#133601 - 11/23/05 02:37 AM Re: Worship of the Master [Re: Mjollnir]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
Absolutely. I concur.

It is a matter of understanding the difference that will have the biggest effect.

Stand out one way or the other.
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#133602 - 11/23/05 04:57 AM Spare Us [Re: ribbit]
Mason_Rust Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 1780
Loc: Michigan, USA
Oh Please!

It's not worship, it's discussion!

This board is for discussion of Satanism and The Church of Satan. It should be expected by everyone who comes here that the person who started it all might get some threads posted about him from time to time.

LaVey isn't just some "dead guy" as you so rudely put it, but an extremely interesting, bold, and wise man. Of course people are going to want to chew the fat on what his likes and dislikes were...especially if you find that you already share one or more of them.

Furthermore, there is a great history involved as to how and why The CoS became what it is today, and many of LaVey's "quirks" are part of the lesser magic that made it possible. Why wouldn't a Satanist want to know about it?

If making a post on a message board, or even an entire thread is the equivalent of worship in your mind, I pity whatever it is you worship. What poor homage you must pay to it!
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