One of the things that sticks in my craw is the sycophancy that surrounds everything that the late Mr. LaVey did - his personal tastes and quirks, his choice of clothes and hobbies, even the sort of guns he collected.

Come on, people. He was a man. A very intelligent and creative man. He founded an organization that a number of people find useful. He combined a number of cultural and philosophical threads with his own original creations in a way which touches a chord in a number of people and helps them accomplish their goals. That's all worthy of respect. But he never claimed - to the best of my knowledge, and please correct me if I'm wrong - to be anyone's deity but his own.

His hobbies and fashion sense, sexual quirks and taste in music or food, weren't The Sacred Blood of Jesus Painted on the Nails of the True Cross. They were part of a human being's makeup, products of his experience, his upbringing and his genetics. They might be interesting, but the nature of a number of people's worship seems more in place in a Catholic monastery that obsessively meditates on every detail of the life of some obscure saint. Snakes are interesting (if very simple) creatures. If you want a snake, by all means get one. If you like guns, keep a closetful. If you like to shave your head, grow a goatee and wear black, then more power to you. If you think women in stockings are hot, then knock yourself out.

But if you do any or all of these not because you want to but because a dead guy enjoyed them, then I have to think something went wrong somewhere along the line. At least worshipping the Muslim god gets you promises of rivers of wine and thousand year orgasms.

>>One of the things that sticks in my craw is the
>>sycophancy that surrounds everything that the late Mr.
>>LaVey did - his personal tastes and quirks, his choice of
>>clothes and hobbies, even the sort of guns he collected.

I can't say that LaVey never influenced my tastes outside of Satanism. Some of his essays, interviews, and musical recordings got me curious into looking up certain things that I probably wouldn't have ended up looking into otherwise. In some cases I ended up sharing a great admiration for something he praised (e.g., The Marx Brothers). In some other cases, exploring what he liked eventually led me to discovering different things that I eventually embraced (e.g., certain forms of pre-rock music).

Still, I do see your point. I've seen some Satanist gatherings where a curious number of attendees were donning the same exact 1940s outfits. It's one thing to dress nice, but the sight of so many of them looking the same made me raise an eyebrow.

Likewise, I take no shame in saying that there are some personal views of LaVey that I disagree with (certain essays in Satan Speaks, for example). Of course, this isn't the same as disagreeing with Satanism. But I do have to wonder if there are a few out there who have convinced themselves that they have to take all 5 of those books in as fundamental dogma.

I can clearly see your point on this subject. What IM left wondering is after had read it, do you have any idol worship in you at all. This is not something I practice as strong now, as compared to my teens, and twenties. I would dress the part to what entertained me. One of my favorite bands was and still is DANZIG. It killed me when I couldn't grow the "mutton chops" beard like Glenn Danzig. I see hero worship, healthy and inspirational. Just out of curiosity why do's it bother you if someone has a general passion for Anton Szandor Lavey, and wants to take on his attributes. After I read The Satanic Bible I wanted To know evrything about the man who wrote a Book that described me in its pages. Is there a line between admiration and obsession, yes of course, but the Satanist allready knows this. Most Satanists I know all have individual likes and dislikes, each with personal influences, not really concerned about the latest fashion trend or what famous Satanist is dressing like. Taking on someone's identity as their own is just ludicrous. I have seen many people with the same identity problems you were explaining in your post. For an example "Wearing all black, Hair coloring, Nail polish, Shaving The Head!". Well, I hope this continues, because these people are no threat to anyone but themselves and they are responsible for there own actions not me. A lot of these people are young and want to express themselves, this is healthy behavior. Hell, Dr. Lavey was a hell of a ladies man, and so was James Bond for that matter so why wouldn't young men want to look like them. I have never personally been around a lot of Satanists at one time for any kind of gathering, So I cant compare a Satanic wardrobe per say. I really enjoyed watching The Herd dress like Marilyn Manson, "shocking!"
"Oh and if you dont mind. Can you put me in touch with that muslim god handing out thousand year orgasms!"

I dont think great is a good enough word for Anton Szandor Lavey. Only one word.
Elite

it's true that it is sad, and for those like me who have joined the COS after his Death, without even have exchanged some words.

Personally, I think that someone is called dead once this person has been forgotten.

But today, whoooo's the man ?!! >>>>>>>(see attachment)

People have to think about this worthy successor, it's time !

Hail the Man !

Ditto. I do get what you are saying. I often ignore people when they get on their "riding the coat tails of a dead man" trip.

It isn't just with Mr. LaVey, it is with anyone. Elvis, Nixon, JFK, whatever. Same thing.

There is a difference between, living in accordance with someone else’s idea's, and LIVING someone ELSE.


By the way. Does anyone know if the great Dok wore tighty whity's, or Boxer shorts? Pastel, or hospital?

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But I do have to wonder if there are a few out there who have convinced themselves that they have to take all 5 of those books in as fundamental dogma.

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Seems that way.

All are good reading, but there is no mandate to mimic the Doktor's exact tastes. In fact, I'm more impressed by people who have their own unique and interesting tastes.

True,you don't have to copy someone to the bone...but I think one should always strive to have a "look" about them.I mean,if they have a style of dress that empowers them(why not)then they should
use and combine great asthetics.When I read this in TSB I understood(looking back now)this to be the act of lesser magic.I have used this many times and it works,time and time again.Wheather it works because I think it will or because of magic?Well,I believe the outcome is too desirable now,its just something I do and for me it "works."
HS!
Kephas

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There is a difference between, living in accordance with someone else’s idea's, and LIVING someone ELSE.

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Yes, one must be unique to be his own God. One cannot get by wearing the trappings of another.

However, in the case of Anton Szandor LaVey, if one picks up some of his trappings in tribute to the founder of this great religion, I don't see it as a problem.

I have my own personal ways that I pay tribute to him. If he had never written The Satanic Bible or founded the Church of Satan, I doubt any of us would have the Satanic freedom to practice our religion that we do today. In fact, there probably still wouldn't BE an official Satanism at all.

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One of the things that sticks in my craw is the sycophancy that surrounds everything that the late Mr. LaVey did - his personal tastes and quirks, his choice of clothes and hobbies, even the sort of guns he collected.

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Why does this bother you?

The best way to lead is by example.

If you don't like the way people behave, blaze your own trail. Become an example by being completely Satanic in a truly individual fashion.

That said, a lot of the things the Doktor enjoyed are alien to many of us today, and as he said, have become truly 'occult.' It is natural for those who wish to divorce themselves from contemporary culture and follow the Doktor's example in that way. But most real Satanists I know actually don't mimic the Doktor. Many will find one of his tastes particularly to their taste, and that specific taste will be evident, but I think you'd find that in real life, most Satanists have a style all their own.

I don't have any pets at the moment.

I do have one gun.

Right now, my head isn't shaved at all, and I almost never shave it to the skin.

I can't really grow a full goatee, though I do sport a moustache. So does my dad. If I could grow a proper goatee, I might...but I'd rather have lambchops...which are awesome. Or a full beard. Maybe when I'm 40.

While girls in stockings are undeniably hot, you won't find me chasing them terribly often. And I sure as Hell wouldn't give a rat's ass if one peed herself--if anything I'd laugh at her. I actually am not a fan of urine. It's a joke among my friends that the word p-i-s-s offends me and makes me cringe.

I don't dress like a gangster. Sometimes I dress like a trucker (Or at least I try...). Actually, lately, when someone speaks to me in a store, they often ask me if I caught any deer this year. (Seriously, it's happened like 4 times already this season.)

I actually really like techno music, especially house; but I also like a lot of classic rock from the 70s. I like the kind of music the Doktor liked, I find it fun and charming, but I don't listen to it regularly.

My right hand man will always be a man.

I drive a Toyota. I'm comfortable with that. My next car will be some sort of truck or van from the 80s. I really like Blazers and Ramchargers for some reason.

I think more people should walk, whenever they can.

I rarely lie; I pride myself on personal integrity.

I do generally shower (though I've been known to go a few days without one).

I also agree with the Doktor on a lot of things. For some of the list of items above, I pulled out "Satan Speaks," and I enjoyed flipping through it again. Again, I said, "hey, that's a damn good point," more than once. I enjoyed anew the character of a great man who is very familiar to me but whom I never met.

Anyway, when you're getting all worked up over what you think you're seeing among Satanists, remember where you're seeing it. Online. Many of the most individualistic Satanists I know rarely post on this board. I know a ton of folks who are anything but LaVey clones, but who call themselves Satanists, and fit my definition to a 't.'

We must always remember that LaVey was a great human being, but a human being nonetheless, and that we aren't looking for divine beings or celestial saviors anyway. The key is to admire LaVey's achievements; learn from his observations; laugh at his jokes; use his interests, ideas, and theories in ways that will enrich our own lives; delve into his philosophy; test his theories; and disagree with and acknowledge the stuff he did, believed, or said that doesn't jive with us.

His thoughts and hobbies should never act as a replacement for one's own, nor should one's sense of self or purpose depend on LaVey being more than human and more than who he truly was. Anyone who does this, of course, obviously has missed something, or needs some therapy. Besides, apologetics requires so much rabbit-like twitchy paranoia and nervousness, I'd prefer to just leave it to the Christians.

Likewise, it really sticks in my craw when people go the opposite direction and minimize LaVey---calling him "Anton" or "Tony," whiningly repeating negative legends or gossip about him, complaining about who he "stole" ideas from, complaining about he didn't say anything wild and new in the Satanic Bible, tweaking out about whatever, becoming disillusioned after expecting absurd miracles, scoffing at his actual abilities and talents, yada yada, the indignities run the gamut. Neither extreme gives LaVey his due.

Like others here, I don't see anything particularly wrong with admiring and even being influenced by someone. After all, it is only a person with a poor image of him/herself that is unable to actively admire another. However, I do think that hero-worship and imitation is un-Satanic. Satanism is a religion (or rather the religion) that glorifies the individual. If one insists on ripping off others to construct an identity for oneself, one will end up as nothing but a sum of other people's parts.

Absolutely. I concur.

It is a matter of understanding the difference that will have the biggest effect.

Stand out one way or the other.

Oh Please!

It's not worship, it's discussion!

This board is for discussion of Satanism and The Church of Satan. It should be expected by everyone who comes here that the person who started it all might get some threads posted about him from time to time.

LaVey isn't just some "dead guy" as you so rudely put it, but an extremely interesting, bold, and wise man. Of course people are going to want to chew the fat on what his likes and dislikes were...especially if you find that you already share one or more of them.

Furthermore, there is a great history involved as to how and why The CoS became what it is today, and many of LaVey's "quirks" are part of the lesser magic that made it possible. Why wouldn't a Satanist want to know about it?

If making a post on a message board, or even an entire thread is the equivalent of worship in your mind, I pity whatever it is you worship. What poor homage you must pay to it!

It could be that it's one of those things which changes with age. At 18 one's tastes are still in flux. Personal style is something that hasn't really developed yet. And while the world is full of arrogant teenagers it's short on self confident ones. At that point in their lives people model themselves on people whome they admire. Later on you develop your own personal style and gain a little more confidence in yourself. It's only when this natural process gets stuck in the early stages that it becomes pathological.

I don't disagree with the greatness. But he breathed his last several years ago. So did Mark Twain, Chaka Zulu and Galileo.

Read: Sychophants Unite.


Think about: Why, if one is secure in oneself, would one be worried or even give a shit about the feelings of others?


Self-awareness, kiddies. It may be a bitch, but it is the only thing that really matters.


Y~

Showing some interest in what Dr. LaVey was into does not constitute worship. I have long been fascinated by his life adventures pre and post CoS, especially the circus and carnival stuff. But I have no ambition to follow in his footsteps in this regard. In fact, the only thing I share with him is perhaps his taste in women, but that is a coincidence. As Magister Rose points out in Confessions of a LaVey Lackey , there is a big difference between respect and worship.

After reading your post, I took a deep breath, counted to five
and read other's responses to your post. Everything that
needs to be said about your post has already been very well
said.

Except "go piss up a rope". No one has suggested you do
that yet. I'd like to take this opportunity to invite you to do so
at your leisure.

You obviously misinterpret some posts fundamentally.

There are a number of points that you should not forget & on the danger of causing one or the other redundancy, I will explain those aspects that I consider of prior relevance to you:

The Doktor has encouraged to embrace one's own personal
& individual tastes & preferences. He himself has been
the most impressive living example.

Simply copying our Founder entirely would therefore mean
to completely dismiss this very basic concept. Besides,
I can't think about any individual that I personally know
who really attempts copying the Doktor.

It is not surprising that many Satanists share certain
aspects of his, since it is known that he used to have
a very exquisite taste, often favouring standards of
quality that had been forgotten by most, even in his times.

I have found a number of aspects that I personally feel
are appealing & see no reason why I should not adopt
certain elements. In fact, I have even enjoyed them before
I was familiar with Dr. LaVeys vita. At the same time,
there are of course a number of points, in which my tastes
differ from the Doktor's. While he had a certain dislike
for the Rock in general & extreme sub-genres in particular,
these make out an essential part of the music that I listen
to. And this is just one example.

My fascination with the Doktor results more from the brilliance in thought that he displays than from the cars that he drove & the pets he had. Nevertheless, you can't separate the 2 aspects.
His life is the perfect application of Satanic principles in the real world.

Hence, his achievements should be honoured, not to be confused with worshipped, as you put it, but about giving respect where respect is due.

Hail Daimon Szandor!

The only thing more wretched than wanting your hero to be a god -- is wanting him to be just a man. It shows all the resentment of a robust, larger-than-life personality you'd expect from someone who wasn't and couldn't be. We live in a society where people are made to think they deserve equal respect (which means: no one gets more than they do) just for being "a man". We don't subscribe to that view here.

Anton Szandor LaVey was an outstanding personality; that's what we're celebrating here.

>>I would dress the part to what entertained me. One of
>>my favorite bands was and still is DANZIG. It killed
>>me when I couldn't grow the "mutton chops" beard like
>>Glenn Danzig.

I think one's personal style will inevitably be influenced by some others. Nobody's 100% original. Even the most exotic or original sounding musicians, for example, still had their share of musical influences. Similarly a Satanist can incorporate different elements into his or her own personal aesthetic, perhaps with striking results if the sources seem very unconvential or forgotten in today's world. As LaVey said, "imitate, but never rip-off".

>>I see hero worship, healthy and inspirational.

While being one's own god is the Satanic way to go, I say that surely a sin like idolatry can't be all that unsatanic. Religions treat it as a sin because they can't otherwise compete with competition. I sure have my share of "idols", talented people who have created their own identity and mark in this world.

The real problem I see are those who get mixed up in the delusion that they own their idol ("This new album sucks! I hate him! He needs to write like this.") or take everything on a personal level ("I love Sting's music, therefore I have to help save the rainforest").

Perfect point. It sheds light onto something I pretty much overlooked and didn't think to discuss. But, you're right that there is also too much of a tendency to "equalize" everyone and to reduce the status of truly admirable and outstanding people. My intent is never to do that, because I do believe that outstanding people deserve praise and due respect for being elite.

What I find far more interesting is why this bothers you at all.

"Choose your masters wisely," was a very useful piece of advice I remember from the Doktor.

Imitating someone great is not only the sincerest form of flattery but, by doing so, sometimes you learn something you might have otherwised missed.

Imitation is also the manner in which we learn a great deal of what we truly come to understand.

The Doktor imitated many people - very openly - whom he admired. The Secret Life of a Satanist goes into great detail on his mentors and role models.

As a consequence he mastered many skills and then put them to good use in expressing his sense of aesthetics.

One of the results of this is what you see before you: a meeting place for followers of the religion he created!

It takes a great deal of personal confidence to rise above being concerned with whether others judge you as "worshipping" or "imitating" another person.

However it is the best way to really learn what life has to offer, in my humble opinion.

Very well put, Magister.

Imitating someone great is not only the sincerest form of flattery but, by doing so, sometimes you learn something you might have otherwised missed.

Indeed. For an analogy, this is exactly why every chess master has studied the games and every move of former masters.

Studying the "masters" who came before you is one of the key elements to becoming a master yourself.

The key is, we stratify ourselves everyday.

Are you smart enough to choose the best masters for you to study.¤

¤(A question for the board. Obviously, not directed at Magister Nemo.)

Thank you, Magister.

I think if someone actually finds they are all that different and disagreeable with our Founder, they are in the wrong place (and not more Satanic than the rest of us).

It never ceases to amaze me to see these people champion The Satanic Bible and The Church of Satan on one hand, then act as if its Author and Founder is of little consequence on the other.

Makes one wonder just what are they doing here or there.

On occasion, there are those who reveal themselves in this world, who truly are above and beyond the rest of their human counterparts. Usually the world cannot abide their greatness. Out of envy, jealousy, and a stubborness to realize there are actually those better than themselves, people either try to convince whomever that these outstanding individuals are in reality nothing, or will outrightly attack their character or person.

Magus LaVey will forever be loved and celebrated...and there will always be those of us who are deeply loyal to him. And for those worthy, I'm sure he'd say the feeling was mutual.

Indeed, there is a certain resonance with LaVey's personal tastes and style among quite a few people out there and I don't appreciate the spirit of things either.
And as said earlier, it's much more interesting and stimulating to see people develop their own styles instead of adopting (and adapting to) a pre-existing package.

Actually, the whole 1940's style reminds me of the clothes the Haredim (ultra-orthodox religionists) here wear. It's like a uniform...

But as the saying goes, on taste and scent...

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Makes one wonder just what are they doing here or there.

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Yes, especially when the original author of this thread is not even a CoS member. It seems rather foolish to post a thread like this on a Satanic message board and expect a positive response. Even though I got the general "gist" of what he was saying, the way it was presented left a bad taste in my mouth. It seems he is trying to water down the greatness of Anton Szandor LaVey, turning him into just another "dead guy."

As far as I am concerned, Anton Szandor LaVey was/is the Master.

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So did Mark Twain, Chaka Zulu and Galileo.

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Yes. But they didn't create Satanism or the Church of Satan.

They didn't found the great religion that is celebrated here in this forum.

You don't deserve the valuable development you would receive from my rebuttal to your statement. You probably wouldn't want it anyway--since it was not your idea, but one of my "sycophantic" approach. Good luck. You're going to need it.

Also, I can see self-preservation is an instinct you do not possess, in referring to the Honorable Doktor as "a dead guy." I'd cut back on that shit if I were you--but since I'm not, by all means, please proceed.

I get the same sensation from reading your post as I do hearing some environmentalist with nothing whatsoever to offer to the development of the world, slinging shit at "the system" in general for some fucking chipmunk dying somewhere. People with much to offer rarely begin conversations like this. Produce your superiority or blow me.

Like the Doktor wisely wrote, "My justification for the establishment of a Satanic aesthetic is my ability to perform and function in such a capacity. Let those who would challenge me produce their superiority in those realms."

Speaking of aesthetics, what kind of screen name is "ribbit"? Where's your avatar? If you're such an authority on Satanic virtues, why aren't you a member and in competition?

I think what you most likely refer to are views expressed in the books The Devil's Notebook and Satan Speaks!. It is implicit in these books that many of the essays they contain are not Satanic dogma but personal views of Dr. LaVey. He was entitled to those, no? They do not have an entire page disclaiming that they are his views; any Satanist worth a damn ought to be able to figure that much out on his own.

Yet why did he write them, then? Look at the Church of Satan active membership application; a great many of the questions it contains ask personal opinions and views. Why do you suppose that is? Does it matter so much what books are your favorites, or is it why you favor them that is significant? In any of Dr. LaVey's personal opinion pieces, does he fail to convey why he felt this way, or the basis of his opinions? There is much to be gained from understanding why he thought this way. Tell me, do you think it is more important that Dr. LaVey disliked pantihose and favored garters, or is it the methods of attraction, the significance behind why women wear these things and the way he perceived them that is of issue?

It is reasonable to believe that at the time he wrote these essays, Dr. LaVey was considerably older and wiser than most of the people who will read what I write today. In a lifetime of vital existence, much insight is gained; look even now at the Priesthood, most of whom are younger than Dr. LaVey was when he wrote these essays, and consider whether even they do not have much to offer those who will learn. It is not physical age, but the amount of time one has had to to learn of the world through vital existence. I can readily state that I have gained exponentially by what I've absorbed from those with more knowledge than myself, Dr. LaVey included. How many brilliant book have I read, excellent movies have I watched, beautiful pieces of music have I taken into myself, through what I've taken from what Dr. LaVey wrote? How many Satanists would likely have stumbled upon The Circus of Dr. Lao or Freaks, both of which are very likely among the favorite books and movies of many present, if Dr. LaVey had not "discovered" them and shared with us why he found them so magical?

As for imitation; is it imitation, or a desire to step into the role? When a man enters the ritual chamber, does he not don a robe as would a wizard? When a woman wishes to command lust, does she not adorn herself with the clothing which will command men's attention? If a young Satanist one day rubs the dust from his eyes, puts on his fedora and puts Al Jolson on his turntable, is he merely mimicking Dr. LaVey, or is he more accurately placing himself in the role of that which he wishes to take on the attributes of? The wizard may take the robe off when the ritual ends, but who would deny that he should wear it when he desires magic?

Thank you for that great reply, honorable Magister.

There is such a difference between following another's example and being his/her bitch, and yet this often seems paradoxical to new Satanists for some reason, and thier inability to distinguish between the two can--and should be dangerous for them. For the user who started this thread, I am amazed that someone who is so bold with his opinions seems never to have read LaVey's "In Praise of Sycophants" from Satan Speaks. Else, why the scat?

In basic training, I recall standing in the rain in the middle of some fucking wilderness in Oklahoma, with a Drill Sergeant in my face. I was in awe of him and told him so. I remember him saying "I know you're young and immature. I know you're weak. I will make you strong in spite of yourself. Watch what I do and do the same. You will walk like I walk. You will talk like I talk." Few who knew me then would recognize the person I became--nor that I was to be offered Drill Sergeant school myself one day, nor that I would nearly double in size, nor that I would hold my own with the best of them in combat.

I have been through many similar cycles since. The Doktor has been a paradigm, but I have had many others--and gained from each. The student/master relationship is pervasive through all aspects of human development--and is only unhealthy when one's balance-factor gets out of whack. While there is a major arguable difference in the forced performance of the military, and the self-reliance required by the Satanist, the point of choosing and emulating role-models still stands.

Although I have been a Satanist for many years, I have found many great examples in this forum. As I get more and more intimate with the interface, I am sure I will discover many more. There is much for me to learn, and I enjoy doing so. I hope I am able to give as I have gained.

Thank you for your wisdom, Magisters Nemo and Svengali.
I expect I will have many other to thank eventually.
There is much to value in our forum.

I won't apologize for my humor on this thread in another post, but I will admit that it was misplaced.

Having respect for someone who knows more than you is vital.

Being someone else is self destructive.

That is all there is and ever will be to it.

The other posts I've read are very wise. Ribbit, either get it or don't. I suggest you buy a yin yang pin, poster, or Screen saver, and study it.

If you don't take that advice, then take the advice already given through forms of suspicion; hit the road jack.

I agree.
Oh, but I do think women in stockings (slim ones) are hot. They even pee cute.

Socks are cuter. "The joy of socks". Ahem ;p

I prefer naked.. Then let your tongue do the walking.. Yum.

I prefer....

A gentleman never tells.

That's what really gets chicks off, ya'll. A guy that knows when to keep his mouth shut! I think I'm in love!

I think that most of the people here already know this. Redundancy is boring. Say something I don't already know.

Well, well.

SEEMS I READ THIS SOMEWHERE BEFORE!!!

You have hit the nail on the head.

What was the reason to express how this "bothers" the originator of this thread?

Oh! Satanists admire the creator of Satanism!

Horrors!

What a shock!

So assuming that the writer isn't stupid and understands that admiration often leads to at least some degree of imitation (this is called learning), what does this tell us about the authentic reason?

I would submit that either there is a problem here with feeling enough self-confidence to permit some degree of imitation or we have just another example of some attempt to "redefine" Satanism.

Don't muggles (as per JK Rawlings' definition as "non-magic folk") have something better to do?

It would seem not.

----------------------------------------------------------

P.S. I like this so much that from now on I think I will refer to all these "lost souls in search of Satanism" as "muggles". Sounds good!

A "Muggle Alert"!

Hehehe. The term "muggle" used to slip up with me when referring to the herd.

I have read too much Harry Potter.

But hey, it's in the British dictionary

Sounds good Magister!

I always find it amusing when others get caught up in their own webs.

How about you, Mr. Ribbit?

.. ribbit.. ribbit.. ribbit..