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#139448 - 01/07/06 07:35 AM Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way
IX Von ZehEhv Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 708
I posted this in a different forum in the hope of generating some intellectual discussion, but met with limited response. Perhaps people don't know who Dale Carnegie was? I post again here, I hope no-one minds. I am interested to find what people's views on this topic are. The post, with some minor editing, is as follows:

Lesser Magic can be viewed as the art of 'human relations'. In this context, Dale Carnegie's book "How To Win Friends And Influence People" can be seen as an important text. Whilst this book was written early last century, and has what is now a dubious title that could scare people off, I believe it has many valid points.

Have others here read and used the principles in this book? If so, do you have any examples you wish to share?

If there is interest in this topic, I would be happy to every few days post a new principle from the book in order that people may learn, thereby opening discussion of that principle until the next is posted.
_________________________
"Some people dream of success... while others wake up and work hard at it." - Author unknown

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#139449 - 01/07/06 04:51 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
In my opinion Dale Carnegie's "How To Win Friends And Influence People" is an excellent guide to lesser magic. Even though most of it is common sense, there is a lot to learn from it. The examples he uses are good. However, I do not fully agree with his take on being completely sincere and honest, but I absolutely understand the benefits of what he has to teach. I have utilized many of his tricks and they have worked well for me.

Maybe this is why I quote him in my signature.

As for examples, I have far too many to really point out. The simple fact is they work. However, you can learn all that Carnegie has to offer on your own. The book is still very useful, both in your career or personal life.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#139450 - 01/07/06 05:56 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: Discipline]
pitzi_83 Offline


Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Israel
I haven't read "The Satanic Witch". Is it similar to such books?
I'm under the impression that it is.

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#139451 - 01/07/06 10:40 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: Discipline]
IX Von ZehEhv Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 708
Thanks Discipline. This is the type of feedback I was looking for. It seems it is often overlooked due to its age and odd title. I personally found the book a great resource on human relations, and also moved on to other authors such as Napoleon Hill. NH was a student of Dales, and his books are about organising your thoughts as appropriate, with the aim of achieving your goals. Did you read any of his work?

Pitzi, see the description for the book on Amazon or the like. I personally wouldn't compare it to TSW, but it has the same aims, different perspective.
_________________________
"Some people dream of success... while others wake up and work hard at it." - Author unknown

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#139452 - 01/07/06 10:47 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
IX Von ZehEhv Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 708
Obviously people have different wants in life, and different ways of obtaining it. I am a strong believer in defining one's goals, planning to achieve them, then making them happen.

Some people are happy to overlook these books as being 'self-help'. I don't care what others think. If it helps me reach my goals, gives me personal empowerment and motivation, I will give it a chance.
_________________________
"Some people dream of success... while others wake up and work hard at it." - Author unknown

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#139453 - 01/07/06 11:14 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
MagisterParadise Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 3262
Loc: Burlington, VT
Quote:

Perhaps people don't know who Dale Carnegie was?




Evidence lending, I'd think more than a few folks on this board really should know.

Quote:

and has what is now a dubious title that could scare people off




So does The Satanic Bible (the scare you off part, not the dubious one). Knowledge sometimes comes at you from that direction.

Quote:

Have others here read and used the principles in this book?




#1: Remember people's names. Caters to the ego, and works wonders if used right.
_________________________
Ever Forward!
Magister Matt G. Paradise - Church of Satan

****** READ DIABOLOGUE OFTEN ******

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#139454 - 01/07/06 11:47 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: MagisterParadise]
IX Von ZehEhv Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 708
Thank you Magister Paradise. It is refreshing to see people here do know who he was. Thanks for sharing the point about remembering names.

I have personally found the principle below very important, as it immediately can establish a rapport with the said person. Also important is principles of NLP in creating this rapport.

#Make the other person feel important-and do it sincerely.
_________________________
"Some people dream of success... while others wake up and work hard at it." - Author unknown

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#139455 - 01/08/06 04:21 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
No, I have not read any of Napoleon Hill's books. Is what he has to say worthwhile and adds more meat or is he just restating what Mr. Carnegie has already perfectly written?

I think I will look into Mr. Hill. Thank you.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#139456 - 01/09/06 10:02 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: Discipline]
IX Von ZehEhv Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 708
I would describe Carnegie's books as being about human relations. I would describe Hill's books about being 'self' relations. They are about changing, and organising the methods in which we think so that we may better attain success. To give an idea, I will list some chapter headings:

2. Desire: The Starting Point of All Achievement
3. Faith: Visualising and Believing in the Attainment of Desire
4. Autosuggestion: The Medium for Influencing the Subconcious Mind
7. Organised Planning: The Crystallisation of Desire into Action

As you can see, it is about changing the way one thinks for the better. I would highly recommend it. This book in particular is called "Think And Grow Rich". Though it is more than just about money, it is about success.

I hope that helps mate.
_________________________
"Some people dream of success... while others wake up and work hard at it." - Author unknown

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#139457 - 01/10/06 03:01 AM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
It does indeed, Sir.

Thank you again.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#139458 - 01/12/06 07:06 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
JSBlack Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 11/27/05
Posts: 594
Loc: South Wales
Greetings.

Dale Carnegie also penned an interesting tomb called 'How to Stop Worrying and Start Living,' which has been on my shelves for years. Cool as a snowman's fart that bloke.

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#139459 - 01/14/06 03:10 AM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: JSBlack]
IX Von ZehEhv Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 708
Thanks. I will check that one out.
_________________________
"Some people dream of success... while others wake up and work hard at it." - Author unknown

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#139460 - 01/25/06 08:12 AM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
Lord Xolothi Offline


Registered: 09/25/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Italia
Yes,i'm have read Carnegie Book and i have buy all the books of Dale Carnegie.
I'm have applicated the principles of Carnegie for some months,and must say which the principles like giving in his books are very efficacious!!
But i'm don't like to be gentle with anyone.I'm are sometimes naturally rude,cinical and misantropist and use the Carnegie's Principles only rarely actually.
For me is very hard use it.
I'm suggested to you for you lesser magick of read and applicated the goods books of Robert Cialdini and the lecture of "Get anyone to do anything"
Rege Satanus!


I am like God
and God like me.
"I am as large as God!
"He is as small as I!
He cannot above me
nor I beneath him be.
Maximilian Cady(Cape Fear)

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#139461 - 01/25/06 06:00 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
I havent read this, Thanks for the heads up.
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#139462 - 01/26/06 10:31 AM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
nemesis Offline


Registered: 01/24/06
Posts: 14
Loc: nashville tn, greensboro nc
i am just wondering, isnt lesser magik applied psychology and the study of human behavior, put into action to achieve your desired results? and, i would like to hear some of that dale carnagie philosophy.

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#139463 - 01/26/06 03:44 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: nemesis]
Achilles Offline


Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 223
Yup! Lesser magic can also be considered in stage magic or conjuring, which is alot of fun expecially if you combine it with mind reading and psychology. Then you can manipulate someone while they think you have supernatural power over them.

Of course, this is always considered immoral by the "skeptics" against the paranormal, who are usually magicians.

Another difference between Atheists and Satanists.
_________________________
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard

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#139464 - 02/24/06 05:58 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
Dak Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 330
Loc: Somewhere else
I think this is a great book and the techniques are simple and work. There are even classes given by the Dale Carnegie foundation. Many of the most potent books of lesser magic are not to be found in the new age/occult section. Resourcefulness and trying new things critically will identify their usefulness. HS!

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#139465 - 03/01/06 08:27 PM Not For Me... [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
I have been checking into some of Dale Carnegie' stuff.
Personally I don't get it.
The man is speaking about prayer, and Jesus references.
I cant read about weakness, unhappiness, and then promote it all in the name of lesser magic.
This is my opinion alone and if you don't like it I understand. Here is a link that proves my hypothesis. http://www.westegg.com/unmaintained/carnegie/stop-worry.html


Edited by tier_instinct (03/01/06 08:30 PM)
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#139466 - 03/01/06 09:02 PM Re: Not For Me... [Re: Lust]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I have not read Dale Carnegie's How to Stop Worrying and Start Living. So I cannot fully comment on it nor do I trust a website to give a summary of the book accurately.

The only way to truly know what the book is about is to read it.

However, his book How to Win Friends & Influence People is a great read with many useful suggestions. It has somethings that I disagree with personally in terms of sincerity. But the truth be told, if you apply them they work and work well.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

Top
#139467 - 03/02/06 01:05 AM Re: Not For Me... [Re: Lust]
IX Von ZehEhv Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 708
I have not read that item, so also cannot comment on the religious references. I can, however, say that the original item being discussed does contain good material. It's also cheap.
_________________________
"Some people dream of success... while others wake up and work hard at it." - Author unknown

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#139468 - 03/20/06 06:49 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
codename_47 Offline


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 13
Ah, forgive me for making this post without first introducing myself in the required section first. I will do that immediately after this post.

I, for one, am quite into personal developement as I feel that is the purpose of one's religion despite the fact you don't need it to ... Undergo... However, yes, Dale Carnegie speaks of prayers and Jesus, but let's just say his vehicle of personal developement differs from ours and... I don't know... Disregard it?

I agree, the art of human relations IS the art of lesser magic, an one who has mastered it's principles is therefore a master of lesser magic.

Might I add I'm very glad I'm not the only one who has thought of this.

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#139469 - 03/20/06 08:18 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
Hixem Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 100
Loc: North Carolina
I read How the Win Friends and Influence People as a child. The book is brilliant in its simplicity and pragmatic approach. It is classic Lesser Magic.

When my oldest daugher turned eleven I gave her a copy of this book, as well as The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense and More on the Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense.

When she reached the age where peer acceptance and pressure became a significant factor in behavior and identity, I showed her that she could influence, as well as be influenced by, those around her.

Andrew Dale Carnegie's book doesn't neccessarily unveil new secrets of interpersonal manipulation. It does, however, codify and enumerate simple practices that make people easier to sway and deal with. This is still, I believe, on the required reading short list for any serious salesman.

I'm holding a copy of The Compleat Witch for when she leaves for college.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
Be the White Rabbit.

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#139470 - 03/22/06 08:48 PM Re: Lesser Magic - The Dale Carnegie way [Re: pitzi_83]
demonjockfan Offline


Registered: 03/09/06
Posts: 6
Dale Carnegie should be well-read. His book, "How to Win Friends and Gain Influence" is/was (?) on the CoS Grotto Master list. Much like fellow Christians such as Norman Vincent Peale, Mormon Stephen Covey, or others in that line of work, there is some separation of wheat from the chaff. How easy those changes are to impliment is questionable.

For Satanists who are big fans of not burdening themselves with other people's problems, the advice can be hard to follow. Most of it revolves around getting to know people, (networking), and getting them to like you. Which generally means listening to them complain for extended periods. Of course, some people find this an incredibly Satanic adventure, because this gives the low-down on who is doing what and with whom. Anyone who has worked for a company knows this information can be priceless. So pick your battles wisely.

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