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#139996 - 01/11/06 05:59 AM Why Atheism?
Zanarath Offline


Registered: 01/08/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
The great thing about having never grown up is that I never lost that tendancy to ask questions. To the members of the Church of Satan, I wish now to put forth the question: Why is Satanism so often labelled atheistic?

"Most Satanists do not accept Satan as an anthropomorphic being with cloven hooves, a barbed tail, and horns. He merely represents a force in nature - the powers of darkness which have been named just that because no religion has taken these forces out of the darkness. Nor has science been able to apply technical terminology to this force. It is an untapped resivoir that few can make use of because they lack the ability use a tool without having to first break down and label all the parts which make it run. It is this incessant need to analyze which prohibits most people from taking advantage of this many faceted key to the unknown - which the Satanist chooses to call "Satan"." -The Satanic Bible, Anton Szandor LaVey

OK, I understand full well that we Satanists don't believe in a deity with horns and a pointy-assed trident. Hell, we don't believe in anything, what with us shunning the very notion of "faith" and all. But we do acknowledge the existence of something - a Dark Force in nature which we choose to call Satan (symbolically).

According to dictionary dot com (or more specifically "WordNet"), a deity can be defined as "the personification of a force". I don't see why this "personification" is necessarily required to be anthropomorphic - why can't it be symbolic (like Satan) as well? If so, then wouldn't we Satanists, by defintion - acknowledge the existence of the symbolically named and personified Satan as something of a deity?

So, when a genuine Satanist says "Satan doesn't exist" - is this individual only refering to the non-existence of the Christian devil? If so, doesn't this discount the notion that the Satanist acknowledges the existence of a Dark Natural force? Sure, it does make things easier to explain to sheep, but at what cost?

To me, it seems, we're better off saying "we don't believe in Satan" with a little snicker.

While it is certainly not a conventional theism, we don't bow down to, pray to, or grovel at the feet of Satan. We don't believe in Satan (since this dark force just is). I honestly can't think of any prior cult or religion who sees their deities the way the Satanist sees Satan. I guess if there was a word for "theism" that doesn't hold the mystical/spiritual connotations, this would be a whole lot easier (since we are dealing with a purely carnal religion).

So, why are we describing Satanism as atheistic? Or am I just splitting hairs?

Any responses would be appreciated
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#139997 - 01/11/06 06:14 AM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
Priestess Palmer Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Viking Bay
To the average Joe on the street I adopt my language, my personality and my expressions.

When in the wonderful company of Satanists, I can easily uses phrases such as 'Satan' and 'Satanic' knowing they know exactly what I mean.

I gave up trying to speak to layman in this manner.

They believe that 'god' is a big man, with a long silvery beard and robes, who sits on a cloud with Elvis listening to harp music. If that's what god is, then I am an Atheist.

An Atheist means 'One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods'. Whereas any Satanists knows that we are ones own god, therefore not denying the existence of self, ergo, not Atheists - To be nitpicking.


I would never explain, or try to explain this to the street person, as it would waste my time, energy and O2.

We live in a christian society, with christian values, laws and morals. They would never understand the Satanic Bible. They take our expressions too literally. They don't understand the theatricality and 'Suspension of disbelief'.

I think it's best left this way.
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#139998 - 01/11/06 06:36 AM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Priestess Palmer]
Zanarath Offline


Registered: 01/08/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I understand where you are coming from, but nonetheless, why even mention atheism if the question of Satanism comes up? If we are forced to explain it, why not just say "A Satanist doesn't believe in Satan, a Satanist believes in himself" rather then give the wrong impression of our religion and claim it as atheism - then we may well be lying, and why lie when the truth is so much more fun?

Stating a disbelief in Satan will probably give the layman that impression anyway - but at least he's responsible for coming to that conclusion. If he ever does get around to picking up the Satanic Bible, at least (if he's smart), he'll see we were telling the truth.

I never really bothered with explaining Satanism to the layman, I prefer to keep them guessing.
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#139999 - 01/11/06 06:55 AM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
Caesar Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
Quote:

Or am I just splitting hairs?




This is hair splitting, if not trying to get people to say they are something they are not to other people. There is enough confusion already surrounding Satanic semantics.
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#140000 - 01/11/06 07:00 AM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
Priestess Palmer Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Viking Bay
Quote:

nonetheless, why even mention atheism if the question of Satanism comes up? If we are forced to explain it, why not just say "A Satanist doesn't believe in Satan, a Satanist believes in himself" rather then give the wrong impression of our religion and claim it as atheism - then we may well be lying, and why lie when the truth is so much more fun?






Then that is what you should say.

There is not a Satanic script that we all adhere to. I personally would not mention Atheism or Satanism unless asked.

My responses to either would depend on the person I am talking to.

If your question is about how the Church of Satan eminates itself, not individual Satanists, then you are asking the wrong questions in the wrong place.
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#140001 - 01/11/06 10:54 AM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
the_poison_elf Offline


Registered: 10/08/04
Posts: 113
Loc: Auburn, Maine, USA
From the very aforementioned Dictionary.com:

Quote:

god (n.)
1. God
1a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
1b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.




Now as has allready beed said, you are splitting hairs here, and I would tend to add "needlessly so" to that as well.

Now, as you can see there are even different definitons of "god" that are pretty damned varied. Definition two in particular seems a bit wonkey to me. However this is just to define that even the interpertations of the word "god" will have an effect on your athiesm question.

In concerns to Satanism and Athiesm, I would say that when pertaining to 1 or 2 then yes, Satanism is athiestic. A symbol (in this case Satan) is not a manifestation or an avatar in the sense of the words. 3 could be partially correct; you yourself are an idol unto yourself. The others grade down into more mundane definitions where the question should be a moot point.
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#140002 - 01/11/06 11:10 AM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
When a Satanist says "the dark force" in nature, it is metaphorically, refering to physical, biological, evolutionary, and psychological forces not yet understood.

The Satanic Bible is clear on this. The "gods" of history are human psychological factors projected onto the forces of nature.

Don't try to create a loophole for mysticism and "spirituality" to seep in and stink up the place.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#140003 - 01/11/06 11:11 AM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
Quote:

If we are forced to explain it,






Forced??? By torture???
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#140004 - 01/11/06 12:02 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I am an atheist. I am a Satanist.
When I say I am my own god, I mean I take responsibility for meeting my needs, as a believer looks to a god to meet their needs.
I do not believe in myself. I know myself.
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#140005 - 01/11/06 01:28 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
I think it goes back to Widow's response again. Laypeople need to be issued the "Satanists are atheists" ultimatum, because otherwise, they'll feel inspired to make all kinds of asinine assumptions. Introducing too much complexity or too many vague or abstract concepts opens up the door for serious misinterpretation.

I think most people place "force/chi/energy" and "sentient, anthropomorphic supernatural being" into different categories anyway, so calling oneself an atheist does not automatically eliminate the former. Besides, I'm not sure all Satanists will automatically agree on what the "dark force of nature" exactly is (although I'm quite sure Satanists can generally agree on what it *isn't*).
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#140006 - 01/11/06 01:34 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10146
I've always thought of Satanism as occupying a twilight zone between pure materialism and mysticism; we obviously don't go for the new-age mystic garbage, but at the same time many atheist/materialist types would find issue with our conception of Greater Magic. Satanists of course see it as natural law, and not in violation of our little brand of atheism.

Some atheists have their logic down pat, but sacrifice their sense of wonder for it. Satanists pull the balancing act of having it both ways. We can choose to believe something, if just for a while, because its either useful or fun.
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#140007 - 01/11/06 02:17 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
crackergirl Offline


Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 323
Loc: Kansas
Quote:


While it is certainly not a conventional theism, we don't bow down to, pray to, or grovel at the feet of Satan. We don't believe in Satan (since this dark force just is). I honestly can't think of any prior cult or religion who sees their deities the way the Satanist sees Satan. I guess if there was a word for "theism" that doesn't hold the mystical/spiritual connotations, this would be a whole lot easier (since we are dealing with a purely carnal religion).





I got this explanation of what you might be referring to. Maybe I've misinterpreted what you've written, but if I have, this may be an interesting point none the less:

"Deism is defined in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1941, as: "[From Latin Deus, God.Deity] The doctrine or creed of a Deist." And Deist is defined in the same dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

This common sense approach to God and a spiritual philosophy can not only bring a lasting profound sense of peace and happiness to the individual, but it also has the potential to go light years in eradicating religious fear, superstition and violence."

Obviously this was taken from a source devoted to Deism, or it wouldn't be touting the praises of this philosophy so lavishly. If it wasn't apparent to you that this statement is at least slightly biased, well...I'm sorry about your head injury and/or brain dysfunction.

Benjamin Franklin was a self-proclaimed Deist. He was also a member of the legendary Hellfire Club which performed what they called a "Black Mass." I suppose if you prefer to look at Satan as this sort of "mystical force," then maybe Deism defines what you believe. I believe (from the things I've read or seen in various sources) the word Satan was chosen only because of the literal meaning of the word Satan, and not the religious meaning of the word, though religion does have a clear connection to this term.

We all know what the Christians think of Satan, and I honestly couldn't care less how they take my personal definition of such. The name Satanism was chosen because Satan means "the accuser or adversary." I take this to mean that Satanism is an opposition to all other religions (among other things, of course). The Christians chose "him" as their adversary, and since I'm adamently against what they believe, I suppose being the adversary (my own personal Satan) is befitting. There is a part of me that believes the term was chosen also to induce a feeling of shock, which, of course, will make people look at it. It gets attention, good or bad, and you know what they say, "No publicity is bad publicity." Nothing wrong with being noticed. If you have the ability to make people look at you, you have power over them. The commanding of attention is a valuable tool for a Satanist, but the need for privacy is also essential (to me, at least).

The anthropological concept of "nature vs. nurture" will further clarify my personal position on this. Satan=nature. How I exploit my personal hold on Satanism=nurture. It's not just about what "Mother Earth" gives you. It's what you do with what she gives you.

How do you define Satan? (This is the real question here, I believe). As per the guidlines of The Satanic Bible, it is whatever the hell you want it to be. It's clearly stated in this book. The Satanist simply chooses whichever definition of god suits him best. So, if it's in your best interest to see Satan as some kind of half-human, half-goat beast, I wouldn't have any objections to such a thing. It's not my way, but I'm not the authority on what's best for you. The only thing you really have to remember is that when you're speaking of your personal take on this subject, make sure you make it very clear that this is the opinion of yourself, not of every Satanist in the world. I don't believe there are many sentences that can truthfully start out with "All Satanists believe..." I know what my personal thoughts are on what a Satanist should believe, but I'm not a representative of all Satanists, so I can't speak for everyone.

You might be going about this the wrong way in a sense because you're asking what Satan is to people who have never traveled inside your head. Only you can determine what it means for you. That, to me, is the utilization of the Satanist's most prized attribute--the ability to choose. However, you might be going about this in the right way as well, in the sense that you're asking questions. Gathering information is the purpose for all scientific experimentation. When you asked this question, did you know you were conducting an experiment? I just thought that might be an interesting view to present. The Satanist as a natural scientist. You're taking in all possible concepts of this subject from the source--the Satanists themselves. I have to tip my hat to you for that. It's been eight years since I first read The Satanic Bible, and I've still not joined The Church of Satan. The reason is, I believe, the same reason you asked this question. You're testing the waters. That's a sign you're on the right track. I'm ready to join now, and I'm going to for my birthday this year. I consider that a very nice present.

When you've gathered all the information you think you need to make an educated decision on what the definition of Satan really is, I hope you'll take all outside sources (outside yourself) with a grain of salt. Like I said, only you can decide what it all means to you.

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#140008 - 01/11/06 03:20 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

If he ever does get around to picking up the Satanic Bible, at least (if he's smart), he'll see we were telling the truth.

I never really bothered with explaining Satanism to the layman, I prefer to keep them guessing.




Actually, unless the person is a Satanist, I have found that they will believe whatever they want to believe, regardless of whether you explain truth to them or not. I have encountered people who have read The Satanic Bible and still do not see the truth. They see what they want to see. I very soon realized it was solipsism, the third Satanic Sin, and quit beating my head against brick walls.

If you never bother to explain Satanism to the sheeple, then what difference does it make whether you refer to it as atheistic or not? I do use the term atheist but only as a way of letting people know not to bother with all the god, bible, and religion shit. I just don't bother to "try to teach pigs to sing", as Magistra Blanche Barton so aptly put it.


Hail Satan!
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#140009 - 01/11/06 03:45 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
Witch_Scarlet Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 787
Loc: Texas
My Companion, who is a former Catholic Priest, explained the Orthodox Churches stance on Christian belief in God, Satanist and Atheism. “God is defined as an all powerful force who guides us into his world with love and salvation, and punishes those who reject his love.” “Satanist believe in a force that invokes all that is natural to man and relies on his own strengths and talents.” “An Atheist believes in nothing, not even in himself.” “In the Churches opinion, an Atheist is worse then a Satanist. "Satanist, even if they are being mislead, at least believe in something.” My companion, the poor man, is sill a Priest at heart.

We of course disagree on some of the finer points of the Christian churches description but basically it is not incorrect. A Satanist is not an Atheist and never could be. We have too much belief in our own supremacy and self-importance. When I am asked to define a Satanist, I never use the words, disbelief or atheist as it would be untrue and would verify the idea that most people have of what a Satanist is. I use the phrase “ a believer in the true origins and power of mankind.”

Of course I am sure there are those who would disagree even with this but that is the way of it.


Edited by Scarlet (01/11/06 03:54 PM)

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#140010 - 01/11/06 10:20 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
Zanarath Offline


Registered: 01/08/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
OK, perhaps I was splitting hairs.

Whilst reading through each reply I had originally intended on replying to each one of you individually - but the more I read, the more irrelevent it became. So I'll just give a nice, sweeping reply to save everyone's time.

In accordance with Magistra Barton's comment, I can agree with the notion that perhaps the "pigs" need the "Satanism is Atheism" concept to keep them happy - although personally, I could care less about what they think. So long as they know real Satanists aren't criminals, what else do they need to know?

I'm not a spiritualist or mystic, I totally agree with the two points made by Magister Svengali. However, I'm not trying to create a loophole - although I do acknowledge that perhaps some ill-informed individual may see this as such if we went around using terms such as "pseudo-theism" or the like.

Of course, taking The Satanic Bible into account, LaVey does clearly state that a Satanist chooses exactly what Satan is to them (in a purely metaphorical sense). And I do agree that by the convential definitions of what a "god" is - I too can be considered an atheist (and also not a deist - for whoever brought that one up).

So to myself, I am a Satanist - but compared to the sheep of the Right Hand Path, I'd be an atheist. So fair enough, I guess the tag sticks (except at the height of a ritual - OK, that one is irrelevent hair-splitting ).

I think it still must be acknowledged that this post did effectively manage to reveal various ideas and viewpoints in regards to how each participating individual views Satanic semantics. Pretty interesting stuff.

P.S I did create this mess and I will clean it up - so any questions of things I haven't addressed or just attacking my credibility as a Satanist in general, I'll answer.


Edited by Zanarath (01/11/06 10:24 PM)
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#140011 - 01/12/06 10:25 AM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
Dark_Adept Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 884
Loc: High Hades
The only thing that seems to separate Satanism from Atheism is Magick. Atheism has always seemed vacuous to me even when I was a child and seeking out answers to all the tragedies that befell me from day to day, week to week etc. Atheists in my opinion are just as bad as Xians in that they are so adamant on affirming their disbelief in a god that they claim doesn't exist. Therein lies the funniest contradiction in the Atheists credo that I always catch them on when they scoff at my beliefs, should they "discover" what I am. But this was years ago, I've matured out of the overt "goth" stage and prefer to divulge unto those closest to me, should I feel it be necessary. I'd go onto Agnostics, which I apply the epithet "castrated Atheists" but that's a whole other thread.
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#140012 - 01/12/06 03:52 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Dark_Adept]
Achilles Offline


Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 223
I don't see any beliefs in Satanism and I do not see anything much different between Atheism and Satanism. So why would they scoff at you? An Atheist rejects the idea of a higher or spiritual power. There is no proof of the supernatural, no matter how "complex" life is. That isn't an excuse for gods up in the clouds. Even if there was, why do we care? The only difference is that we see the subjective as the most important thing, they don't. We realize that religious and ceremonial rituals are a necessary part of life. It's been there throughout human history with religion. Atheists reject religion all together.
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#140013 - 01/12/06 05:05 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Achilles]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Most atheists have a problem with magic and ritual, most of them are also on a liberal/egalitarian side of the spectrum that would find Satanic ideas of elitism and stratification objectionable.
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Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#140014 - 01/12/06 05:17 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
When most people think of atheism, they think of it as the disbelief in or the denial of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god. By that standard, we are indeed atheists.
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#140015 - 01/12/06 09:11 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: HellofallHells]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Hellofallhells...that's where I was coming from. I realize that there are a lot of traits that people who identify themselves as atheists...some, many, the more outspoken ones?...not sure...may share. Many of them I do not identify with. I do tend to be a rationalist, and have a habit of analyzing thins ad infinitem; but, that alone is cold and barren. I am also very passionate, with strong emotions; and, I am a sensualist. Those are the things that responded so well the first time I read The Satanic Bible.
The other responses here have given me things to think about, all the same. Interesting thread, this one.
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#140016 - 01/12/06 11:55 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
blasphemy Offline


Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 70
Loc: NY, US
Of what I've seen and read, athiests are simply people who agree in a dis-belief in any higher power. Many try and group athiests together and try and form athiestic norms or some type of label out of the term. Its more of an adjective. I think that a Satanist can be a athiest independent of his belief in ritual and magick. Most Satanists that I've met who admit to performing black masses and certain rituals usually think they are posessed or try to talk to Satan directly. I don't consider these people Satanists. I consider them something closer to the Temple of Set.

The Satanic Bible is clear on the concept that god was created by man and to follow the creation of some group of zealots, manipulators and stoners is idiotic. This is why I don't follow any monothiestic-- or thiestic in general-- ideals that I was raised on. People associate ammorality with athiests, and most link idol worship to Satanists. Athiesm has no connection to morals, and if you look at Satanism from its philosophical point of view, it is a strict moral code that one without a belief in god could conform to. Whether or not he believes in himself is a self esteem issue; whether he feels comfortable performing rituals/magick is a comfort issue; whether he wants to join a community of like minded individuals is up to him; but there is nothing that states that an athiest cannot be a Satanist. It seems sensible that if someone can take the time to consiously not believe in god, he's made the first step towards progress.
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#140017 - 01/13/06 10:24 AM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Priestess Palmer]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11570
Loc: New England, USA
>They believe that 'god' is a big man, with a
>long silvery beard and robes, who sits on a
>cloud with Elvis listening to harp music. If
>that's what god is, then I am an Atheist.
>[Widow]

By that reasoning, just about all Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Jews are "atheists" too. When was the last theist you met who actually visualized God as you described? Obviously, there's more to our rejection of theism than seeing the absurdity in the various medieval paintings and other stereotypical views.

>>The only thing that seems to separate Satanism
>>from Atheism is Magick. [Behemoth90731]

Somebody was going to post the following line anyway, so here it goes:
"Those who spell 'magic' with a 'k', aren't." - Anton LaVey

>>I do not see anything much different between
>>Atheism and Satanism. [Achilles]

Um, you DID read the second half of The Satanic Bible, right?
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#140018 - 01/13/06 10:43 AM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11570
Loc: New England, USA
>>Why is Satanism so often labelled atheistic?

Because one of the most couldn't-be-more-wrong stereotypes of Satanism is the idea that Satanists worship or otherwise explicitly communicate with a deity called Satan. Saying we're "atheists" is the most blunt way of shooting down that notion.

In the strictest sense of the word, atheism means nothing more than "without belief in deity". You can make all these arguments about how we view "Satan" as representing things that are quite real and what not, but the bottom line is that we fit that definition of "atheist" as far as rebutting the stereotype is concerned.

Personally, I refer to Satanism as non-theistic. I do this because of the different shades of meaning that "atheist" has accrued. The definition has been misapplied to mean things like "one who has no religion", and/or somebody who immediately and explicitly rejects ALL notions of metaphysics, rejects all ritual, etc. Satanism obviously doesn't fit with these notions. The Satanic Bible also points out the whole "Christian atheist" thing too.

You do bring up a point though, and it's something that I talk a little about in an upcoming Not Like Most article: just because atheists reject most other religions, doesn't make them our "friends"! They're not our allies. They can be just as anti-Satanic as Christians most times.
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#140019 - 01/13/06 05:04 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Satanism as I see it is basically Atheism + Ritual. The fact I’m my own God doesn’t make me a Theist.

I have no problem at all if people call me an Atheist, because I am one. What annoys me is most people don’t know what the word Atheism means.

I have found most people expect an Atheist to be someone who is angry at God. I don’t hate God anymore than I hate Mickey Mouse. Those are the ones who ask you “What did God do to you that made you stop believing in him”. Obviously the answer would be “He did nothing at all… he doesn’t exist”

The other common misconception is that an Atheist is someone who doesn’t accept any kind philosophy or theory of any kind. I really hate when they say “You believe in Evolution, so you are not an atheist because “Evolution” is your religion”.

Of course, these kinds of idiot’s are not to be taken seriously.
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#140020 - 01/13/06 05:22 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Zanarath]
chandler Offline


Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 41
Loc: TX, US
I think you make a very good point that a lot of modern Satanists should heed. I don't consider myself an atheist or a theist, because of the dishevelling effect it has on conversations with your normal, run-of-the-mill pink bastard, who just believes what he's told, whether he's a Satanist or a Christian. I sometimes identify myself as a religio-philosophical Satanist, because of my deep resonation with the teachings of Aleister Crowley, and my adherence to my personal concept of Satan. I believe Satan can be invoked. That is enough for me. I do not need to know where the power came from, only that I have it. I do not consider myself an agnostic, because I would have to make a conscious, limiting choice about what information to consider valid. And I have support for many different, contradictory stances to take toward authentication of deities. A lot of it depends on how you define belief or knowledge, your epistemological method if you will.
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#140021 - 01/13/06 08:00 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Old_Pig]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Quote:

Satanism as I see it is basically Atheism + Ritual. The fact I’m my own God doesn’t make me a Theist.

I have no problem at all if people call me an Atheist, because I am one. What annoys me is most people don’t know what the word Atheism means.

I have found most people expect an Atheist to be someone who is angry at God.




Most people also think all atheists are exactly the same. This guy at work keeps saying, "You're not an atheist."
I say, "There are no gods. What do you call that?"
He says, "You're not an asshole, and you don't try to spend all your time convincing people god doesn't exist."
I tell him I also don't spend time tryiong to convince Santa Clause doesn't exist. Then I just let him think what he wants.
And, how can you be angry at someone who did nothing to you, because they don't exist? But, you said that...
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#140022 - 01/13/06 09:37 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: crackergirl]
chandler Offline


Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 41
Loc: TX, US
Quote:

"Deism is defined in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1941, as: "[From Latin Deus, God.Deity] The doctrine or creed of a Deist." And Deist is defined in the same dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."





You make excellent points comparing Satanism to Deism. In fact I am of a bent to insist that Satanism is the true American religion, though the United States has been perverted and greatly ruined by Christian voters without the lightest notion of what this nation was founded on. And of course, how could we expect a bunch of puritanical pacifists to maintain a civilian militia to keep tabs on the government? It has operated in secret so long, manipulating institutions and developing weapons of mass destruction, that militias are obsolete, even though they are still prescribed by the Bill of Rights. I blame the depravity of the current state on Christianity.

Then we also have foreign bodies to worry about, whose governments have sunk even more deeply into esoteric centralization that we supposedly need tyranny to protect ourselves from them? When will the fucking UN put a stop to this mess? Or aliens or something.

But the definition you give is very similar indeed to Satanism in its ideal state, that of pure reason, and oddly enough the terms "deist" and "theist" are linguistically identical, though that was an expedient for intellectuals to survive as heretics, and do something sensible with their lives at the time. Thomas Jefferson, I believe it was, described the Bible as a "dunghill", which just excites my patriotism, far more than any Abrahamic garbage the military makes me recite from time to time. Or the "Pledge of Allegiance".

But anyway, a global miltia is not yet obsolete, just a national one. That's why I'm all about internet and world government, and communication technology, and free speech (not just for Americans, but even for German and Albanian Holocaust Revisionists and Klansmen who barely know how to spell).

I think the social aspect of Satanism, trying to make a positive difference, by eliminating the Christian influence over our children's education and the community, is more important than whether or not we define ourselves as Atheists or Theists. That is just the simple-minded diversion of stereotyping oneself to gain a social context instead of imposing oneself as an individual. If Satanism were really nothing more than being an individual, if it had no purpose as an antithetical, Hegelian solution to the Christians and their schizophrenia, their "divine voices" that sputter from their mouths and through their heads, their trash dominating politics, the media, the law, and education, then we might as well have called it "individualism", which was a preexisting philosophy. Satanism is a proud tradition of heresies carried down through generations throughout all of civilized, literate, recorded history, though LaVey's corporation may have been the first openly Satanic bunch in a while. The Hellfire Club you mention, was a powerful conspiracy that made great changes in our institutions, by recruiting truly elite members, who could impose their will from a level of policy, in synchronization with other members sharing a common, intelligent agenda, instead of what "God" told them that morning. We need to remember our roots, and stop using terminology that was imposed on us, masquerading as important, by Christian theologians, and the atheist victims of Christian propoganda. My point is that, as Satanists, our wills should be to act, to create "works", instead of reacting to the question of faith that Christianity has traumatized so many with.
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#140023 - 01/14/06 10:34 AM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Achilles]
Dark_Adept Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 884
Loc: High Hades
Paraphrase "Why would Atheists scoff at you?"

[[ Most of the atheists that I've met and spoken to on the internet alike have superinflated egos regarding anything that they consider remotely "spiritual." Without knowing it, they are subscribing to the dogma of the RHP. They scoff because they assert that because Satanists use that epithet in and of itself makes us merely inverse Xians. Of course that's ignorant, but as I stated prior, these are the same dross that insist that they don't believe in a god that their very "anti-belief system" depends on in order for Atheism to be validated.
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#140024 - 01/17/06 01:54 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Old_Pig]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11570
Loc: New England, USA
>>Satanism as I see it is basically Atheism + Ritual.

Of course, it's more than ritual that distinguishes us from the run-of-the-mill "atheists" out there. One could be an atheist yet still shows clear signs of the 9 Sins, or whole-heartedly disagrees with the 9 Statements, etc.
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#140025 - 04/27/06 06:46 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Bill_M]
Illuminatus Offline


Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 148
Loc: Hellsinki, Finland
Quote:

>>You do bring up a point though, and it's something that I talk a little about in an upcoming Not Like Most article: just because atheists reject most other religions, doesn't make them our "friends"! They're not our allies. They can be just as anti-Satanic as Christians most times.




This is actually very true.I discussed satanism with some "freethinkers" and found that their idea of satanism was the same as the christian church.Brilliant questions such as "you must believe in God if you believe in the Devil" we're liberally flung around.

But I do have a certain "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"-mentality.I'm willing to support these freethinkers since their goals are mostly the same as mine.
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#140026 - 04/28/06 02:57 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Illuminatus]
Achilles Offline


Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 223
Satanism is the next step above atheism where most do not go.
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#140028 - 04/28/06 03:44 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Illuminatus]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11570
Loc: New England, USA
>>I'm willing to support these freethinkers since their
>>goals are mostly the same as mine.

I certainly have made use out of "atheist" resources - particular books, websites, CDs, documentaries, etc. And yes, I like seeing atheists lobby to keep a voice against Xtians who want to see my country turn into a theocracy. But again, I ultimately don't see them as being our allies.

The bottom line is that atheists have their share of proselytizing fanatics too. There are some that would just as soon like to see Satanism eradicated along with all other religions. Whether they get their information on Satanism through Pat Robertson and tacky horror movies, or the real deal through us, it doesn't matter. They see Satanism as a religion (which it is), and thus something the world would be a better place without.

These are the atheists that claim "atheism" is not a religion, yet adhere to and actively preach an ideology that includes far more than the non-existence of deity. They're the ones who say that there is absolutely nothing metaphysical (and quickly dismiss all things that look remotely metaphysical as complete crap), that science is the one and only valid mean of finding answers for ourselves, that you have to hate and completely disagree with Republicans, and that everything in life has to be objectively proven.

I've even seen an atheist radio show host who prides himself in having debated COS members, and keeps illegal electronic copies of The Satanic Bible on his website. And as I've said before, a lot of atheists seem to be people who disagreed with their parents' religion and simply assumed there was only one other alternative. They stare at me blankly when I bring up the notion of "non-theistic religions".

And again, a lot of them don't seem to be that much better than the rest of the herd, falling for the self-defeating "I still like what Jesus did" thinking, falling for mass-marketed fads, and of course victim mentality plus jumping into group mentalities of attacking one paper target or another. Also, often they lack aesthetics, not to mention the creative imagination to see the beauty in things like organized ritual (which can certainly be secular).

Atheists: they ain't our bed buddies!
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#140030 - 04/28/06 04:18 PM Re: Why Atheism? [Re: Quaark]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
That's actually a good way to look at it. Good comments by both Daark and Bill.

Quite simply, I, too, know many "herdish" atheists. They pride themselves on being "freethinkers," and are proud of themselves for seeing through the whole "god scam," but then slavishly devote themselves to trends, to the media, and to narrow-sighted science. Because they are so rigidly "scientific," they have no sense of magic or mystery, and are quick to pooh-pooh anything that can't fit into a test tube this minute. As Bill said, they don't even get that there are non-theistic religions, so they view Satanism as just much of an enemy as Christianity, and will rant and rail and foam at the mouth about any kind of "pseudo-science," be it ritual magic, astrology, or something truly idiotic like intelligent design.

Actually, if my choice is between a rabid atheist, and well-educated, mild-mannered Lutheran or Episcopalian, I may actually choose the latter option, as odd as that sounds. Though the atheist and I may share a general scientific worldview and approach, the fact that he's a psycho and rigid idealogue puts us at odds.

I just got thinking about my own "religious hierarchy," organized in terms of the level of gross stupidity.

Highest levels of stupidity:

Islam
Fundamentalist/charismatic Christianity
Pentecostalism (fits into the previous label, but deserves special mention.)
Southern Baptists.
Scientology
Mormonism
Jehovah Witness
Wicca

Lowest stupidity levels:

Agnosticism
Atheism
Taoism
Reform Judaism
Lutheranism
Episcopalianism
Unitarianism

The general middle, in no particular order:
Hinduism
Orthodox Judaism,
Bahai
Sikhism
Buddhism,
rabid atheism (points added for at least being atheistic, points subtracted for being douchebags),
Christian Orthodox,
Catholicism,
Miscellaneous Protestant sects
Folk religions.

But, I realize there's actually a need for several indexes and hierarchies---the religious intolerance index, the bellicosity index, the wimpiness index, the irrationality/psychoticism/superstition index, etc.--in order to do justice to the idea of ranking religions based on stupidity levels.

Oh christ, I am such a nerd.
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