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#143554 - 02/03/06 09:24 PM Re: Truth is not reality. [Re: ChrisRedstar]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Thank you for the reminder; it can be an easy thing to forget in the ebb and flow of everyday life. As for myself, I prefer to think of the issue of using another’s beliefs to curry favor like this:

People only lie for basically two reasons,

1. To avoid punishment (theirs or another’s).

2. To take advantage of someone (for material gain, entertainment, etc.).

What some call controlled self deceit others call lying, and this technique, by whatever name it is called, is an essential tool. Thank you once again.
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

#143555 - 02/04/06 05:41 AM Re: Truth is not reality. [Re: ChrisRedstar]
Grima Offline

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 331
Loc: Netherlands

I do not say, that truth is worse than reality. They are equally worth if you know how and when to chose the right one in a certain situation.

An excellent reminder sometimes. It is much like the old proverb; 'the truth is in the eye of the beholder'.
It is sometimes hard to keep in mind that others view the world differently, not because they hide reality from themselves, but they have their own personal space in which reality might be 'distorted' and what we perceive to be lies are truths to them.
It is always good to keep this in mind because there is much to be gained that way. Excellent post.

#143556 - 02/04/06 08:38 AM Re: Truth is not reality. [Re: mattevans]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10770
Loc: England
>>No self deceit is necessary<<

That is how I personally see it. In this example you are deceiving them, not yourself.

However, what Rev. Redstar is alluding to is a kind of method acting, I think.

I suppose one could call that "controlled self deceit"

Personally I simply refer to it as "the ability to bullshit"

And I see it as distinctly different from greater magic and self deceit, which as I have said, would not work for me personally outside of the chamber. I think one could easily end up fooling themselves instead of the intended target.

But it isn't a matter here of who is right and who is wrong. It's a matter of semantics and also of personal application.

Both are true, as far as I can tell.
Human beings are as significant as a cigarette burn in the sun.

#143557 - 02/04/06 12:55 PM Re: Truth is not reality. [Re: ChrisRedstar]
Barb Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 609
Loc: Lisle, IL U.S.A.
Truth is not reality to begin with; it becomes reality through non-reality.

When I am in my Intellectual Decompression Chamber, the fantasy I make of it is not reality, but my own truths are expressed and felt there. When I get results, now THAT is reality. My fantasy BECOMES reality BECAUSE OF the truths that I put into it.

Fantasy plus truth is the input; reality is the output.

#143558 - 02/04/06 01:02 PM Re: Truth is not reality. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Barb Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 609
Loc: Lisle, IL U.S.A.

[...] "switching of truths" - it is more that I am manipulating his percption of reality and not my own.

I call it “putting yourself in someone else’s shoes” while ALSO thinking about what I want from them.

This DOES seem, to me, to influence what the other person thinks. I have used this technique to get people to agree with me about things so I could get my way.

#143559 - 02/04/06 07:41 PM Truth is a slippery word [Re: ChrisRedstar]
Isabel23 Offline
CoS Magistra

Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 2046
"Truth" is a golden shining word -- to be possesed and used as a weapon to justify all sorts of actions. It's application and meaning shift constantly, no matter which language it's in.

There's a lot of cultural baggage attached to "truth".

I find it not particularly useful.

If you use "model" instead of "truth", then it becomes obvious that the model (the map) is not the territory, as Rev. Redstar has stated so well.

Using "model", one can readily determine its usefulness (or not) regarding the model's correspondence to reality. Any self deception or misapprehension of reality is revealed when the model fails to work. Models are revised and upgraded as more information about reality is encountered.

Thus the concepts of lying and deceit are also put in their proper contexts of useful or not useful. If you really deceive yourself about the facts of reality, then your model will not work well, if at all.

Deceiving oneself isn't particularly useful.

Deceiving someone else might be useful. Context is everything.

The problem some people and even whole cultures have is that they have imbued a model with divine sanction (The Truth), and are incapable of revising their model when further information comes in from the real world.

In fact, you know there are people who operate as though the models they use are indeed the territory, their territory, and will defend it to the death. Or your death if necessary.

The main idea of this thread is to be aware of these factors and act accordingly. You know you are using a model, and you automatically become much more flexible and attuned to what's really there. In addition, you know that lots of others are using models that aren't so flexible or even connected to the real world -- giving you a tremendous advantage.

Even the best of us can sometimes confuse model for reality -- keep in mind that all conclusions are part of the model. We often do not realize when we have reached a conclusion, as opposed to just examining the facts.
CoS Magistra

#143560 - 02/04/06 09:28 PM Re: Truth is not reality. [Re: ChrisRedstar]
Alphines Offline

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 44
Loc: China
I like this article very very much~~In our life,in the society,there is too much unreality.But if people don't lie,how can they exist?Everyone is lying while he or she is considering what's real.For me,about belief,I believe what I think it's right.I have been finding my truth.But sometime ,the truth is too burdensome to shoulder.The truth isn't lovable.

Edited by Alphines (02/07/06 08:01 PM)
Mourning in the darkness of darkness
My dream chips away while blossom fades

#143561 - 02/05/06 01:59 PM Re: Truth is not reality. [Re: ChrisRedstar]
Maya Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 1447
Loc: New England
I always disliked the word "truth" until I understood what it really meant. My early adolescence taught me the meaning of the word rather well. Truth, like many other things, is highly subjective. In society, truth is what most people believe to be reality. In private, it is what you believe to be reality. Actual reality is unimportant when it comes to the truth. Indeed, manipulation of "truth", a word that symbolizes a kind of holy grail for self-righteous herdlings, is at the very core of Lesser magic!

Nice post, Reverend.

#143562 - 02/05/06 02:05 PM Re: Truth is not reality. [Re: ChrisRedstar]
luciferHammer Offline

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 242


I disagree. Expecting the truth isn't real, but thruth is real. People cheat, lie, forget, ... are not striving for the truth. That, is a real problem.

#143563 - 02/19/06 05:15 PM Re: Truth is not reality. [Re: ChrisRedstar]
jedisolo Offline

Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 16
Loc: Behind My Eyes
Simply restated, truth is what one may find useful.

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