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#144091 - 02/08/06 04:33 PM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: Old_Pig]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:

Nope. We can cause the extinction of the human species... but the planet will still here.




Indeed.

I was unclear in my post and I apologize.

When I said that we would cause Earth's "destruction," I didn't necessarily mean complete disintegration - that would be absurd.

However, I do think that a continued stroll down the current path of environmental awareness could - not definately - contribute to the Earth's inability to sustain life.

Without life, the planet would be dead - by default 'destroyed'.


Edited by AmbientLogic (02/08/06 04:47 PM)
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#144092 - 02/08/06 05:12 PM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: Poetaster]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Indeed.

Also, even if human activity doesn't "destroy" the whole planet as such, it can still destroy whole ecosystems, disrupt natural systems, or kill whole species, and that's still unfortunate, and, more importantly, it's largely preventable.

Many of the negative or disruptive things that are done to the environment---both directly and indirectly--aren't necessary by any means. Rather, people and systems just go that route because that's what they know how to do, and/or that's what they feel like doing because it seems more efficient or convenient in the short run. That's why it's important to exercise foresight, and be willing to implement changes that seem inconvenient in the short run, in order to reap long-term benefits.

Yes, it's inevitable that humans will have an impact on the world, and so on and so forth. But, that's not excuse to leave a huge footprint, so to say, when it's absolutely feasible and ultimately preferable to leave a smaller one. That's precisely the kind of sneaky behavior and rationalization that Satanists tend to hate, after all---"Ooooh, I can't help it...." or "It's ok for me to_____, because it's easy and I have 'rights'...." Satanists tend to hate the people who feel it's appropriate to inconvenience others, muscle in on others' territory or space, or disrupt the system because they "wanna" do something. I figure, the environment is no different.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#144093 - 02/08/06 05:41 PM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: Lithslithus]
crackergirl Offline


Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 323
Loc: Kansas
Major companies consistently enjoy the benefits of recieving government grants for exemplory efforts in complying with EPA regulations. You can be a greedy money-grubbing capitalist and still "save the whales."

It's our responsibility to clean up our own messes. Everyone should visit the recycling center whenever he can. Glass trash can be unsightly and it can cause injury too (as we all well know. Glass is sharp. Duh ). But when you take it to the recycling center, they can melt it down and make more glass products out of it. They can also grind the glass into tiny little beads and use it in a mixture for reflective paint for roadways. Broken glass can be turned into a safety feature. How about that? If we keep turning our trash into treasure, we'll all be better people (and more Satanic to boot. It's no secret that most Satanists are very enterprising people. Taking something that someone else has thrown away and turning it into something so useful, that sounds like something a Satanist would to do me).

For me, it's very clear. Very obvious. Satanists are environmentalists. We kind of have to be. I'm sure the statement "Responsibility to the Responsible" rings a bell.

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#144094 - 02/08/06 09:31 PM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: Poetaster]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Quote:

Quote:

Nope. We can cause the extinction of the human species... but the planet will still here.




Indeed.

I was unclear in my post and I apologize.

When I said that we would cause Earth's "destruction," I didn't necessarily mean complete disintegration - that would be absurd.

However, I do think that a continued stroll down the current path of environmental awareness could - not definately - contribute to the Earth's inability to sustain life.

Without life, the planet would be dead - by default 'destroyed'.




But still, even if we all tried, there is no way we could possibly extinguish life on this planet. We can make this world unable to sustain Human life, but not life in general. Remember that what is poisonous for us is delicious food for other creatures...

We can poison this world until every mammal dies. And we will have a world inhabited by happy 20-foot cockroaches.

Even in the hypothetical situation that every nuclear weapon in Earth exploded now, life won’t be destroyed, but actually rejuvenated! Most species would disappear, but the ones that survive would have a lot of space to start again. And with the increased radioactivity, there will be much more mutations, which would give a great jump-start to the Evolution of new species.

Imagine the three-legged blue crab-monkeys jumping around the upside-down palm trees with giant eyeballs instead of coconuts! Beautiful!
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You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#144095 - 02/08/06 10:38 PM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: Maya]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>I believe that it is crucial to our survival that we stop operating under the arrogant assumption that the planet is ours to dominate and its resources ours to use any way we deem appropriate.

For now.

There is a great thread either in the Essay forum or the Politics member’s forum. I don't remember which.

However, I go into depth on why I replied with that statement.

Responsibility to the responsible, this is always the case. However, the Earth can be a tool, giving we take care of other minor issues through up and coming advances.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#144096 - 02/08/06 10:48 PM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: Lithslithus]
Barb Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 587
Personally, I care about having a nice environment. The world is beautiful, and I want to keep it that way. I like the beauty of nature, and I also admire when a nicely-designed piece of architecture is built to enhance human life by existing for us to use for more earthly indulgence. Great landscaping on the site creates harmony with nature. A building and its surroundings should be able to merge as a full work of art. We also need those crude forest preserves to run free in, as wild animals. A balance of crude and eloquently constructed places gives life the full effect.

As for dumping shit all over the place and recklessly making the world look ugly, I don’t like these kinds of things. I don’t want to look at shit, so I at least make my own efforts to do my part in keeping the environment in good condition.
_________________________
"... it is much more gratifying to change your own world than the whole world." ~Magistra Ygraine

"Life is the great indulgence-death the great abstinence. Therefore, make the most of life-here and now!" ~Anton Szandor LaVey

"The true test of anyone's worth as a living creature is how much he can utilize what he has." ~Anton Szandor LaVey

"Twenty percent of your priorities will give you 80 percent of your production, IF you spend your time, energy, money, and personnel on the top 20 percent of your priorities." ~The Pareto Principle, as stated by John C. Maxwell

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#144097 - 02/08/06 11:05 PM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: TrojZyr]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I am in the opinion that the world is ripe with so much goodies and should be utilized. And by utilizing I mean for myself satisfaction. What satisfies me are all the neat treats that come with civilization.

I have no hard feelings on digging up the world to build me a huge tower that protects me from tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, and other destructive geographical causes. I like the urban jungle because it is designed to suit humans for survival. Of course there are nasty things that come with the urban, but that is the fault of human stupidity.

I also have the personal taste of venturing out to witness nature’s true glory, such as national parks. Those things are amazing. However, I only "witness" and I do not partake. If I do partake in nature it could lead to danger and maybe even death. Nature cares nothing for my safety no matter how safe I may assume I am and no matter how considerate I am of it.

Nature is best enjoyed as a visitor. Nature is here to be used. The only reason I see protecting parts of it is for my enjoyment. I like animals and I like hiking. So, I would like some parts to be preserved for my "viewing" satisfaction.

I can predict a time when we can create anything nature does and do it with more safety than nature allows. It could one day be like, “You destroy the Grand Canyon? Well, then just build a new one and make it better.”

Yes, I am idealist with a lot of knowledge in researching technology to make such wide assumptions. So shoot me.

I am not picking on you, TrojZyr. I am just having some fun. I have plenty of respect for your thoughtful opinions.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#144098 - 02/09/06 06:19 AM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: Maya]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
I really, really doubt that global warming exsists. You should see my earlier response to the post you quoted. I am unconvinced that people cause natural disasters or that the earth is in trouble.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

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#144099 - 02/09/06 07:33 AM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: Lithslithus]
DeLamar_J Offline


Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 124
Loc: Ohio
This is the kind of thing that you cant do anything about, so dont waste your time. You would be better off spending time making your own life better, not devoting yourself to a lost cause. Go work for the EPA, then you can make it your job. Then at least your getting paid for it.
_________________________
An insincere and evil friend is more to be feared than a wild beast; a wild beast may wound your body, but an evil friend will wound your mind. My personal web page---> http://www.myspace.com/39440105

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#144100 - 02/09/06 10:34 AM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: Old_Pig]
LightSnake Offline


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 49
Quote:


And with the increased radioactivity, there will be much more mutations, which would give a great jump-start to the Evolution of new species.





I've sometimes wondered about this. Radiation has both a plus and a minus side. Too much, and it sterilizes an area, but if it's just a bit, it can 'enhance' evolution. Is there thus a 'right' level of radiation for biodiversity on earth to be healthiest? And is that optimal level similar to natural radiation levels?

I've read somewhere some evolutionist's loose estimation that about only 1 in 500 random genetic mutations are beneficial to a species, which would suggest that not much radiation can be too much. Still, could the world use a little more?

--LightSnake

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#144101 - 02/09/06 11:23 AM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: Discipline]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
You could also destroy the Mona Lisa and make a new one, but I do feel that *something* would be lost. The replica is not the real thing, for the real thing has a history, a presence, a certain something. It's why Vegas is not as breath-taking (per se) as the sites it attempts to imitate.

This is one of the few cases in which you will see me be an idealist and a sentimentalist.

Oh, I'm all for keeping us safe, sure. Like I said, I'm not a Luddite, nor am I anti-civilization.

I also am well aware of the fact that nature is neutral towards its critters, us included---it's why I make fun of fluffy Wiccans, after all . It supports us and gives us life, but it can also lash out and kill us, and it doesn't give a fig either way. "Nothing personal," as they say. For that, it deserves a kind of respect and awe, for it is not to be underestimated, for misjudging it or misperceiving it could get you killed.

Also, you may notice that I am honestly taking into account the lives of various organisms and the ecosystems they live in, just as I take into account the feelings of, say, my mother, or a friend. (They aren't exactly the same, but you get the picture.) So, they have both extrinsic and intrinsic value to me, even in cases where I cannot derive tangible "use" from them.

No offense taken. Thank you.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#144102 - 02/09/06 11:55 AM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: uncleherpe]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:

I really, really doubt that global warming exsists.




To an extent, I can understand your opinion.

Global Warming has not been 'proven' beyond a shadow of doubt - mostly because climate models are incapable of supplying 100% accurate readings.

Science is a discipline that relies on supportable data. The data supporting the Global Warming theory is flawed, however, it offers the most reasonable approximation of the data we can measure to a 'perfect' degree.

Remember the method of science; to propose a theory and then provide evidence that the theory is reasonable in accordance with the laws of physics.

The facts speak for themselves.

The basic arguing points for Global Warming are as follows:

1.) Increase in global temperatures.
2.) A rise in sea level.

The data does support an increase of global temperatures.

"Average air temperatures have increased 1.2 degrees F over the past century."*

"The hottest 10 years in the last century have all occurred since 1980."*

"1998 was the hottest year on record, and 2001 was the second-hottest."*

"January-March, 2002, was the hottest such period on record."*

"Glaciers are retreating in many locations around the world."*

"Sea level continues to rise due to the expansion of warming ocean water and the melting of glaciers."*

** All statements provided by IPCC - The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

It stands to reason that I can assume global temperatures are rising - I don't need to take the measurements myself in order to agree with the data.

Also, the data supports a rise in sea level.

Measurements provided by IPCC models show that the sea level has risen a uniform 15 centimeters over the past century.

Just last march, the glaciologist community was stunned to document a section of ice the size of Rhode Island completely disintegrating. According to the laws of physics, this alone is not cause for alarm, since floating ice doesn't cause sea level to rise - the problem is that it does, however, contain interior ice caps that now have free access to the sea; which might cause severe increase in sea levels.

This june, NASA took pictures of the Greenland freshwater ice cap.This ice cap contains about 10 percent of the entire Earth's freshwater supply - the pictures confirm data that the ice cap is rapidly melting.

Provided all this evidence, it's a logical conclusion that Global Warming is indirectly supported. The proof is not 100% conclusive, but according to the uncertainty principle, nothing is. However, it would be unreasonable and foolish to disregard evidence just because that evidence wasn't 100% accurate.

As Jonathan Foley, an environmental scientist at University of Wisconsin-Madison says: "Where is there a reasonable doubt about global warming? Every piece of evidence says the world is getting warmer and CO2 is rising. Every law of physics says that increasing CO2 will trap heat. We don't have 100 percent statistical proof, but we've got a smoking gun, a motive and a body. What else does a regular person need to make a decision?"

I don't mind doubt - in fact I doubt on principle. However, when does doubt simply become irrational cynicism?
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#144103 - 02/09/06 05:13 PM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: Poetaster]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
However, when does doubt simply become irrational cynicism?

Good post. Thanks for the data and insights, Ambient.

The data does point to the fact that the climate is changing, and it also indicates that such changes could lead to all kinds of environmental situations that we'd consider inconvenient, to say the least.

One must take care not to doubt oneself into a corner, which is your point. Based on the data I've seen, I'd say it's safe to stop doubting that the planet is experiencing some kind of noticeable climate change.

And, from there, if any bit of our logic or research indicates that human activity might be contributing to the situation, it makes sense to err on the side of safety. Better safe than sorry, I say, especially if safer tactics and technologies are generally within reach.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#144104 - 02/09/06 07:06 PM Any recommendations? [Re: Old_Pig]
pitzi_83 Offline


Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Israel
Quote:

And about SIX to get to get a pretty complete knoledge on the subject.




I'd like to hear about additional books apart from "The Satanic Witch".

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#144105 - 02/09/06 07:14 PM Re: The Environment and Satanism [Re: Poetaster]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
even the epa says that many things about global warming are uncertain. global warming figures are usually ground temperature, not atmoshperic. If you look at the temperature of the air then there isnt really much of a average temperature change going on at all. The changes in ground temperature are not suprising, with the amount of things like concrete and ashpault (which conduct and hold heat much better than regular dirt) the increase after 1970 makes sense. the two figures of the temperature in the air and the temperature of the earth do not match up at all, so I am not convicned of global warming. I think the people in favor of global warming have much more to gain as well.
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One stupid post too many.

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