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#145307 - 02/14/06 07:47 PM Abnormal
DeLamar_J Offline


Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 124
Loc: Ohio
What is abnormal? Back when Hitler was in power, he had many followers who supported his mass murder. Now, in the USA mass murder would be considered abnormal, because the mass of people do not like it. But when you have a whole society of people supporting mass murder, is it normal now?
I don't really believe in normal or abnormal, because there really is no such thing unless you consider what the masses like or dont like.
Any thought or comments?
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#145308 - 02/14/06 08:09 PM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:

What is abnormal?




A relative distinction. The key is recognizing those distinctions and considering what's normal and abnormal for you.

Quote:

I don't really believe in normal or abnormal, because there really is no such thing unless you consider what the masses like or dont like.




That's the crux of the matter.

Without limiting yourself to popular opinion, questions of universal morality are moot.

What one culture does may not be what another does. What's normal for one, may not be normal for the other.

It's up to the individual to check their solipsism at the door.
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#145309 - 02/14/06 08:21 PM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
Staying up until 4am developing pictures in my darkroom is normal
to me. For others, it is not.

Some people are born with congenital birth defects or develop a
strange growth or cancer, which is abnormal.

You say you don't believe in "normal" or "abnormal". I don't
believe in trees but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

What exactly is it that you are trying to find out by asking your this?
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#145311 - 02/14/06 08:48 PM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
Witch_Scarlet Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 787
Loc: Texas
You need to define the difference between what is "normal and abnormal" vs "accepted and unaccepted." Mass murder being accepted in Germany during the time Hitler was in power but was not what most people considered normal.

We accept many things as normal today because society accepts it and defines it that way, but the reality is that no one individual or group of people can really define normal or abnormal and the same can be applied to accepted and unaccepted in the world except for themselves.

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#145312 - 02/14/06 08:59 PM Re: Abnormal [Re: RandomStranger]
DeLamar_J Offline


Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 124
Loc: Ohio
Quote:

Staying up until 4am developing pictures in my darkroom is normal
to me. For others, it is not.

Some people are born with congenital birth defects or develop a
strange growth or cancer, which is abnormal.

You say you don't believe in "normal" or "abnormal". I don't
believe in trees but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

What exactly is it that you are trying to find out by asking your this?


Others opinions on what is normal/abnormal.
_________________________
An insincere and evil friend is more to be feared than a wild beast; a wild beast may wound your body, but an evil friend will wound your mind. My personal web page---> http://www.myspace.com/39440105

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#145313 - 02/14/06 10:28 PM For the best comments... [Re: DeLamar_J]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Ask Gomez Addams.

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#145314 - 02/14/06 10:38 PM Re: For the best comments... [Re: Nemo]
DeLamar_J Offline


Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 124
Loc: Ohio
Well, Mr.Gomez. Lets hear it................
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An insincere and evil friend is more to be feared than a wild beast; a wild beast may wound your body, but an evil friend will wound your mind. My personal web page---> http://www.myspace.com/39440105

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#145315 - 02/14/06 10:42 PM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
I once saw a man who had no arms, just hands growing out of his shoulders. I thought that was pretty abnormal.

What you believe does not constitue reality. As the United States government has not engaged in any acts genocide in nearly 150 years, it would certainly be abnormal for them to do so now.
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-Lewis Lapham

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
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#145316 - 02/14/06 11:27 PM I also would consider... [Re: DeLamar_J]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Igor of "Young Frankenstein":

Yes, master, I got the brain of "Abbie Normal".

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#145317 - 02/14/06 11:56 PM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
Barb Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 587
To me, being normal is simply growing up and living life naturally without fucking things up.

I think we Satanists are more normal than the herd.
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"... it is much more gratifying to change your own world than the whole world." ~Magistra Ygraine

"Life is the great indulgence-death the great abstinence. Therefore, make the most of life-here and now!" ~Anton Szandor LaVey

"The true test of anyone's worth as a living creature is how much he can utilize what he has." ~Anton Szandor LaVey

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#145318 - 02/15/06 12:39 AM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
StabAvery Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 717
Loc: michigan
The definition of normal in websters dictionary is extensive. but the first definition is 1: conforming to the standard or common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural. and 2: serving to establish a standard. Hitler was attempting to make his personal ideas a standard for the masses to conform to. He was establishing a standard (no matter how deranged). The united states is killing thousands of people all the time. We are just told a minimal side of the story to make it seem in our best interest. So it must be normal to support a war for your country. Because it would be abnormal not to protest a money grubbing oil billionare spending lives in other countries for personal monetary gain. Also I wonder if we (being satanists) and recognizing ourselves as animals should not consider the occasional mass murder as natural an event as the occasional tsunami.
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#145319 - 02/15/06 03:31 AM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
"Others opinions on what is normal/abnormal. "

For what purpose? All that they are is opinion. What do you care
what other's opinions are?
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#145320 - 02/15/06 05:41 AM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
Priestess Palmer Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Viking Bay
I think it boils down to what you are personally used too.

I agree with Ravenhael - I always thought my behaviour was abnormal, until I met other Satanists, and realised I am perfectly normal.

But I don't think that what the majority rules to be normal necessarily is. Let us not forget that the 'majority' does as it's told.

Do you remember being at home with your Mum and Dad before you started school? Everything made sense then. For me, we had a cat and a dog, a TV in the kitchen, 4 living grandparents, My Mum did a 'woman's job' (Nurse) and my Dad a 'man's job' (Policeman).

Everything was normal. Until I went to school and discovered that some people had no pets, no TV, Father a nurse or parents on benefits etc.

On a minor scale this ignorance before encountering other families shows 'normal'.

Does it stand to reason that Garith's armless wonder is abnormal? Not if we didn't know anything else.

I think abnormal in this sense is only what you are not accustomed to.

As far as Mass murder - I think it depends which side you are on. A lot of people forget that Hitler did not have special powers. He was voted into his position because of his beliefs, much like any other political leader. (Except that cheating, scamming Bush.)

If you watch a film, with say a jewellery heist. They'll make out the thieves to be the good guys and the owner of the loot to be 'evil' (By which I mean he'll have a scar and smoke cigarettes.) Which would be the other way around if it were a cop film. Does this mean being a thief is normal or acceptable?

To Hitler, he was getting rid of dead wood. Which I'm sure, after he explained it to his colleagues, seemed perfectly normal. But hindsight is wonderful.

Another example - Christianity. Is it normal for a person to have a delusional belief in a higher power? Apparently yes, if you are a Christian, but no if your higher power is Aliens. They find it perfectly normal to think their god is omnipresent and watches and judges they every move, but they'll throw a conspiracy nut into an cell and ridicule them.

Society is riddled with abnormalities people have got used to, and normalities they have shun through fear. Make up your own mind what is normal.

I think as with good and evil, Normal/Good you like, Abnormal/Evil is what you shouldn't like!

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#145321 - 02/15/06 06:15 AM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
IX Von ZehEhv Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 708
I'll take a different stance, just to be abnormal

I consider normal to be what is 'mainstream', what is common within the context of the society in which one resides. This being the case, I much prefer to be 'abnormal', though I am not usually one for labels. I consider abnormal to be a spark in the otherwise mediocre surroundings of society.
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#145322 - 02/15/06 06:24 AM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
DarkApollyon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 581
Loc: Brighton, England
Not much to add I'm afraid, but thought I would say something as I found this thread quite stimulating......

What is considered normal/abnormal is culturally defined by time/place. (For example, What my parents considered 'normal' as UK citizens during the 1950s are not necessarily the same as what would be considered 'normal' in the UK in 2006).

What made me think was when I was studying for my Psychology A level a few years ago I wanted to do a coursework project on what is Sanity? This would have meant also looking at what is insanity? The arguments and line of thought on that one follow a very close parallel to the what is normal/abnormal debate - that is sanity tends to be defined by time and place, usually in the interests of those with power, or in the 'comfort' or 'security' of the herd.

Unfortunately I ran out of time and never got round to doing this particular project. It got replaced by one that was simpler and required less time (a case study in language development in young children, if I remember correctly), due to the time pressures of doing an A level over one acedemic year.
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#145323 - 02/15/06 01:19 PM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
Maya Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 1447
Loc: New England
Quote:

I don't really believe in normal or abnormal, because there really is no such thing unless you consider what the masses like or dont like.




Regardless of whether you believe in normal or abnormal, they still exist. What I think you are trying to say is that you do not agree with the common moral/psychological baggage attached to the two terms. On that point, I agree. Normal does exist, but "normal" does not mean "good". In fact, most people I've met that are usually considered "normal" bore me to death.

As for Nazism and genocide, I'm a little too tired to delve into that right now.

Quote:

Igor of "Young Frankenstein":

Yes, master, I got the brain of "Abbie Normal".




I love that movie!

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#145324 - 02/15/06 02:12 PM human morality ? [Re: DeLamar_J]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
Well, that's a subject like other ones, ok.

But what I appreciate in such discussions, it's when the whole thing is concerned. But apparently not here I see. That's doesn't mean I care, but to speak about something like this shouldn't be with the same good old examples.

I open the post, what do I read ? > Hitler, then the U.S.A.

Well, so why not speaking about Staline and it's 25 millions dead ? Or Native Americans ? See, this could be neverending.

I don't speak about "different races" here. War and the mass will always be war and the mass.

So, could we rise the subject about the "abnormal" being a synonym of morality ?
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#145325 - 02/15/06 04:28 PM Re: I also would consider... [Re: Nemo]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Outstanding! I was thinking of the same thing, Magister.

Great film.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#145326 - 02/16/06 06:09 PM Re: Abnormal [Re: RandomStranger]
DeLamar_J Offline


Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 124
Loc: Ohio
Quote:

"Others opinions on what is normal/abnormal. "

For what purpose? All that they are is opinion. What do you care
what other's opinions are?


I care what others opinions are because I learn new things that way.
_________________________
An insincere and evil friend is more to be feared than a wild beast; a wild beast may wound your body, but an evil friend will wound your mind. My personal web page---> http://www.myspace.com/39440105

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#145327 - 02/16/06 08:53 PM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
I find Boredom to be abnormal, but that is just my opinion.
"Hail Satan!"
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�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#145328 - 02/17/06 05:53 PM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
I prefer to see things a little differently. There is no "normal," but there certainly are norms . There are social norms, cultural norms, etc. I think it is important in lesser magic to understand this.

For example, if you are from the U.S., and wish to charm someone who grew up in Japan, you may want to understand the difference between a low-context and high-context culture. In a high-context culture (like Japan) eye contact is often considered rude, and only small children say "no." It is a social norm in Japan to insinuate, rather than be direct in communication.

just something to consider.
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#145329 - 02/17/06 07:18 PM Please... [Re: J. Hagalaz]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

It is a social norm in Japan to insinuate, rather than be direct in communication.




Please, sir. Could you be more general about that?

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#145330 - 02/17/06 09:52 PM Re: Please... [Re: Nemo]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
Quote:

Quote:

It is a social norm in Japan to insinuate, rather than be direct in communication.




Please, sir. Could you be more general about that?




Sure, probably.
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They are doomed because they cannot even glimpse beyond the construct that their masters have put into place. Their masters are doomed because they believe in the construct they created.

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#145331 - 02/17/06 10:27 PM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
Leviathan_Rising Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 81
Quote:

What is abnormal?...I don't really believe in normal or abnormal, because there really is no such thing unless you consider what the masses like or dont like.



That which is normal or natural is that which is consistent with one’s nature. Conversely, abnormal or unnatural behavior is that which suppresses or is inconsistent with one’s nature.
I honestly think that in order to understand the “norm” of the masses, one must come to understand human nature and behavior patterns on the individual level.
Quote:

Now, in the USA mass murder would be considered abnormal, because the mass of people do not like it. But when you have a whole society of people supporting mass murder, is it normal now?



When members of the largest portion of a population exhibit similar behavior with regard to the concept of morality, we see a trend or norm. In this regard, that which is the accepted norm is truly dictated by the majority.
Mass murder is as old as humanity: It was the norm during the militant expansion of Christianity and Islam; it was the norm in Germany during WWII; it is the current norm for the followers of Allah.
How many Muslims have decried the actions of their ‘fundamentalists’? I’m sure the blood of many in Africa would attest to the inaction of Islam’s majority.
Quote:

Back when Hitler was in power, he had many followers who supported his mass murder.



Surely we all have the capacity to disregard an unwanted portion of our societies. It is quite easy to turn a blind eye while those we don’t care for are forever wiped off the face of the earth.
_________________________
From the Deep,
~LR
==============================================================
"Ethical axioms are found and tested not very differently from the axioms of science. Truth is what stands the test of experience." -Einstein

"Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing. " -Emerson

"The freethinking of one age is the common sense of the next." -M. Arnold

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#145332 - 02/18/06 09:19 AM Re: Abnormal [Re: DeLamar_J]
d1g1t Offline


Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Southwest UK
What is normal?
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Wise men do not share wisdom, they share opinion.

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#145333 - 02/18/06 09:51 AM Re: Abnormal [Re: d1g1t]
Leviathan_Rising Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 81
Quote:

Main Entry: 1nor•mal
Pronunciation: 'nor-m&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin normalis, from norma
1 :Perpendicular; especially : perpendicular to a tangent at a point of tangency
2 a : according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle b : conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern
3 : occurring naturally <normal immunity>
4 a : of, relating to, or characterized by average intelligence or development b : free from mental disorder : Sane
5 a of a solution : having a concentration of one gram equivalent of solute per liter b : containing neither basic hydroxyl nor acid hydrogen <normal silver phosphate> c : not associated <normal molecules> d : having a straight-chain structure <normal pentane> <normal butyl alcohol>
6 of a subgroup : having the property that every coset produced by operating on the left by a given element is equal to the coset produced by operating on the right by the same element
7 : relating to, involving, or being a normal curve or normal distribution <normal approximation to the binomial distribution>
8 of a matrix : having the property of commutativity under multiplication by the transpose of the matrix each of whose elements is a conjugate complex number with respect to the corresponding element of the given matrix
synonym seeRegular




I tend to be referring to that which is natural when I use the word normal; however, the word seems to have been used several times in this thread in reference to a “type, standard, or regular pattern.”
_________________________
From the Deep,
~LR
==============================================================
"Ethical axioms are found and tested not very differently from the axioms of science. Truth is what stands the test of experience." -Einstein

"Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing. " -Emerson

"The freethinking of one age is the common sense of the next." -M. Arnold

Citizen

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#145334 - 02/18/06 11:37 AM Re: Abnormal [Re: Leviathan_Rising]
d1g1t Offline


Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Southwest UK
heh, well that's one way of putting it

The point I'm trying to make is, nothing is normal. While our society may judge someone on their personality, an alien race may judge their people by the size of their big toe! There are thousands of different cultures and societies all around the world and throughout time, all different.

Normal doesn't exist, and neither does abnormal.
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Wise men do not share wisdom, they share opinion.

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#145335 - 02/18/06 01:58 PM Re: Abnormal [Re: d1g1t]
Leviathan_Rising Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 81
Quote:

While our society may judge someone on their personality, an alien race may judge their people by the size of their big toe! There are thousands of different cultures and societies all around the world and throughout time, all different.



Very succinct.



I can picture the large toed aliens dictating the norm to those with small, crooked toes.

Perhaps those with malformed big toes go about blowing themselves up to make a point, all the while believing that after their martyrdom their souls (or soles) would be taken to a place where there will be seventy-two beings waiting to show them big toes that have never before been seen by any other being.

Another portion of their society would believe that if they presented their big toes in certain manner their souls would live on after death in a wonderful big toe paradise where there are magnificent shoes designed just for them.

Certainly there would be others who go about trying to establish the average size, shape, and color of all big toes in order to understand the norm.

Were they to ask me for advice I would tell them, “Don’t waste your time looking at the big-toes of others. Why does the norm of all toes matter to you anyway? Focus on making your own big-toe into something that is incredible in your own eyes. Make your big toe into a great toe.”



Normal, when used as a category, is rather elusive.

"Hail Great Toes!"
_________________________
From the Deep,
~LR
==============================================================
"Ethical axioms are found and tested not very differently from the axioms of science. Truth is what stands the test of experience." -Einstein

"Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing. " -Emerson

"The freethinking of one age is the common sense of the next." -M. Arnold

Citizen

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