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#145619 - 02/21/06 04:23 PM Re: Abortion [Re: PatternPop]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

I don't think you should abort no matter what. You can always put the child up for adoption.





Hardly any kids would be adopted if NO ONE had an abortion. there would be waaaay, waaaay too many kids for anyone to take care of. Plus, pregnancy changes the body in a really drastic way, its not as simple as 'just give it up for adoption'.

I dont understand how you can post on a satanism message board and fail to realize that most people do not have genes that are worth passing on, and shouldnt be encouraged to breed. Much less encouraged to breed and then let someone else raise the children for them. ugh.
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#145620 - 02/21/06 04:24 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Satanya]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

Well, I have never heard of abortions being done without general anesthesia and I have never heard of any salt-solution -- not even in Brazil and Iīm actually getting my degree next year in surgery procedures, which does not include any major in body-piercing procedures, I donīt believe body-piercing could even be qualified as a medical procedure or surgery.




There are most definitely times when abortions are done without general anesthesia. If it is a first trimester, vacuum abortion, they generally use a caudal block which numbs you from the waist down. You are still well aware of what is going on around you, unfortunately.

I would agree, body piercing is not usually considered a surgical procedure.




Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#145621 - 02/21/06 04:33 PM Re: Abortion [Re: False_Messiah78]
DarkWater Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 784
Loc: SinCity
Quote:

My view on abortion truly is the Satanic third side!



I don't think so.


You conclude that:

Quote:

Abortion is not, and should not be used as, birth control.



Yet, you do not offer an argument for this conclusion. Instead, you make moral law out of what is merely a personal, arbitrary standard. As you state:

Quote:

Responsibility to the responsible - if you chose to indulge in the pleasures of the flesh then you must take responsibility for the consequences of such actions.



For the sake of argument, I'll grant that one must be responsible for the consequences of one's sexual indulgences. But why would opting for an abortion not be a responsible action? Simply because it grates your sensibilities is no more sufficient reason than the fact that it suits mine just fine. You need to offer an argument for your conclusion, not personal dogma.


You go on to say:

Quote:

As long as you are financially able to care for a baby then you must care for that baby - not simply 'eliminate the problem'.



Why? Because you say so? I presume you will reply that one must care for the baby because it is the only responsible action. But, as already noted, you have given me no reason to believe this.


Quote:

If that means putting YOUR life on hold for eighteen years, SO BE IT!



This statement surprises me, particularly coming from a Satanist. I like you, False Messiah, so please don't take my criticism as a personal attack, but your statements clearly run against the grain of some Satanic fundamentals. For instance, why would you let an eliminateable factor dictate how you live your life, particularly if that factor takes away from your happiness? I suspect you will say that an unborn child is not an "eliminateable factor," and so my question is moot. But if this is true, I need an argument to support that conclusion. Personal sentiment is not reason enough.


Finally, I found this confusing:

Quote:

[Abortion is acceptable:]
c) When birth control was used and failed resulting in an unwanted pregnancy.



In other words, if the on-the-spot method of birth control fails, abortion can be used as a backup method. However, to repeat a quote, you also claim:

Quote:

Abortion is not, and should not be used as, birth control.



Let's see if I understand...

If the condom breaks, abortion is fine.
If you did not use a condom, abortion is wrong.

If she faithfully takes the pill but still becomes pregnant, abortion is fine.
If she missed a pill and becomes pregnant, abortion is wrong.

Again, why?


Once more, I am not trying to be mean or poke fun. The sound of my voice sometimes resembles that of a braying jackass, but in speaking with you I have tried to play the role of philosopher. You stated that your opinion came from research for a philosophy paper. Had you been in my class and submitted these ideas to me, I would have given you these same comments. I likely would also have given you a high grade for working through the issue so systematically, even if your conclusions lack the support of solid argument.


Class dismissed.


DarkWater


p.s. I don't have my Satanic Bible handy, so I must paraphrase Satan's words:

He who says to me "Thou Shalt" shall be my mortal foe!

Opinion is one thing. Moral dogma pawned off as law is quite another.

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#145622 - 02/21/06 04:35 PM Re: Abortion [Re: False_Messiah78]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:



** It is important to note, ladies, that alcohol and/or tobacco use drastically reduces the effectiveness of birth control pills, patches, and injections. Also, condoms do, albeit rarely, break.




Ive read every single information packet thats come with my birth control pills and it said nothing of the sort. Ive read the entire PDR guide to womens health and read nothing of the sort. Smoking can increase your risk of death (blood clotting) on hormonal birth control, but doesnt do anything to the effectiveness of the actual hormones and drugs, neither does alcohol. The main cause of birth control failing is using it incorrectly. and when condoms break emergency contraceptives are available, and can be used one or two days after unprotected sex (even though the sooner its taken, the better). I smoke, and if somehow my birth control pills were less effective because of that I would get an iud. (Im not afraid of blood clots because I have a condition where my blood does not clot normally)...


I think a huge reason why teen pregnancy is a problem in america is because our sex education is so shitty. I went and read about birth control and abortion on my own before I ever had sex, but its not realistic to expect the majority of kids to do that.



edit: DARKWATER- what an excellent reply! I read an interesting article once called 'the only moral abortion is MY abortion" that hit on many of the points you made. I never understood why abortion is considered irresponsible- so many people I knew in high school used drugs/alcohol before they knew they were pregnant and decided to get abortions, and that it was very much for the best. And the main problem I have with the post you quoted is that the person is saying that a child should be a punishment for having sex- no child should be used as a punishment for anything. another annoying thing to hear is that its ok to get x amount of abortions, but not any more than that- sort of falls in line with the idea that abortion shouldnt be used as birth control... well, it controls birth, so I would say its birth control no matter how much you do it.


Edited by uncleherpe (02/21/06 04:42 PM)
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#145623 - 02/21/06 05:25 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
VKat Offline


Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 157
Loc: Northern California
I have wanted to write a rant on this for awhile.

To start, where does life begin? Some believe that using any means of birth control is killing a life, including condoms, birth control pills. Most do not realize that fertilization of an egg happens with birth control pills. The egg does not stick to the walls of the uterus and thatís what prevents pregnancy, in other words, mini abortion. How can you say that removing a fetus that has yet to even develop a brain as being worse then disconnecting someone that is brain dead? Of course there are a people against disconnecting someone that is brain dead. Would have to review facts again on when development of a fetus takes place. Iíve notice that some web pages skew the facts on how far along a fetus is. They use third term pictures as first term examples. Second term and third term abortions are a bit out there for me. I think there is defiantly a limit on when a fetus is considered alive or just an extension of that person.

I knew a girl in high school who got pregnant young. Friend of a friend, she used, got worse as she got older. Her daughter bounced from party to party getting dragged along with her. Watched her mother do drugs and have sex. It took four years for her daughter to get taken away from her. The only reason why she finally got taken away was because the parents of the father wanted to take care of her. Other wise she would have remained with her mother. She got pregnant again, after having told my friend that shooting up was great birth control. The baby was born addicted, why no one has made laws to lock up these mothers during their pregnancy I donít know. The baby was tested at birth, having it in his system all rights from the mother where taken away, even visitation. How come most people focus on the big picture, but forget about the little details. What about laws that protect the fetus during the pregnancy. I have an adopted cousin that was born with fetal alcohol syndrome, can we say tie the tubes of the mother? She just committed a crime, as far as Iím concerned, and there is proof. Some people should just not have kids, period. Some kids would be better off dead then have someone as a mother that doesnít want to be.

It kills me how many kids are in the welfare system, which no one cares about. So much discussionís about abortion and no discussions about the lost kids. All the people who think abortion is wrong should go out and adopt a child. Give action to their words, all talk and no walk. It makes me laugh that some people think that their genetics are necessarily going to create anything more then the next persons. There is a lot more too it then just genetics, not to mention itís combined with another persons. Especially after I read how much most people dislike their parents, but think their genetics are superior? Okay, so take two dumb assís and breed those together, chances are you will get another dumb ass. There is still a chance that you will end up with an intelligent person. Same goes, two intelligent people can create a dumb ass. To put it simply.

Also, what people do not understand is that if you took the right away for a woman to have an abortion, she will do it herself. I believe that this is the biggest topic that keeps the current laws available. Women will kill themselves not to have children, intentionally or while giving themselves abortions. Then clinics will go underground, this is not something that you can stop people from doing, illegal or not. Every time a law is made to protect someone, anotherís rights are taken away. That is just the way it is, can not make everyone happy.

Now personally, I take birth control. I have two kids, which I took their dad into consideration when I decided to keep them. Though I also think itís good for kids to have siblings. Iím not going to have another kid, pre negotiated with anyone that can get me pregnant, that I would have sex with. If I get pregnant some how I am not having another one. I could not emotionally handle having another kid right now. I do not think it is fair to split the attention I give my kids into thirds. Every time you have a kid it takes away from the kids that are already there. Financially that would put me into the category of barely getting by without help. Not to mention the damage it does to your body. Everyone acts like itís a walk in the park, for some maybe, but pop out a couple and see how your body deals with it. I have a couple of complications that I can live with for awhile but will eventually have to have surgery to fix. Any kind of back leg, hip, bone problem that you have will probably advance the problem by years. Itís a matter of choice, if you want to do damage on yourself fine. However itís illegal for anyone to cut your hair without your permission. I may in the future, when my kids are older, choose to adopt. Depending on if I decide I really enjoy being a mother that much. I will adopt an older kid, which without me probably wonít have a chance of finding a home. Some of the people against abortion canít have kids and want to adopt babies but wonít adopt children. Itís just hypocritical to be against abortion and allow more lives to be created without stepping forward and taking care of even one of those lives already here.

I was watching the Olympics. They did a story about a skier who won gold. His parents where on vacation found him. The parent had abandoned the baby in South Africa (not sure if thatís the right location). The country allowed them to adopt him. Someoneís trash is someoneís treasure.

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#145624 - 02/21/06 06:12 PM Re: Abortion [Re: PatternPop]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Quote:

I don't think you should abort no matter what. You can always put the child up for adoption.




Another troll!

And people keep feeding them!

This person has created an account for the sole purpose of posting the above commentary. No introductions, no other messages... Of course, if you leave a piece of cake uncovered, flies will start circling!

I really hate how this topic keeps popping up in this board every few months and every time it generates a long string of responses. While other posts with topics related to Satanism get poor attention and activity.

Can anybody just ABORT this thread?
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#145625 - 02/22/06 03:44 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
^^^its really too bad that youve been forced to click on the thread and read the replies.
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#145626 - 02/22/06 06:56 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

But yes... I am also curious about people's opinions on declawing cats. Because I've heard some people find it cruel.




Not sure what one has to do with the other, but I prefer not to get into the "this is my stand on abortion" debate.

I will, however, comment on the declawing of a cat since the government hasn't gotten their mitts on that one yet! They have out now a humane solution to the human vs. catclaw problem (other than the obvious one of letting your cat go outside to scratch on the natural substances it was made to scratch on.) I have not tried them myself, preferring to let my cats be cats, but they are little caps that fit over of cat's claws. This supposedly keeps them from destroying your precious furniture. Theoretically they should work. My question is how does one get the cat to cooperate to apply them to the claws, and do they stay on well? If interested check it out here.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#145627 - 02/22/06 01:14 PM Re: Abortion [Re: DarkWater]
False_Messiah78 Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 1449
Loc: New York State
No offence taken, Dark Water. I read your post they way you intended it - as constructive criticism of my arguement.

You raise some valid points - I should have proofread and clarified my post a bit better.

When I wrote it I was trying to recall an essay that I had written 5 years ago which did back up the statements I made.

I realized when I was writing the post that I am still very much conflicted on this issue - I was pretty much putting down my thoughts on the matter. Anyone here is free to disagree with them.

One thing I want to clarify was my position on abortion as birth control. What I meant by this statement was that, in my opinion, I one wishes not to get pregnant then they should use preventative birth control measures first and in the unlikely event that they fail abortion remains an option.

I am opposed to the mentality of - Screw the condom (pill, patch, etc.), if I get pregnant I can have an abortion.

Hope that cleared that matter up.


Also, when I say that my view is the Third Side view what I mean is I donít have an ďAbortion is badĒ or ďabortion is goodĒ attitude. My feeling on whether it is ďgoodĒ or ďbadĒ is decided on a case-by-case basis.

Iím sure if I ever got a girl pregnant I may throw my whole philosophy on it out the window! (I donít ever want to have children Ė I detest the little buggers).
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#145628 - 02/22/06 01:17 PM Re: Abortion [Re: uncleherpe]
False_Messiah78 Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 1449
Loc: New York State
Well, that is the information that was given to me in a 400 level college course: Human Sexuality.

Apparently that information was not accurate. I am inclined to trust the PDR and pill manufacturers than I will a college instructor.
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#145629 - 02/22/06 07:59 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
LKRice Offline

CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 6358
I'm curious as to when you plan on finally posting your required introduction.
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#145630 - 02/23/06 02:55 PM Re: Abortion [Re: uncleherpe]
VKat Offline


Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 157
Loc: Northern California
Quote:

Ive read every single information packet thats come with my birth control pills and it said nothing of the sort.




Like sex education and schools, do not expect that every packet of birth control pills is going to have all side affects listed. Did you know that certain kinds of birth control pills can cause traumatic hair loss in women? Also when people took ďfin finĒ for weight loss, nothing said it would give them heart attacks. Have to remember that the drug companies do not really want you to know about potential side affects.

Hair loss and birth control;
http://webcenter.health.webmd.netscape.com/content/article/110/109748

Since approval by the FDA in 1960, oral contraception (the Pill) has become one of the most popular forms of birth control used today. Millions of women are prescribed the Pill each year in this country, but very few are aware that oral contraceptives are a common trigger of hair loss.

I found this out after asking a twenty six year old girl on how it was that she was loosing her hair. Finding out that it was directly related to her IUD. The IUD she was using is called Mirena. The UID releases levonorgestrel into the intrauterine system. Notice the side affects mention nothing of hair loss.

http://www.mirena-us.com/faq.html#sideeffects

The scary thing to me is not only the hair loss. I used a birth control pill called seasonale that also uses levonorgestrel.
http://www.seasonale.com/LearnAboutSeasonale/Default.aspx#AL1
Iíve used seven or more different types of birth control. I stopped using this one because I noticed it was darkening and cracking my usual long nails. After I stopped using seasonale you could see the visible line on my nails. I have to wonder what other kind of side affects it was having on me, since your hair and nails are directly related to your health.

Also the emfamous Norplant uses leyonorgestrel. This website claims that norplant is no longer sold, but I think it is still available. http://www.adrugrecall.com/norplant/norplant.html
However Iíve seen lost of complaints by people who had norplant, including problems that never went away even after the implant was removed. I remember seeing shows, and also doing a little google search leads to lots of posts by women with problems they believe came from having norplant.
ďWyeth also made another major announcement at this time: they were voluntarily recalling Norplant permanently. While the company claimed the recall was due to limitations in component supplies, there were also Norplant side effect concerns at that time. Norplant could cause irregular and excessive bleeding, infection at the insertion site, capsule expulsion, migraine, and breast abnormalities. Other Norplant side effects include: nausea, dizziness, breast soreness, acne, weight gain, depression, skin discoloration, ovarian cysts, hair loss, and removal difficulties.Ē

ďBreast abnormalitiesĒ, yeah like cancer. Of course from what I understand you can get cancer from just about anything.
Quote:

so many people I knew in high school used drugs/alcohol before they knew they were pregnant and decided to get abortions, and that it was very much for the best.



Also, I have read. Which I would have to go looking for written information that drug and alcohol use during the first trimesters doesnít cause problems with the baby. I wouldnít suggest it, but that wouldnít be a good reason to have an abortion. Many women drink and find out that they are pregnant, depends on what stage in pregnancy they are in.

P.S. In my opinion kids are only a punishment if you have to many of them, or if your a moron. Not saying that choosing not to have kids makes you a moron. Saying that once you have them if you don't learn something from them then you are a moron.

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#145631 - 02/23/06 07:05 PM Re: Abortion [Re: VKat]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
I read the info packets AND the entire pdr womens health guide, which has a perscription drug section. I know all the weird freak side effects (did you know that the shot can cause nipple bleeding...woah)

The people who did drugs and alcohol... well, they were screwed up and thats more of a reason to stop than anything else. most of them were meth addicts, and if we all had a nickel for each time an addict chose drugs over themselves or loved ones... the midwest ROCKS.
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#145632 - 02/24/06 05:11 AM Re: Declawing cats. [Re: Tyrson]
verdelet Offline


Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 12
Loc: Sunny England(oh, the sarcasm)
I am in two minds about abortion

I agree with it when the woman has a heart problem or such like so that, upon having the baby, she will die or be severely disabled (self-preservation) and i agree with abortion if the mother knows the baby will die either upon birth or after its few short years

I dont agree with it if the mother simply wants to get rid of it for no good reason>

but then again, I dont know.

Its the mothers body and the mothers baby and its her choice. I cannot truly decipher what I feel on abortion as I am yet to have a child and experience that emotional attatchment.


On the declawing of cats.
It sounds cruel and it is auite silly. Cats were born with claws because they NEED them.
to climb, to catch food, to survive basically.
It sounds to me like a fashion statement, pretty much the smae as the docking of a dobermans tail.
this was for fashion and I agree with it because the dog is in no pain if performed correctly.
their (i cannot spell it) dew-claw-the claw about three centimetres above the paw is removed becasue if it comes off then it can cause pain
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#145633 - 02/24/06 09:55 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
crackergirl Offline


Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 323
Loc: Kansas
Quote:

I'm curious as to people's opinions on abortion, because I've heard so many different opinions on it, and a lot of people with the same backround have different opinions on it.



If something isn't wanted, you get rid of it. If it's bound to cause more harm to yourself than good, cast it away. That's what I'd do anyway.

Quote:


But yes... I am also curious about people's opinions on declawing cats. Because I've heard some people find it cruel.



Ever had an itch you couldn't scratch? Ever had an itch you couldn't scratch because someone pulled out your fingernails? Cats can be trained just as well as dogs. Declawed cats are the way they are because their owners were too lazy to teach them to stay the hell away from the leather sofa.

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