Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#145543 - 02/15/06 07:31 PM Abortion
Ashke Offline


Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 16
Loc: IL
I'm curious as to people's opinions on abortion, because I've heard so many different opinions on it, and a lot of people with the same backround have different opinions on it.

But yes... I am also curious about people's opinions on declawing cats. Because I've heard some people find it cruel.
_________________________
Self-denial is the shining sore on the leprous body of Christianity. Oscar Wilde Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. Oscar Wilde Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people. ~Oscar Wilde

Top
#145545 - 02/15/06 09:01 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
My parents declawed my precious Siamese because she was hurting the furniture and they had a problem declawing her. (they had this great idea that putting a sock on her head would make it easier). At first I was ok with the idea, because I thought they were just going to remove the claw root... Nope, the clipped off all her toe tips, and I was very upset I was only 11 at the time. They also threatened to put her to sleep because she kept peeing all over the place. So when I was 12 I took the time to actually try to train her (she being 10), and it worked. She stopped peeing and she learned a few tricks. I have my cat(Guinness) trained and I am working on socializing my iguana (now free ranged). I refuse to declaw either of them, because both are trained to sit there and have their nails clipped without a fuss. Chopping up an animal because you can't handle it, is mean.

Abortion: Is a very gross thing. I would never get one, though I would not stop someone from getting one. I wouldn't like them for a while, but it isn't my place to try and convince them. I have gotten into too many arguments over this issue no matter how many times I have explained it. Abortion is not natural and can have more adverse effects on the female body than if she were to carry it, I have had too many friends get them and watch them go through hell while their bodies tried to balance out, plus I would get attatched and motherly. If someone else wants to go and get one done, just don't tell me about it. The images make me yak.


Edited by tovasshi (02/15/06 09:03 PM)
_________________________
Hi.

Top
#145546 - 02/15/06 09:02 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Tyrson Offline


Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
I believe that is best left to Woman involved. And that no one has the right to dictate or impose their moral values on another.

Hail
_________________________
"When you finally understand the universe, it will not only be stranger than you imagine, it will be stranger than you can imagine." Arthur C. Clarke "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" Aleister Crowley

Top
#145547 - 02/15/06 09:06 PM Re: Declawing cats. [Re: ]
Tyrson Offline


Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
It is mutilation. Now if a person chooses to do what they will to themselves that is all together another thing.

Hail
_________________________
"When you finally understand the universe, it will not only be stranger than you imagine, it will be stranger than you can imagine." Arthur C. Clarke "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" Aleister Crowley

Top
#145548 - 02/15/06 09:07 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Obolisk Offline


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 30
Quote:

I'm curious as to people's opinions on abortion, because I've heard so many different opinions on it, and a lot of people with the same backround have different opinions on it.



Indifference. If a woman wants one she should have access to it. It should be available on a legal balancing test, unrestricted first tri, regulated second tri, and for defects or medical necessity third tri. Information is power, I don't think the fed. gag order should be tolerated or the Dr. / Patient relationship should be invaded. I know I want my doctor to tell me everything when I ask him, not just the crap that Bush approves.


Quote:

But yes... I am also curious about people's opinions on declawing cats. Because I've heard some people find it cruel.



Again, indifference. Personally I wouldn't do it. You declaw it, you keep it in the house so that it doesn't need what you took from it. Take responsibility for what you do.

Top
#145549 - 02/15/06 10:23 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
I think people who declaws cats should be aborted...
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


Top
#145550 - 02/16/06 05:31 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
IX Von ZehEhv Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 708
I would certainly like to know the legal ramifications of a 90th trimester abortion in that case
_________________________
"Some people dream of success... while others wake up and work hard at it." - Author unknown

Top
#145551 - 02/16/06 07:39 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Quote:

because I've heard so many different opinions on it, and a lot of people with the same backround have different opinions on it.





That might be because Satanists are individuals above all else.

Abortion is one of the many issues where there is a third side. That third side is to avoid pregnancy, therefore negating the question.

Despite what one hears, very few pregnancys are "accidental." Almost all forms of birth control are 92%-98% effective per event of sexual intercourse. The person who gets pregnant on the pill or shot or even condoms used with spermicide should play Lotto.

Personally I am both pro-choice and, unlike most, pro-abortion in certain cases. The need for legal abortion, in my opinion, outweighs the moral problems people may have. If someone isn't smart enough to use protection, they probably aren't smart enough to be a decent parent.

In my perfect world all babies would be reversibly sterilized at birth. Upon majority or marriage they would undergo genetic testing and make informed choices regarding breeding.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

Top
#145552 - 02/16/06 09:06 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Shiva Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 10/31/01
Posts: 2762
Loc: Ormond Beach, FL
On abortion, I'm pro-choice. Then again, I'm also bias on the subject because if it hadn't been for an emergency abortion I would not be here to write this.

While I loathe the type of people who regularly use abortion instead of birth control, I do believe people should have the right to make that choice. Recently I knew someone who elected to terminate her pregnancy because there were detected abnormalities. She chose not to bring a greatly disadvantaged child into the world and I understand that completely.

As far as declawing cats go, for the most part I am against it. But again, I do believe that there are exceptions to be made. For example, I'm seriously considering having one of my cats declawed. The reason for this is simply because she has six toes on each foot, and the claw on one of the extra digits has a tendency to curl underneath and embed itself into her paw. When I see her start hobbling, it's a Hell of a process to hold her down and literally saw through the claw to remove the sharp tip that is stuck in her flesh.

So despite my distaste for the process, I probably will end up taking her in for the procedure.
_________________________
Rev. Shiva Rodriguez
Shiva's World / Headless Historicals / Siren Productions Media / Predatory Moon

"The ugliest of trades have their moments of pleasure. Now, if I were a grave-digger, or even a hangman, there are some people I could work for with a great deal of enjoyment." - Douglas Jerrold

Top
#145553 - 02/16/06 09:30 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
These days it is very easy to prevent pregnancy -- we even have the Morning-After pill.

I am not against abortion completely though, there are N cases where the best choice would be not to bring a child into the world: diseases, deffects, rape victims, young age, poverty, etc: a number of cases that cannot always be predicted.

Top
#145554 - 02/16/06 10:17 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>I'm curious as to people's opinions on abortion, because
>>I've heard so many different opinions on it,

My overall view on abortion? It's the most overly-tiresome political issue that has much more to do with sensationalism, self-righteousness, and second agenda-pushing, than with actual solutions, reasoning or science. Jesus freaks and left-wings alike just jump on whichever side they've been told to jump on, just like how it is with other sensationalist issues like gun control and captial punishment. You can probably go to any internet forum, ask the same question, and have a thread of flame wars that goes on for 4 weeks.

Regarding being "pro-choice" or "pro-life", I wrote a short article on this for The Trident. In summary, all that these titles really mean is whether or not one is in favor of having laws that outlaw abortion. People who are in favor of such laws are by definition "pro-life"; people (like myself) who aren't are by definition "pro-choice". The action one would personally take regarding a pregnancy is irrelevent to the terminology.

I also don't buy the idea of this being strictly "a woman's issue". If the law is going to make a man pay child support for a child that he never wanted, I certainly think that men should have some say when it comes to terminating a pregnancy. Especially since there are some cruel women out there who will use things like pregnancy to keep a boyfriend from breaking up.

>>I am also curious about people's opinions on declawing
>>cats.

It's not something I personally condone, but Satan knows the thought has crossed my mind when certain cats have jumped on my lap and used me as a human pin cushion. Is it worse than chopping a cats balls off? I don't know. I'm not even a pet owner.

>>If someone else wants to go and get one done, just
>>don't tell me about it. The images make me yak. [tovasshi]

Are you refering to images of 3rd-trimester abortions like the ones you see in propaganda films like "The Silent Scream"? Otherwise, I can't imagine your run of the mill abortion slide-shows being any more gross than an appendix removal.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
#145555 - 02/16/06 11:15 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Ygraine]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
If someone isn't smart enough to use protection, they probably aren't smart enough to be a decent parent.

In my perfect world all babies would be reversibly sterilized at birth. Upon majority or marriage they would undergo genetic testing and make informed choices regarding breeding.


Bingo, and bingo.

Naturally, I endorse contraception (and even abstinence, if that's what it takes) more emphatically and heartily than abortion, because a) it's better to prevent that problem in the first place and b) The "it could've been Hitler or Beethoven" puzzle makes me the *teensiest bit* philosophically ambivalent about abortion, even though I'm still firmly pro-choice and, in various cases, unapologetically pro-abortion. Suffice it to say, abortion isn't "wheeee, fun," so it's better to just take the pill and put on a condom and not have to deal with all the personal, emotional, physical, ethical, economic, and philosophical baggage that comes along, or could come along, with having to get an abortion.

Assorted people should not be allowed or encouraged to have children, and certainly, no one should be forced to have a child, because this puts strains on the parents, the child, and on the rest of the world.

And yes, it would be a whole lot better if people could just be reversibly sterilized at birth, or even before.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#145556 - 02/16/06 02:30 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Bill_M]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
>>Are you refering to images of 3rd-trimester abortions like the ones you see in propaganda films like "The Silent Scream"? Otherwise, I can't imagine your run of the mill abortion slide-shows being any more gross than an appendix removal.<<

No, I never saw any propaganda of any kind for pro-lifers. What I know is what my friends have told me about their experiences. I had about five friends get them and each one decided it was cool to tell me about it. At first I was interested in learning these things, because medical procedures interest me. After hearing a few stories and what they went through... Ugh, no more. The problem is, a lot of them have a guilt complex and feel the need to get graphic... very graphic... and they never talk about the abortus, just their bodies and the equipment used. One of my friends lied about how far along she was and that didn't go to well...

My choice to never have one has nothing to do with this however. I am hormonally sensative, pregnancy, let alone abortion, could send me into seizures and potentially kill me. Abortion for me would be even more dangerous.


Edited by tovasshi (02/16/06 02:54 PM)
_________________________
Hi.

Top
#145557 - 02/16/06 03:11 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Shiva]
LKRice Offline

CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 6359
Would the vet be able to do a partial declawing to remove the extra claw on each foot?
_________________________
Director
Committee for the
Promotion of Vice and
Prevention of Virtue

Top
#145558 - 02/16/06 03:20 PM Re: Abortion [Re: tovasshi]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
Quote:

... and they never talk about the abortus, just their bodies and the equipment used. One of my friends lied about how far along she was and that didn't go to well...




That sounds rather odd because you can´t lie to a doctor -- for one tests are made before operation begins, also, general anesthesia is applied in cases of abortion, before you reach the count of ten you black out: no surgery equipment is ever usually seen by the patient.

Also, you can either be interested in medical procedure or feel like yak. Both is not exactly physically possible to occur.

Top
#145559 - 02/16/06 03:25 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Satanya]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:

Also, you can either be interested in medical procedure or feel like yak. Both is not exactly physically possible to occur.




Though it would be humourous to hear of the neurosurgeon who vomited everytime he performed brain surgery.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





Top
#145560 - 02/16/06 03:35 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Poetaster]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
Half-valid point. If he heaved during the first year of medical school, he would have likely lost interest.

Interest & reactions are different things. Also you are probably exaggerating -- vomited during first couple of surgeries would sound more understandable than every time.

Top
#145561 - 02/16/06 03:37 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Satanya]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
A miserable attempt at humour I assure you.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





Top
#145562 - 02/16/06 03:43 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Satanya]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
This particular friend was awake. The only put you out for certain procedures. She got the salt solution done, and she was a week past the limit for that procedure. Her main problem wasn't witht he procedure tho, it was with her hormones readjusting. Her body did all kinds of weird things.

>Also, you can either be interested in medical procedure or feel like yak. Both is not exactly physically possible to occur.<

Not so. I have watched my boyfriend get something bloody done in the dentists chair no problem. I have heard details of my sister's many tumour removals no problem. I have seen people get piercings no problem. The only things I have problems looking at or thinking about are child birth, eye surgery, abortion and nose jobs.
_________________________
Hi.

Top
#145563 - 02/16/06 03:54 PM Re: Abortion [Re: tovasshi]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
Well, I have never heard of abortions being done without general anesthesia and I have never heard of any salt-solution -- not even in Brazil and I´m actually getting my degree next year in surgery procedures, which does not include any major in body-piercing procedures, I don´t believe body-piercing could even be qualified as a medical procedure or surgery.

Top
#145564 - 02/16/06 04:05 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Satanya]
crackergirl Offline


Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 323
Loc: Kansas
I think it was a joke. It reminded me of SouthPark. Stan gets queasy too. Poor little foul-mouthed cartoon boy.

Top
#145565 - 02/16/06 04:53 PM Re: Abortion [Re: LKRice]
Shiva Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 10/31/01
Posts: 2762
Loc: Ormond Beach, FL
Would the vet be able to do a partial declawing to remove the extra claw on each foot?

I imagine that will be the case, although considering were the extra toes are situated, it will probably be tricky.
_________________________
Rev. Shiva Rodriguez
Shiva's World / Headless Historicals / Siren Productions Media / Predatory Moon

"The ugliest of trades have their moments of pleasure. Now, if I were a grave-digger, or even a hangman, there are some people I could work for with a great deal of enjoyment." - Douglas Jerrold

Top
#145566 - 02/16/06 05:00 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Satanya]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
It depends if you go to a hospital or a clinic. It also depends on where you are. If you go to a hospital, they use general anaesthetic, if you go to a clinic they give you local anaesthetic. Here in Canada, most abortions are done in seperate clinics. Different methods are available in different countries.
_________________________
Hi.

Top
#145567 - 02/16/06 05:21 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Bill_M]
Obolisk Offline


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 30
Quote:

I also don't buy the idea of this being strictly "a woman's issue". If the law is going to make a man pay child support for a child that he never wanted, I certainly think that men should have some say when it comes to terminating a pregnancy.


Philosophically, I appreciate and share your position, having had a girl play that card on me before. Procedurally though, I have a difficult time figuring out how it would be practically implemented. Once the kid is born, the rights of both parents go out the window and a duty is imposed on them both with the "best interests of the child" standard. His obligations don't arise until then, and they are simultaneous to hers. You can't contract away your duty to support a child either, so a pre-sex/pre-nup doesn't work. We'd have to fundamentally alter the system to do otherwise.

Top
#145568 - 02/16/06 05:33 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Maya Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 1447
Loc: New England
I believe that abortion should be legal up to a certain stage in the pregnancy, unless there is great danger to the mother. I do not, however, believe that abortion for the sake of convenience should be encouraged. In fact, I find such an action quite deplorable. I believe that birth control and adoption of unwanted children should be encouraged far above abortion.

I also believe that some people should just not be allowed to reproduce, even if that means forced sterilization. Personally, I think that people should have to obtain licenses to have children. You have to get a license to drive a car or own a gun (in some places, at least). Raising children requires more responsibility than either one of the afore mentioned activities.

The practice of de-clawing, as well as cropping, should be illegal. Both are cruel, though de-clawing is especially despicable. Of course, there are some exceptions when the procedures are for whatever reason in the animal's best interest. However, this is very rarely the case.

Top
#145569 - 02/16/06 06:09 PM Re: Abortion [Re: tovasshi]
Ceallach Offline


Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 245
Loc: Northern Virginia, USA
Actually, at least back in 1994, clinics here (Near DC) also used general, though it was more money than local. I had a late-term D&C due to a miscarriage and was put under general. Because the clinic also did abortions, I got to deal w/ the pro-lifers, and I'm assuming those receiving abortions would've had the same options open to them I did (general vs local).
_________________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

Top
#145570 - 02/16/06 07:41 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Bill_M]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

If the law is going to make a man pay child support for a child that he never wanted, I certainly think that men should have some say when it comes to terminating a pregnancy. Especially since there are some cruel women out there who will use things like pregnancy to keep a boyfriend from breaking up.







how does one have a 'say'? It either gets carried to term or it doesnt, and I think its completely wrong for anyone to choose except the person who actually CARRIES THE FETUS. Its not fair to the guy, but biology isnt fair to the woman. so thats as 'even' as its gonna get- the guy can choose to be financially responsible ONLY.



-------


my personal opinion? abortion rocks. If it wasnt such a social no no I probably would have reccomended it to some of the people I know.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

Top
#145571 - 02/16/06 08:43 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ceallach]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
I also said it depends where you are. I never said all. What I said was a generalization.
_________________________
Hi.

Top
#145572 - 02/16/06 09:13 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ceallach]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

Actually, at least back in 1994, clinics here (Near DC) also used general, though it was more money than local. I had a late-term D&C due to a miscarriage and was put under general. Because the clinic also did abortions, I got to deal w/ the pro-lifers, and I'm assuming those receiving abortions would've had the same options open to them I did (general vs local).





I drove a friend to and from an abortion, and they just took some pills about 45minutes to an hour beforehand- they didnt go under because it was too expensive.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

Top
#145573 - 02/16/06 09:19 PM Re: Abortion [Re: uncleherpe]
Ceallach Offline


Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 245
Loc: Northern Virginia, USA
Quote:


I drove a friend to and from an abortion, and they just took some pills about 45minutes to an hour beforehand- they didnt go under because it was too expensive.




Aye; I was too emotionally attached to the baby though so I opted to take a nap; I don't want to think about what a wreck I'd've been, had I been awake hehe.
I guess the pills she took were a sort of drug cocktail like valium, painkillers, etc to zone you out? Never had it before, but heard of it Probably has less side effects than the general too (nausea and whatnot)
_________________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

Top
#145574 - 02/16/06 09:26 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ceallach]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

Quote:


I drove a friend to and from an abortion, and they just took some pills about 45minutes to an hour beforehand- they didnt go under because it was too expensive.




Aye; I was too emotionally attached to the baby though so I opted to take a nap; I don't want to think about what a wreck I'd've been, had I been awake hehe.
I guess the pills she took were a sort of drug cocktail like valium, painkillers, etc to zone you out? Never had it before, but heard of it Probably has less side effects than the general too (nausea and whatnot)




yeah vicodin, ibuprofin and something else. She felt really guilty, I think she stayed awake as a sort of self punishment in addition to the money thing. it was her 2nd abortion in a year so she felt really bad. She barely got fucked every 3 months MAX, but it seemed like when ever her so wanted to have sex she was ovulating.. i guess? it was weird.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

Top
#145575 - 02/16/06 10:12 PM The Anti-Interference, Anti-Fraud Party [Re: Ashke]
Quiddity Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 2021
Loc: CA
I’m Anti-Interference, Anti-Fraud. It’s a one-member party to the issue which I don’t care about increasing. As the Doktor wisely wrote, “Once an issue becomes more important than the solution, don’t expect to stumble over a third side.” To this I would humbly add, “don’t expect to convince others that one even exists.”

I’m Anti-Interference, Anti-Fraud because the bulk of political controversy is about interference—not about abortion. Do we, or do we not mobilize outsiders to determine the outcome of a private situation which nature has made highly personal and individual. I recognize the dangers of this to children, as I do the dangers of bullets, hurricanes, the wax and wane of caribou populations, and sunspot cycles. If I was of right-hand-path bent, I would go through life trying to end them all in the name of injured children. The solution is more injurious than the problem itself.

For me there is no should or shouldn’t. There is what IS, what IS NOT, and what IS TO BE.

IS/IS NOT: There IS NOT, nor has there been a pregnancy issue in my life for myself (being male), nor for anyone I have had sex with. A combination of decisions, determination, some fairly effective preventive measures (birth control), as well as just a couple of responsibly minimized occasions of fortune have prevented the problem altogether.

IS TO BE: Should there be a pregnancy in my future, it will—with the precision current means permit, be a deliberate act, and my life reconfigured for success. Anyone can write this. How does anyone know what I would REALLY do? They don’t. If they want me to demonstrate this to their "righteous" satisfaction, they better bring more than signs and pictures of dead babies to the table.

THE MANNER IN WHICH A WOMAN MUST BE FORCED TO DECIDE, OR BE CRIMINALLY PUNISHED: I’ll be damned if I’m going to put myself or anyone else in a position to determine or enforce policy in this area. On the face of it, it opens the floodgates for the goodguy-badge clad “saviors” of all sorts to further their own influence at the cost of prying open a woman’s legs and insulting her life with the humiliation of having her most sensitive decisions under a public microscope. Regardless of what possible “good” it might do, only a fool could miss the damage this would do—which shows how many fools there are. Barnum was wrong. A fool is not born every minute. A fool is born every second. The issue here is not whether a woman should be able to have an abortion, but whether one person is allowed to dominate and humiliate another for their own reasons, and collect undeserved cool-points with a thoughtless audience, by emotionally torturing a helpless and suffering woman.

BUT WHAT OF THE HELPLESS CHILDREN?
Fuck this question and the bullshit artists who ask it. I’ve observed a lot of suffering children in my life. I've ended it where I could, and minimized it where possible. I've watched families torn apart through mismanagement. I've brought in CPS on my own relatives. As an MP (Military Poice), I pulled hungry Panamanian kids out of razor wire who were trying to break into our prisoner of war camp to get food. I arrested dozens of soldiers who got drunk and went batshit on their families. I've cleaned gasoline off children that were tied up by their drunken father and tied to a tree. Enough shock, however. I'm just trying to say I've been around enough to know what pain is, and I take it very seriously--especially when children are involved. The position I take is not a knee-jerk reaction to an abstract problem, but one I have considered long and hard. On balance, I've also watched many responsible parents raise their children with champion-grade parenting, and delight to see how happy they are. There can be no question that, categorically, the amount of intense and sustained pain suffered by children after their born is on an entirely different scale to the intense, yet brief and terminal pain of an abortion. I realize this is a point (oddly) often missed, and yet, the reason I say fuck these people is because they are almost without exception FRAUDS. Not once in my life have I heard any of these fraudulent imbeciles who work so hard to be perceived as saintly protectors of the innocent, suggest that as a society, we might increase funding for birth-control research to lead to fool-proof methods. Not once have I heard any of them direct their hostile righteousness to mobilizing the government to provide greater protection of those post-natal abortions who are dealing with all of the causes of human suffering which occur during childhood and adolescence. None of them are shouting to make so-called church-schools liable for damages incurred through horrendous psychological abuse involved in subjecting a children to images of the “savior” tortured and nailed to a cross, while convincing them that it is their fault and they will be set on fire and burn forever for not doing what they are told. I’ve never heard any of them campaign for investigation into church-schools regarding the scope and extent of emotional damage done in the name of “corporeal punishment.” I could go on and on, but the point is made and stands as obvious as a monument: Anti-abortion crusaders could not give a shit less about helping anyone. They see an opportunity to make themselves feel and appear “good.” Compound this with the fact that most of the “Pro-Lifers” are in favor of the death-penalty, and against nuclear-weapons control, against gun-control, etc.. When they shout “Right to Life!” they are talking about their right to decides who lives or dies (Carlin).

As Carlin said, it’s no surprise that the people screaming loudest against abortion are people you would not want to fuck in the first place.
_________________________
Obscurum per Obscurius: Ignotum per Ignotius.

Top
#145576 - 02/16/06 10:35 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Bill_M]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Quote:

My overall view on abortion? It's the most overly-tiresome political issue that has much more to do with sensationalism, self-righteousness, and second agenda-pushing, than with actual solutions, reasoning or science. Jesus freaks and left-wings alike just jump on whichever side they've been told to jump on, just like how it is with other sensationalist issues like gun control and captial punishment. You can probably go to any internet forum, ask the same question, and have a thread of flame wars that goes on for 4 weeks.




My feelings exactly!

It's one of those things the herd can't stop talking about. And both the ones in favor and the ones against it put up the most retarded arguments to suport their postition.

It's just tiresome.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


Top
#145577 - 02/16/06 11:23 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
DataLore Offline


Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3
Most people should have been aborted to save space and resources(especially other's resourses and charity).
No need to abort them however because they are doomed to fail by natural selection anyways

But with the charity of christianity they are put on sympathetic endangered species list. I am pro choice in the agreement between both parents.
Irresponsible parents should be allowed to correct a mistake of giving birth to a duplicate that will bare the same irresponsibility and stupidity as themselves.



Top
#145578 - 02/17/06 12:30 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
I'm pro-abortion, up to the 153 trimester. Maybe even further. I believe Texas does abortions up to and beyond that point. But only in certain cases.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

Top
#145579 - 02/17/06 12:42 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
I'm all for it.

But not necessarily in a pro-choice perspective.

When one looks around at people it is quite apparent that it would have been better for all concerned if they had been aborted before they were even spat out.

If one looks at the majority of parents it is also apparent that it would have been better to have aborted their offspring before the whole sorry affair began.

The responsible members of the human heirarchy need to take these affairs into hand and make the decisions that the hoi-polloi are incapable of making themselves.

It needs nipping in the bud before this morass of human waste become the burden that they do.

Sterilisation or abortion - whichever is cheaper for those who have to carry these useless bastards.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





Top
#145580 - 02/17/06 12:48 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
I just remembered, for those of you interested, there used to be a Eugenics movement.

Quote:

During the twentieth century, many countries enacted various eugenics policies and programs, including:

* Promoting differential birth rates
* Compulsory sterilization
* Marriage restrictions
* Genetic screening
* Birth control
* Immigration control
* Segregation (both racial segregation as well as segregation of the mentally ill from the "normal")
* Extermination





The largest target of extermination, was people who were mental unfit, which included stupid people and the homeless.
_________________________
Hi.

Top
#145581 - 02/17/06 04:44 PM Re: Abortion [Re: uncleherpe]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>how does one have a 'say'?

By getting the choice to still not be a parent, silly.

>>Its not fair to the guy, but biology isnt fair to the
>>woman.

Re-read the last sentence of my post that you quoted.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
#145582 - 02/17/06 04:48 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
WinterGoat Offline


Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 151
Loc: WA State
So, am I the only one here who sees this as going against The Ninth Satanic Rule of The Earth?

9. Do not harm little children.
_________________________
Every man has to seek in his own way
to make his own self more noble
and to realize his own true worth.

Albert Schweitzer


They're persecuting what they can't stand to look at in themselves--the truth.

From the song Warlock
by The Electric Hellfire Club

TESLAMAP5

Top
#145583 - 02/17/06 04:56 PM Re: Abortion [Re: WinterGoat]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:

So, am I the only one here who sees this as going against The Ninth Satanic Rule of The Earth?

9. Do not harm little children.




Already born and functioning children.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





Top
#145584 - 02/17/06 05:02 PM Re: Abortion [Re: WinterGoat]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Oh no. Not the old "Is a fetus a child" debate! That one's about as interesting and original as a Full House rerun.

I'm guessing this message board will end up being no exception to my "flame war" theory that I mentioned in my first post.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
#145585 - 02/17/06 05:05 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Bill_M]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:

That one's about as interesting and original as a Full House rerun.




But Jodie Sweetin is delicious.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





Top
#145586 - 02/17/06 05:13 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Poetaster]
DataLore Offline


Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3
Children are harmed every mensrual cycle and every drop of semen spilled. Period.
Nobody is without sin.

Top
#145587 - 02/17/06 05:19 PM Re: Abortion [Re: DataLore]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:

Children are harmed every mensrual cycle and every drop of semen spilled. Period.




What?
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





Top
#145588 - 02/17/06 05:26 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Poetaster]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>But Jodie Sweetin is delicious.

OK, you win. Full House is more interestng! Never thought I'd say that, but ya got me.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
#145589 - 02/17/06 05:29 PM Re: Abortion [Re: DataLore]
MagisterRose Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 05/21/03
Posts: 2404
Quote:

Children are harmed every mensrual cycle and every drop of semen spilled. Period.




That is a singularly idiotic statement. Period.
_________________________
Empty heads babble the most.

The good die young... because they see it's no use living if you've got to be good.
John Barrymore

HARDCOVER INFERNALIA

PAPERBACK INFERNALIA

HARDCOVER KASIDAH

PAPERBACK KASIDAH

Top
#145590 - 02/17/06 05:44 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:

Sterilisation or abortion - whichever is cheaper for those who have to carry these useless bastards.




Mullah! Doesn't the Quran advise that all children should be offered to Jonathan Swift's Halaal Irish Delicatessen?

(Fun to make, fun to eat....)
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#145591 - 02/17/06 05:57 PM An opinion.... [Re: Ashke]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that a fetus is a human being.

In that case, life would be a gift -- and pregnancy would be a service provided.

If we don't want to provide that service, we have a right to discontinue the arrangement.

We are permitted to use force to extricate ourselves, if we have to. As long as the force is no more than sufficient to do so.

If that must lead to the death of the other party -- so be it.

In short: Pregnancy is slavery, abortion is self-defense!
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#145592 - 02/17/06 08:00 PM Re: Declawing cats. [Re: ]
Asmedious Offline


Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 617
Everything should be illegal. There's too much free will still left in the world. It must be stopped, since everyone is against something. Let us please them all, and make everything illegal.

Top
#145593 - 02/17/06 11:11 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Bill_M]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

>>how does one have a 'say'?

By getting the choice to still not be a parent, silly.






the whole idea behind child support is that children do not ask to be born, but still need money to live. saying the father doesnt have to pay punishes the kid, not the mother. Not to mention Its just not practical. i think letting the father choose to pay only is a pretty fair comprimise.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

Top
#145594 - 02/18/06 12:24 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Dark_Adept Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 884
Loc: High Hades
My body! My choice!!!! Sisters Unite!!
_________________________
No Good Deed Goes Unpunished coopdevil

Top
#145595 - 02/18/06 12:57 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
If pro-lifers taught their fuckin' children how their bodies functioned instead of imposing guilt and preaching abstinence ("doing that is icky and bad!"), this wouldn't be an issue. Leave the law alone and deal with your own sexual ignorance. Otherwise the ladies will have to get their abortions from the local meth dealer. Buy 3 hits and your abortion is free!
_________________________
Hell of All Hells

Top
#145596 - 02/18/06 01:24 AM Re: Abortion [Re: reprobate]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
>>Mullah! Doesn't the Quran advise that all children should be offered to Jonathan Swift's Halaal Irish Delicatessen?<<

It is a common misconception.

I am instructed to tell you that the Irish do not please Allah. Thay are an ungodly nation, given to drinking and dancing.

Allah teaches us that dancing is an unforgivable sin. Except in cases where women dance - this is an occasion for celebration whereby all the men in the street may enjoy stoning her to death. It is pleasing to Allah if they dance whilst doing this.

This is the word of Allah - spoken through his messenger U.V.RAY.

Praise Allah!
~ Mullah U.V.RAY.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





Top
#145597 - 02/18/06 01:42 AM Re: An opinion.... [Re: reprobate]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
When did you become a radical feminist, reprobate?

Just kidding.

My answer to the abortion question is always "Yes, PLEASE."

Top
#145598 - 02/18/06 06:20 AM Altogether now! [Re: Ashke]
Wile_E_Quixote Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 2493
There are Jews in the world, there are Buddists,
There are Hindus and Mormons and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six footer,
You don't have to have a great brain,
You don't have to have any clothes on,
You're a Catholic the moment Dad came, because

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs,
On the dusty ground,
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Morman,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the pagans spill theirs,
O'er mountain, hill and plain.
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Top
#145599 - 02/18/06 06:28 AM Re: Altogether now! [Re: Wile_E_Quixote]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Mr_Dalek, I'm not sure how you do it, but for the love of Satan, please keep doing it.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





Top
#145600 - 02/18/06 08:15 AM Re: Altogether now! [Re: Poetaster]
Wile_E_Quixote Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 2493
Well, on this occassion I can only take credit for the delightful singing, not the actual song.

Top
#145601 - 02/18/06 10:45 AM Re: Altogether now! [Re: Wile_E_Quixote]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
A song you say?

I've never heard it, but now that I know it's a song, I'm going to say Stephen Lynch?
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





Top
#145602 - 02/18/06 12:26 PM Re: Abortion [Re: MagisterRose]
DataLore Offline


Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3
Magister Rose, that was the point of it.

Top
#145603 - 02/18/06 12:28 PM Re: Altogether now! [Re: Wile_E_Quixote]
DataLore Offline


Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3


I love it in Monty Python.

Top
#145604 - 02/18/06 01:24 PM Re: Altogether now! [Re: Poetaster]
Wile_E_Quixote Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 2493
Monty Python. Its in their 'Meaning Of Life' film.

Top
#145605 - 02/18/06 04:19 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Poetaster]
DataLore Offline


Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3
I'm sorry aborted was the word I was looking for, not harmed.

Oopsy!

Top
#145606 - 02/18/06 05:26 PM Re: Abortion [Re: tovasshi]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
The procedure of any surgery done legally, would never depend on whether it takes place at a hospital or a clinic, no-where in the Western World as fas as I´m concerned.

The only differences that exist in between health service establishments are governmental, and not differences in medical practices nor procedures.

Clinics may be specialized, hospitals are of general practice, yet a medical practitioner operating on either has studied same books and is bound by same laws.

What you have described doesn´t sound like a legal procedure.

Sure there are abortions done with coat-hangers at any close dark alley, and sure they in these cases will recommend you throw salt wherever, but don´t make the mistake of assuming all abortion procedures or any surgery procedures for that matter are done illegally.

Top
#145607 - 02/18/06 08:31 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
CWH Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3746

I would suggest considering adoption to a woman who has a heathly baby but does not want it. There are plenty of woman who can't have children who would take care of the baby instead of needlessly ending it's life.

I would also suggest abortion to to woman who was raped or had a baby that would be born abnormal.

It depends on the situation if I am for or against it.

Top
#145608 - 02/18/06 10:19 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Globe_Dasher Offline


Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 24
Loc: U.S.
When I think of either of these things, abortion or de-clawing, happening to me, I don’t like it. That is why I will not have any part of doing these things to another animal, depending on some circumstances.

With abortion: incest, rape, or danger to the mother or child, seem acceptable to me. I haven’t thought of any other allowances.

With de-clawing, the cat would have to be pretty dangerous for me to think of that, but if it were that dangerous, I’d take it to the humane society.
_________________________
Those who don't build must burn. It's as old as history and juvenile delinquents.
~ Fahrenheit 451 (Faber)

Top
#145609 - 02/18/06 10:19 PM The law of responsability [Re: CWH]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
Yes.

Now all is about the parent's responsability, and they should be responsible before acting....

if not, this is how some cannot assume a child, and it's like they are writting his destiny :" my son/girl, you'll be a loser, we cannot pay for anything, but welcome to the jungle".

Well in that case, I truly think that this will "kill" more the child in his life than abortion itself. You know what I mean.

I understand women now, abortion could be a shock.
_________________________
Has left the board.

Top
#145610 - 02/19/06 12:05 AM Re: Abortion [Re: tovasshi]
Noxilenticus Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 274
Loc: Hell
Human rights, oh boy what a topic. Let's see what are my thoughts on abortion... Well throughout existence if a woman just didn't want her child she'd just kill it or leave it to die. Now in our new age 21st century with all our great technology we can kill the little buggers before they even develop. So what do I suggest about abortion? I suggest that those that don’t want to have kids get abortions at their own discretion. If they don’t want to go through the pains of labor, regardless of whatever stage they are in, it should be perfectly legal for them to get one. This should not be such a big issue to people. If it is too expensive or illegal in the future, then have the child and mail it to those that feel they need to impose on your decision making abilities. Let them waste their resources taking care of your child if it is so important to them. On the flipside, if you don’t want them to brainwash your child into being a sheep, maybe you would be better off just murdering it. Before, during, or after the pregnancy is pretty much irrelevant to me. Only when a child starts to have a later stage developed neurology should this be of any issue to debate whether killing a human organism is ok or not.


The issue of removing cat claws is even far more ridiculous. This is like asking if it is inhumane to remove the foreskin of a male’s penis when they are born. The animals are already “house pets”. They are not meant for the wild any longer. You only keep them enslaved to the environment you have replaced them with. Do what you wish with your slaves. You have already changed their lives so drastically it really doesn’t matter.

Quote:

Chopping up an animal because you can't handle it, is mean.




I think it is far more mean that you keep it as a pet to play with its worthless existence, catering to your emotional needs, rather than just letting it die by natural selection. Slaves are property. I don’t think it should be illegal for one to tell someone else what they can or can’t do with their slaves. Therefore I am going to have to say let people remove their cat’s claws if they want to.
_________________________
"Satanists are epicurean, skeptical atheists who see Satan as a symbol of pride, individualism, and the quality of questioning all dogmas. The word in Hebrew means 'adversary' and so we are each 'Satans' to the doctrines that would have people use faith instead of reason to understand the universe in which we live. Our goal is to enjoy this, the only life we have and not waste it in anticipation of a mythical afterlife or an imagined apocalypse." - News 31 May, XLI A.S. in Reguards to The Satanic High Mass that happened on 6/6/6

- Noxilenticus Zodameranu

Top
#145611 - 02/19/06 04:47 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Bill_M]
Quiddity Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 2021
Loc: CA
Polarizing topics like this really seem to bring out the differences between the upstairs and downstairs users. It's heartening to see the value of commitment so dramatically vindicated.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
Obscurum per Obscurius: Ignotum per Ignotius.

Top
#145612 - 02/19/06 04:47 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
False_Messiah78 Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 1449
Loc: New York State
Well, I was hoping I still had the essay I wrote on this topic for a philosophy course I took years ago, but unfortunately it has long been deleted. In it I backed up my claims and conclusions with statistical data (such as adoption rates, etcetera).

Anyway, that essay dealt with whether abortion should be LEGAL or not - which is not what is being asked here. I would like to point out, though, that my stance on abortion is an INFORMED opinion. In fact, my feelings on the subject changed while writing that paper.

My view on abortion truly is the Satanic third side! It was formed after reviewing and considering valid arguments made both for and against abortion.

My stance on abortion is that it is a necessary evil. I believe that abortion is a horrible practice that is only an acceptable option in the following circumstances:

a) When carrying the pregnancy to-term may result in serious harm or death to the mother. Regardless of when a fertilized egg is considered a human, the rights of the living always outweigh the rights of ‘potential life’.

b) When the pregnancy is a result of rape. A child born of rape is a constant reminder of the crime forcing the victim to perpetually recall the horrible experience. There have been documented cases of rape victims treating the innocent child as the offender– seriously neglecting and/or abusing the child. *

c) When birth control was used and failed resulting in an unwanted pregnancy. Of course, this rarely should happen as all forms of birth control, if used properly, are at least 99.0% effective** .

d) When the parent(s) are not financially able or mentally fit to care for the child. There are too many low-lives sucking up taxpayer dollars already!! (Social Welfare programs are an entirely different discussion and I’m not about to get into it here…I will be writing a post about this shortly.)

Abortions should not be performed for any other reason. Abortion is not, and should not be used as, birth control. Responsibility to the responsible - if you chose to indulge in the pleasures of the flesh then you must take responsibility for the consequences of such actions.

As long as you are financially able to care for a baby then you must care for that baby - not simply 'eliminate the problem'. If that means putting YOUR life on hold for eighteen years, SO BE IT!

Of course, putting a child up for adoption IS always an option, but according to the 1995-1997 adoption statistics I studied for my original essay, only around a third of children put up for adoption are actually adopted. Most of them end up becoming wards of the state and then thrown out on the streets when they turn 18. And this creates more social problems (see point d above).

I will try to find up-to-date adoption statistics and post them.

* Of course, there are also many cases of rape victims loving and cherishing their child as if it was planned and wanted. I am by no means saying that rape-babies should be aborted – but rather abortion is a valid option in the event of a pregnancy caused by rape.

** It is important to note, ladies, that alcohol and/or tobacco use drastically reduces the effectiveness of birth control pills, patches, and injections. Also, condoms do, albeit rarely, break.
_________________________
Hail Satan!


SETI@Home Team

Top
#145613 - 02/19/06 05:16 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Barb Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 587
I feel that if you are unable to give a child a good life (excluding just being a lazy wuss), then, for the child’s sake, it should be aborted as soon as possible. But if you ARE able to take care of a child, then you should have the child and give it a good life.

I don’t think a child yet has a consciousness in the early stages of growth. I think that if a child has not been fully developed and it does not yet have a consciousness, then, after the abortion, the consciousness that WOULD HAVE developed into that child would just develop into a different child of a different parent that would actually be good for that child to have as a parent.
_________________________
"... it is much more gratifying to change your own world than the whole world." ~Magistra Ygraine

"Life is the great indulgence-death the great abstinence. Therefore, make the most of life-here and now!" ~Anton Szandor LaVey

"The true test of anyone's worth as a living creature is how much he can utilize what he has." ~Anton Szandor LaVey

"Twenty percent of your priorities will give you 80 percent of your production, IF you spend your time, energy, money, and personnel on the top 20 percent of your priorities." ~The Pareto Principle, as stated by John C. Maxwell

Top
#145614 - 02/21/06 01:02 PM Re: Abortion [Re: False_Messiah78]
PatternPop Offline


Registered: 02/21/06
Posts: 2
I don't think you should abort no matter what. You can always put the child up for adoption.
_________________________

Top
#145615 - 02/21/06 02:23 PM Re: Abortion [Re: PatternPop]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
Quote:

I don't think you should abort no matter what. You can always put the child up for adoption.




Wow, you sound like an expert.
_________________________




Top
#145616 - 02/21/06 02:40 PM Re: Never? [Re: PatternPop]
Witch_Scarlet Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 787
Loc: Texas
Ever? Really? You cannot conceive of any reason to ever abort? I can, several in fact. What if the woman’s life is in danger, and don’t give me that argument that she shouldn’t have gotten pregnant in the first place! What if she did use birth control and she still got pregnant? Health problems can come upon you when you least expect it, you cannot predict such things. What if the child will not live or be horribly deformed or mentally retarded. What if the woman is mentally unstable, has been molested or raped by, oh I don’t know… let’s say her father, what if she is only a child herself and could not prevent the rape or molestation? Should she be forced to carry and give birth to this child possibly endangering her health, both mental and physical?

Can you really not conceive of a reason to abort at all?

Top
#145617 - 02/21/06 03:30 PM Re: Abortion [Re: PatternPop]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:

I don't think you should abort no matter what. You can always put the child up for adoption.




A mealy-mouthed, bleeding-heart sentiment if ever I've seen one.

It doesn't appear from your one sentence response that you've truly considered anything; with the exception of your knee-jerk reaction.

Looks can be deceiving, but in this case I doubt it.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





Top
#145618 - 02/21/06 03:48 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Sentinel Offline


Registered: 01/05/06
Posts: 14
Loc: Ohio
I feel that it is up to the mother entirly, being that fact that only experianced mothers or pregnant "soon to bees" have the right to say weather or not it is right. We as men will never be able to experiance it so you have the catholic men saying that its wrong and the liberals saying its ok. Personaly I think we as men dont really have a say seeing as how we only plant the seed and then we are done. So basicaly its up to you weather or not you want to go to the wire hanger factory or not, either way its none of my business what you do.

Top
#145619 - 02/21/06 04:23 PM Re: Abortion [Re: PatternPop]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

I don't think you should abort no matter what. You can always put the child up for adoption.





Hardly any kids would be adopted if NO ONE had an abortion. there would be waaaay, waaaay too many kids for anyone to take care of. Plus, pregnancy changes the body in a really drastic way, its not as simple as 'just give it up for adoption'.

I dont understand how you can post on a satanism message board and fail to realize that most people do not have genes that are worth passing on, and shouldnt be encouraged to breed. Much less encouraged to breed and then let someone else raise the children for them. ugh.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

Top
#145620 - 02/21/06 04:24 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Satanya]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

Well, I have never heard of abortions being done without general anesthesia and I have never heard of any salt-solution -- not even in Brazil and I´m actually getting my degree next year in surgery procedures, which does not include any major in body-piercing procedures, I don´t believe body-piercing could even be qualified as a medical procedure or surgery.




There are most definitely times when abortions are done without general anesthesia. If it is a first trimester, vacuum abortion, they generally use a caudal block which numbs you from the waist down. You are still well aware of what is going on around you, unfortunately.

I would agree, body piercing is not usually considered a surgical procedure.




Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


Top
#145621 - 02/21/06 04:33 PM Re: Abortion [Re: False_Messiah78]
DarkWater Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 784
Loc: SinCity
Quote:

My view on abortion truly is the Satanic third side!



I don't think so.


You conclude that:

Quote:

Abortion is not, and should not be used as, birth control.



Yet, you do not offer an argument for this conclusion. Instead, you make moral law out of what is merely a personal, arbitrary standard. As you state:

Quote:

Responsibility to the responsible - if you chose to indulge in the pleasures of the flesh then you must take responsibility for the consequences of such actions.



For the sake of argument, I'll grant that one must be responsible for the consequences of one's sexual indulgences. But why would opting for an abortion not be a responsible action? Simply because it grates your sensibilities is no more sufficient reason than the fact that it suits mine just fine. You need to offer an argument for your conclusion, not personal dogma.


You go on to say:

Quote:

As long as you are financially able to care for a baby then you must care for that baby - not simply 'eliminate the problem'.



Why? Because you say so? I presume you will reply that one must care for the baby because it is the only responsible action. But, as already noted, you have given me no reason to believe this.


Quote:

If that means putting YOUR life on hold for eighteen years, SO BE IT!



This statement surprises me, particularly coming from a Satanist. I like you, False Messiah, so please don't take my criticism as a personal attack, but your statements clearly run against the grain of some Satanic fundamentals. For instance, why would you let an eliminateable factor dictate how you live your life, particularly if that factor takes away from your happiness? I suspect you will say that an unborn child is not an "eliminateable factor," and so my question is moot. But if this is true, I need an argument to support that conclusion. Personal sentiment is not reason enough.


Finally, I found this confusing:

Quote:

[Abortion is acceptable:]
c) When birth control was used and failed resulting in an unwanted pregnancy.



In other words, if the on-the-spot method of birth control fails, abortion can be used as a backup method. However, to repeat a quote, you also claim:

Quote:

Abortion is not, and should not be used as, birth control.



Let's see if I understand...

If the condom breaks, abortion is fine.
If you did not use a condom, abortion is wrong.

If she faithfully takes the pill but still becomes pregnant, abortion is fine.
If she missed a pill and becomes pregnant, abortion is wrong.

Again, why?


Once more, I am not trying to be mean or poke fun. The sound of my voice sometimes resembles that of a braying jackass, but in speaking with you I have tried to play the role of philosopher. You stated that your opinion came from research for a philosophy paper. Had you been in my class and submitted these ideas to me, I would have given you these same comments. I likely would also have given you a high grade for working through the issue so systematically, even if your conclusions lack the support of solid argument.


Class dismissed.


DarkWater


p.s. I don't have my Satanic Bible handy, so I must paraphrase Satan's words:

He who says to me "Thou Shalt" shall be my mortal foe!

Opinion is one thing. Moral dogma pawned off as law is quite another.

Top
#145622 - 02/21/06 04:35 PM Re: Abortion [Re: False_Messiah78]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:



** It is important to note, ladies, that alcohol and/or tobacco use drastically reduces the effectiveness of birth control pills, patches, and injections. Also, condoms do, albeit rarely, break.




Ive read every single information packet thats come with my birth control pills and it said nothing of the sort. Ive read the entire PDR guide to womens health and read nothing of the sort. Smoking can increase your risk of death (blood clotting) on hormonal birth control, but doesnt do anything to the effectiveness of the actual hormones and drugs, neither does alcohol. The main cause of birth control failing is using it incorrectly. and when condoms break emergency contraceptives are available, and can be used one or two days after unprotected sex (even though the sooner its taken, the better). I smoke, and if somehow my birth control pills were less effective because of that I would get an iud. (Im not afraid of blood clots because I have a condition where my blood does not clot normally)...


I think a huge reason why teen pregnancy is a problem in america is because our sex education is so shitty. I went and read about birth control and abortion on my own before I ever had sex, but its not realistic to expect the majority of kids to do that.



edit: DARKWATER- what an excellent reply! I read an interesting article once called 'the only moral abortion is MY abortion" that hit on many of the points you made. I never understood why abortion is considered irresponsible- so many people I knew in high school used drugs/alcohol before they knew they were pregnant and decided to get abortions, and that it was very much for the best. And the main problem I have with the post you quoted is that the person is saying that a child should be a punishment for having sex- no child should be used as a punishment for anything. another annoying thing to hear is that its ok to get x amount of abortions, but not any more than that- sort of falls in line with the idea that abortion shouldnt be used as birth control... well, it controls birth, so I would say its birth control no matter how much you do it.


Edited by uncleherpe (02/21/06 04:42 PM)
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

Top
#145623 - 02/21/06 05:25 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
VKat Offline


Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 157
Loc: Northern California
I have wanted to write a rant on this for awhile.

To start, where does life begin? Some believe that using any means of birth control is killing a life, including condoms, birth control pills. Most do not realize that fertilization of an egg happens with birth control pills. The egg does not stick to the walls of the uterus and that’s what prevents pregnancy, in other words, mini abortion. How can you say that removing a fetus that has yet to even develop a brain as being worse then disconnecting someone that is brain dead? Of course there are a people against disconnecting someone that is brain dead. Would have to review facts again on when development of a fetus takes place. I’ve notice that some web pages skew the facts on how far along a fetus is. They use third term pictures as first term examples. Second term and third term abortions are a bit out there for me. I think there is defiantly a limit on when a fetus is considered alive or just an extension of that person.

I knew a girl in high school who got pregnant young. Friend of a friend, she used, got worse as she got older. Her daughter bounced from party to party getting dragged along with her. Watched her mother do drugs and have sex. It took four years for her daughter to get taken away from her. The only reason why she finally got taken away was because the parents of the father wanted to take care of her. Other wise she would have remained with her mother. She got pregnant again, after having told my friend that shooting up was great birth control. The baby was born addicted, why no one has made laws to lock up these mothers during their pregnancy I don’t know. The baby was tested at birth, having it in his system all rights from the mother where taken away, even visitation. How come most people focus on the big picture, but forget about the little details. What about laws that protect the fetus during the pregnancy. I have an adopted cousin that was born with fetal alcohol syndrome, can we say tie the tubes of the mother? She just committed a crime, as far as I’m concerned, and there is proof. Some people should just not have kids, period. Some kids would be better off dead then have someone as a mother that doesn’t want to be.

It kills me how many kids are in the welfare system, which no one cares about. So much discussion’s about abortion and no discussions about the lost kids. All the people who think abortion is wrong should go out and adopt a child. Give action to their words, all talk and no walk. It makes me laugh that some people think that their genetics are necessarily going to create anything more then the next persons. There is a lot more too it then just genetics, not to mention it’s combined with another persons. Especially after I read how much most people dislike their parents, but think their genetics are superior? Okay, so take two dumb ass’s and breed those together, chances are you will get another dumb ass. There is still a chance that you will end up with an intelligent person. Same goes, two intelligent people can create a dumb ass. To put it simply.

Also, what people do not understand is that if you took the right away for a woman to have an abortion, she will do it herself. I believe that this is the biggest topic that keeps the current laws available. Women will kill themselves not to have children, intentionally or while giving themselves abortions. Then clinics will go underground, this is not something that you can stop people from doing, illegal or not. Every time a law is made to protect someone, another’s rights are taken away. That is just the way it is, can not make everyone happy.

Now personally, I take birth control. I have two kids, which I took their dad into consideration when I decided to keep them. Though I also think it’s good for kids to have siblings. I’m not going to have another kid, pre negotiated with anyone that can get me pregnant, that I would have sex with. If I get pregnant some how I am not having another one. I could not emotionally handle having another kid right now. I do not think it is fair to split the attention I give my kids into thirds. Every time you have a kid it takes away from the kids that are already there. Financially that would put me into the category of barely getting by without help. Not to mention the damage it does to your body. Everyone acts like it’s a walk in the park, for some maybe, but pop out a couple and see how your body deals with it. I have a couple of complications that I can live with for awhile but will eventually have to have surgery to fix. Any kind of back leg, hip, bone problem that you have will probably advance the problem by years. It’s a matter of choice, if you want to do damage on yourself fine. However it’s illegal for anyone to cut your hair without your permission. I may in the future, when my kids are older, choose to adopt. Depending on if I decide I really enjoy being a mother that much. I will adopt an older kid, which without me probably won’t have a chance of finding a home. Some of the people against abortion can’t have kids and want to adopt babies but won’t adopt children. It’s just hypocritical to be against abortion and allow more lives to be created without stepping forward and taking care of even one of those lives already here.

I was watching the Olympics. They did a story about a skier who won gold. His parents where on vacation found him. The parent had abandoned the baby in South Africa (not sure if that’s the right location). The country allowed them to adopt him. Someone’s trash is someone’s treasure.

Top
#145624 - 02/21/06 06:12 PM Re: Abortion [Re: PatternPop]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Quote:

I don't think you should abort no matter what. You can always put the child up for adoption.




Another troll!

And people keep feeding them!

This person has created an account for the sole purpose of posting the above commentary. No introductions, no other messages... Of course, if you leave a piece of cake uncovered, flies will start circling!

I really hate how this topic keeps popping up in this board every few months and every time it generates a long string of responses. While other posts with topics related to Satanism get poor attention and activity.

Can anybody just ABORT this thread?
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


Top
#145625 - 02/22/06 03:44 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
^^^its really too bad that youve been forced to click on the thread and read the replies.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

Top
#145626 - 02/22/06 06:56 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

But yes... I am also curious about people's opinions on declawing cats. Because I've heard some people find it cruel.




Not sure what one has to do with the other, but I prefer not to get into the "this is my stand on abortion" debate.

I will, however, comment on the declawing of a cat since the government hasn't gotten their mitts on that one yet! They have out now a humane solution to the human vs. catclaw problem (other than the obvious one of letting your cat go outside to scratch on the natural substances it was made to scratch on.) I have not tried them myself, preferring to let my cats be cats, but they are little caps that fit over of cat's claws. This supposedly keeps them from destroying your precious furniture. Theoretically they should work. My question is how does one get the cat to cooperate to apply them to the claws, and do they stay on well? If interested check it out here.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


Top
#145627 - 02/22/06 01:14 PM Re: Abortion [Re: DarkWater]
False_Messiah78 Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 1449
Loc: New York State
No offence taken, Dark Water. I read your post they way you intended it - as constructive criticism of my arguement.

You raise some valid points - I should have proofread and clarified my post a bit better.

When I wrote it I was trying to recall an essay that I had written 5 years ago which did back up the statements I made.

I realized when I was writing the post that I am still very much conflicted on this issue - I was pretty much putting down my thoughts on the matter. Anyone here is free to disagree with them.

One thing I want to clarify was my position on abortion as birth control. What I meant by this statement was that, in my opinion, I one wishes not to get pregnant then they should use preventative birth control measures first and in the unlikely event that they fail abortion remains an option.

I am opposed to the mentality of - Screw the condom (pill, patch, etc.), if I get pregnant I can have an abortion.

Hope that cleared that matter up.


Also, when I say that my view is the Third Side view what I mean is I don’t have an “Abortion is bad” or “abortion is good” attitude. My feeling on whether it is “good” or “bad” is decided on a case-by-case basis.

I’m sure if I ever got a girl pregnant I may throw my whole philosophy on it out the window! (I don’t ever want to have children – I detest the little buggers).
_________________________
Hail Satan!


SETI@Home Team

Top
#145628 - 02/22/06 01:17 PM Re: Abortion [Re: uncleherpe]
False_Messiah78 Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 1449
Loc: New York State
Well, that is the information that was given to me in a 400 level college course: Human Sexuality.

Apparently that information was not accurate. I am inclined to trust the PDR and pill manufacturers than I will a college instructor.
_________________________
Hail Satan!


SETI@Home Team

Top
#145629 - 02/22/06 07:59 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
LKRice Offline

CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 6359
I'm curious as to when you plan on finally posting your required introduction.
_________________________
Director
Committee for the
Promotion of Vice and
Prevention of Virtue

Top
#145630 - 02/23/06 02:55 PM Re: Abortion [Re: uncleherpe]
VKat Offline


Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 157
Loc: Northern California
Quote:

Ive read every single information packet thats come with my birth control pills and it said nothing of the sort.




Like sex education and schools, do not expect that every packet of birth control pills is going to have all side affects listed. Did you know that certain kinds of birth control pills can cause traumatic hair loss in women? Also when people took “fin fin” for weight loss, nothing said it would give them heart attacks. Have to remember that the drug companies do not really want you to know about potential side affects.

Hair loss and birth control;
http://webcenter.health.webmd.netscape.com/content/article/110/109748

Since approval by the FDA in 1960, oral contraception (the Pill) has become one of the most popular forms of birth control used today. Millions of women are prescribed the Pill each year in this country, but very few are aware that oral contraceptives are a common trigger of hair loss.

I found this out after asking a twenty six year old girl on how it was that she was loosing her hair. Finding out that it was directly related to her IUD. The IUD she was using is called Mirena. The UID releases levonorgestrel into the intrauterine system. Notice the side affects mention nothing of hair loss.

http://www.mirena-us.com/faq.html#sideeffects

The scary thing to me is not only the hair loss. I used a birth control pill called seasonale that also uses levonorgestrel.
http://www.seasonale.com/LearnAboutSeasonale/Default.aspx#AL1
I’ve used seven or more different types of birth control. I stopped using this one because I noticed it was darkening and cracking my usual long nails. After I stopped using seasonale you could see the visible line on my nails. I have to wonder what other kind of side affects it was having on me, since your hair and nails are directly related to your health.

Also the emfamous Norplant uses leyonorgestrel. This website claims that norplant is no longer sold, but I think it is still available. http://www.adrugrecall.com/norplant/norplant.html
However I’ve seen lost of complaints by people who had norplant, including problems that never went away even after the implant was removed. I remember seeing shows, and also doing a little google search leads to lots of posts by women with problems they believe came from having norplant.
“Wyeth also made another major announcement at this time: they were voluntarily recalling Norplant permanently. While the company claimed the recall was due to limitations in component supplies, there were also Norplant side effect concerns at that time. Norplant could cause irregular and excessive bleeding, infection at the insertion site, capsule expulsion, migraine, and breast abnormalities. Other Norplant side effects include: nausea, dizziness, breast soreness, acne, weight gain, depression, skin discoloration, ovarian cysts, hair loss, and removal difficulties.”

“Breast abnormalities”, yeah like cancer. Of course from what I understand you can get cancer from just about anything.
Quote:

so many people I knew in high school used drugs/alcohol before they knew they were pregnant and decided to get abortions, and that it was very much for the best.



Also, I have read. Which I would have to go looking for written information that drug and alcohol use during the first trimesters doesn’t cause problems with the baby. I wouldn’t suggest it, but that wouldn’t be a good reason to have an abortion. Many women drink and find out that they are pregnant, depends on what stage in pregnancy they are in.

P.S. In my opinion kids are only a punishment if you have to many of them, or if your a moron. Not saying that choosing not to have kids makes you a moron. Saying that once you have them if you don't learn something from them then you are a moron.

Top
#145631 - 02/23/06 07:05 PM Re: Abortion [Re: VKat]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
I read the info packets AND the entire pdr womens health guide, which has a perscription drug section. I know all the weird freak side effects (did you know that the shot can cause nipple bleeding...woah)

The people who did drugs and alcohol... well, they were screwed up and thats more of a reason to stop than anything else. most of them were meth addicts, and if we all had a nickel for each time an addict chose drugs over themselves or loved ones... the midwest ROCKS.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

Top
#145632 - 02/24/06 05:11 AM Re: Declawing cats. [Re: Tyrson]
verdelet Offline


Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 12
Loc: Sunny England(oh, the sarcasm)
I am in two minds about abortion

I agree with it when the woman has a heart problem or such like so that, upon having the baby, she will die or be severely disabled (self-preservation) and i agree with abortion if the mother knows the baby will die either upon birth or after its few short years

I dont agree with it if the mother simply wants to get rid of it for no good reason>

but then again, I dont know.

Its the mothers body and the mothers baby and its her choice. I cannot truly decipher what I feel on abortion as I am yet to have a child and experience that emotional attatchment.


On the declawing of cats.
It sounds cruel and it is auite silly. Cats were born with claws because they NEED them.
to climb, to catch food, to survive basically.
It sounds to me like a fashion statement, pretty much the smae as the docking of a dobermans tail.
this was for fashion and I agree with it because the dog is in no pain if performed correctly.
their (i cannot spell it) dew-claw-the claw about three centimetres above the paw is removed becasue if it comes off then it can cause pain
_________________________
"NEVER FORGET THAT YOU ARE A WOMAN, AND THE GREATEST POWERS YOU CAN EMPLOY AS A WITCH ARE TOTALLY DEPENDENT UPON YOUR OWN SELF-REALIZATION THAT IN BEING A WOMAN YOU ARE DIFFERENT FROM A MAN AND THAT VERY DIFFERENCE MUST BE EXPLOITED!"

Top
#145633 - 02/24/06 09:55 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
crackergirl Offline


Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 323
Loc: Kansas
Quote:

I'm curious as to people's opinions on abortion, because I've heard so many different opinions on it, and a lot of people with the same backround have different opinions on it.



If something isn't wanted, you get rid of it. If it's bound to cause more harm to yourself than good, cast it away. That's what I'd do anyway.

Quote:


But yes... I am also curious about people's opinions on declawing cats. Because I've heard some people find it cruel.



Ever had an itch you couldn't scratch? Ever had an itch you couldn't scratch because someone pulled out your fingernails? Cats can be trained just as well as dogs. Declawed cats are the way they are because their owners were too lazy to teach them to stay the hell away from the leather sofa.

Top
#145634 - 02/24/06 10:08 AM Re: Declawing cats. [Re: ]
LOTH Offline


Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 30
Loc: Indiana
Quote:

Those who feel that it is acceptable to chop parts off of an animal to make them "look nice" or to "save the furniture" should not be owning said animal.

"Cropping" as well as de-clawing, should be illegal.

Other dogs are slow to befriend my boxer, not because he has social issues, but.... he has no tail.
Most of the dogs I have lived with in one capacity or another have been cropped, and the reaction is the same.

I refer to it as "Cosmetic Cruelty".




People can say I want to get this branded or pierced a less vocal animal cannot. Cruelty indeed just for looks even. Though I am sure one could say that a cut penis is the same thing, or anything done to a child. And as far as abortion I feel it is choice to a extent... If you are unfit to raise a child, raped, or child is not healthy enough to live long than abortion is ok... But it should still be used with caution.
_________________________
VI VERI VENIVERSUM VIVUS VICI

Top
#145635 - 02/24/06 11:04 AM Re: Declawing cats. [Re: LOTH]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
well, for the most part I think pet owners should get used to the idea of some property damage when they decide to own an animal. I wont say that declawing should never ever be done because some animals do have serious behavior problems outside of the norm, and cats arent easily trainable. Sometimes it comes down to either getting rid of the cat or declawing it when the damage is severe, and declawing is a better option imo in that situation.
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

Top
#145636 - 02/28/06 04:28 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Bill_M]
WinterGoat Offline


Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 151
Loc: WA State
Quote:

Oh no. Not the old "Is a fetus a child" debate! That one's about as interesting and original as a Full House rerun.




Hell, I just figured while we were on the subject, we might as well see all points of it addressed (redressed?). And I reserve the right unto myself to be facetious.
_________________________
Every man has to seek in his own way
to make his own self more noble
and to realize his own true worth.

Albert Schweitzer


They're persecuting what they can't stand to look at in themselves--the truth.

From the song Warlock
by The Electric Hellfire Club

TESLAMAP5

Top
#145637 - 08/21/06 02:32 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Ashke]
Xsel Offline


Registered: 08/20/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Finland
Well this is just my view and my interpertation on the subject.

Personally i believe abortion is wrong. It hurts a being in its purest form. A child or in this case a fetus is just following its most basic instincs of growing up and when it is ready, it will be born.

Declawing cats and harming other animals to gain a human satisfaction is wrong aswell since, it will just disable it from achieving its basic nature.

well again its just my view.
_________________________
Pain is the reason you know you are alive.

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >


Forum Stats
12199 Members
73 Forums
43982 Topics
406058 Posts

Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
Advertisements