In the many years I've read Letters to the Devil, I've observed countless threads of the "what if" variety. To be sure, this is a common argument in person-to-person discussions as well, but I think it has severe flaws.

A "what if" presents a scenario of pure fantasy in a lame attempt to get at some deeper "truth." Such as:

"What if Nazis kidnapped your wife, kids and goldfish and said you had to kill a politician to get them back, would you do it?"

"What if your life depended on being a moron, would you give yourself brain damage?"

"What if someone offered you a billion dollars if you would sacrifice ten years of your life?"

We ought to be asking, "What if you had to think of something realistic in order to make a point, could you do it?"

The problem with this kind of argument is that it often masks an agenda; that is, the person inquiring believes he knows the common answer among his audience and wishes to prove it so. Often the person will want to suggest that the audience would be willing to commit crimes or do otherwise unacceptable things if they had "no choice." This is beneath contempt, to pose moronic fantasy questions in order to bait those you ask.

The other possibility is that the person has the debating skills of a child and can only relate his points through impossible scenarios, not real world points. What someone speculates they might do in movieland has no bearing on reality or real ethics.

If you want to prove something, the only way to do it is by remaining firmly grounded in reality. Philosophical masturbation with false scenarios only leads to false conclusions. This sort of debate falls firmly into the category of "spiritual pipedreams."

That is all.

I really think this post is important. thank you.

Quote:

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Philosophical masturbation with false scenarios only leads to false conclusions. This sort of debate falls firmly into the category of "spiritual pipedreams."

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Yes, exactly. This is when the sheeps play their favourite little games, so proud and thinking this belongs to the "question everything".

Once they know, they go on to question. What a bunch of ......

Within the context of a completely irrational and fantasy based answer, yes to all four questions.

Especially for the gold fish. I'd kill millions. I just don't see life going as smoothly if skipper were not there any more.

Realistically, yes to the last.

Excellent point/post.

Congratulations, LeviathanXIII. This should be in the must-read top items.
Hail Satan!
Magda

Well said LeviathanXIII!

I think as Satanists we should be very aware that this type of enquiry is often followed, as you have said, by those with an agenda. I think it is very important not to get drawn into hypothetical situations where one could be perceived as condoning illegal activities, as this is, in my experience often what the questioner is looking for!

I'm sure someone posted something similar to this awhile back (it may have even been yourself), but think it worth restating in my own words as there are a lot of new people around this forum recently!

HAIL SATAN!!

Magister Nemo wrote about it, I think, and it was well stated then. Some people I guess can't help but attempt to go about breaking forum rules by beating-around-the-bush, so to speak; and now it needs to be a specific reenstatement of the forum rules. Kind of sad really.

I thought "No talk of violence" was pretty clear. Even hypo-(pa)thetically.

It is correct, Magister Nemo has warned against asking others if they would hypothetically commit crimes; however, I wish to add that besides being a form of baiting it is also the worst kind of debate technique, even when it does not ask if you would commit criminal acts.

What if we lived in a world where people didn't ask "What if" questions, how many glasses of champagne would you drink?

Thank you for that quick and well stated point.

Great post LeviathanXIII. Now the only question is to ask "What if the morons actually got it?"

Philosophical masturbation with false scenarios only leads to false conclusions. This sort of debate falls firmly into the category of "spiritual pipedreams."
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Yes, exactly. This is when the sheeps play their favourite little games, so proud and thinking this belongs to the "question everything".

Which is to say, the hypothetical is not the real, and should never be mistaken as such--especially if the hypothetical situation is so bizarre or fantastical that you'll most likely never have to encounter anything like it.

Fantasy and philosophy are well and good, provided one recognizes their use (say, if you're a novelist, or a professional philosopher)--and conversely, recognizes where they are *not* useful on a practical level.

I also concur with Leviathan's point that there is almost always an agenda beneath the question that the questioner may be trying to hide, and might as well be honest about (especially since, 9 times out of 10, it's pretty transparent anyway.)

I agree entirely. I would also add that it is tempting to get caught up in trying to reason through what is rediculous on the face of it. I think this is what makes this so commonplace--the force behind the method is to get us to waste our time, rather than a reasoned exposition of the questioner's own views. Are you familiar with "The Phantom Tollbooth" by Norton Juster? It was a real favorite of mine as a child, and I consider it to be easily one of the wisest and most uncomplicated elaboration of personal development ever. The type of tactic under discussion here, to me, smacks of the names of the demons in The Mountains of Ignorance. The Senses Taker and Terrible Trivium spring unbidden to mind--although I don't think it's an exact analogy. We may have to invent one here. On balance and comparison, there is definitely room for one.

Well, the "What if" question is supposed to be one of fantasy, or something highly unlikely. I thought I'd try my hand at it

Oh! I haven't read that book in years! I've got to do it again sometime, because I remember how great it was. Thanks for reminding me of it, Quiddian.

But yes, The Phantom Tollbooth did do a particularly good job of showing how absurd, bureaucratic, bogged down, and/or illogical people and systems get.

I just found out that Amazon sells this book for seven bucks, so I thought, "What the hell." I've sent a gift certificate to your email listed on your profile for a copy of the book, including shipping. I've never used this service before, so I'm not sure what to expect. I think it will simply send you an email address with a claim code, and then you tell Amazon where to send it. Let me know if this works.


Hail Satan!