#148168 - 02/28/06 11:51 AM
Unacceptable Parental Influences?
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 78
Loc: Preston, UK
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How much of a right do parents have to teach their children?
It's perfectly acceptable and considered a given that parents should pass on basic life lessons to their progeny, but should there be boundaries set on what they're allowed to teach?
For example, many adults pass on irrational fears, quirks, right hand religions, etc (Although anyone who believes a RHP religion solely because they're taught it by their parents clearly aren't worth the time of day). Racism owes it's continued existance to it's being handed down like an old tatty item of apparel, and without wanting to get into a rant about that at the moment, I think most of us can agree that we'd be better of without that trashy philosophy.
I realise that this is all academic, since we can't stop people from influencing the information sponges that live with, and rely largely upon them, but I was just curious what everyone elses thoughts were on this matter.
Thank you, and Hail Satan!
Edited by tathariant (02/28/06 11:53 AM)
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Hail Satan!
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#148169 - 02/28/06 12:01 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Tathariant]
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CoS Member
Registered: 02/17/06
Posts: 17
Loc: NW Florida
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I believe that it should be a parent’s duty to raise well informed children by trying to teach their children to see all aspects of every issue, and letting them choose for themselves. This is what my wife and I are doing with our 2 boys and it seems to be working in the kids favor. I can honestly say that my 4 year old has a better grasp on philosophy & religion than most adults I know.
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All men die, but how few truly live.
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#148171 - 02/28/06 01:00 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Bruja]
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CoS Warlock
Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
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Quote:
Unfortunately, we can't control who is allowed to reproduce, and that, in my opinion, would solve everything.
Well, of course, they could always win themselves Darwin Awards 
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#148172 - 02/28/06 01:21 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Tathariant]
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Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 342
Loc: 1/4 mile and 9 seconds away!
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Parents can teach their kids no more than they know themselves. This is partly what keeps the herd, well, herdlike.
If a child is bright enough to see beyond their parents world view, they will, regardless of what is 'taught' to them.
An example:
I know a family, I've known them most of my life. Mum, Dad, oldest daughter, middle son and youngest son.
The Mum and Dad have achieved very little in their lives. He's been working the same menial job since he left school, she works part time cleaning other peoples houses.
They ate the same meal on the same day every day of the week. They went to the same pub on Friday night, drank the same drinks, spoke to the same people about the same things. Apart from a two week package holiday in the summer (to the same place,) their entire life could be lived in a single week!
The daughter, who I went to school with, and we were close friends as kids, after her 'teenage rebellion,' married and settled down into an almost identical life style. The middle son, tried to do the same, but married a girl slightly brighter than his self, and she wouldn't put up with it, and threw him out. He remarried a slightly dumber girl, and now lives pretty much the same exsistence as his parents.
The youngest son on the other hand, went to university, travelled the world, had adventures and is now a successfull sculptor living in the south of France with a beautiful wife and two beautiful kids. He's living a life so far removed, in a world so far removed from his parents, that they just can't understand why he's doing it, and can't understand why he isn't more like his siblings!
What ever we teach our kids, those with the brains and the drive to forge their own path, be it right or left handed, will.
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#148175 - 02/28/06 02:20 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Tathariant]
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Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
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I think saying you are racist or whatever else because thats how you are raised is a pretty pathetic excuse. People who subscribe to whatever their parents tell them would just listen to some other dumbass if it wasnt their parents, so I dont really think its a big deal if parents pass on stupid ideas to their children.
we are all effected by the way we were raised to some degree, the choice lies in choosing to continue believing what you were taught or make your own path. I know a lot of the people here at LTTD were raised catholic, southern baptist, or in other extreme belief systems and turned out quite a bit different than their families. Others can do it too, they just choose not to. Its easier to just be what others expect you to be.
edit- oh yeah, and I dont think racism exsists only because people learned it from their parents. thats bullshit. I know plenty of racist people who didnt learn it from their parents. they usually lived in a rather ethnic place and really got sick of people who are racial stereotypes.
Edited by uncleherpe (02/28/06 02:48 PM)
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One stupid post too many.
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#148176 - 02/28/06 02:33 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Tathariant]
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Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3
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Parents have every right to teach their children what they deem fit, as long as it doesn't violate the child's legal rights or the law for that matter. There is nothing to be concerned with. If the child is destined for excellence they will learn from their parent's mistakes and properly distinguished good examples. Why do you concern yourself with the way other's raise their children? If you are worried that irresponsible parenting through illogical teachings could corrupt the development of a child with outstanding potential , remember the saying: "Born not made" and let loose a sigh of relief.  Quote:
Racism owes it's continued existence to it's being handed down like an old tatty item of apparel, and without wanting to get into a rant about that at the moment, I think most of us can agree that we'd be better of without that trashy philosophy.
I disagree. Rivalry and separatism among "species" is a natural necessity for optimal individual development through the act of being competitive. We(human beings) would be worse off without this "philosophy". (As we presently are) There would not be "racism" if Civilizations "B","C","D","E","F", and "G" were never relocated and mixed with Civilization "A" (nor any other combination of the sort). Many idiotically believe that multiculturalism, “tolerance”, or at worse racial unification being the answer to solve "racism".
Christianity is the front of such bullshit, in its agenda disguised as "morality" to prolong the survival of the weak. They blindly and ignorantly overlook(as intended and expected) animal adaptation to environment and climate which will constantly create racial distinction based on geographical location. "Racism" owes its continued existence to being handed down by nature and evolution. Territorialism and engagement will remain forever constant by natural law. The only way to prolong the beginning to any conflict is isolation and the strengthening of the isolating borders.
Quote:
and without wanting to get into a rant about that at the moment
Then it is here for the moment that you were waiting for. 
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#148177 - 02/28/06 06:38 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Tathariant]
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CoS Member
Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2331
Loc: East Coast, USA.
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This is an issue that serves no purpose.
Nature is what it is.
Some will rise above their backgrounds.
Others will not.
It's all about stratification and survival of the fittest.
Social Darwinism will make the final determination.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."
- Sam Harris
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#148178 - 02/28/06 07:33 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Tathariant]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12944
Loc: The Solid State
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Ideally, a parent should raise a child to become a rational, independent, well-adjusted, happy, responsible, goal-oriented adult. A child is not here to solely fulfill all of the parents' particular expectations, nor to live out vicariously the parents' dreams, nor become a clone of the parents.
A child should not be treated nor indoctrinated in ways that will serve to noticeably stunt his or her ability to reason, explore, feel, be independent, self-actualize, make and break relationships, function in society, adapt to the world, and/or be genuinely productive.
Children can and should be taught things--principles, rules, ideals-- but these things should allow them to become more adept and skilled at dealing with life, not less so.
Sadly, the reality doesn't always match the ideal, but there you go.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."
"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!
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#148179 - 03/01/06 12:08 AM
My Future Children
[Re: Tathariant]
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CoS Member
Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 2021
Loc: CA
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First off, I'd like to vent--if not rant. Most of the so called "parenting" I have seen in my life is fucking horrifying, and I share your contempt for the usual indoctrination tactics mindlessly practiced on children. Certainly, parents of the RHP'S will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.
I have a standing policy When it comes to other people's children. Barring a child asking for help, being credibly informed of--or directly witnessing physical abuse, I simply ignore them. It's not worth getting involved and trying to help. There's nothing new going on. Kids have kids, then expect their kids to finish raising them. Kids grow up crying and perplexed. The world keeps on spinnin'. Control and responsibility go hand in hand. Assuming responsibility when one has no control is an act of a masochist. I don't care about being the goodguy here. I'll settle for being good enough not to lie about it. Not only do I not care about playing "savior," there are any number of things that can backfire, and leave one looking or feeling like an ass. My own personal demand for being kind to children is satisfied by not deceiving them about my being a savior, or about the nature of belief (something nearly universal these days). That may be the greatest kindness the child ever receives, and this I can do without a word.
I've never had children, but I have been one. My experience has been that most parent's see this responsibility as a matter of transferring ideas. As a Satanist, if I have a child, my priority will be to teach him/her reason, method, and audit, and let his/her deductive faculties do the adding up.
As Thoreau wisely put it, "If I have any experience I think valuable, I am sure to reflect that this my mentors said nothing about."
My priority is to furnish my future child with the benefits of a clear head, the finest tools, and an indomimable spirit--rendered by plenty of laughter, insatiable curiosity and joy of discovery. This requires resources, availability, and the maturity and examples that only experience can provide. To this end, I have waited until I'm old enough, and have arranged a future without the distraction of the 9-5, the resources to finance his/her tools, and am living a full and rich life of my own (added protection against vicariousness). Without conceit, I can say that when I become a father, I will have the resources, the availability, and the situation to raise a child well. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, they can content themselves with the fact that there are still a few in the world who prefer to approach a challenge intent on setting new standards, rather than putting a good face on a bad accident. For those, like me, who survive and succeed by paying strict attention--rather than being done right by by their own parents, the example is enough. In the name of Satan, and my future children's happiness, may my vanity be justified.
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Obscurum per Obscurius: Ignotum per Ignotius.
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#148180 - 03/01/06 12:20 AM
Re: My Future Children
[Re: Quiddity]
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Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
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you ignore it when you directly witness abuse?? huh? I Are you using the term abuse loosely or literally?
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One stupid post too many.
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#148181 - 03/01/06 12:21 AM
Re: My Future Children
[Re: Quiddity]
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 78
Loc: Preston, UK
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Quote:
First off, I'd like to vent--if not rant. Most of the so called "parenting" I have seen in my life is fucking horrifying, and I share your contempt for the usual indoctrination tactics mindlessly practiced on children. Certainly, parents of the RHP'S will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.
I'm glad *someone* agrees 
I just wanted to clarify my position. Of course parents should teach their children about all philosophies and religions objectively. That's what I meant, and I apologise if I didn't make this clear. I just mean that they shouldn't force their own beliefs on their children. If the child openly disagress it makes life somewhat unpleasant. (As I'm sure many here will agree based on their own experiences)
I still can't abide Racism. It clearly isn't a naturally ocurring state of mind. It's something that originated with different ethnicities being cut off from each other over the course of human evolution. Children unsullied by such teachings from their parents or others tend not to be racist.
Like people have said, a competitive spirit is important, but why focus on race vs race, as opposed to every man/woman/child for themselves? That opens up the playing field a hell of a lot more, and provides more of a challenge.
But that's not the topic, hence my not wanting to get into it here, but I couldn't let some comments slide.
_________________________
Hail Satan!
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#148182 - 03/01/06 12:38 PM
Pay attention.
[Re: uncleherpe]
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CoS Member
Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 2021
Loc: CA
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Pay attention. Re-read what I said. BARRING is the operative word here.
Edited by Quiddian (03/01/06 12:39 PM)
_________________________
Obscurum per Obscurius: Ignotum per Ignotius.
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#148184 - 03/01/06 02:18 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Tathariant]
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Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 323
Loc: Kansas
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Children influence their parents just as much as parents influence their children. Human beings are social creatures, and, therefore, cannot help but be influenced by each other. If the kids listen to idiot parents, they will be idiots. If they choose to listen to the parts they can actually use, they will be brilliant. They have a choice. Every kid that ever broke cerfew or sat in the back pew at church so the preacher wouldn't see him sleeping has exercised his freedom of choice. Parents don't exactly have a stranglehold on their children. The kids, though young and stupid most of the time, do have their own minds and they do have the ability to defy their parents (any parent could tell you so). Personal responsibility eventually comes into play, and at that point there is NO EXCUSE for bad behavior or general stupidity no matter how a person was raised.
There came a point in my life when I realized I didn't want to be a strict Baptist like my father, and I didn't want to be a hippie pagan like my mom. So I found my own path in life. I know it's hard to say no to mommy and daddy, but if these children don't learn to do that very thing once in a while, they're not worth all the words I've wasted on them here.
Parents can only be blamed for so much. Some of them really are completely retarded and they can't find an excuse for that, nor do they deserve one, but that reasoning can only go so far. No one cares how tortured you were as a child if you end up in jail every five minutes for your own stupidity. Personal responsibility plays a huge role in this. We are NOT products of our environment. We are products of PERSONAL CHOICES and FREE WILL.
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#148185 - 03/01/06 02:56 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Tejun2]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 786
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
My only solution, which doesn't involve some form of Facism, is flooding the market with open minded and alternative approaches to religion and society. Which seems to be the case here today in America.
Don't you bet on that! Things haven't changed all that much in the US and aren't likely too any time soon. People aren't as open minded as you seem to think, and they are far from teaching or accepting alternatives to the good old fashioned mind boggling "Old time religion"!
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#148186 - 03/02/06 07:55 AM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Witch_Scarlet]
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CoS Member
Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 581
Loc: Brighton, England
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Quote:
Quote:
My only solution, which doesn't involve some form of Facism, is flooding the market with open minded and alternative approaches to religion and society. Which seems to be the case here today in America.
Don't you bet on that! Things haven't changed all that much in the US and aren't likely too any time soon. People aren't as open minded as you seem to think, and they are far from teaching or accepting alternatives to the good old fashioned mind boggling "Old time religion"!
I don't believe things are that dissimilar here in the UK. Even in the more 'cosmopoliton' areas like Brighton, where, on the surface things appear more open-minded and alternative, when you scratch beneath the surface you find the same old predjudices and closed mind-set.
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#148187 - 03/02/06 11:48 AM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: DarkApollyon]
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Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 19
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Quote:
I don't believe things are that dissimilar here in the UK. Even in the more 'cosmopoliton' areas like Brighton, where, on the surface things appear more open-minded and alternative, when you scratch beneath the surface you find the same old predjudices and closed mind-set.
I agree entirely!
The UK harbours some of the most backwards, draconian and narrow minded bastards that ever walked on two legs.
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#148188 - 03/02/06 03:25 PM
Re: My Future Children
[Re: Tathariant]
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Registered: 11/27/05
Posts: 49
Loc: Oregon Coast
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The race-war being a product of "nature" that helps us advance may have been the case in the past but things are changing. Nature is remaining constant only in the sense that it is ever changing and adapting.
Example: Where I live, for the past decade or so, hatchery salmon have been released into the water systems that are populated by native salmon. This has been done in a way that the survival of the original race of salmon has pretty much been destroyed, only because cross-breeding will eventually eliminate the original line. There is nothing we can do to stop it.
This is comparable to the survival of any pure human blood-line or race. The change is already in full swing and nothing can stop it, I think if it is accepted, that one day on a long enough time-line there will only be one race, then racism will cease to be an issue.
In nature, animals donot make any attempt to keep their race pure. The only reason there are native species and original species is because of distance from other species and traditional feeding grounds. When there are encounters, cross-breeding is just as positive of an attribute as keeping the line pure.
Humans exist in about every climate on earth, and if there was a human who had a dash of each race, they could also receive the abilities to deal with multiple climates, the hi-bred human, possessing the best attributes of each race could and should be able to out perform any pure blood.
my opinion only
Tejun
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#148189 - 03/02/06 07:38 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Reznor]
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 78
Loc: Preston, UK
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I have the pleasure of sharing a flat with them  But still, compared to where I moved from (Northern Ireland)England is a cosmopolitan paradise. But then, Northern Ireland is supposed to be the most racist country in Europe. I'm enjoying reading this discussion, but we've moved off topic. I don't mind though
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Hail Satan!
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#148191 - 03/02/06 09:38 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Tathariant]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12944
Loc: The Solid State
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Because it somewhat relates to this topic of what constitutes proper influence of one's children, here's a good example of a terrible way to influence children: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0976726...5Fencoding=UTF8"Why Mommy is a Democrat" is likewise unnerving in its own way, but at least it doesn't encourage aggressive tribalism and hostile groupthink in the way this book seems to. Ugh, ugh, ugh.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."
"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!
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#148192 - 03/02/06 09:57 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: TrojZyr]
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CoS Member
Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 2021
Loc: CA
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I agree completely. This is totally a take-off on Xian bookstores using cartoons for indoctrination. Just clicking on this link reminded me of once when I walked by a xian bookstore and saw a bunch of kids books in the window. I swear, one day I'm going to wright my own parodies of religious children's book--for adults. I'm not limiting my themes to some damn cartoon about Jonah getting swallowed by a fish, either. There's going to be all sorts of juicy themes--all straight out of the old testament. It will have Abraham and Isaac human sacrifice popups, and King David violating his sisters back door--just like in Song of Solomon. I'll put it in the porn section and cover it with one of those "Must be 18 to read" covers. This should make the censors cock their heads like confused dogs. Get that damn bible off the shelves and burn it with the rest of the devil's filth! Religion is the effluence of humanity, and I am the toilet duck! Haha! 
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Obscurum per Obscurius: Ignotum per Ignotius.
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#148193 - 03/02/06 10:51 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Quiddity]
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Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
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i remember seeing some joke about a cartoon of sodom and gomorrah. that would be pretty funny...
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One stupid post too many.
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#148194 - 03/03/06 12:16 AM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Quiddity]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12944
Loc: The Solid State
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Dude, when you write this, be sure to call me so I can help.
Being a religion nerd, I know the ins and outs of all the juice and filth in the Bible.
For example, if you tease a bald man, he'll tell Yhwh to send killer bears after you.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."
"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!
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#148197 - 03/03/06 06:22 AM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Noxilenticus]
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CoS Magistra
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2837
Loc: Florida
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Quote:
I am a God. I have desires I need to fulfill. Fuck anything and everything that gets in that way. Why bother with sheep? Let them die already. Why bother even having kids? What purpose do they serve to YOUR desires? There's no point in continuing the life cycle unless you need some slaves to serve you.
Wow---a bit pissed off, aren't ya?
Just a reminder: You are not A God you are your Own God. The difference is important.
And when one is one's own God they get to choose whether having children will bring them joy, or not. The implication that a Satanist would only breed to create slaves is so fucking 1987.
Quote:
And the slaves shall serve.....
Sheep have uses, unless I want all you "gods" to mow my lawn, serve my fries, or give me my bikini wax.
Y~
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#148198 - 03/03/06 07:38 AM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Noxilenticus]
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CoS Member
Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2331
Loc: East Coast, USA.
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I think you missed the point. Quote:
I am a God. I have desires I need to fulfill. Fuck anything and everything that gets in that way.
That is fine, provided you're rational about it.
Quote:
Why bother with sheep?
As Priestess Ygraine pointed out, they serve a purpose.
As you get older, you'll see that.
Quote:
There's no point in continuing the life cycle unless you need some slaves to serve you.
Ridiculous.
Quote:
The people in power can do whatever the fuck they want to their kids as long as no one is big enough to overthrow them.
Definately missed the point.
Edited by AmbientLogic (03/03/06 08:01 AM)
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."
- Sam Harris
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#148200 - 03/03/06 09:13 AM
Re: Topic.
[Re: Ygraine]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 786
Loc: Texas
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I do not disagree with you about parents having the right to raise their children in the fashion they feel is best, and having raised four kids the way I wanted, I would never want to take away someone else’s rights to do the same. However, society dictates for the most part, not only in this country but in most countries how parents raise their children today. Safety and security for saying what is on one’s mind or the lack there of has never stopped anyone from doing it, not in our society or in others. (If it did then Dr. LaVey would never have written the Satanic Bible or started the church.)  Most people might not say it quite as often or as publicly. The Soviet Union was famous for dictating the people’s beliefs and life styles, most were terrified to say anything against the government, even when that government was taking their children away from them for the betterment of the country, but that didn’t stop some from speaking out even though it meant torture, and even death in some cases. No one said it was safe to state ones beliefs or opinions. Parents, and I speak of those in the US because this is where I live and know best, have been told how and when they can discipline their children and to some extent what schools they can send them to, what is acceptable behavior and whether or not their children have the right to practice any belief that falls outside of the “norm”. After all, if a kid doesn’t join in with school activities or the right group of friends he is labeled a trouble-maker, or worse now days. If he is eccentric, and I have seen a great many kids who are, then he is considered mental and is often sent to special classes or special schools. If a parent disagrees with any of these accepted conditions then they are harassed by the government, (local usually but there have been cases that have made national news and ended up in a federal courtroom,) and religious special interest groups who have nothing better to do with their time then stick their noses where they do not belong and think they have the right to decide how everyone should raise their children, or live their life. The parents are labeled as unfit or of low intelligence and there have been cases where the children were taken away from their parents due only to the beliefs that the parents held about raising their children. This type of interference is accepted practice today, fifty years ago it was not, and government had little say in how children were raised, parents wouldn’t have stood for it. This change came about because parents were told time and time again that it would be better if the government helped them raised their kids, and many parents just stopped taking responsibility for their children all together. The children and the parents have become so brow beaten by the accepted practices of society that even those who may have a satanic bent are often afraid to admit or accept it. Kids are told that they have to be the same as everyone else from birth now days, many have no idea that they have a choice in the matter until they are grown up and finally get the opportunity to experience life without to much interference. Unfortunately by that time they have been so ingrained with societies ideas and acceptances that they find it hard to ever truly live life to the fullest or to live up to their potential. Natural or not, most people can only take so much before they cave in to the pressures of society. Thankfully, there are those few who do not give in. Making the road rough that one travels may be a good thing but only to an extent that it does not interfere with the arrival at ones destination. But, I have probably gone well off the topic and strayed into another area all together at this point. 
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#148201 - 03/03/06 09:53 AM
Re: Topic.
[Re: Witch_Scarlet]
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CoS Magistra
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2837
Loc: Florida
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Scarlet-- Just so you know, I wasn't "trashing" you. I just used your post to launch my diatribe. Regardless I think we need to understand the concept of might being right. Many think that means the biggest on the block is or should be on top. It doesn't. It means that what IS must be what is right and mighty because it has succeeded. In other words all the discrimination and small-mindedness, the herdlike behavior, societies influence, have created US, those who question and advance the species by doing so. We would not be who we are if we weren't forced to deal with what is. A bigger problem, I think, than bad parenting is the creation of a system to "protect" the bad parents and their kids, preventing nature from doing its thing---preventing the next generation of bad from happening. I guess in the final analysis I am saying (not to you, silly Scarlet!) that we should mind our own fucking business regarding other people's parenting UNLESS it effects ourselves, our church, or is straightfoward abuse. And, while this is a matter of choice, I have kind of made it my crusade to protect those who cannot protect themselves. The various systems are non-natural and easily manipulated, but one pissed off Satanic witch can do wonders  Y~
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#148202 - 03/03/06 09:55 AM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: MagisterRose]
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CoS Magistra
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2837
Loc: Florida
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Quote:
He is quite adept at missing the point.
Oh Good! I was so afraid he was adept at nothing.
Y~
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#148204 - 03/03/06 10:53 AM
Re: Topic.
[Re: Witch_Scarlet]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12944
Loc: The Solid State
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Noxilenticus posted: There's no point in continuing the life cycle unless you need some slaves to serve you. Or, unless continuing the life cycle is otherwise pleasurable to you in other ways that don't relate to power or control. Seeing something or someone grow and evolve with your help and encouragement can be quite gratifying---that's why I keep a couple house plants around. Having a relationship with someone can be similarly enjoyable, as can passing down your ideas, stories, and values to someone who will likewise pass them on. Babboons spend much of their lives fixated on power and control, and who's above and who's below. They also get ulcers like crazy. Power and control are important parts of life, and are important parts to being a Satanist, but they do not constitute the whole. Otherwise, Satanism would not have many of the injunctions, principles, and ideas that it does; it would just have "power and control," and be garden-variety psychopathy. "Might makes right" is not its own isolated moral injunction. Meaning, those who are mighty do not suddenly become morally or ethically right according to some invisible cosmic standard (that's what we're trying to get away from in the first place), and we don't necessarily have to approve of, praise, like, or even feign apathy or pride in what they do. The people who win are sometimes total jerks, and one is still allowed to note that. Might makes right just means that we should not be too surprised or galled when the scales get tipped a certain way, or when certain individuals come out on top---in contrast, the masses are quick to gape, "But, but, he's evil! Evil can't win?" More importantly, it means that we should not expect that our own ethical strength or belief in our "goodness" or "rightness" will necessarily allow us to win in a power struggle. Might makes right means that the outcome is the outcome because that's what happened, and that outcome is right because it exists. But, "what's happened" is actually "what's happening," because it is a continuing, ever-evolving process, and the big players may often fall to the bottom, while the underdogs rise to the top. Through our effort, we can affect what happens next in the chain of events, so that we may survive and thrive. The people in power can do whatever the fuck they want to their kids as long as no one is big enough to overthrow them. Most Satanists are still dismayed by that kind of situation--without courting moral pipe dreams or getting solipsistic about what "ought" to be and therefore assuming that it "is" or "will be"---even when there isn't much that can be done. And, some Satanists even do things about it, if they truly care about certain situations involving children, animals, or someone or something else that's caught their eye and won their favor. Not to mention, it's not so much about people in power doing whatever they want with their kids, it's about parents in general having direct and primary jurisdiction over their kids, as opposed to strangers and the neighbors, because that's the way being a parent works, and should work. Likewise, it's about the fact that there's so much grey area that you can't reasonably and cleanly prosecute or crush certain distasteful behaviors, because they are still technically legal and/or "moral," and because going after those behaviors could set a bad precedent that could uproot legitimate parental rights. No one else cares about your core desires except yourself.My family members and close friends tend to care a lot about my core desires and goals. That's why I like and love them  . If no one around you cares a fig about your desires, then perhaps you need to surround yourself with better people. *Sorry for responding to your post accidentally, Scarlet!
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."
"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!
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#148206 - 03/03/06 11:14 AM
Re: Topic.
[Re: Witch_Scarlet]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12944
Loc: The Solid State
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Whoops! Sorry, I meant to respond to Nox, but I may have clicked the wrong post to reply to. But, I think you guys are easy to tell apart.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."
"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!
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#148208 - 03/03/06 04:02 PM
Re: Topic.
[Re: TrojZyr]
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CoS Warlock
Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6795
Loc: Forever West
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>>If no one around you cares a fig about your desires, then perhaps you need to surround yourself with better people.
Or lighten up. I would dread to think of what kind of people would be wanting to hanging around a person so hostile and resentful of their goals and desires.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney
"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes
“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman
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#148210 - 03/03/06 10:42 PM
Re: Topic.
[Re: Ygraine]
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CoS Member
Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1803
Loc: Lycopolis
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Quote:
It doesn't. It means that what IS must be what is right and mighty because it has succeeded.
In other words all the discrimination and small-mindedness, the herdlike behavior, societies influence, have created US, those who question and advance the species by doing so.
We would not be who we are if we weren't forced to deal with what is
Precisely.
And,
Time decides all in such matters.
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#148212 - 03/04/06 02:33 AM
Re: Topic.
[Re: TrojZyr]
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CoS Member
Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 274
Loc: Hell
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Quote:
Noxilenticus posted: There's no point in continuing the life cycle unless you need some slaves to serve you. Quote:
Or, unless continuing the life cycle is otherwise pleasurable to you in other ways that don't relate to power or control. Seeing something or someone grow and evolve with your help and encouragement can be quite gratifying---that's why I keep a couple house plants around. Having a relationship with someone can be similarly enjoyable, as can passing down your ideas, stories, and values to someone who will likewise pass them on.
Aren’t they serving your emotional needs by having them? Why classify it any different than the degrading thing it is? Slavery means to have control over something other than your self. When you water your plants, the plants are your slaves. They have no control over the amount of water you are going to give them. You may add more or less water depending on the way they turn out, but it is always your decision in the first place. That puts you in control of them. Similarly if someone wants to watch TV, the TV is their slave. The TV has no say in what channel it is going to be tuned into. You are its master. This master/slave relationship has been happening since the universe began. It is a hard concept for merciful people to grasp, especially when they put the lives of biologically classified life-forms in front of technology or other seemingly inanimate objects. Perhaps this is why they are often in the slave position themselves.
_________________________
"Satanists are epicurean, skeptical atheists who see Satan as a symbol of pride, individualism, and the quality of questioning all dogmas. The word in Hebrew means 'adversary' and so we are each 'Satans' to the doctrines that would have people use faith instead of reason to understand the universe in which we live. Our goal is to enjoy this, the only life we have and not waste it in anticipation of a mythical afterlife or an imagined apocalypse." - News 31 May, XLI A.S. in Reguards to The Satanic High Mass that happened on 6/6/6
- Noxilenticus Zodameranu
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#148213 - 03/04/06 02:33 AM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Ygraine]
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CoS Member
Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 274
Loc: Hell
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Quote:
I think you missed the point.
Believe what you want to. Just because I agree with a part of what you said does not mean I share the same perspective as you on our posts in whole.
Quote:
Why bother with sheep? Quote:
As Priestess Ygraine pointed out, they serve a purpose.
As you get older, you'll see that.
Quote:
Noxilenticus:
There's no point in continuing the life cycle unless you need some slaves to serve you.Quote:
AmbientLogic: Ridiculous.
Quote:
Priestess Ygraine: And the slaves shall serve.....
I think I share the same view Priestess Ygraine does. Even though I do not understand about the 1987 thing. What I meant by Why bother with sheep? was a question referring to the people that seemed to take parenting into society as a whole instead of just Satanic Parenting. Bluntly, the only thing that would be Unacceptable Parental Influence to a child, in my personal observation, would be that which contradicts The Satanic Bible or Satanic Principles.
_________________________
"Satanists are epicurean, skeptical atheists who see Satan as a symbol of pride, individualism, and the quality of questioning all dogmas. The word in Hebrew means 'adversary' and so we are each 'Satans' to the doctrines that would have people use faith instead of reason to understand the universe in which we live. Our goal is to enjoy this, the only life we have and not waste it in anticipation of a mythical afterlife or an imagined apocalypse." - News 31 May, XLI A.S. in Reguards to The Satanic High Mass that happened on 6/6/6
- Noxilenticus Zodameranu
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#148214 - 03/04/06 05:48 AM
Re: Topic.
[Re: Witch_Scarlet]
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CoS Member
Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 581
Loc: Brighton, England
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Quote:
I have had experience with people trying to dictate how I raised my kids, I was even forbidden to step foot in my daughters high school by the school board, apparently the parents of her class mates thought that I would corrupt their children simply because I was a Satanist and my daughter loved and respected me! Shocking isn’t it, that children of a Satanist parent might actually love and respect their parent?
The situation appears no different in the UK.
When my son was at Junior school I was called in on several occassions to 'discuss matters' with his teachers. These issues were usually quite petty, for example, They didn't like his haircut, they objected to me taking him to an Evanescence concert, or they felt he was 'socially marginalised' because he did not wear the same style of clothes, share the same intersts or listen to the same kind of music as most of the other kids. On this last issue they insinuated quite strongly that they thought this was harming him, even though he stated he was 'happy as he was', and on more than one ocassion threatened to get Social Services involved (this all happened a couple of years ago, before I became involved with CoS. If I had been open about Satanic beliefs, I think they would have taken things further, but that could just be my paranoia!).
Thankfully since he started Secondary school last September things have been okay, but my previous experiences tell me it is better to keep my Church of Satan membership 'in the closet', so to speak, at the present time!
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#148215 - 03/04/06 10:14 AM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Poetaster]
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Banned
Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 242
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Exactly. Parental influences are just the reflect of the persons parents are. A parent's rules used for educating his children is usually very similar to those used by the parent's parent. This is what I would call social evolution. Bound can be imposed on social behaviors, but on social evolution? That would be a nightmare if it can be.
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#148216 - 03/04/06 10:36 AM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Noxilenticus]
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CoS Warlock
Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
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Look 
_________________________
Has left the board.
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#148217 - 03/04/06 11:34 AM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Assabrah]
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Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3
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Quote:
Look
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#148218 - 03/04/06 12:04 PM
Re: Topic.
[Re: Discipline]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12944
Loc: The Solid State
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Cheers to that. Being light (but not airy) is always good for making friends. "Hey, wanna be my friend and get a slurpee?" "I am the Lone One! I am the warrior of shadows, friend to no man, walker of the path of tears and eternal sighs. Gaze upon my dark works, ye mighty, and despair! I devour the souls of the living, and they taste like chicken!" Dude, I may've found myself a new catchphrase. To Quiddian: Oh, or you can just PM or email me . Telephones are annoying anyway. Bible parody project? Sounds like fun to me. Count me in.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."
"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!
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#148219 - 03/04/06 12:29 PM
Re: Topic.
[Re: Noxilenticus]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12944
Loc: The Solid State
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Aren’t they serving your emotional needs by having them?
My emotional needs are being served, but in the case of most authentic relationships, their needs are being served as well. It's reciprocal.
Why classify it any different than the degrading thing it is?
Because it's not degrading.
Having friends, lovers, children, pets, plants---if you care for them, and they ideally care for you, and both parties gain pleasure and benefit from the relationship, there's nothing degrading there.
Slavery means to have control over something other than your self.
I'd say that slavery is about *complete,* or near-complete, control over something or someone. I have partial control or jurisdiction over lots of things and people, but they aren't my slaves, per se. Nobody's built me a pyramid lately (unfortunately).
When you water your plants, the plants are your slaves.
Or, the fact that they're so cute and pretty, and inspire me to get up, climb over the recycling bins, and water them may mean I'm a slave to *them.*
They can't built me a pyramid anyway, so they aren't the best slaves I could have, really.
On a much broader scale, plants are "slaves" to the CO2 we provide, and we are "slaves" to the oxygen they provide.
That puts you in control of them.
But if they die, I'll be sad.
So, it's in my interest to look out for their interests.
Similarly if someone wants to watch TV, the TV is their slave.
If someone watches TV all the time, or all day, they can become a slave to the TV.
This master/slave relationship has been happening since the universe began.
True indeed.
But, that is not the only relationship that exists.
If there is a perfectly equal exchange of benefits or goods, who is the "slave," and who is the "master?"
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."
"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!
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#148222 - 03/04/06 04:40 PM
Re: Topic.
[Re: Ygraine]
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Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 81
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As a child myself my parents where new life christians,they were fuckin insane ,towards what i was into as a child.
these are some examples;
Making me listen to heavy metal outside in the garage.
Taking pictures down off my wall of music hevy metal bands.
Putting the t.v im the man hole because it was EVIL
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Restricting what clothing i could wear.
Hiding books with occult information from me then taking them back
to the christian bookstore my father worked in.
Thowing my records out the door onto the footpath.
Trying to cast out SATAN in the name of jesus doing the laying on of hands thing like an excorcism.
they beleived all this media hype about satanic rock bands such as kiss not playing until these puppies they threw into the crowd came back dead,it was all christianity crap books they screwed my family up and fucked what i as a teenager wanted to do or be the most.I fuckin hate christians!!!I have always been drawn to the darker side of myself because i feel thats where my power is.
I started calling upon Satan long before i ever came across the Satanic bible i would of been about 12years old when i called upon Satan to destroy my father and destroy jesus a form of a destruction curse you could call it,so yes my Satanic journey started off as one of Rebellion and hate of christ. It has taken a long time to filter through the shitty things christianity has imposed upon my life children are like sponges they are very easily damaged they should be left to there own devices to pursue the path they so choose with out parents imposeing what they beleive on them so there mind is not abused. christianity is abuseive and should be destroyed .Those people from the church my parents went to are very lucky to be alive, aswell as my parents for the fuckin crap they done.So i feel strongly that parents should not impose what they beleive on there children,children dont need that.Let them find there own path or there will TROUBLE.
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#148223 - 03/04/06 04:47 PM
Re: Topic.
[Re: BEHERIT]
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CoS Warlock
Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3522
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Quote:
Putting the t.v im the man hole because it was EVIL
That may not be such a bad idea. 
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#148224 - 03/04/06 05:12 PM
Re: Topic.
[Re: BEHERIT]
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Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3
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Quote:
I started calling upon Satan long before i ever came across the Satanic bible i would of been about 12years old when i called upon Satan to destroy my father and destroy jesus a form of a destruction curse you could call it;
Did it work? 
Quote:
So i feel strongly that parents should not impose what they beleive on there children,children dont need that.Let them find there own path or there will TROUBLE.
If it wasn't for you parents imposing on you, how do you think it would have affected your development into the person you are today? I believe Thomas Edison replied when asked/ridiculed about his numerous failed attempts at inventing the light bulb, "I know 1000 ways how not to make a light bulb.
The point being you may have learned how not to be like your parents through their bad example. Can you see the benefit of "bad" parenting now?
Though irresponsible and worthless people are annoying, insulting, and downright disgusting, to the observant they prove most important in teaching by example of how not to accomplish success.
Edit:
Addenum- Do not confuse what not to do, with rebellion.
-Maximilian
Edited by Maximilian (03/04/06 08:27 PM)
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#148228 - 03/05/06 10:19 AM
Re: Topic.
[Re: DarkApollyon]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12944
Loc: The Solid State
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You're very welcome. It's one of my favorite strips, because of how it deals with relevant issues and important ideas while still being lighthearted and playful on the surface. Naturally, I also love how the protagonists are all happy outsiders, and how the good guys are usually carnivores, while the antagonists are, more often than not, herbivores like sheep and bunnies.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."
"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!
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#148229 - 03/05/06 04:29 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Tejun2]
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Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Scotland
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Quote:
This tactic has been used for ages and I think if we conceive of some way to eliminate the ability of parents to raise their kids into ignorance we may make some progress, but that is the question isn't it... how do we do that?
I was brought up In a small rural community in Ayrshire, Scotland. My mother, grandmother, great grandmother, and so on were all Roman Catholic, though my mother is no longer practicing. I always went to a Catholic school, from the age of 5, right through my school career. By the age of 8/9, I began to question things, though did not quite understand what I was questioning. Later at high school, I questioned more. I read up on Christian beliefs, and the Catholic teachings. I started many debates in school, and discovered my teachers had no answers. They could not explain what they believed, they did not understand what they believed.
I have not been a Satanist for long, it took me a while to find Satanism, and to be sure it was what I was looking for. I didn't follow a path, as I didn't know the route of each path.
I do not believe that parents or peers have such an impact on a child's beliefs. If I look at my own childhood, it was very sheltered. Others I see now in the street, who have choosen, or stuck with their Christianity, or with no religion at all, I believe they would always have became that way, wether they had been taught it as a child or not.
Surely everyone will find their religion? Whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Islam...or Satanism. Whatever path you are destined to follow, you wil find it eventually.
HS!
_________________________
Hail Satan!
---------------
They wave:- from out their fragrant tops
Eternal dews come down in drops.
They weep:- from off their delicate stems
Perennial tears descend in gems.
--E.A.Poe
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#148236 - 03/07/06 06:23 PM
Re: Unacceptable Parental Influences?
[Re: Tathariant]
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CoS Priest
Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10086
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On whether to procreate: Up to the individual. I never suggest that it's a bad idea, because as Heinlein so rightly pointed out, whatever refuses to breed will be replaced and overrun by that which does not. There aren't any Shakers around these days...
On what to do with offspring: I take the almost heretical view (among Satanists) that parents have a right to raise their children any way they like within the law. One can argue that human sheep harm their children by inflicting their stupid ideas on them, but usually their children are stupid and would have stupid ideas anyway. Seems like most of us present had Christian or otherwise religious parents, we made it out okay.
Likewise, I don't take the high-road "You also shouldn't 'inflict' Satanism on your children" route either. I've seen real-life examples of fine children raised by Satanists, as Satanists. Intelligent children with potential aren't going to be harmed by this, and it's degrading to Satanism to imagine that our religion is unsuitable for children. It's not. Like anything with a layer of complexity, the finer points require maturity, but the basic ideas are so natural to human behavior that it is not difficult in the least to raise a fine child with Satanic ethics.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."
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