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#149597 - 03/10/06 08:15 AM Theism and Satanism [Re: Atheon]
Achilles Offline


Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 223
This reminds me of a good article I found by Magister Nemo in '94 called "Church of Satan on Anonymity, Sacrifice & Stupidity." Another one being "Nemo's MFMFAQ."

If he still remembers.

Edit: Oh, I got Theism and Deism mixed up. Nevermind.


Edited by Achilles (03/10/06 02:31 PM)
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#149598 - 03/10/06 10:55 AM Re: Okay, what is a Deist? [Re: Atheon]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
>>I cannot see how deism and Satanism could "technically"
>>be compatible since Satanism by necessity is atheistic.

Says who? Satanism is a certainly non-theistic religion, but that doesn't automatically make it atheistic. I know some COS representatives will use the term "atheistic" in interviews when they just want to make it clear that Satanism isn't devil worship, but it doesn't hold in the strictest sense of the word.

Theism (or at least the externalized kind) is certainly incompatible with Satanism, but that doesn't mean deism or agnosticism can't work here. The actual existence or non-existence of deity, or how exactly the universe was spawned, is simply irrelevent to Satanic doctrine. That's what makes Satanism non-theistic. Whether the universe was created through the forces of physics, a big invisible man, or a Flying Spaghetti Monster, it doesn't matter -- the dogma of Satanism wouldn't change one bit.

"To the Satanist "God" - by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all - is seen as the balancing factor in nature, and not as being concerned with suffering. This powerful force which permeates and balances the universe is far too impersonal to care about the happiness or misery of flesh-and-blood creatures on this ball of dirt upon which we live." - The Satanic Bible
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#149599 - 03/10/06 05:11 PM Re: Okay, what is a Deist? [Re: Bill_M]
RustySpring Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/04
Posts: 1109
I agree with all of what you've said, Bill.

The Satanist should focus on doubt, not on belief.

Show me God and I will 'believe' in him; Don't, and I'll carry on assuming he doesn't exist (based on the limited scientific evidence available) until proven otherwise.

The bottom line is that I don't actually have anyway of knowing for sure if God exists or not. However, the evidence that we do have leads me to the conclusion that he does not exist.

The quote taken from TSB that you've used should sum things up quite nicely, leaving very little for interpretation.

I would argue that waiting for the 'scientific absolute' may be a lot more useful than trying to guess. Until then, doubt is our ally, not mindless belief!

On this note, I would argue that although I am a Satanist, I am also somewhat agnostic.

Atheism is essentially nothing but a ‘belief’ in the non-existence of God, and is - in my opinion - as arrogant and blinkered as Theism.

Or maybe I'm being a little bit too simplistic here?

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#149600 - 03/13/06 02:21 PM Re: Okay, what is a Deist? [Re: RustySpring]
Atheon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 42
Loc: Long Beach, CA
Atheism in the strictest sense of the word is not a belief in the non-existence of God. It only discribes those who are without a theism - theos (God) being defined as a personal being that created and/or is involved in the universe. There are positive atheists (one who says, "There is no God.") and negative atheists (one who says, "There is no proof of the existence of God. There I do not belief in one."). An agnostic says that there is no way to know if God exists or not. So, an agnostic is an atheist (a negative atheist to be exact). (Positive atheism is also called strong atheism. Negative atheism is also called weak atheism.)

Satanism is atheistic - is it a system of belief that does not include belief in a God (as defined above). Satanism IS necessarily atheistic. Belief in a personal universal creator has little to nothing to do with any actual scientific inquiry. It has more to do with the feeling that most humans have that they are not enough (powerless and therefore hopeless) and that something greater outside of themselves must give them value. Satanism is completely opposed to this, of course.

Deism is just as untenable as any other form of theism. It's really an intellectual cop out that does nothing to answer any real questions. Perhaps some can convince themselves that deism and Satanism are compatible. It really would just be a mental masturbation exercise that solves nothing.

I do agree with the statement from the TSB. However, the understanding of "God" there has nothing to do with atheism or agnosticism at all since that God is unrelated to the common definition of the word. "God" (or Satan, have you) is redefined to mean the forces of nature and nature itself. Satanism is, therefore, in agreement with a non-theistic pantheist (religious naturalist) view of the world.


Edited by Atheon (03/13/06 02:30 PM)
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#149601 - 03/13/06 03:54 PM Re: Okay, what is a Deist? [Re: Atheon]
RustySpring Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/04
Posts: 1109
Although this misunderstanding is essentially a matter of semantics, it appears that upon further investigation you are indeed correct.

It seems I have been slightly misinterpreting the word 'atheist' until now, as I thought the term only applied to one who absoluely denies the existence of God, when in actual fact is also applies to one who simply disbelieves the existence God.

You have actually cleared up a misunderstanding on my part and I thank you for that.

Hail Satan!

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#149602 - 03/13/06 04:14 PM Re: Okay, what is a Deist? [Re: Atheon]
Achilles Offline


Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 223
The better point is, however: how does Deism have any affect on the philosophy and religion of Satanism? It doesn't and a Satanist is free to believe a dark force, Satan, God, etc. started things in motion. It has no affect on Satanism. The problem comes in when a person worships or depends in an external force.

There really isn't a difference between being atheistic or deist, come to think of it. Deism believes a supreme being or something else started everything and left it, while atheism states that there is no supreme being in the first place. Both have no belief in anyone "watching" or "guiding" or intervening in human affairs.
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#149603 - 03/13/06 08:58 PM Re: Okay, what is a Deist? [Re: Atheon]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
>>Atheism in the strictest sense of the word is not a
>>belief in the non-existence of God. [...]
>>There are positive atheists (one who says, "There is no
>>God.") and negative atheists (one who says, "There is no
>>proof of the existence of God. There I do not belief in
>>one.").

Many times I've heard atheism similarly divided into "strong atheism" (the assertive disbelief in deity) and "weak atheism" (simply, the lack of belief in deity). But yes, I agree that "atheist" does not always mean "an assertive disbelief in deity". But it still doesn't have anything to do with proof, and mean you can use it as a synonym for "non-theistic", nor for that matter (and more on this later) "secular".

>>An agnostic says that there is no way to know if God
>>exists or not. So, an agnostic is an atheist (a negative
>>atheist to be exact).

The term "agnostic", coined sometime in the 19th century, was originally defined as somebody who firmly believes that the question of whether or not "God" exists has never been answered, and never will be. One could very well be a "weak atheist" and not have this opinion.

>>Satanism is atheistic - is it a system of belief that
>>does not include belief in a God (as defined above).

While one who simply lacks a belief in deity can be thought of as an "atheist", that doesn't make all religions and organizations who find deity to be non-applicable, "atheistic". The Coca-cola company, a Justice of the Peace wedding ceremony, and AT&T all operate with no mention of deity, but that doesn't make these atheistic. Just secular. Again, Satanism is a non-theistic religion. There is no contradiction with being both a deist and a Satanist. Views, or lack of them, on the creation of the universe are irrelevant to Satanism.

>>Deism is just as untenable as any other form of theism.
>>It's really an intellectual cop out that does nothing to
>>answer any real questions.

I'm going to assume by "cop out" here that you mean the common corrupted defintion, meaning an excuse. While again my personal view is that deists are atheists who haven't researched enough science, that's still just my view. We've debated lots of metaphysics in the members-only section of this forum. I don't think of such people as being less of a Satanist for, say, believing in ghosts when I personally don't.

>>However, the understanding of "God" there has nothing to
>>do with atheism or agnosticism at all since that God is
>>unrelated to the common definition of the word.

"God" is a vague enough term that you can find many people who identify as theists yet have a view of "God" that's quite different from the traditional monotheistic religions. To quote that first chapter again, "There are many diferent interpretations of God, in the usual sense of the word, as there are types of people. The images run from a belief in a god who is some vague sort of "universal cosmic mind" to an anthropomorphic deity with a long white beard and sandals who keeps track of every
action of each individual. Even within the confines of a given religion, the personal interpretations of God differ greatly."
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Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

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#149604 - 03/13/06 09:53 PM Re: Okay, what is a Deist? [Re: Witch_Scarlet]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
The most amicable sort of believer. Deists are just right; a world full of them would be a beautiful thing.

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#149605 - 03/16/06 02:27 AM Re: Okay, what is a Deist? [Re: Witch_Scarlet]
Noel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1220
Loc: Amerika
Simple bullshit sniff test:

Q: Does the concept involve an external deity?

A: In this case, the answer is yes: deism is "belief in the existence of an all-powerful creator who does not intervene in the universe" (OED).

Deism is theism without miracles.

With deism, intelligent design is inherent, as creation of the universe by an "all-powerful creator" requires intentionality; and not intervening in human affairs involves intentionality on the part of the "all-powerful creator."

Don't let people cook up a definition of deism or deists that runs contrary to most dictionaries or philosophy dictionaries.

It's bullshit.

Pure and simple.

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#149606 - 03/16/06 04:56 AM Re: Okay, what is a Deist? [Re: Witch_Scarlet]
MalkaviuZ Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 10
Loc: Germany
found this out on the web
hope it could help a little..
Quote:

Historical and modern deism is defined by the view that reason, rather than revelation or tradition, should be the basis of belief in God. Deists reject both organized and revealed religion and maintain that reason is the essential element in all knowledge. For a "rational basis for religion" they refer to the cosmological argument (first cause argument), the teleological argument (argument from design), and other aspects of what was called natural religion. Deism has become identified with the classical belief that God created but does not intervene in the world, though this is not a necessary component of deism.


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