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#149887 - 03/09/06 04:16 PM Introversion vs. Extroversion
Chess Offline
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Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
This topic came up in a recent discussion between TrojZyr and myself, and we figured we'd throw it open to the board and let it get kicked around.

Along the axis of introversion and extroversion, do Satanists tend to fall disproportionately on one side or the other? Or, to put it another way: is introversion more compatible with a Satanic personality than extroversion?

TrojZyr and I are both introverts, and we suspect that quite a few others here on the board are as well. But she and I are still at odds over the question of whether that's representative of Satanists as a whole, or an artifact of a selection bias (i.e. an Internet forum will tend to attract more thoughtful nerds than party animals.)

I can see both sides of the argument. As TrojZyr put it, "it's hard to be an extroverted misanthrope." But on the other hand, Dr. LaVey did speak of self-aware individuals occurring at all spots on the clock. So the question is if the disribution is more-or-less even, or if statistically we tend to skew to one side.

We actually arrived at this topic via a discussion of the Myers-Briggs, which makes a sharper introvert-extrovert distinction than does the LaVey Personality Synthesizer. (Mapping the MBTI onto the LPS is an interesting challenge all by itself, but it's somewhat beside the point here.)

Your thoughts? Introverts and Extroverts alike, speak up!

-Chess

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#149888 - 03/09/06 04:49 PM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: Chess]
Phex Offline


Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 63
Loc: Midwest
If introversion is the idea of one who is preoccupied with ones own thoughts, needs and feelings, that I believe many of us are that way by default. But, like most things, it's much deeper than that.

If one feeling or concern you have is the happiness of someone else, and you strive to make that other person satisfied simply for your happiness, what would you call that?
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#149889 - 03/09/06 05:03 PM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: Chess]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
I just located a quick-n-dirty article that nicely illustrates the basics:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200303/rauch

Keep in mind, folks, that introversion is not shyness. Introverts can be quite outgoing, sociable, and socially adept---I'm quite outgoing, for example---but, after a while, socializing and/or partying drains their energy, so they need to retreat into a quieter or more solitary activity. Engaging conversation about interesting topics will give an introvert a temporary boost of energy, however, so not all forms of socializing are created equal.

I'd tend to think that practically all Satanists would fundamentally be introverts, although some will inevitably be more or less introverted than others. Introverts care about big ideas, they don't get lonely easily, they don't cling to other people, they choose their company carefully, they're introspective, they're more self-aware, they often take longer to consider ideas more deeply, they enjoy and pursue hobbies that are either solitary or just require one or two other people, they don't like too much flash or excitement, etc. That sounds like many of the Satanists I know, at least.

But, of course I'll tend to heap more praise on introverts, since I am one.
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#149890 - 03/09/06 05:58 PM Hard ? [Re: Chess]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
Quote:

"it's hard to be an extroverted misanthrope."




No, in my opinion. I explain :

I see the term "extroverted" when you have no problem to open yourself to people (of course) but letting the door too much openned.

My point is this one : you can deal with everyone. To speak with people considered as sheeps could be useful. At this moment they'll think you are extroverted, while you have something else in mind which won't be felt by others. This is an introverted way to be.

Now, let's don't speak about some so called extroverted people on the web, who couldn't handle a conversation with you in life, by looking into your eyes, and with the same intensity. Very easy to see this.
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#149891 - 03/09/06 06:41 PM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: Chess]
Witch_Scarlet Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 787
Loc: Texas
Most of the Satanist I associate with are both. There are a few exceptions at both ends of the spectrum of course. They are at times highly introverted and preoccupied with their own projects and do not seek help or advice unless they absolutely need it. Many are highly successful and talented. Most prefer their own company, their own homes and keep a close nit group of friends and associates. Yet in a social gathering they are extremely extroverted and love to be in the middle of everything and bask in the attention they receive, most have a wonderful sense of humor and love to express it. They give their opinions freely when asked and sometimes when not asked, and can be the life of any party regardless of who is in attendance. They do not hesitate to go out and enjoy themselves with friends and family. They do not mind meeting strangers or those who do not share their interest as they use these times to study and learn new things. Yes, at times people and things get on their nerves but for the most part they simply ignore these irritations.

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#149892 - 03/09/06 06:53 PM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: Chess]
DataLore Offline


Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3
I am highly introverted by default, although I can be highly extroverted in certain situations when needed. By default I empower myself and my ego through personal activities and endeavors. I have a tendency of despising extroverts because the general consensus of them are pathetic beings who get sympathy and praise among others while having nothing about their character to warrant it. I generally classify individuals of this category as having "empty egos". They thrive almost completely on other's disposition and sympathy because they lack ability to please themselves. They exist primarily on social life, how well they fit in with the herd. Extroverts, if they happen to dig deeper into the character of the introvert, become very envious and cautious for their ego and reputation's sake. In effect they will tend to destroy the introvert socially.
The only times I take on the extroverted personality type is when dealing with extroverts and testing techniques of lesser magic. It is important to learn the effects of certain tactics from impression one has left on others.

I tend to agree that introverted personality types are mostly compatible with Satanism in terms of the independent individualism that Satanism represents. However the playing field in which some are competing on requires the approval of the democratic multitude so it is essential to seek the approval of others and draw upon their power. I would conclude that exhibiting both personality types will draw upon the most success, thus having both would be most compatible with Satanism.

Once an introvert learns the social dogmas, they come to emerge as the best leaders leading by example, not by appointed authority or birthright.

-Maximilian

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#149893 - 03/09/06 08:42 PM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: Chess]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
I think pigeonholing a Satanist is an exercise in futility.

Does Satanism attract certain personality types? Sure.

But I don't think a broad generalization is appropriate or effective.

The introvert/extrovert argument is null and void; both are compatible with Satanism.

Just an opinion of course.

As a side note: I scored an INTJ on the Myers-Briggs test; 78% introvert. I'd never heard of the test until you mentioned it in this thread. The explanation that came with my score was fairly accurate.

Go figure.


Edited by AmbientLogic (03/09/06 08:50 PM)
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- Sam Harris





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#149894 - 03/09/06 10:16 PM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: Poetaster]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
Quote:

The introvert/extrovert argument is null and void; both are compatible with Satanism.




Yes, it surely is.

This kind of subject makes me remember Kant in one essay he had written, classifying people...That was like " N1 is blah blah blah, while N2 is more blah blah..."

We are talking about individualism here, not CLONES !
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#149895 - 03/09/06 11:36 PM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: Assabrah]
Chess Offline
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Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:

This kind of subject makes me remember Kant in one essay he had written, classifying people...That was like " N1 is blah blah blah, while N2 is more blah blah..."



Or Dr. LaVey in The Satanic Witch? The twelve o'clock man has certain traits...

These sorts of measurements (particularly the psychological ones) are often misapplied, of course, but they do have their uses.

Quote:

We are talking about individualism here, not CLONES !



And that's just the sort of misapplication I'm talking about.

I have a Myers-Briggs rating (INTP in this case). I also have a blood type. And a body mass index. And an IQ. And about three zillion other metrics that measure some part of me and then drop me into a category. Now, those categories may apply to me, but not one of them (nor even the whole assortment of them put together) defines me.

So I'm not afraid to be in a category. I know there's plenty more to me than just what's in there. Plus it can provide useful information... or even point up an apparent correlation that inspires a discussion thread.

-Chess

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#149896 - 03/10/06 05:27 AM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: Chess]
Mason_Rust Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 1780
Loc: Michigan, USA
Honestly, it depends upon what suits me.

I do enjoy plenty of social situations, even if some people are included who I would exclude if I could. I enjoy performing in different aspects, from telling a good joke amongst newly met strangers on up to doing something on a stage.

At the same time, I'm not always likely to talk to people first, but rather, end up being the person approached. I don't always tell everything I know about a subject if it comes up in conversation, even if I'm very familiar and have more knowledge on it than those discussing it. I have artwork I don't feel the need to show others.

I would expect many Satanists to feel this way, not being really one or the other, but that isn't to say all Satanists will feel this way.
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-Carl Sagan

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#149897 - 03/10/06 05:40 AM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: TrojZyr]
BEHERIT Offline


Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 81
I am introverted this does not mean i sit at home isolated all day.Introverted people are the silent ones, they make others feel uncomfortable,the presence of the introvert is solemn, silent introspective. I like to descibe my introvertedness like the beginning of the nuclear mushroom cloud, it sucks everthing up into it then decimates all in its path, other times its very, very deep contemplative states of thought.Introverts operate on an observant level, they are much more independent, intuitive and decerning individuals.Being an introvert this is how it is for me.

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#149898 - 03/10/06 07:06 AM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: Chess]
IX Von ZehEhv Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 708
I grew up rather keeping to myself, typically introverted. But as my interests in 'self' grew, I realised the need to adapt to different social situations. For business purposes, at times I need to be rather outgoing. Then at the end of the day I breathe a sigh of relief to have it done and enjoy the peace and quiet.

My opinion is that a Satanist is either/neither. They are what they choose to be, which is directed by what they want.
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#149899 - 03/10/06 07:57 AM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: Chess]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
Quote:

I can see both sides of the argument. As TrojZyr put it, "it's hard to be an extroverted misanthrope." But on the other hand, Dr. LaVey did speak of self-aware individuals occurring at all spots on the clock. So the question is if the disribution is more-or-less even, or if statistically we tend to skew to one side.




Well, I think that to sum it to "it's hard to be an extroverted misanthrope" is a little too black & white. There can be several shades to it, in reality.

I for instance, when in a situation I have to be around sheep for whatever interest that I may have at the time, will talk to them about the Big Brother Brazil and make it sound like Im really interested. That may make it seem I am an extrovert type, often times people will tell me that Im so friendly, nothing like I "portray to be online."

On the other hand, those with a little brain, can perceive that in these situations, Im not at all talking about myself to a personal level, what Im doing is merely entertaining the sheep as a means to an end. Furthermore, if I wasnt obligated so to speak, to entertain them, as for instance if these same sheep I had to talk to about the Big Brother Brazil and sound really interested at a determined event were to bump into me whilst having a private night out, or just anywhere in a obligation-free scenario, theyd have a completely different picture of me, plus Id never bring them to my lair, as opposed to how they like to believe I would. So in short, no, Im not keen on people at all, but Ill have them believe that I truly am, if the situation would require me to do so.

HS!

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#149900 - 03/10/06 08:37 AM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: TrojZyr]
DarkApollyon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 581
Loc: Brighton, England
I found the article interesting as I could see myself in it quite strongly! I've always thought of myself more as a loner than an introvert, but at the end of the day they're both just labels!

I do spend a lot of my free time alone, and if I go to the cinema, or a concert, unless I'm going with my son I tend to go on my own, which others sometimes find a bit strange but doesn't bother me. I do tend to find being around others, with a few notable exceptions, tiring, but enjoy social intercourse in small doses - I would find spending a lot of time round others would drive me crazy (or homicidal!).

I have noticed that a lot of people find these traits a bit weird or antisocial, but that's their problem! Interestingly when I was younger I used to see my 'need' to be separate from the 'social whirl' as a negative thing, but as I've got older I now see it as one of my strongest characteristics!
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#149901 - 03/10/06 10:21 AM Re: Introversion vs. Extroversion [Re: TrojZyr]
LightSnake Offline


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 49
Quote:

I just located a quick-n-dirty article that nicely illustrates the basics:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200303/rauch






A couple of points in that article were of especial personal resonance:


Quote:

[...] when you see an introvert lost in thought, don't say "What's the matter?" or "Are you all right?"





When I was young fella, a frequent issue with the familial critters is that they often 'knew' I was "upset about something" but was "refusing to tell them what." Invariably, what set them off was me merely sitting and thinking quietly. Much interrogational goose-chasing would often follow, which would get me upset, which is then taken as proof that I was really upset to begin with.

Attempts to directly clarify that situation met with little success:

"What are you upset about?"
"I'm thinking. "
"Well you shouldn't think so much if it gets you upset."


Quote:

Female introverts, I suspect, must suffer especially. In certain circles, particularly in the Midwest, a man can still sometimes get away with being what they used to call a strong and silent type;




It is interesting to me, that introverted traits can, in a male, be seen as some highly-masculine type. I've had several occasions when somebody's described/accused me of "acting tough/macho" when all I'm doing, again, is just being thoughty and mum. This is a bit of a problem in situations were you have to be a team-player, appearing to like everyone, etc. But when I'm out and about in the homo underground, I happily use these for-free macho points the better to attract those I want to attract, and to alienate/pain those I want to alienate/pain.

"Oh, you have to act all macho."
"I was doing nothing. I'm sorry if doing nothing isn't faggy enough for you." *cold_catlike_stare*

I practically landed my last boyfriend just by doing this sort of thing.

--LightSnake

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