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#150410 - 03/12/06 02:25 AM Violence
BEHERIT Offline


Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 81
The strongest instinct in every living creature is self preservation,which brings us to the last of the seven deadly sins-ANGER.Is it not our instinct for self preservation that is aroused when someone harms us,when we become angry enough to protect ourselves from further attack?A Satanist practices the motto,"If a man smite thee on one cheek, smash him on the other!"Let no wrong go unredressed.Be as a lion in the path-be dangerous even in defeat!

I am feeling angry and i dont deal with it well.How does a Satanist deal with it.I usually get violent.I am a Satanist and this is keeping in step with the Satanic bible. Violence is condoned even promoted by The Doktor.Isnt it hypocritical to call urself a Satanist and be anti- violence?


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#150411 - 03/12/06 02:36 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Quiddity Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 2021
Loc: CA
The most effective forms of love and violence execute in total silence.
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Obscurum per Obscurius: Ignotum per Ignotius.

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#150412 - 03/12/06 02:47 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Sarracenia Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/29/02
Posts: 1477
Violence is condoned even promoted by The Doktor.Isnt it hypocritical to call urself a Satanist and be anti- violence?

No.

If I disagree with my professor about a grade, I do not punch him in the nose.

If a child annoys me, I do not twist his arm to the point of fracture.

If I police officer unfairly gives me a ticket, it would not be wise to pull a gun on him.

In all cases, I am anti-violence, I am a Satanist and I am no hypocrite. Violence, like compassion and diplomacy, has its time and place. Anger does not equate violence, and to think otherwise is sublimely idiotic.
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#150413 - 03/12/06 02:59 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
IX Von ZehEhv Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 708
I suggest re-reading The Satanic Bible. Please remember that criminal activity, should you be referring to violence in this context, is NOT condoned.

The Fifth Satanic Statement as can be found here must be read in context. There are many legal means with which to crush someone. Sometimes they can be much more cruel than any physical action you could have taken.

As I am not a representative for the CoS, if you need to further clarify perhaps ask the Moderators in the 'Questions about the Church of Satan' area for an official reply.

As for your question regarding dealing with anger, ritual is used as an outlet for this tension. If performed as described by Anton LaVey, you should no longer have a problem. It can also help to keep things in perspective ie, Put things in priority, is it really worth being angry about?
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#150414 - 03/12/06 03:41 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
>>I am feeling angry and i dont deal with it well.
>>How does a Satanist deal with it.

In the ritual chamber, silly. See The Satanic Bible, particularly the Book of Belial.

>>Violence is condoned even promoted by The Doktor.

Philosophically perhaps, but let's be realistic. I'm not a COS representative, but I do know that the Church of Satan does not condone any illegal activity. We have laws for a good reason, and to do something that may very well land one in jail is stupid.

>>Isnt it hypocritical to call urself [sic] a Satanist
>>and be anti-violence?

As in, non-violent? No. But it is hypocritical to call oneself a Satanist and have no power of self-responsibility.
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#150415 - 03/12/06 05:29 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Violence is only appropriate in response to violence (in self defense) or to prevent violence.

Satanism does not condone violence just because Mr. Grumpy-pants is having a bad life and wants to lash out at someone who is probably better than he is.

Get a punching bag.

If you commit an act of unwarranted anti-social violence, then you deserve to rot in prison with all the other compulsive anti-social losers. There they can be violent to each other for their own petty reasons, and hopefully rid the world of their stupidity in the process.
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#150416 - 03/12/06 07:32 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Bogey_Man Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/25/02
Posts: 1888
Loc: Lost.
It's not about acting upon every little emotion that pops into your head. If we all did that, a lot of us would be in prison. In short, it's okay to be angry, but it's not okay to go around like Baby Huey and smash everything when you don't get your way. Satanism is not anti-violence, but definitely anti-stupidity.

Honestly, people look more like assholes than anything else when they get violent.

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#150417 - 03/12/06 07:54 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Quiddity Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 2021
Loc: CA
There is an answer, but I won't hand it to you--although you do have help.

Here is a clue:

Which in more likely to accomplish his mission--an organized soldier, or an angry one?


Edited by Quiddian (03/12/06 09:55 PM)
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Obscurum per Obscurius: Ignotum per Ignotius.

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#150418 - 03/12/06 09:13 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Apparently you missed the whole "rational self-interest" bit.

As it's been stated, violence is not condoned. That you think it should be, tells me all I need to know about you.

I'll defend myself if necessary, that is natural self-preservation at work.

I will not, however, become a belligerent asshole at the drop of a hat.

If anger and violence go hand-in-hand with you, I would suggest seeking professional therapy.
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#150419 - 03/12/06 09:46 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
mattevans Offline


Registered: 01/14/04
Posts: 147
Loc: Japan
Violence is not a good idea except in self defence. There are always consequences. You could go to prison.
There are people more fearsome than you. If a blow knocks you down and you hit your head you can die.
Is that what you want?

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#150420 - 03/12/06 09:50 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
I think it is impossible to be a Satanist and a pacifist, for example. I sneer at those who say they'd allow even some hooligan to kill or seriously injure them just so that they can prove a point and polish a goodguy badge. I once read a disgusting essay in an "alternative" newspaper where one regular columnist basically admitted that she would 've let a burglar-rapist kill her and her child if it had come to that, because she refuses to inject more negativity into the cosmos, or somesuch new age crap.

But, that being said, there are more daily situations in life where it is wiser and better to be non-violent than violent. Violence and non-violence are both tools, and if you use them poorly, you will quickly end up in a world of hurt.

The bulk of ninnies who absolutely cannot figure out when to be violent and when not to be violent deserve, to my mind, prison, dismemberment, and/or death. I'm seconding Magister Svengali here.

If you are feeling violent or angry, take it to the ritual chamber, or, develop a hobby or a regimen that allows you to "cool down." If you're mad, go hiking up a difficult trail, paint a wild picture, write an angry or sad story, watch a movie that makes you get those feelings out or calm them down, punch a punching bag, scream into a pillow.



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#150421 - 03/12/06 12:28 PM Rational Anger [Re: BEHERIT]
Isabel23 Offline
CoS Magistra

Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 2041
It is quite unSatanic to be controlled by one's emotions. They really need to be mediated by your rational mind.

It is also quite easy to say this, but to learn how to take charge of one's emotions can be difficult at times, especially with powerful emotions like anger.

Albert Ellis has an acid style, might even make you mad. However, he is very effective and quite rational. Do check out one of his books. Any one will do, as the principles are the same; each of his self help books is focused on a particular problem.
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CoS Magistra

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#150422 - 03/12/06 12:36 PM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
Try football (soccer). But don´t go kicking the other players, Mr. -- that´s not allowed.

Any sport really, is a great energy reliever. By the time you´re done at each match, or whatever, you´re too knackered to be angry. Try that.


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#150423 - 03/12/06 12:43 PM Re: Rational Anger [Re: Isabel23]
Witch_Scarlet Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 787
Loc: Texas
His books are wonderful, as is his video,
"A GUIDE TO RATIONAL LIVING" if you can get a hold of it.

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#150424 - 03/12/06 01:49 PM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
In my opinion, I think passivism is unSatanic.

However, violence for the sake of violence is retarded. The world is the way it is, but to be blatant is the path to your own self-destruction.

I would suggest thinking your emotions through logically before you become a slave to them.
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#150425 - 03/12/06 07:54 PM Re: Rational Anger [Re: Isabel23]
Barb Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 587
Quote:

It is quite unSatanic to be controlled by one's emotions. They really need to be mediated by your rational mind.




I agree with what you’ve said.

Usually when you get angry, it is when someone or something else MAKES you feel that way. I say, you just need to stop and remember that YOU are YOUR OWN God. This is what I do when I get angry, and in reminding myself of that, I often convert my anger into stimulation or excitement. Anger and excitement are both strong feelings, so the amount of emotional energy is about the same; therefore, I just change what kind of strong feeling I feel.

It is more difficult to get rid of a feeling than it is to convert it to something else; getting rid of a feeling requires you to get rid of emotional energy that has built up inside you, but converting your feelings just changes a bad feeling into a good one. It works very quickly for me (like around ten seconds or less) and is quite convenient if I am at work or in another public place where neither of my ritual chambers are accessible.
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#150426 - 03/12/06 09:55 PM Re: Rational Anger [Re: Barb]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:


Usually when you get angry, it is when someone or something else MAKES you feel that way.




No one can make you feel something, you allow it to happen. If you don't allow the anger to manifest in the first place you won't act upon it.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#150427 - 03/13/06 08:35 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
What exactly is it, that you are looking for here.
A green light to be violent.
If you need to be violent, why ask for some kind of permission?
If someone has wronged you wrong them back.
If you are experiencing rage on a just because basis, then you need some medication to keep you leveled out.
I would recommend a good psychiatrist, a good work-out, and to lay off the Incredible Hulk Comic Books.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#150428 - 03/13/06 11:28 AM Re: Rational Anger [Re: dragondancer]
Maya Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 1447
Loc: New England
Quote:


No one can make you feel something, you allow it to happen. If you don't allow the anger to manifest in the first place you won't act upon it.




You are quite incorrect. Any good psychologist can tell you that it is nigh impossible to stop anger before it starts. Physical reaction (anger, which happens in the brain) to external stimuli is very difficult to control. Even when it can be controlled, it can only be controlled in certain circumstances.

Your statement reeks of white light-ish bullshit about anger being wrong. I suggest that you read it again and really think about what you wrote.

The truth is that while one may not be able to avoid anger (nor is it healthy to attempt to suppress it), one does determine one's reaction to it. Anger is one thing and violence is another. It is ridiculous to think that anger necessarily results in violence.

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#150429 - 03/13/06 01:59 PM Re: Rational Anger [Re: Maya]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

Quote:


No one can make you feel something, you allow it to happen. If you don't allow the anger to manifest in the first place you won't act upon it.




You are quite incorrect. Any good psychologist can tell you that it is nigh impossible to stop anger before it starts. Physical reaction (anger, which happens in the brain) to external stimuli is very difficult to control. Even when it can be controlled, it can only be controlled in certain circumstances.

Your statement reeks of white light-ish bullshit about anger being wrong. I suggest that you read it again and really think about what you wrote.

The truth is that while one may not be able to avoid anger (nor is it healthy to attempt to suppress it), one does determine one's reaction to it. Anger is one thing and violence is another. It is ridiculous to think that anger necessarily results in violence.




Hmmm.....you sound kind of angry. I think I have not made myself very clear here, perhaps I should clarify a few things.

First of all, I have many times stopped myself from being angry in a situation. It is not an easy thing to do for sure, but I am here to tell you that it can be done, despite what any good psychologist will tell you. ( I may not be able to stop some of the physical reactions at first, such as increased heartrate, muscle tension, etc., but after a few seconds of conscious effort I can do it.)

White light-ish bullshit? Where in my statement did I say anger was right or wrong. There are times it is very necessary not to give someone the power to evoke emotion in you. That is not the same as always repressing anger. There are also many times when anger should certainly be expressed, and can be a beneficial emotion to have in certain circumstances.

My point was that you are not necessarily a slave to your emotions. At least I am not. I do not need to give someone the power to evoke an emotion in me. It may happen, I may decide it should happen, but it doesn't have to happen. I simply do not subscribe to the idea that my emotional well being is contingent upon anyone else, whether that emotion is anger, hatred, happiness, love...what-have-you.

Yes, indeed one can determine one's reaction to it when it does happen, and perhaps that is what I am really getting at here. The fact that you don't need to let anger manifest itself through your behavior. Of course anger and violence are two very different things, I certainly never suggested otherwise. Anger is the emotion, violence is a behavioral manifestation of the emotion. Behavior is a lot easier to control than emotion, however that is not to say you can't control emotion. I have done it, many times.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#150430 - 03/13/06 02:15 PM Re: Rational Anger [Re: Maya]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

Quote:


No one can make you feel something, you allow it to happen. If you don't allow the anger to manifest in the first place you won't act upon it.




You are quite incorrect. Any good psychologist can tell you that it is nigh impossible to stop anger before it starts. Physical reaction (anger, which happens in the brain) to external stimuli is very difficult to control. Even when it can be controlled, it can only be controlled in certain circumstances.

Your statement reeks of white light-ish bullshit about anger being wrong. I suggest that you read it again and really think about what you wrote.

The truth is that while one may not be able to avoid anger (nor is it healthy to attempt to suppress it), one does determine one's reaction to it. Anger is one thing and violence is another. It is ridiculous to think that anger necessarily results in violence.




Hmmm.....you sound kind of angry. I think I have not made myself very clear here, perhaps I should clarify a few things.

First of all, I have many times stopped myself from being angry in a situation. It is not an easy thing to do for sure, but I am here to tell you that it can be done, despite what any good psychologist will tell you.(I may not be able to stop the physical reaction right away, such as increased heartrate, muscle tension, etc., but after a few seconds of concious effort, I can do it.)


White light-ish bullshit? Where in my statement did I say anger was right or wrong. There are times it is very necessary not to give someone the power to evoke emotion in you. That is not the same as always repressing anger. There are also many times when anger should certainly be expressed, and can be a beneficial emotion to have in certain circumstances.

I never suggested that anger should always be repressed. My point was that you are not necessarily a slave to your emotions. At least I am not. I do not need to give someone the power to evoke an emotion in me. It may happen, I may decide it should happen, but it doesn't have to happen. I simply do not subscribe to the idea that my emotional well being is contingent upon any other individual, whether that emotion is anger, hatred, happiness, love.....what-have-you.

Yes, indeed one can determine one's reaction to it when it does happen, and perhaps that is what I am really getting at here. The fact that you don't need to let anger manifest itself through your behavior. Of course anger and violence are two very different things, I certainly never suggested otherwise. Anger is the emotion, violence is a behavioral manifestation of the emotion. Behavior is a lot easier to control than emotion, however that is not to say you can't control emotion. I have done it, many times.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#150431 - 03/13/06 02:21 PM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
ElJago Offline


Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Northumberland, England
I used to be angry for no particular reason, maybe I had a chip on my shoulder, maybe I had "small man" syndrome (I'm a shortass !)

I went to the doctor because my anger was controlling me not the other way round as it should be.

I have been on beta blockers ever since, I also found cutting my consumption of alcohol helped. Feeling angry all the time or for no reason is not normal you really should get it seen to.
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#150432 - 03/13/06 02:42 PM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
DataLore Offline


Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3
Quote:

Isnt it hypocritical to call urself a Satanist...




Your posts are very frequent with ironies.


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#150433 - 03/13/06 02:55 PM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Citizen Jonesy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/22/02
Posts: 995
Loc: Palm Springs, California, USA
Quote:

The strongest instinct in every living creature is self preservation,which brings us to the last of the seven deadly sins-ANGER.Is it not our instinct for self preservation that is aroused when someone harms us,when we become angry enough to protect ourselves from further attack?A Satanist practices the motto,"If a man smite thee on one cheek, smash him on the other!"Let no wrong go unredressed.Be as a lion in the path-be dangerous even in defeat!




Quote:

I am feeling angry and i dont deal with it well.How does a Satanist deal with it.I usually get violent.




Getting violent is rarely the way to solve a problem. Your (misunderstood) quote from The Satanic Bible deals with situations where your very life is in danger.

Quote:

I am a Satanist




You sure about that?

Quote:

and this is keeping in step with the Satanic bible. Violence is condoned even promoted by The Doktor.Isnt it hypocritical to call urself a Satanist and be anti- violence?




I think, once again, your getting the wrong signals. Many Satanists are anti-violence. We will protect ourselves, if and when it becomes necessary, but just being violent for no reason is, in this God´s opinion, unSatanic.

Which I believe you are too.
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#150434 - 03/13/06 05:40 PM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
Unlike other religions that try to dismiss or repress emotions like anger, the Satanist has learned to use them. I realize that if a human being can experience an emotion like anger or hatred, it must serve a purpose. Self-preservation in a time when man needed a fast dose of adrenalin to fight abundant threats. Now we often get angry for useless things. But a Satanist can harness that emotion and put it "out there" to achieve positive results. I've gotten rid of a couple of annoying neighbors that way. Try it. At the very least you will have spent some of that violent emotion. And at the most, you may get exactly what you want!

Here's an example: You hate your boss with an unholy passion. It's nothing you did, he's just a real prick. Now, you have two options. 1) You let that emotion take over and you wait for him in the parking garage with a baseball bat and...

2) You use that hatred to motivate you to get up on your day off to go find another job, or to start your own business, or...

Option 1 lands you in prison and option 2 maybe gets you a happier life. The emotion itself is not bad or sinful (as other religions teach). It's what you do with it to get results. Add some magic to the mix and you're off to the races.

The Satanic Bible is not meant to be an excuse to justify random violence. The "Smash him on the other!" reference is just to hammer home the idea that a Satanist does not take the feeble pacifist approach that Xianity teaches. Because after all, "turn the other cheek" just means "go ahead, hit me again!" How much sense does that make?
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#150435 - 03/13/06 08:10 PM How do you perform in a mismatch? [Re: BEHERIT]
Quiddity Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 2021
Loc: CA
Something easily missed--yet highly effective is the ability to weaponize creativity--something difficult to do when aroused (what we usually refer to as "anger"). Below is a link to a great example of weaponizing creativity in a situation where the magician was not angry--but could have been easily aroused by fear--possibly leading to immediate destruction.

The example is non-destructive. Self-preservation was the priority here, but in many situations (in my opinion), it's too safe and easy to limit our perspective to non-destructive methods, for the sake of not offending the uninvolved. It's just that when one is in the frame of mind that your post suggests, it appears that calm is the first priority--if not the most important.

Manipulation

The means by which a Satanist with a clear head can bring down an enemy are many and profound. There is no shortage of destructive tools at your disposal. The trick is to bring about a state of mind that will facilitate your enemy's destruction--and NOT YOUR OWN. As a Satanist IT IS YOUR JOB to be superior to the herd and not be taken in by your own devices. Sew confusion and uncertainty amidst the enemy--not yourself.

I personally have no respect for bitches who bend over for their enemy to keep the peace, nor out of control shitheads who make life miserable for the unintended. I do however, feel a tremendous pull toward those who are given a shit sandwich--totally without cause, and respond with a totally unexpected and thorough reversal. This is nature at it's best, and we--as Satanists reject those who whine about the inequities of life. How you perform in a mismatch is PRECISELY what is of interest to the Satanist--and the natural selection process of Social Darwinism. After all, when one is in the superior position, one is expected to win.

How will you proceed, Satanist?
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#150436 - 03/13/06 10:07 PM I disagree. Count to 10. [Re: Maya]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Rational cognitive psychological theory also disagrees, by the way. Albert Ellis (now in his mid-90s) was a pioneer in that field but he is by no means alone.

Anger is a secondary and not primary emotion. Client-centered psychological theory as per Carl Rogers proposed that idea over fifty years ago.

Clinical results abound to demonstrate that anger is controllable and one can learn to not be angry when that emotion proves to be inappropriate (which is usually about 99% of the time).

Anger requires the primary emotion of frustration to be accompanied by or followed by some judgment.

The judgement is almost always irrational, by the way. It is usually a global demand that reality be different from the way it already is.

"Dammit! That SHOULD NOT have happened!"

But it DID happen. Welcome back to the reality you don't like where it DID happen.

You may be frustrated by a traffic jam but it requires telling yourself something about how this is "unacceptable" to elicit anger.

You may be frustrated over an increase in property taxes but it requires telling yourself that “I’m as mad as hell and I’m not going to take it any more” to get angry.

You may be frustrated that your country is losing a war but it requires telling yourself that this is impossible to stand to feel anger.

With practice these words come so fast you may not even consciously realize they are there.

But they are there.

And they can be uncovered and changed.

Anger is evidently a hold over from a fairly primitive fight for survival response. It has its place if all else fails.

The belief that anger cannot be controlled, that it is a primal force that, like hydraulic pressure in an engine must be "released" and not suppressed", remains popular but wrong.

Anger is learned and, with effort at right attention, can be largely unlearned and certainly better controlled.

Believing otherwise while popular is not correct and often acts as an excuse for not making the effort to discipline the mind to change that reaction.

After all why get mad when you can get even?

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#150437 - 03/13/06 10:39 PM Re: I disagree. Count to 10. [Re: Nemo]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Another fantastic post; as if that's surprising.

These ideas are fascinating and I'd be pleased to study them.

Is there any particular reading material that you'd recommend?
_________________________






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#150438 - 03/13/06 11:15 PM Re: Rational Anger [Re: dragondancer]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

Quote:


Usually when you get angry, it is when someone or something else MAKES you feel that way.




No one can make you feel something, you allow it to happen. If you don't allow the anger to manifest in the first place you won't act upon it.


Hail Satan!





I disagree. for instance-if I decided to take a piss on your carpet i am sure you would be angry. its natural and I believe you cannot control how you feel, you can only control how you choose to deal with it.


nemo- that makes sense in a lot of circumstances, but not all. there are things that are TRULY unnaceptable no matter how you think about it.


Edited by uncleherpe (03/13/06 11:18 PM)
_________________________
One stupid post too many.

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#150439 - 03/13/06 11:24 PM Treat yourself... [Re: Nemo]
Quiddity Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 2021
Loc: CA
Holy bucking fatshit. You just don't fuck about, do you Magister?

I don't want to sound like an ass-kisser here, but seriously, if you guys really want to treat yourself to some great wisdom, read his other posts as well. There's a fantastic backlog of great perspectives in his other posts as well.

Magister Nemo's other posts
_________________________
Obscurum per Obscurius: Ignotum per Ignotius.

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#150440 - 03/14/06 05:02 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
DarkApollyon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 581
Loc: Brighton, England
Quote:

I am feeling angry and i dont deal with it well.How does a Satanist deal with it.I usually get violent.I am a Satanist and this is keeping in step with the Satanic bible. Violence is condoned even promoted by The Doktor.




I must say this does seem a rather knee-jerk and immature reaction to getting angry - the kind of thing my 11 year old son does when he is thwarted in something important to him (though in his case the outburst is usually directed against objects rather than people - not that I let feel him it is acceptable behaviour, however). Having recently reread The Satanic Bible cover-to-cover I can't recall Dr LaVey condoning actual physical violence towards another, except in self defense. I think one needs to be careful about interpreting/twisting Dr LaVey's writings to justify one's own shortcomings or whims!
_________________________
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#150441 - 03/14/06 05:56 AM Silence as a Source of Information [Re: BEHERIT]
Quiddity Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 2021
Loc: CA
Silence is always a poor source of information. I am curious about this user for obvious reasons.

I have looked through all the posts on this thread, and reviewed all of this user's posts. Since he has not replied to any of them, I thought I'd take a cruise through the data and see what I can gather about this user, and what can be either pieced together or inferred from his current discussions. I certainly do not think of anything I have written below as FACT. It is nothing more than surmise, but since there is nothing coming back from him, I feel guessing is still a valid tool.

From what I gather, I would expect he--and it is a he, I'm pretty sure, is probably an introspective, yet explosive late teen, early twenties, speaks english as a second language--yet is more fluent verbally than in writing and for want of precision in terms, tends to over-dramatize ideas which have a natural gravity. He probably lives/lived on a farm which probably helped shape his antithesis to eating meat, which he has not done in a long enough period of time to expect it would cause a differential immunity issue. Raised by xian parents who subjected him to the typically excessive stifling treatment they are known for, it appears they have evoked a strong and understandable sense of hostility in him. I expect being subjected to such a regimented upbringing, it is highly likely he is seeking the structure of a compatible system. I would guess that although it is possible he might be on the brink of taking some type of hostile action, the profile of his post seems to match the curiosity style of his other posts, wherein he is seeking to typify those whom he is identifying with.

True-sounding is no guarantee, but I would expect he is simply trying to determine his policies rather than whether or not to do harm. I get the sense that he tends to think through things more clearly than he writes them, and is a long-time veteran of loneliness and thinking things through for himself--usually coming to responsible decisions, but of a tendency to see supportive activities as "stepping-stones" rather than the beginnings of friendship.

I hope he takes the advice presented on this thread. If it is guidance he is seeking, it's all here for him. Here's hoping he takes the opportunity to avail himself of the wisdom herein, and let's us know how he is faring.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
Obscurum per Obscurius: Ignotum per Ignotius.

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#150444 - 03/14/06 10:29 AM Re: I disagree. Count to 10. [Re: Nemo]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Good insight, Magister.

It may be a bit advanced for Beherit, but it's a useful lesson, all the same.

That being said, I'm actually going to agree in part with Uncleherpe. There are instances when something truly outrageous happens, and really, there's no good reason for it to have happened.

There are things worth getting frustrated about, and, from personal experience, there are things that will continue to irritate or upset you in some manner, no matter how you rationalize it or what constructed narrative you place on top of it. (Or, you'll spend more time trying to re-shape or re-define the emotion than you would've if you had allowed yourself a full emotional catharsis.)

If someone pisses on my carpet, I'm not going to nonchalantly consider it just a random event of reality. I'm going to assume that wanting a carpet that isn't pissed on deliberately is more-or-less a reasonable expectation for reality. I'm going to be annoyed, angry, and perplexed.

Emotions are part of the human experience, and they can be useful, if channeled properly.

The key is, what are you going to do with your emotion, and what are you going to do about the situation that upset you? That's where your insight comes in. It may be appropriate to get angry, at least initially, but staying angry is another matter, especially if that anger prevents you from dealing with the situation effectively. There's a point at which you do finally have to say, "My expectation didn't match reality," and use that to cool down, and plan your next move (which may involve cleaning the carpet).
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#150445 - 03/14/06 11:52 AM Re: Rational Anger [Re: uncleherpe]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Well, I will simply disagree with this. I can, in fact, choose not to get angry about you pissing on my carpet. I may choose to get angry, but I certainly am able to make that choice. If for some reason it was not to my benefit to get angry about it, I could choose not give you the power to evoke that emotion in me. I could just take steps to make you pay in some way for your action, but I don't have to necessarily get angry to do that.

As I said, I have controlled my emotions many times. I will continue to control them when I see the benefit in doing so.

I think Magister Nemo has explained it very well, as usual, and there is nothing more for me to add.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#150446 - 03/14/06 12:55 PM Re: Rational Anger [Re: dragondancer]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

Well, I will simply disagree with this. I can, in fact, choose not to get angry about you pissing on my carpet. I may choose to get angry, but I certainly am able to make that choice. If for some reason it was not to my benefit to get angry about it, I could choose not give you the power to evoke that emotion in me. I could just take steps to make you pay in some way for your action, but I don't have to necessarily get angry to do that.

As I said, I have controlled my emotions many times. I will continue to control them when I see the benefit in doing so.

I think Magister Nemo has explained it very well, as usual, and there is nothing more for me to add.


Hail Satan!





when I hear this its generally from someone who has never gone through anything thats really tough. People are not emotionless robots who choose what they feel. They react to their enviroments, no one can just be their core and remain completely unnafected by others, especially if you are already emotionally invested in a situation or a person and shit hits the fan. If everyone could just choose how they felt all the time there would be no need for ritual or art or anything at all.

there is a certain level of choice in emotion, but to act like its TOTAL is just plain silly. When youve been traumatized or lost someone the choice lies in how you deal with it.

If there werent negetive emotional consequences to things people would not grow or change, they would not learn from their choices or experiences.
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#150447 - 03/14/06 03:54 PM Re: Rational Anger [Re: uncleherpe]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

when I hear this its generally from someone who has never gone through anything thats really tough. People are not emotionless robots who choose what they feel. They react to their enviroments, no one can just be their core and remain completely unnafected by others, especially if you are already emotionally invested in a situation or a person and shit hits the fan. If everyone could just choose how they felt all the time there would be no need for ritual or art or anything at all.

there is a certain level of choice in emotion, but to act like its TOTAL is just plain silly. When youve been traumatized or lost someone the choice lies in how you deal with it.

If there werent negetive emotional consequences to things people would not grow or change, they would not learn from their choices or experiences.




In the forty-eight years that I have inhabited this earth, I assure you I have not lived in a bubble. In fact, it has been during the toughest times in my life that I have learned when to let go and when to control my emotions. These are the very lessons that give you practice and teach you how to control your emotions.

Just raising children is an inherent lesson in controlling emotion believe me. Many times I wanted to be very angry at my offspring but knew that it would not be to anyone's benefit.

Again, sometimes it is in your best interest to change the emotion that you would normally feel to some other emotion. It is possible to do. I do not say that I am an emotionless robot, most of the time I feel my emotions freely and act upon them as freely. I am only saying that you do not have to be a slave to those emotions. I have lost many people close to me in my life, including my first born child. I did not and would not control the emotion that I felt at that time. What would be the point?

I am only saying (again) that it is possible to control your emotions, not that you should control every emotion you ever have. Now that would be silly and very detrimental to your well being!

Any further discussion on my part is just repeating what I have already said several times.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#150448 - 03/14/06 04:35 PM Re: Rational Anger [Re: dragondancer]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Truly learning how to shape and channel your emotions and attitudes takes practice. You have to make a point of going in, challenging the emotions or reactions you want to change, and actively replacing them with new rationales, which lead to the creation of new emotions.

Still agreeing with Uncleherpe that some situations are so pissy, you can't help but feel a spark of anger, sadness, frustration, confusion, anxiety, or what have you. From there, you can look at the emotion and re-shape it by reforming your opinion of it, and you can (and should) make a plan of how to respond. Over time, you can increasingly train your reflexive emotions to respond in certain ways, but some reflexes are, more or less, what they are.

In the end, however, you can always choose how you are going to respond to a given situation, and what you are going to do about it.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#150450 - 03/14/06 04:54 PM Re: Rational Anger [Re: uncleherpe]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
As Magister Nemo pointed out, clinical research has shown it is possible to control the urge associated with primary emotion.

Experience is not always reality.

The science of physics is a beautiful example of this point.

Sometimes opinion and experience can lead us wrong.

It's going to happen. But when objective research and evidence can be put forth to show that we are wrong, it's within our best interests to accept it.

Authoritative claims have no place without the proper evidence.

Realistically a few anecdotes are not sufficient to build a case.

Don't think that I'm attacking you because I'm not.

I'm just offering some friendly advice.
_________________________






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#150451 - 03/14/06 04:55 PM Re: resource [Re: Poetaster]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Albert Ellis in his own way deals with anger in a book by the same title as I recall.

The issue of identity is subsumed within Ellis' concepts but someday I will write my own book.

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#150452 - 03/14/06 04:57 PM Re: resource [Re: Nemo]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:

but someday I will write my own book.




I'd like to place my order in advance.
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#150453 - 03/14/06 05:01 PM You get the Nemo Support Award! [Re: Quiddity]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Since you agree with me that makes you a good person!

More seriously, thank you for the compliment.

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#150454 - 03/14/06 05:21 PM Re:Appropriate (useful) versus inapproapriate [Re: TrojZyr]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

I'm going to be annoyed, angry, and perplexed.




Maybe.

Your assumptions are overall not incorrect and you probably know your reaction far better than I can guess.

Annoyed and perplexed would be appropriate but anger would not help you in this case.

The key is to not confuse appropriate emotions that can be useful to you with inappropriate emotions that can only screw things up for you.

Frustration can be a strong and motivating emotion. It is often (though not always) an appropriate emotional response. Frustrated people have killed people. Anger is not necessary to “justify” strong responses.

It is appropriate to feel frustration when your desires are thwarted. However if your expectations are unrealistic (and you are therefore ignoring the Balance Factor) then frustration is stemming from neurotic nonsense you have internalized and are telling yourself.

For example, I would agree that it is appropriate to feel frustrated and annoyed (and perplexed!) if someone enters your home and deliberately pisses on your carpet.

It would become inappropriate if you invited them back and they did it again!

To become angry at the first incidence requires that you had to demand that this person should not have done this.

But they already did it!.

Anger always requires that demand.

Frustration when your desires are not met by reality is often appropriate.

Anger is a last ditch emotion to fight for your life when just about everything else has failed. It might work if you are lucky.

Otherwise, anger is almost always prompted by neurotic misjudgments about reality and only causes you more, not fewer, problems.

By the way, this will not make sense to the person who wants to justify their angry responses to something.

Anger does end rational thinking almost always.

It can be controlled however and it can be reduced as well.

But that requires right effort to accomplish.

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#150455 - 03/14/06 05:29 PM Re: resource [Re: Nemo]
DataLore Offline


Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3
"51 new and used copies - available from $0.12"

Not bad!

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#150456 - 03/14/06 05:35 PM Anger that "must" happen [Re: uncleherpe]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

When youve been traumatized or lost someone the choice lies in how you deal with it.




Your assumption is that some events always require anger.

Reminds me of the fellow who didn’t know if he should laugh or cry when his brand new car went off a cliff with his mother-in-law!

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#150457 - 03/14/06 05:37 PM Re: resource [Re: DataLore]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Try abe.com for better choices. Amazon often doesn't have the old used books in stock. Be careful there.

Also remember libraries!

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#150458 - 03/14/06 05:40 PM Re:Appropriate (useful) versus inapproapriate [Re: Nemo]
Dak Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 332
Loc: Somewhere else
Quote:

For example, I would agree that it is appropriate to feel frustrated and annoyed (and perplexed!) if someone enters your home and deliberately pisses on your carpet.
It would become inappropriate if you invited them back and they did it again! To become angry at the first incidence requires that you had to demand that this person should not have done this.

But they already did it!.
Anger always requires that demand.




I think I'm missing something here. If someone pissed on my carpet I would be pissed. Are you saying that people are not to be expected to know and show common decency, understanding that common sense is rather uncommon? I don't think this is what you mean, but the demand assumes that everything needs to be spoon fed to the world. As in "Please don't be an idiot or I will get annoyed. Anger may not be the best response, but can be merited for some instances. Can you clarify the, "Anger always requires that demand" part, please.


Edited by LordDak (03/14/06 05:44 PM)
_________________________
"High proof ye now have given to be the race of Satan, for I glory in the name Antagonist of heaven's almighty king, amply have merited of me of all Th'infernal empire that so near heaven's door triumphal with triumphal act have met, mine with this glorious work, and made one realm, Hell and this world one realm, one contintent of easy thoroughfare." - Satan, Paradise Lost

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#150459 - 03/14/06 05:55 PM Re:Appropriate (useful) versus inapproapriate [Re: Dak]
Neko Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 798
Quote:

If someone pissed on my carpet I would be pissed.





Seriously though, being angry is a response that you elected to have, not one that was forced upon you. Some people happen to be into that sort of thing, and they would not be "pissed" I think that goes to show that it's the response we have to stimuli that leads to the emotions and not the actions themselves leading to the emotions.

I heard a good quote that relates to this that explains my thoughts:

Quote:

He who angers you, controls you.




Allowing someone to direct your emotions gives them controll over you. If you want to manipulate people to doing what you want, the easiest way is through their emotions.
_________________________
I am a Vampire.

The Temple | The Elite

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#150460 - 03/14/06 06:34 PM "I'm mad as hell and won't take it anymore!" [Re: Dak]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Cognitive behavioral theory would suggest that somewhere, sometime you learned that carpet-pissing should make you feel anger.

You see one of those damned carpet-pissers come into your abode and do it and – faster than lightening – you tell yourself “He shouldn’t have done that! This is unacceptable! This is inexcusable! This is evil! I can’t stand it! I won’t stand it!”

You know the routine.

If you don’t, then just unravel what you had to say to yourself to get you mad. Simply say “That made me get mad because…”

You’ll find the words them. Trust me. They are always there if you look for them.

So I don’t think there is a “carpet-pissing” instinctive anger response since there was probably a time before maybe cavemen even had carpets.

Anger doesn't just happen somehow like lunar eclipses or snowstorms.

This idea flies in the face of a world filled with people who never really mature, never grow up but live out the scripts they absorbed through osmosis in growing up.

They usually can point to outbursts of anger that have created untold damage in their lives, but will still justify these reactions as “natural” or “impossible to control”.

“It made me angry” is the theme song.

Of course, the evidence does not support this view.

Please understand I am not debating the what. This isn’t an issue of “right” or “wrong”.

Context is everything.

It is entirely an issue of questioning whether to not anger is an “act of God” or if somehow you have learned to choose that response.

The mind is a funny machine. The more it goes down a route of thinking and acting the more automatic those thoughts and actions become.

Eventually they can become so automatic that we lose awareness of what we are doing and we call this “unconscious”.

Actually it isn’t “unconscious”.

It’s just damned fast.

Many people justify whatever the hell they do by “explaining” that “I lost my temper” or “I just got mad”.

They believe that some things “just make me mad”.

Careful self-examination undercuts this belief.

Tougher still is the belief that anger is a good thing. Usually that proves to not be the case.

It is not likely that many people will live long enough to grow up and overcome most of the stupid triggers that make them go ape shit stupid (angry) but that’s another issue.

Almost any popular book by Albert Ellis goes into the kind of stories people learn to tell themselves to choose anger when they don’t have to.

For myself, I never argue with someone that anger is usually self-defeating. I figure if they live long enough they’ll probably figure it out for themselves … or not.

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#150461 - 03/14/06 06:41 PM Re:Appropriate (useful) versus inapproapriate [Re: Neko]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

I heard a good quote that relates to this that explains my thoughts:

Quote:

He who angers you, controls you.




Allowing someone to direct your emotions gives them controll[sic] over you. If you want to manipulate people to doing what you want, the easiest way is through their emotions.




Exactly. I have had much experience over my lifetime with someone who perpetually did this to me, so I learned over the years not to allow it anymore. Not to give that person, or persons the power to control me through my emotions.


Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#150462 - 03/14/06 06:44 PM Re:"He who angers you, controls you." [Re: Neko]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Oooh. That's sneaky.

Pretty soon you'll be suggesting that controlling your own emotions can enable you to manipulate people like puppets on strings.

Oh damn.

I think you did say that.

Well now I'll just go get mad now.

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#150463 - 03/14/06 06:57 PM Re: "I'm mad as hell and won't take it anymore!" [Re: Nemo]
Mr_Atrox Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1814
Loc: Lycopolis
Quote:

Tougher still is the belief that anger is a good thing. Usually that proves to not be the case.




A vestigial emotion, perhaps?
_________________________
"If you wanna hurt me, you're gonna have to earn it motherfucker."
-Mickey Rourke

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#150464 - 03/14/06 07:09 PM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
I'll tell you a little story. When I was younger, I was much less in control of my emotions than I am now. I would get depressed, I would get angry. These emotions threatened to overwelm me and were begining to become detrimental to my life. Then the reality of things dawned on me, and I realized that I am not my emotions! I began to detach myself from these emotions that threatened my safety and sanity, and without any therapy, medication, 12 step programs, imaginary friends, or any of the rest of it, I moved on to better things. You are not your emotions. Sure I still get frustrated, sad, and all the rest of it. But it is in its proper context now, I am not controlled. If you are truely a Satanist, then you will understand what I am telling you and stop acting like a child/slave/cow.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#150465 - 03/14/06 09:50 PM Re: Rational Anger [Re: dragondancer]
Barb Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 587
Quote:

Quote:


Usually when you get angry, it is when someone or something else MAKES you feel that way.




No one can make you feel something, you allow it to happen. If you don't allow the anger to manifest in the first place you won't act upon it.


Hail Satan!



That is usually the case, but I was making reference to when anger is the initial reaction.

Anger is a natural human reaction. You REACT, but it is up to you whether or not you want to BE angry about what you reacted to. There is a difference between GETTING angry by reaction and BEING angry for an amount of time.
_________________________
"... it is much more gratifying to change your own world than the whole world." ~Magistra Ygraine

"Life is the great indulgence-death the great abstinence. Therefore, make the most of life-here and now!" ~Anton Szandor LaVey

"The true test of anyone's worth as a living creature is how much he can utilize what he has." ~Anton Szandor LaVey

"Twenty percent of your priorities will give you 80 percent of your production, IF you spend your time, energy, money, and personnel on the top 20 percent of your priorities." ~The Pareto Principle, as stated by John C. Maxwell

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#150466 - 03/15/06 12:26 AM Re:Appropriate (useful) versus inapproapriate [Re: Nemo]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Frustration can be a strong and motivating emotion. It is often (though not always) an appropriate emotional response. Frustrated people have killed people. Anger is not necessary to “justify” strong responses.

It is appropriate to feel frustration when your desires are thwarted. However if your expectations are unrealistic (and you are therefore ignoring the Balance Factor) then frustration is stemming from neurotic nonsense you have internalized and are telling yourself.


Completely agreed there. We're on exactly the same page on this point.

I think I understand better what you mean, and why you think anger is unproductive.

When angry, people seethe, dwell, "bubble," and "steam" over the same issue---or, they explode wildly, and get themselves in trouble. Certainly, I've been there, and while it may be cathartic at the beginning, it steadily and increasingly becomes unproductive and draining.
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#150468 - 03/15/06 05:57 AM Re: Rational Anger [Re: Barb]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

Anger is a natural human reaction. You REACT, but it is up to you whether or not you want to BE angry about what you reacted to. There is a difference between GETTING angry by reaction and BEING angry for an amount of time.




Yes. I would not argue that point at all.


Hail Satan!
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#150469 - 03/15/06 06:53 AM Re:Appropriate (useful) versus inapproapriate [Re: Nemo]
DarkApollyon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 581
Loc: Brighton, England
Quote:

anger is almost always prompted by neurotic misjudgments about reality and only causes you more, not fewer, problems.





This reminds me of something one of my old meditation teachers used to repeat quite regularly - What one needs in most situations is a wider perspective (on the issue) and a sense of humour.

Sure beats giving oneself stomach ulcers from too much internalised unresolved anger.....

Seriously, I'd just like to add how wise and thought provoking Magister Nemo's posts have been in this thread (as usual), and that I've found them a joy to read.
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#150470 - 03/15/06 04:15 PM Re: Anger that "must" happen [Re: Nemo]
uncleherpe Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 499
Quote:

Quote:

When youve been traumatized or lost someone the choice lies in how you deal with it.




Your assumption is that some events always require anger.

Reminds me of the fellow who didn’t know if he should laugh or cry when his brand new car went off a cliff with his mother-in-law!




There are things that are truly horrible, unbelievable, and cause anger. Crime does this a lot, people who have had their life savings stolen, been raped, had their children killed, ect. You would have to be insane to feel no anger after going through something that bad. There are circumstances where you cannot choose how you feel.
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#150471 - 03/15/06 04:18 PM Re: Anger that "must" happen [Re: uncleherpe]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Again, you make the assumption that everyone will feel the same as you do.

It's called solipsism and it can be tricky.
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#150472 - 03/15/06 05:33 PM Re: Anger that "must" happen [Re: uncleherpe]
Neko Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 798
My sister-in-law was raped. Right as he finished, he told her that she would most likely have genital warts. She was not angry. She was confused, depressed, and wondered how she was going to go on with her life. She was not angry. Would anger have been appropriate? I think so. Is it an absolute response? No it isn't.
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#150473 - 03/15/06 10:07 PM Re: There is a deeper assumption. [Re: Poetaster]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
The deeper assumption is that things "cause" anger.

The evidence is that people learn when to react to anger.

Albert Ellis drew from the observations of Greek Stoic philosophers like Epictitus who remarked that things do not upset us but it is what we tell ourselves about things that upset up (or words to that effect). (I could not recall yesterday his sources but now I remember).

The poor bastard who is ridden by guilt and is then beaten and robbed may feel deserving of punishment and possibly feel even better, rather than angry after the beating.

Emotions do not just happen. They are learned.

That is what the clinical evidence points to.

I would underline the fact that those who pretend to themselves that emotions cannot be chosen or controlled, will never feel they have to try do so.

They can, of course, go to "Emotion-holics Anonymous" and declare "I am powerless over my emotions!"

But that path does not lead to self control. It leads only to excuses.

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#150474 - 03/15/06 10:11 PM Re:Appropriate (useful) versus inapproapriate [Re: TrojZyr]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

Certainly, I've been there...




All of us have.

Some of us learn.

Recognizing that anger is not an uncontrollable primal force of nature is the first step in having more control over it.

Otherwise we end up mouthing such things as "The Devil (anger) made me do it!"

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#150475 - 03/15/06 10:13 PM Re:Appropriate (useful) versus inapproapriate [Re: DarkApollyon]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Thanks for the kind comments.

You can "read all about it" in Albert Ellis's many, many books, however.

I didn't invent it but, like any good tool, I'm pleased to pass it along!

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#150476 - 03/15/06 10:18 PM Re: "vestigial emotion" [Re: Mr_Atrox]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
More usually just a rationalization.

To have to admit that you create and choose anger is to be willing to be responsible for it.

And that is dangerous territory for a large percentage of the human species!

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#150477 - 03/15/06 10:36 PM Re: There is a deeper assumption. [Re: Nemo]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
It's like you said last night, primary and secondary emotional reactions often coincide, however, the primary is not a necessitative of the secondary.

Taking that even further, I think that being cognitively aware of the factors necessary to elicit the primary function can make it possible to negate it all together.

To support your theory even further is the observable nature of a newborn.

Newborns are not born into the world with instinctual triggers related to societal standards.

A newborn wouldn't know that he/she was 'required' to feel anger, disgust, frustration, fear, envy, hatred or any other emotion for that matter.

All cues are learned behaviour through experience, expectation and cultural demand.

But I digress, we agree and this was just some rambling on my part.
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#150478 - 03/15/06 11:16 PM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
gypsy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
Once you realize that you yourself have created the anger and are willing to do something about it the responsible thing to do would be to start learning a little self control. You may want to practice some deep breathing techniques this can keep you focused and in control, thereby helping to separate yourself from the emotion and understand that you have the power to do so.

It is still always a good idea to know self defense.
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#150479 - 03/16/06 01:33 AM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
Mjollnir Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1416
Loc: Gone
Violence is counter-productive and does not solve your problems. Losing control only weakens you. What is to be gained from this? Is hurting another and/or yourself a solution to your undisciplined emotions? Does prison and/or lawsuits sound like an attractive bargain?

What is the point?

What benefits you?

What is the gain?

Anger is better suited for the Ritual Chamber, where it can be utilized to effect changes that will not come down upon you in a negative way. Even then, it should be justified anger.. for justice.

Wanton anger, in my opinion is weakness. I've been there. That road leads to nowhere.

Work on your powers of manipulation to control those who cause you anger. Be the master of your emotions, not a slave to them.

Then you may realize that most humans are not important enough to waste such vital energy on. The energy you waste on them could be applied to achieving your own happiness.

Anger is just a point before your eyes.

Of course, I am also probably wasting my energy here on you, seeing that you are not replying to anyone who has answered your thread. I shouldn't bother at all, but perhaps my reply will benefit others reading this thread.
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#150480 - 03/19/06 09:46 PM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
DeLamar_J Offline


Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 124
Loc: Ohio
Quote:

The strongest instinct in every living creature is self preservation,which brings us to the last of the seven deadly sins-ANGER.Is it not our instinct for self preservation that is aroused when someone harms us,when we become angry enough to protect ourselves from further attack?A Satanist practices the motto,"If a man smite thee on one cheek, smash him on the other!"Let no wrong go unredressed.Be as a lion in the path-be dangerous even in defeat!

I am feeling angry and i dont deal with it well.How does a Satanist deal with it.I usually get violent.I am a Satanist and this is keeping in step with the Satanic bible. Violence is condoned even promoted by The Doktor.Isnt it hypocritical to call urself a Satanist and be anti- violence?




You need to find a constructive way to unleash your anger. Martial arts does the trick for me, others can write and feel better. Just find a constuctive outlet, instead of a criminal one.


Edited by DeLamar_J (03/19/06 09:47 PM)
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#150481 - 03/19/06 09:54 PM Re: Violence [Re: BEHERIT]
DeLamar_J Offline


Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 124
Loc: Ohio
You may also find my post I made a while back called a lesson learned. Here is the link

http://www.satannet.com/lttd/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=317124&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
_________________________
An insincere and evil friend is more to be feared than a wild beast; a wild beast may wound your body, but an evil friend will wound your mind. My personal web page---> http://www.myspace.com/39440105

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