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#166448 - 05/26/06 09:05 PM I can't take it anymore!
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
I've read quite a few posts about the whole life after death issue in Satanism. One thing that people bring up every single time the discussion comes up is that energy is never created nor destroyed, so it must go somewhere. I can't stand this argument since it uses a very limited knowledge of physics to cover up complete ignorance of physiology. What happens to the energy when you die? Well, first let's examine the basis of this "live energy."
Most cells in the body use ATP as an energy source for anything. The electrical activity in your brain and nerves? The result of charge differentials created by the sodium-potassium pumps in neurons which are powered by ATP. And where does ATP come from? The metabolism of carbohydrates, fats, and protiens which we ingest.
So what happens to this energy when we die? Pretty simple. The blood stops flowing. Your cells no longer have access to ATP, so they're unable to maintain homeostasis and die. One by one you die on a cellular level due to this lack of vital energy. The energy doesn't actually go anywhere. It's all there in the chemical bonds of your carbohydrates, fat, and protein, but without the circulatory system there is no way to move stuff around and metabolise it.
There is no net gain or loss of energy when a person dies. Nothing happens to your electrical activity in your brain. The charge potential cannot be maintained without the ATP. There is no mystery there. No supernatural nature to this "life energy." Physical death is physical death, plain and simple.

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#166449 - 05/26/06 10:08 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Psychotherapeut Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 456
I'm aware of ATP and cellular metabolism. I personally don't care one way or the other, if your bio-electricity moves out of your body into the atmosphere, your body stops generating and neutralizes, it's all pretty inconsequential... I think what I was trying to get across personally, was that in keeping within the concepts of physics, it passes on somewhere... Even if that somewhere is cell death, and being consumed and metabolized by another life form... I don't know if my post was one you found any particular with, but figured I'd reply...

HS!
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#166450 - 05/26/06 10:10 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Achilles Offline


Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 223
Most are referring to a different type of "energy." More like bioenergy. I doubt such a metaphysical concept can fit into traditional physics concepts. Another annoying thing I often hear is some spiritualist who tries to "prove" reincarnation by using physics concepts like "energy" not being destroyed. This mixture is nonsensical.
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard

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#166451 - 05/26/06 10:56 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Achilles]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
This bioenergy would be a soul then. A form of underlying life energy unprovable by conventional science. The idea that a soul passes on is just fine. Many people believe that. People need to stop deluding themselves into thinking that just because they use a synonym that they're talking about something completely different. It just bothers me when people evoke and misuse the laws of thermodynamics to "prove" the unprovable.

The energy you speak of seems like a remnant of vitalism, the belief that something that comes from a living organism has special properties. They've demonstrated that Calcium Oxide made in a lab and that found in a sea shell is identical in all ways, but people still cling to this idea. Merketers love to prey on people who believe in vitalism when they use the phrase "all natural." By the time you purify it, concentrate it, and package it in a pill it's not really natural anymore now is it? May as well go for the lab made stuff.
By the way, I don't mean to come across as hostile. These are just some issues that have annoyed me for years.

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#166452 - 05/27/06 12:29 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10562
Loc: England
Some people believe that through consciously applied effort it is possible to maintain their astral bodies after death.

I do not doubt the reality of out of body experiences.

But I have always maintained that this astral body still draws its energy from the living physical body (our own).

The mind still draws the ability to operate from the living physical body.

Death is the end! Full stop. And there is no scientific evidence to prove otherwise. Simply hopes beliefs and delusions.
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"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#166453 - 05/27/06 12:47 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Your mind (brain) controls that energy, by whatever name you wish to call it (astral, spirit or soul). Your brain is responsible for dreams, outer body experiences, ESP etc. The power of the mind is great and can be exercised to do these things while you are alive. Once your brain shuts down through the process of death it's all over. Your consciousness cannot exist without your brain. There is no proof that shows otherwise. I really don't understand the confusion with the other posts.


Edited by Carkosa (05/27/06 12:49 AM)

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#166454 - 05/27/06 02:23 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>Physical death is physical death, plain and simple.

And that is all that needs to be said.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#166455 - 05/27/06 02:27 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Discipline]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Agreed. Death is death and why question it? You won't be conscious to validate it after your own death. Just embrace your life and quite wasting it contemplating the end. There are many other more beneficial and intriguing subjects in life to contemplate. Why spend it dwelling on the end?

Hail Satan!

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#166456 - 05/27/06 02:36 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Mr_47]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
By my statement I did not say you should not question death. I simply was pointing out that the end of your life is the end, period. No refunds and no returns.

Why not spend a few minutes figuring out how to avoid death so you can have countless years to enjoy the other pleasures of life?

Hail Life!
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#166457 - 05/27/06 02:45 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Discipline]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Again you make a good point. I did not mean to taint your message. I just feel that you shouldn't dump assloads of your time into it. Eventually, even if you prolong it, you will die. Accept it, it happens. If you can prolong life, more power to you. After all, life is embraced by Satanism. But in the end, it is the end.

HS!

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#166458 - 05/27/06 09:15 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Mr_47]
Cholinergic Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 888
Loc: UK
Survival is the highest law - why not resist death with everything you have?
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Yes, I named myself after a neurotransmitter

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#166459 - 05/27/06 09:27 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
Agreed, and it is a point I've attempted to drive home.

Energy is not static; in fact, it prefers to spread itself out whenever possible. That's one reason why your body must produce lots of new energy constantly, hence why you must eat. Once your body ceases function, its energy will be redistributed. Bodily energy does not intrinsically hold itself together just because you'd really like it to. When you die, you die, and you'll be food for things that live (or a miniscule producer of heat for a brief period if you are prevented from being consumed).

People who dislike the idea of dying should toss out their occultnik books and get a gym membership.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#166460 - 05/27/06 09:41 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Cholinergic Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 888
Loc: UK
I would add that it is not energy that makes life exist, it is the structure of a living organism. If your cells get imbalanced and can't metabolise you die. If your heart can't pump blood round your body, you die. However, after you die there's still chemical energy all over the place (and even still metabolism in there for up to a week in most cases). What is not there once you're truly dead is structure.

My laptop has energy in it, but if I smash it to pieces then regardless of how much energy in the battery i'm unlikely to be using it anytime soon. And if I smashed it up and then threw the harddisk into a vat of acid it would be totally gone.
_________________________
Yes, I named myself after a neurotransmitter

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#166461 - 05/27/06 07:57 PM Unprovable assumptions. [Re: Mr_47]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12494
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I agree that attention to your life now is where the goodies are.

I also suggest that there are many things you can do and refrain from doing that will probably increase your lifespan.

However then I read this:

Quote:

You won't be conscious to validate it after your own death.




And exactly how can you know if that is true either?

There is so much that the current paradigm claims to know but does not know.

Substituting one belief system for another is pointless. It is no better than swapping superstitions.

Actually there is a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence that denies the simplicity of your suggested view.

That doesn't mean you are wrong.

If you make claims that cannot be proven however then it is pretty hard to be right.

I would simply suggest a different way to consider these topics.

If someone says "You do survive death" then ask them how they know this is true.

Judge their evidence procedure.

Please don't just say "I know if I am dead I will not exist" because then someone can reasonably ask you, "How can you know that?"

See what I mean?

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#166462 - 05/27/06 08:07 PM Re: Unprovable assumptions. [Re: Nemo]
Achilles Offline


Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 223
Quote:

I also suggest that there are many things you can do and refrain from doing that will probably increase your lifespan.




Speaking of increasing youth and lifespan, how do you have such a young voice? I heard you before on an interview.

A bit off topic.
_________________________
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard

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