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#166448 - 05/26/06 09:05 PM I can't take it anymore!
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
I've read quite a few posts about the whole life after death issue in Satanism. One thing that people bring up every single time the discussion comes up is that energy is never created nor destroyed, so it must go somewhere. I can't stand this argument since it uses a very limited knowledge of physics to cover up complete ignorance of physiology. What happens to the energy when you die? Well, first let's examine the basis of this "live energy."
Most cells in the body use ATP as an energy source for anything. The electrical activity in your brain and nerves? The result of charge differentials created by the sodium-potassium pumps in neurons which are powered by ATP. And where does ATP come from? The metabolism of carbohydrates, fats, and protiens which we ingest.
So what happens to this energy when we die? Pretty simple. The blood stops flowing. Your cells no longer have access to ATP, so they're unable to maintain homeostasis and die. One by one you die on a cellular level due to this lack of vital energy. The energy doesn't actually go anywhere. It's all there in the chemical bonds of your carbohydrates, fat, and protein, but without the circulatory system there is no way to move stuff around and metabolise it.
There is no net gain or loss of energy when a person dies. Nothing happens to your electrical activity in your brain. The charge potential cannot be maintained without the ATP. There is no mystery there. No supernatural nature to this "life energy." Physical death is physical death, plain and simple.

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#166449 - 05/26/06 10:08 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Psychotherapeut Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 456
I'm aware of ATP and cellular metabolism. I personally don't care one way or the other, if your bio-electricity moves out of your body into the atmosphere, your body stops generating and neutralizes, it's all pretty inconsequential... I think what I was trying to get across personally, was that in keeping within the concepts of physics, it passes on somewhere... Even if that somewhere is cell death, and being consumed and metabolized by another life form... I don't know if my post was one you found any particular with, but figured I'd reply...

HS!
_________________________
Mein Leben, Meine Chance

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#166450 - 05/26/06 10:10 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Achilles Offline


Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 223
Most are referring to a different type of "energy." More like bioenergy. I doubt such a metaphysical concept can fit into traditional physics concepts. Another annoying thing I often hear is some spiritualist who tries to "prove" reincarnation by using physics concepts like "energy" not being destroyed. This mixture is nonsensical.
_________________________
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard

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#166451 - 05/26/06 10:56 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Achilles]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
This bioenergy would be a soul then. A form of underlying life energy unprovable by conventional science. The idea that a soul passes on is just fine. Many people believe that. People need to stop deluding themselves into thinking that just because they use a synonym that they're talking about something completely different. It just bothers me when people evoke and misuse the laws of thermodynamics to "prove" the unprovable.

The energy you speak of seems like a remnant of vitalism, the belief that something that comes from a living organism has special properties. They've demonstrated that Calcium Oxide made in a lab and that found in a sea shell is identical in all ways, but people still cling to this idea. Merketers love to prey on people who believe in vitalism when they use the phrase "all natural." By the time you purify it, concentrate it, and package it in a pill it's not really natural anymore now is it? May as well go for the lab made stuff.
By the way, I don't mean to come across as hostile. These are just some issues that have annoyed me for years.

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#166452 - 05/27/06 12:29 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10562
Loc: England
Some people believe that through consciously applied effort it is possible to maintain their astral bodies after death.

I do not doubt the reality of out of body experiences.

But I have always maintained that this astral body still draws its energy from the living physical body (our own).

The mind still draws the ability to operate from the living physical body.

Death is the end! Full stop. And there is no scientific evidence to prove otherwise. Simply hopes beliefs and delusions.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#166453 - 05/27/06 12:47 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Your mind (brain) controls that energy, by whatever name you wish to call it (astral, spirit or soul). Your brain is responsible for dreams, outer body experiences, ESP etc. The power of the mind is great and can be exercised to do these things while you are alive. Once your brain shuts down through the process of death it's all over. Your consciousness cannot exist without your brain. There is no proof that shows otherwise. I really don't understand the confusion with the other posts.


Edited by Carkosa (05/27/06 12:49 AM)

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#166454 - 05/27/06 02:23 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>Physical death is physical death, plain and simple.

And that is all that needs to be said.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#166455 - 05/27/06 02:27 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Discipline]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Agreed. Death is death and why question it? You won't be conscious to validate it after your own death. Just embrace your life and quite wasting it contemplating the end. There are many other more beneficial and intriguing subjects in life to contemplate. Why spend it dwelling on the end?

Hail Satan!

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#166456 - 05/27/06 02:36 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Mr_47]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
By my statement I did not say you should not question death. I simply was pointing out that the end of your life is the end, period. No refunds and no returns.

Why not spend a few minutes figuring out how to avoid death so you can have countless years to enjoy the other pleasures of life?

Hail Life!
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#166457 - 05/27/06 02:45 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Discipline]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Again you make a good point. I did not mean to taint your message. I just feel that you shouldn't dump assloads of your time into it. Eventually, even if you prolong it, you will die. Accept it, it happens. If you can prolong life, more power to you. After all, life is embraced by Satanism. But in the end, it is the end.

HS!

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#166458 - 05/27/06 09:15 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Mr_47]
Cholinergic Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 888
Loc: UK
Survival is the highest law - why not resist death with everything you have?
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Yes, I named myself after a neurotransmitter

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#166459 - 05/27/06 09:27 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10119
Agreed, and it is a point I've attempted to drive home.

Energy is not static; in fact, it prefers to spread itself out whenever possible. That's one reason why your body must produce lots of new energy constantly, hence why you must eat. Once your body ceases function, its energy will be redistributed. Bodily energy does not intrinsically hold itself together just because you'd really like it to. When you die, you die, and you'll be food for things that live (or a miniscule producer of heat for a brief period if you are prevented from being consumed).

People who dislike the idea of dying should toss out their occultnik books and get a gym membership.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#166460 - 05/27/06 09:41 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Cholinergic Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 888
Loc: UK
I would add that it is not energy that makes life exist, it is the structure of a living organism. If your cells get imbalanced and can't metabolise you die. If your heart can't pump blood round your body, you die. However, after you die there's still chemical energy all over the place (and even still metabolism in there for up to a week in most cases). What is not there once you're truly dead is structure.

My laptop has energy in it, but if I smash it to pieces then regardless of how much energy in the battery i'm unlikely to be using it anytime soon. And if I smashed it up and then threw the harddisk into a vat of acid it would be totally gone.
_________________________
Yes, I named myself after a neurotransmitter

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#166461 - 05/27/06 07:57 PM Unprovable assumptions. [Re: Mr_47]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I agree that attention to your life now is where the goodies are.

I also suggest that there are many things you can do and refrain from doing that will probably increase your lifespan.

However then I read this:

Quote:

You won't be conscious to validate it after your own death.




And exactly how can you know if that is true either?

There is so much that the current paradigm claims to know but does not know.

Substituting one belief system for another is pointless. It is no better than swapping superstitions.

Actually there is a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence that denies the simplicity of your suggested view.

That doesn't mean you are wrong.

If you make claims that cannot be proven however then it is pretty hard to be right.

I would simply suggest a different way to consider these topics.

If someone says "You do survive death" then ask them how they know this is true.

Judge their evidence procedure.

Please don't just say "I know if I am dead I will not exist" because then someone can reasonably ask you, "How can you know that?"

See what I mean?

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#166462 - 05/27/06 08:07 PM Re: Unprovable assumptions. [Re: Nemo]
Achilles Offline


Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 223
Quote:

I also suggest that there are many things you can do and refrain from doing that will probably increase your lifespan.




Speaking of increasing youth and lifespan, how do you have such a young voice? I heard you before on an interview.

A bit off topic.
_________________________
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard

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#166463 - 05/27/06 08:10 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Carkosa]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

There is no proof that shows otherwise.




I would suggest that your statement needs to define brain death as complete brain destruction to be more accurate.

There do exist many examples of EEG flatliners who are resuscitated and live long lives to tell the tale.

And then there are problems like this one.

The current scientific paradigm likes to pretend it possesses all of the answers with only a few details to be "tidied up".

That's been the same story told through out all of history.

There is still much science does not understand.

There is still much that science has gotten wrong.

Doubt is a two-edged sword. It needs to be applied as much to what we think is false as to what we think is true.

Evidence procedure is everything.

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#166464 - 05/27/06 08:13 PM Re: Unprovable assumptions. [Re: Achilles]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

Speaking of increasing youth and lifespan, how do you have such a young voice?




Living long does not require growing old.

Or as Mark Twain once put it:

"Rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated."

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#166465 - 05/27/06 08:16 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Yes. Is the universe a closed system?

Even worse, does anyone actually know if the universe is closed?

Socrates I recall it was suggested that mankind was like a group of frogs sitting around a frogpond self-assured that they know everything about the world.

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#166466 - 05/27/06 08:21 PM Re: Unprovable assumptions. [Re: Nemo]
Achilles Offline


Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 223
I was hoping you would have dropped a few hints, hehe.

It's impressive. You sounded like you were in your early 20s or less. Do you also look the way you sound? You should write a book on healthy living!
_________________________
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard

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#166467 - 05/27/06 08:21 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Psychotherapeut]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
And isn't this just as much an assumption just as those who are stating they are somehow "certain" that after death you are non-existent?

Arguments go on and on due to people who think they know things when, in truth, they do not.

They only are harboring assumptions.

As I have written above I am suggesting that it is wise to not assume that something that "seems plausible" is true.

Test it if you can.

If you can't then be careful what you choose to believe.

In my own case, I believe I will have a drink.

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#166468 - 05/27/06 08:41 PM Re: Unprovable assumptions. [Re: Nemo]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Yes sir I do see what you mean.

Hail Satan!

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#166469 - 05/27/06 09:17 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Nemo]
Psychotherapeut Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 456
Quote:

And isn't this just as much an assumption just as those who are stating they are somehow "certain" that after death you are non-existent?

Arguments go on and on due to people who think they know things when, in truth, they do not.

They only are harboring assumptions.

As I have written above I am suggesting that it is wise to not assume that something that "seems plausible" is true.

Test it if you can.

If you can't then be careful what you choose to believe.

In my own case, I believe I will have a drink.




I'll be more than happy to admit it all to be pure speculation... I would never lie to someone to say otherwise. I'm not a philosopher, and I suppose I should leave it to them to do their job... While there is a small overlap with what I do and what I continue to study, I think more than anything I wanted to stir the pot a little with another possibility that wasn't a total metaphysical explanation, and wasn't coming from someone who assumes there is a tangible afterlife... When I read the physio-psych/neurology rationalized post I felt compelled to... While we know that the basic information posted about how neurons function (thank the giant squids for this ), we still have little to no strong evidence on the process of thinking and consciousness being nearly as simplistic. We've come such a long way from simple behaviorism, seems like a cop out to explain it as simply as that... Especially when we can't make any finite statements (Not that any science is finite whatsoever...). I don't see any way of verifying any of it without experiencing it, and I'm not looking to die any time soon. I think I'd rather have a drink as well...
_________________________
Mein Leben, Meine Chance

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#166470 - 05/28/06 12:08 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Nemo]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10562
Loc: England
>> Socrates I recall it was suggested that mankind was like a group of frogs sitting around a frogpond self-assured that they know everything about the world <<

And you know what, Magister Nemo?

I have always said there is a great amount to be learned from such animals.

The frog is only being the best frog he can be - and doing it by thinking in a manner that is pertinent to his own existence; his own nature.

I think the way I want to think. I don't need my thoughts clogged with notions of other dimensions or afterlife bullshit.

I personally think it more natural to the human to live in such a way. I think it's the perfect example of why religions and mystical philosophies have thwarted man's ability to live.

My answer to anyone who asks how I know there is no life after death is - because that's what I think.

The problem with Socrates was that he never actually found the very things he was looking for - usable tools for living life.

I'm glad the old crow is dead.

This isn't an attack on what you've said - just my own take on the issue.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#166471 - 05/28/06 12:23 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
UVRAY
I have read many of your posts here and I always seem to take a little something for my arsenal from everyone of them. Who was it that said I think therefore I am? I'm not sure, but I believe it. I try not to shove my philosophies down others throats, not to imply anyone has, I just try to live by them. I feel that's all you really can do. I also like to share my thoughts, as I mentioned when I first got here, I believe in an open mind, and I believe in speaking your mind. Don't hold back for anyone. But I digress, good post my friend.

Hail Satan!
Hail ME!

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#166472 - 05/28/06 01:53 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
loyalservant Offline


Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 4
blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst for righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall see God. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

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#166473 - 05/28/06 02:32 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Psychotherapeut]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Then here is to you!

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#166474 - 05/28/06 02:42 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

I personally think it more natural to the human to live in such a way. I think it's the perfect example of why religions and mystical philosophies have thwarted man's ability to live.




Why what is "natural" for human beings is to be religious, to bow and scrape and serve the Gods they worship!

If we add up all the religious human beings and compare that number to all the non-religious human beings we discover what is normal and natural for human beings.

Religion did not just pop up in the last few hundred years, after all.

But I digress.

The real question here is what is more useful.

I would contend that overall it is more useful to have most human beings religiously worshipping their gods and for us to choose to be gods.

It all works out in a very balanced manner then.

Otherwise there is only needless frustration.

Cats act like cats.

Dogs act like dogs.

Humans act like humans.

Cats hiss. Dogs bark. Humans worship.

It is all very natural.

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#166475 - 05/28/06 02:43 AM Blessed are the peasants. [Re: loyalservant]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
BWA HAHAHAHA!

Boy, are you in the wrong place!

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#166476 - 05/28/06 02:57 AM Re: Blessed are the peasants. [Re: Nemo]
UmbraeNoctem Offline
Banned

Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 735
Loc: Barksdale AFB, Louisiana, USA
Quote:

BWA HAHAHAHA!

Boy, are you in the wrong place!


Indeed. He meant to post it in the humor section.
_________________________
Forever Alive,
Umbrae Noctem
---

Alien Elite.
Test Everything. Believe Nothing.

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#166477 - 05/28/06 02:57 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Nemo]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10562
Loc: England
>> Why what is "natural" for human beings is to be religious, to bow and scrape and serve the Gods they worship! <<

I am saying they worship because they cannot accept their nature; because of their "spiritual" development. In actual fact it's only an externalistion of their own egos.

As an example, Christians often espouse their altruism by denying the lust for revenge but you will often hear them say with real malice "oh God will really punish them."

It's failure to accept what is natural. But humans are still humans.

>> If we add up all the religious human beings and compare that number to all the non-religious human beings we discover what is normal and natural for human beings.<<

I disagree with that, I am afraid. The majority do not dictate what is natural or normal. I would say the majority make it wrong. Great minds think differently, not alike.


The enlightened don't need such illusions.

That is my understanding. I try not to think too much and just live according to my nature.

But the truth is, I couldn't give a fuck what they or anyone else thinks.

"the more intelligent I become, the more dumb I realise I am"

Richard Marcinko.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#166478 - 05/28/06 03:15 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

I am saying they worship because they cannot accept their nature; because of their "spiritual" development. In actual fact it's only an externalistion of their own egos.





And I am saying that this failure to accept their nature is part of their nature.

We have at least six thousand years of recorded history to back this up with the thoughts of millions of human beings who have stated and continue to state that this is so.

Human beings are by nature clearly religious animals.

We are not so.

That is why we are often referred to as the alien elite.

In any group of human beings about 5% (one out of twenty) will take a leadership role.

Worship derives directly from the meaning of "to work for".

Humans are naturally inclined to serve, to work for others, to be slaves.

Since this is their nature it seems a shame to not let them fulfill it by serving us, don't you think?

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#166479 - 05/28/06 03:22 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Nemo]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10562
Loc: England
yes, I agree that those born to serve must do so.

But we are getting sidetracked from the original conversation in which I was referring to the more aware.

I was likening the frogs sitting round the pond to Satanists in the sense that simply living in accordance with what we are is perfect simplicity. So simple and yet so useful. So simple that the great Socrates and other philosophers and thinkers have completely missed it.

_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#166480 - 05/28/06 03:25 AM Dinner time! [Re: loyalservant]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
Anyone have some mint jelly? I think that I smell mutton.
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#166481 - 05/28/06 03:29 AM Nemo's 100th birthday press interview [Re: Achilles]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Reporter: Mr. Nemo, on your one hundreth birthday would you please tell our listening and viewing audience if you have a special secret to living a long life?

Nemo: Well, young whippersnapper, I do indeed!

Reporter: Then to what do you attribute your long life?

Nemo: Just three simple words.

Reporter: And what are those three simple words, Mr. Nemo?

Nemo: Well, I'm glad you asked.

Reporter: Yes?

Nemo: They are ...

Reporter: Yes?

Nemo: Good...

Nemo: Clean...

(long pause).

Drinking!


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#166482 - 05/28/06 03:34 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Yep.

But it should also be clear that what is "simple" for us is certainly not natural for them.

The proof is in the pudding.

This leads to the entire issue of complaining about human beings being exactly the way they have to be.

It is a pointless exercise since it doesn't change them and only creates personal frustration.

Of course the majority of human beings are idiots.

That is their nature.

We are amongst the 5%.

Hence it is not natural for us.

Stratification.

It's not just for breakfast any more!

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#166483 - 05/28/06 04:02 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Nemo]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10562
Loc: England
>> Of course the majority of human beings are idiots.

That is their nature <<

Then it appears we agree.

However, for purposes of clarification, my point was that the basic elemnts of human nature (the seven deadly sins) is what I was referring to as Satanic. And even though they fight against them their actions are still over-ruled by these basic instincts.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#166484 - 05/28/06 04:19 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

However, for purposes of clarification, my point was that the basic elemnts of human nature (the seven deadly sins) is what I was referring to as Satanic. And even though they fight against them their actions are still over-ruled by these basic instincts.




Yes. We do agree.

And the point that I am attempting to make - and which I feel is remarkably important - is that the "fight" most people have against their natural instincts is also natural.

It is as natural for human beings to act like idiots and believe abject nonsense as it is for cats to hiss and dogs to bark.

If the Satanist truly gets this and ceases to demand or even expect that human beings can act in any other way then that Satanist rises to an impeccable condition of ....

(drumroll please)....

Alignment with human reality!

The young and angry neophite to Satanism is found to commonly rant and rave about human stupidity. Phase One Satanism is the way we usually speak of this.

But all of this anger reveals that the new Satanist has still not accepted that human beings are naturally exactly the way they have to be.

What is, is.

When the Satanist comes to realize that this is the nature of the human beast, he stops expecting or demanding anything different.

Efficiency in dealing with human beings increases and frustration drops off remarkably.

That is why I suggest it is pointless to suggest that it isn't natural for human beings to believe in all kinds of religious nonsense.

It is natural by definition.

It is their nature to be gullible and stupid and short-sighted.

If it wasn't then they wouldn't be that way!

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#166485 - 05/28/06 05:20 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
ElJago Offline


Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Northumberland, England
yes if the population of the world concentrated more on what they can do and achieve and change while they are alive than pontificate endlessly on what happens after they die the world would be a healthier place as a result.

Friends and work colleagues I know who are not particularly religious in any way still have very strong opinions about life after death. It seems an afterlife is the carrot nearly all religions have been dangling in front of humanity for so many years. The word "soul" has been used as a hammer to try and batter vital existence into a fine paste for centuries.
_________________________
Man: An animal so lost in rapturous comtemplation of what he thinks he is as to overlook what he indubitably ought to be - Ambrose Bierce - The Devil's Dictionary.

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said, "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Lewis Carroll, Through the looking glass.

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#166486 - 05/29/06 10:50 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
When I made the "energy reference" I was talking about what my entire body was made of.

The same thing that chairs, rocks, ducks, lamps, EARTH, is made of.

Atoms, molecules, etc.

As something starts to rot, pieces are left behind, taken by other animals, shit out in a stream, etc.

The point is, that your physical body is still actually in existence, and if it is, those molecules, atoms etc, don't stop being. Everything is what it is, rewardless of the fact you cannot withdraw money after your brain or heart has stopped.

With that said, I have to ask. If those specific "pieces" of me, were me when I was alive, ar they still "me" after I've lost consciousness, ceased to move, gone into a coma, or get hit by a bus?

I don't have the answer to that, but I assume that a baseball is always a baseball, even if it gets craqcked and loses some of its stitching.
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#166487 - 05/29/06 11:43 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: man_mind]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Would you assume that a toaster is still a toaster after it has been melted down and recycled into a blender?

Your body replaces and removes atoms and molecules every day by the millions. So, is that junk you replace still you. Do you wave good bye to your defecation as it is flushed down the toilet, knowing it used to be you?

The fact that material may once have helped contribute to your survival does not necessarily mean it is “you.” The “you” is what is maintained up top in the brain department. You could lose all the data up there and all you would be is a shell of nothing. I would not say you are you anymore. You might resemble you, but you are not you.

People can use physics and chemistry all they want to try to dignify death and gain some small amount of eternal life with wishy-washy jargon. But it does not work in my book. Death is death no matter if you rot and a flower bed grows off your corpse.

I would say, "Nice flowers. Whatever happened to Man Mind? Oh, well. Those flowers are very nice."
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#166488 - 05/29/06 12:21 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: man_mind]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:

The point is, that your physical body is still actually in existence, and if it is, those molecules, atoms etc, don't stop being. Everything is what it is, rewardless of the fact you cannot withdraw money after your brain or heart has stopped.




(Emphasis mine.)

Every now and then, a random typo seems oddly appropriate.

If there's one thing death certainly looks to be short of, it's rewards (at least to the one doing the dying).

-Chess

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#166489 - 05/29/06 12:36 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Discipline]
Minus Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 2236
Loc: Circling A Star
Quote:

Do you wave good bye to your defecation as it is flushed down the toilet, knowing it used to be you?




What a great idea. I think I will save my defecation, lump it together and sculpt a new me to replace the old me after it becomes shit. Then my new shit-me can flush the old real-me down the toilet and I can wave goodbye to myself from beneath swirling waves of tidy bowl blue.


Edited by MinusXIII (05/29/06 03:21 PM)
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Minus

"When the great lord passes, the wise peasant bows deeply and silently farts."
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#166490 - 05/29/06 03:54 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Discipline]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
Quote:

Would you assume that a toaster is still a toaster after it has been melted down and recycled into a blender?




No, that is a sentence that negates itself, becuase it missed the annitial point, which is; Metal is metal, no matter what form it takes; toaster, blender, transformer Megatron, no matter, it is still metal.

Quote:

Your body replaces and removes atoms and molecules every day by the millions. So, is that junk you replace still you. Do you wave good bye to your defecation as it is flushed down the toilet, knowing it used to be you?




Out with the old, in with the new.

I think that Magis Lavey spoke his portion on that, and I'd have to agree with him.
--
Anyway, do YOU wave bye-bye to your poopies?

I had to ask, it only seemed appropriate.

Quote:

The fact that material may once have helped contribute to your survival does not necessarily mean it is “you.” The “you” is what is maintained up top in the brain department. You could lose all the data up there and all you would be is a shell of nothing. I would not say you are you anymore. You might resemble you, but you are not you.




I'll go re-read my post, but I'm sure that I said the same thing in a different way.

When I was referring to the "you portion" I was not excluding the the mental "you", I was speaking strictly of the deposited "you".

The rest was meant to remain speculative for the viewers of the thread.

Quote:

wishy-washy jargon.




Which wishy washy would you be making reference to? The;


Quote:

brain




or the fact that the atoms and other parts that make up everything, are infact a part of you? And so it goes without saying that whatever grows on my carcus, is in some small way a part of my physical body. Where did my mind go? Well, if someone asked me that, then I'd say;

Quote:

People can use physics and chemistry all they want to try to dignify death and gain some small amount of eternal life with wishy-washy jargon. But it does not work in my book. Death is death no matter if you rot and a flower bed grows off your corpse.

I would say, "Nice flowers. Whatever happened to Man Mind? Oh, well. Those flowers are very nice."




Maybe not even. I'd probably say; "He is right there in the back cover of that book" or" on Television, are you blind?" or, This is man_minds child, doesn't he look EXACTLY like him?

And this could go on all day.

You mis read my post, clearly.

Now I must wishy-washy my hands of any further debate on the issue, unless it is a contribution.

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#166491 - 05/29/06 11:15 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: man_mind]
Necromatrix Offline


Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 21
Loc: Gulfport, MS
I can agree with your pint that we “live on” in those we leave behind and our legacy. Certainly, when I die those who know me and whose life I have made an impact upon will keep the memory of me alive. However, I will not still be alive just because my corpse is rotting in the ground. This part of the issue seems a little to Buddhist or maybe Wicca for my taste.
But, it all boils down to perspective. Suggesting that we live on as ourselves after our conscience mind has faded is just another way of dealing with death. If that works for you or whomever, great. Me, I see no point in deluding myself. I will live my life as I see fit. I will continue to set and achieve goals for myself. Whether I am remembered or not when I am gone does not matter to me, I will be dead. I will not know if my friends speak of me, or if I go down in history for something I did. I will be dead. The light will be out, the TV off, the game over.
_________________________
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#166492 - 05/29/06 11:32 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Necromatrix]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
Indeed. The game here, is over when you're dead! I never refuted that fact.

People are not getting the one main word, Physical, in anything I'm saying here.



The twin towers fell. They were still the remains of what?

Beside the memory, and the fact that they were "gone" you still have something; the remains of what?

The remains of the towers!

People continue replying with;

But it is just rubble, the twin towers are no longer.

But they are indeed. In more ways than one.

So, if I'm dead, like the towers, I still AM, Physically here.

The remains of WHO is in that casket.

There it is again.

There is nothing Wiccan or buddhist about the matter.
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#166493 - 05/30/06 12:38 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: man_mind]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>No, that is a sentence that negates itself, becuase it missed the annitial point,

Of course it negates itself. However, that was the point and I found your point flawed. But again, that is my point.

The wishy-washy jargon I speak of is all the talk of energy and chemicals that once composed a person. In the end, death is death and all the energy of a demised person does not matter one bit. They are still very much dead.

I think it is a bit silly to gain some kind of satisfaction out of the thought that once you are dead your chemical make-up can be reused. But that is just my nasty opinion.

Again, if I saw a dead person on TV, which happens quite a bit, I would still say, "Oh, yeah. That guy is dead." I might have enjoy that person's skills but, sad to say, he is dead. Which I don't like. I much rather have skilled and talented people alive.

Did I misread your post or did I catch you in one of those weird moods? Your post was trying to fabricate some kind of immortality through chemistry and I disagreed with it.

>>Anyway, do YOU wave bye-bye to your poopies?

Of course I do. Who doesn't?
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#166494 - 05/30/06 04:17 AM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Nemo]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

Quote:

There is no proof that shows otherwise.




I would suggest that your statement needs to define brain death as complete brain destruction to be more accurate.




Sorry I wasn't clear enough but that is exactly what I meant when I said, "Once your brain shuts down through the process of death it's all over." I was referring to complete brain destruction. Biological or irreversible death. Basically when the organs and/or tissues have undergone irreversable changes to the point where resuscitation will be impossible. The brain is one of the three organs that make up the vital tripod of life, the other two being the heart and lungs. When any one of these organs shut down somatic death occurs.

Quote:

There do exist many examples of EEG flatliners who are resuscitated and live long lives to tell the tale.




You are referring to "clinical death" which is the first stage of somatic death generally lasting no longer than 5 minutes. It is during this stage that if body conditions permit and timely medical attention is recieved, the person can be resuscitated. This is too short of a time span to bring back accurate tales of an afterlife. Because they were only dead for a few minutes or seconds, they could have been hallucinating or even dreaming due to the brain and body going through so much trauma.


Quote:

There is still much science does not understand.

There is still much that science has gotten wrong.




Of course. However in the case of life after death, that is something that is impossible to verify during this time...if ever. Until we can re-animate people who have been dead for days, months or years (clinical death is not long enough to tell of a real afterlife) we will never know. And that is IF they do not come back retarded


Edited by Carkosa (05/30/06 04:39 AM)

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#166495 - 05/30/06 01:17 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Discipline]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
Quote:

I think it is a bit silly to gain some kind of satisfaction out of the thought that once you are dead your chemical make-up can be reused. But that is just my nasty opinion.




Firstly, I'm not trying to do anything; be it make my self feel special, or promote everlasting life through some silly idea like reincarnation.

Never said that, not once. Never implied it either.

Quote:

Did I misread your post or did I catch you in one of those weird moods? Your post was trying to fabricate some kind of immortality through chemistry and I disagreed with it.




In short; my post, if it had been replying to a post about a tree, standing or fallen, or even a non living object, like a pencil, now being shavings in a baggy, is still what it once was, in, the, PHYSICAL sense of it all.

My post was not spiritual, in any way shape or form.

Not sure how else to put this.

Well, if I ever figure out another way, I'll be sure not to post it. This is boring me now.

Normally you have been really good at replying to posts. I'm not sure what happened here. Maybe, as you said,

Quote:

did I catch you in one of those weird moods?




This is a case of miscommunication that could be resolved by one or both parties taking a time out to absorb what is being said.

Pretty much, we are saying the same thing through two different approaches.
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#166496 - 05/30/06 01:32 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Carkosa]
Cholinergic Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 888
Loc: UK
Quote:


Of course. However in the case of life after death, that is something that is impossible to verify during this time...if ever. Until we can re-animate people who have been dead for days, months or years (clinical death is not long enough to tell of a real afterlife) we will never know. And that is IF they do not come back retarded





Hours is no problem if the patient is hyperthermic. Days, not yet but working on it. Centuries, not yet but working on it (and requires preperation).
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#166497 - 05/30/06 02:17 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Cholinergic]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

Quote:


Of course. However in the case of life after death, that is something that is impossible to verify during this time...if ever. Until we can re-animate people who have been dead for days, months or years (clinical death is not long enough to tell of a real afterlife) we will never know. And that is IF they do not come back retarded





Hours is no problem if the patient is hyperthermic. Days, not yet but working on it. Centuries, not yet but working on it (and requires preperation).




Did you mean Hypothermic or Hyperthermic? Either way, both result in brain damage if it was the clinical (or biological if we are going to rely on cryosuspension) cause of death. What good is coming back if you are going to be retarded?


Edited by Carkosa (05/30/06 02:21 PM)

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#166498 - 05/30/06 06:11 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Carkosa]
Cholinergic Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 888
Loc: UK
Clinical death induced under controlled circumstances (or on rare occasions with drowning victims) can result in full recovery and is often used during certain types of surgery. And I meant hypothermic (always get those 2 mixed up) of course.

What this goes to show of course is that under appropiate conditions those few minutes of time after cardiac arrest can be extended if the patient's metabolism is slowed down and it need not produce brain damage. Personally, even if it did always cause brain damage I would still prefer to come back brain damaged and retarded than to not come back at all.
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#166499 - 05/30/06 06:28 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Cholinergic]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Quote:


I would still prefer to come back brain damaged and retarded than to not come back at all.




I couldn't agree more.

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#166500 - 05/30/06 07:03 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Nemo]
Asmedious Offline


Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 617
Quote:

Worship derives directly from the meaning of "to work for".
Humans are naturally inclined to serve, to work for others, to be slaves.





Oh fantastic!!! Thanks so much, as if I don't hate working for someone else already, you have publicly declared what I hate about myself the most

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#166501 - 05/30/06 07:11 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Mr_47]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State

I would still prefer to come back brain damaged and retarded than to not come back at all.


Oh, not me! Hell no.

My feeling is, if I truly do come out retarded or vegetative "I" am already dead, because "I" am my thoughts, my abilities, my skills, my knowledge, my humor, my memories, and my intelligence. I am not just an organic sack of meat who deserves applause just for breathing. I'd hate to lose my remaining dignity and be a burden on my loved ones, too.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#166502 - 05/30/06 08:54 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: man_mind]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
I refer you to Buddhism and the concept of Anatta. Basically, it's impossible to define oneself except in terms of things around you since your atoms have always existed in some form or another. Anatta isn't really nothingness, but the absence of independent existance. They do a really good job delving into the subject.

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#166503 - 05/30/06 09:10 PM Re: Unprovable assumptions. [Re: Nemo]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
I stand by my statement that physical death is physical death. However, that says nothing about spiritual death. That is a religious matter and not one that could or should be taken into the realm of science with misconceptions on thermodynamics. Thanks for the posts magister. As always, there is wisdom in believing in only what can be known as absolute.

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#166504 - 05/30/06 09:20 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Nemo]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
I find it reassuring to hear some of what I've been saying for years echoed by someone else. I know I'm not just crazy anymore. One thing I've tried to tell people, and a concept that many of them can't grasp, is that there is one of two possible worlds you can live in. A "should" world and an "is" world. People who live in a should world think that the world should be a certain way. Obviously these people are filled with angst and frustration since the world will never be what it should be. The second, and more enlightened group, lives in the world as it is. They accept the world not as they think it should be, but as it really exists. These people see the opportunities for making changes as they present themselves rather than banging their head against the wall trying to change human nature or perform some other impossible task.

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#166505 - 05/30/06 09:41 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
I'll give that a read over. (Search for the concept)

So you do know, I found this idea in a completely scientific arena, not through any means of religious thought, or theology.

It is interesting to note, that if we are speaking of the same things, that a religion and a scientific fact would hold the same concepts as true.
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#166506 - 05/30/06 10:07 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: man_mind]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
Zen Buddhism actually states that there is no afterlife. Rebirth simply refers to being reborn into different states of mind. My initial attraction to Buddhism was based on it's logical nature and agreement with logic, but I had to give it up because it still has a few tenents of faith and it's too passive for my tastes.

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#166507 - 05/30/06 11:04 PM Re: Nemo's 100th birthday press interview [Re: Nemo]
Stev2 Offline


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 183
...

Hilarity at it's finest!!
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#166508 - 05/30/06 11:13 PM Re: Unprovable assumptions. [Re: Nemo]
Stev2 Offline


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 183
Quote:

I agree that attention to your life now is where the goodies are.

I also suggest that there are many things you can do and refrain from doing that will probably increase your lifespan.

However then I read this:

Quote:

You won't be conscious to validate it after your own death.




And exactly how can you know if that is true either?






Any kind of satanic mysticsm is fun and a boost to the ego. But, I agree that the goodies are here and now.

It's not satanic to hold any kind of mystical tenet seriously.
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#166509 - 05/31/06 02:05 AM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: TrojZyr]
Cholinergic Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 888
Loc: UK
I used to agree with this until I considered the alternative.

The choice is between never experiencing any joy at all and experiencing simple pleasures again. I choose being able to experience pleasure again. My 6 month old son is not yet highly intelligent but I can see him experience the simple pleasures in life. Even if he did stay at the same level as he is now for life his life would still be worth something to him.
_________________________
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#166510 - 05/31/06 05:58 AM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: TrojZyr]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:


I would still prefer to come back brain damaged and retarded than to not come back at all.


Oh, not me! Hell no.

My feeling is, if I truly do come out retarded or vegetative "I" am already dead, because "I" am my thoughts, my abilities, my skills, my knowledge, my humor, my memories, and my intelligence. I am not just an organic sack of meat who deserves applause just for breathing. I'd hate to lose my remaining dignity and be a burden on my loved ones, too.




My sentiments exactly! I would hate to be in a wheelchair and diapers, drooling everywhere with the mind of a baby. That is a sad and pathetic way to come back into this world. It is also a waste of immortality because I cannot not do anything with my life. I do not want to be remembered this way by those who knew me as the woman I once was.

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#166511 - 05/31/06 11:23 AM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Carkosa]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State
Precisely.

I see Gareth's point about simple pleasures, and it's a good one indeed.

But, I still find the idea of drooling, mumbling, and cavorting about in my own filth to be highly objectionable, simply because being that way steals from me what I used to value most, and because I am, in that state, a horrendous, tragic burden on everyone around me.

Practically everyone with an IQ under 110 scares me, I admit, so the last thing I want to do is join that club.

Now, if I come out of an accident mildly retarded, damaged, or slow, but my inner self is more or less intact, I can handle that.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#166512 - 05/31/06 11:32 AM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: TrojZyr]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
I can see your point. I myself scored a 127 on my last IQ test so I guess in that perspective, to fall from that to an iq of under 100 (especially into the 70's or 80's) would be absolutely terrifying. In my original argument I was trying to support the ideal of preserving my life. In reflection of that, to lose what I am inside, truly would be a greater loss than losing my life. I would rather be remembered as the strong, intelligent and independent being I am now than a drooling, helpless, shit infested vegetable. I guess originally I was thinking of being moreso a mildly damaged individual as a result of whatever rather than perceiving myself a vegetable. I still maintain I would rather survive at some loss than die, however I wouldn't want to be incapable of helping myself or even acknowledging who I am in my own personal greatness.

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#166513 - 05/31/06 03:14 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: TrojZyr]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
funny... I was just thinking about that.
last time I got my IQ checked I was 145, I know I'll be depressed if I become a 135- so I am certain I would rather die if I get below 110.
I would never ever want to live after irreparable brain injury- it's the most redundant and shameful existence I can think of.
It's the same with having a fetus with potential of being retarded- I will not think twice before I have an abortion. Giving birth to a retarded baby always scared the shit out of me.. ~knocking on wood~ (and that's a figure of speech) I would not know what to do… its just awful..
I wish it for no one. Not even for my enemies.
_________________________
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#166514 - 05/31/06 03:19 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Quote:

Zen Buddhism actually states that there is no afterlife. Rebirth simply refers to being reborn into different states of mind. My initial attraction to Buddhism was based on it's logical nature and agreement with logic, but I had to give it up because it still has a few tenents of faith and it's too passive for my tastes.




~SAME HERE~
I stated EXACTLY this in another thread
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There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#166515 - 05/31/06 10:30 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: man_mind]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>My post was not spiritual, in any way shape or form.

I never called it spiritual, just that I disagree with your approach.

>>Pretty much, we are saying the same thing through two different approaches.

I can agree with that. Or is it, agree to disagree?
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#166516 - 05/31/06 11:12 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Discipline]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
Good question.

I really see it as we are saying the same thing from two different approaches.

Who knows?

In short, I say flesh is flesh, rotted or not, and if it is rotted, you are dead. If you are dead, then you are dead. The flesh is still flesh.

I wasn't commenting on the brain portion of it, as in the you, the "I" inside, or the driver in the vehicle, or if that driver went of to Jebus land!

So it is safe to assume, to me anyway, thatwe are indeed saying the same thing through two different approaches. You merely decided to ignore, or perhaps not give a shit about my approach, in a way that you would have had to reflect on something you just don't care about.

I can respect that.

What is irritating, is the fact that you just didn't have to reply, if this is the case.

Seems like time better spent washing dishes.
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"A priest is one who harbors the ill and gives them faith because they fear death and they are weak."

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#166517 - 06/01/06 12:13 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: man_mind]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Ignore? Not give a shit?

I did not ignore it and if I did not give a shit I would not have responded.

I might have been testing your approach and your point. I might have . . .

Yes, I could have not replied, but I did and I rather enjoyed it. I guess that does not make two of us. Sort of selfish of me, would you say?
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#166518 - 06/01/06 08:54 AM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: TrojZyr]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

Precisely.

I see Gareth's point about simple pleasures, and it's a good one indeed.




Yes, one could argue that in this case ignorance is bliss. Not knowing you are retarded is not going to affect you one bit, and you probably will enjoy your life at this most simple level. How the world sees you will not matter to you either. However, knowing what I know now, I would not want to be re-animated if retardation was inevitable. Being born that way is one thing, becoming that way after once living as an intelligent healthy individual is just too much. It's almost like being born blind. If I were born this way it would simply be a normal part of life for me. If I became blind later in life after knowing the world through sight, I would be so unhappy and miserable for a long time. I would cope but I would feel as if most of my life was taken from me. To me, other than being severely retarded that is the second worst handicap.

Quote:

Now, if I come out of an accident mildly retarded, damaged, or slow, but my inner self is more or less intact, I can handle that.




Yeah that is not so bad. Anything below the mental age of 12-14 is not good.

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#166519 - 06/01/06 10:03 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Discipline]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
Well, maybe. Selfish is a good thing though.
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"A priest is one who harbors the ill and gives them faith because they fear death and they are weak."

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#166520 - 06/01/06 10:22 AM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Carkosa]
Cholinergic Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 888
Loc: UK
This whole issue boils down to whether a life with a severe disability is better than death.

Anyone who has ever simply admired the immense joy of existing, simple things such as eating some tasty food can appreciate where i'm coming from here. If the only 2 options were literally death and disability, I would take disability. Death takes everything, all joy that you could ever have for all eternity is gone. Disability (of whatever form) leaves some joys.

Do you want a little bit of happiness or no happiness?
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#166521 - 06/01/06 10:37 AM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Cholinergic]
Minus Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 2236
Loc: Circling A Star
Quote:

This whole issue boils down to whether a life with a severe disability is better than death.

Anyone who has ever simply admired the immense joy of existing, simple things such as eating some tasty food can appreciate where i'm coming from here. If the only 2 options were literally death and disability, I would take disability. Death takes everything, all joy that you could ever have for all eternity is gone. Disability (of whatever form) leaves some joys.

Do you want a little bit of happiness or no happiness?




Very well put! I agree.

Let's also not forget how fun it would be to be retarded. People spend tons of money on drugs to get that feeling. Retards get it free of charge. That, my friend, is wise business.
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Minus

"When the great lord passes, the wise peasant bows deeply and silently farts."
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#166522 - 06/01/06 10:43 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Discipline]
ninhursag_ki Offline


Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 84
Loc: The Deep South
Quote:

Would you assume that a toaster is still a toaster after it has been melted down and recycled into a blender?

** Good point. And for me, even that 'blender' is an objective experience-creation. Consciously, I realize that I am expressing myself physically; and when the times comes, I will express myself non-physically, even non-consciously.

Fear is not something I either have or am concerned with, likewise extinction.


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#166523 - 06/01/06 10:48 AM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: Minus]
ninhursag_ki Offline


Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 84
Loc: The Deep South
Quote:

Quote:

Do you wave good bye to your defecation as it is flushed down the toilet, knowing it used to be you?




What a great idea. I think I will save my defecation, lump it together and sculpt a new me to replace the old me after it becomes shit. Then my new shit-me can flush the old real-me down the toilet and I can wave goodbye to myself from beneath swirling waves of tidy bowl blue.




** Ah yes, the wonders of Golgotha, the infernal sh*t demon. They make such great pets.


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#166524 - 06/01/06 12:39 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Carkosa]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State
I like chocolate milk. Now I'm a horsie! Baaa!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uARZnvuQ78c&search=foster%27s%20home

So, would you rather be deaf, or blind? That's a tough one.

After seeing "In a Glass Cage" this morning, I've decided that being in an iron lung also ranks high on the Unpleasantness List.

So, here's a question: under what circumstances could a retarded person be considered Satanic? They can be rather like children, or animals, depending on the nature of the disability.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#166525 - 06/01/06 02:34 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: TrojZyr]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:


So, would you rather be deaf, or blind? That's a tough one.




It is VERY tough. If I'm deaf or blind at least I still have my intelligence and I can still do something with my life although it will be much harder and limiting. That has never stopped others in accomplishing great things. I would just have to change my goals. I still would have all of my memories, I can make good decisions for myself and most of all I can still have sex! Who would fuck a retard? Even if someone would, it would be kind of illegal being that they are taking advantage of the person. Even though blindness is terrifying, I find it more terrifying to lose my entire identity through madness or retardation.


Quote:

So, here's a question: under what circumstances could a retarded person be considered Satanic? They can be rather like children, or animals, depending on the nature of the disability.




I would say no, they would not be Satanic. These individuals are flawed and are in no way or form elite. They can never go anywhere in life and will always remain a burdon to their loved ones and to society. They serve no purpose. It's truly a sad existance. It's the mind that makes a Satanist. As long as you still have a great mind then no other disability will get in the way.

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#166526 - 06/01/06 02:43 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Carkosa]
Minus Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 2236
Loc: Circling A Star
Quote:

Who would fuck a retard?




My girlfriend seems to think it is a worthwhile pastime...
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Hail Satan!
Minus

"When the great lord passes, the wise peasant bows deeply and silently farts."
-Ethiopian Proverb

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#166527 - 06/01/06 03:16 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Minus]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel

I love it when people laugh at themselves.. it's a sign of a healthy ego.
HS!
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#166528 - 06/01/06 03:53 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: TrojZyr]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
Quote:

Practically everyone with an IQ under 110 scares me, I admit, so the last thing I want to do is join that club.



Your standards are too low dear TrojZyr.

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#166529 - 06/01/06 04:00 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: The_Lightning]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
I saw that post actually. Sometimes certain things bare repeating in a different context or situation. This forum is rather large and I'm sure that not everybody has the good sense to read all your posts.

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#166530 - 06/01/06 04:44 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: TrojZyr]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:

So, would you rather be deaf, or blind? That's a tough one.




Certainly not an enviable choice either way, but I wouldn't find this one very hard. I'd take deafness.

It's a matter of simple practicality. As a deaf man I'd still be able to drive, bike, read ordinary books and computer screens (and write to them), mow the lawn, and any of ten thousand other small things. (Plus, sign language looks easier to pick up than Braille.) I'd miss music terribly, and it'd be much harder to join a regular spoken conversation, but that's small potatoes compared to what blindness would take away.

That's not to say that the blind are completely helpless. I once helped a friend move into a new apartment; one of those "get a U-Haul and bribe all your friends with pizza to come carry stuff" affairs. To my surprise, one of the other helpers to show up was completely blind. But once he got the layout and had counted all the steps and such, he was carrying boxes to the third-floor walkup just as well as any of us. Still, blindness seems a much greater blow to independence than deafness -- if a deaf guy had shown up to help move, it wouldn't even have been noteworthy enough to mention here.

-Chess

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#166531 - 06/01/06 04:48 PM Re: I can't take it anymore! [Re: ModernTantalus]
evalUate Offline


Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Michigan
Tantalus, this is concisely put and I agree with this completely. Pragmatism is remarkably absent in the majority of the religious. Why so few are able to see the obvious has always astounded me, but as Magister Nemo aptly put, it is man’s unfortunate nature, apparently. This actually makes the Satanist’s life much easier, as what is practical is often left untouched for us to grab. Most people are, “Too fond of the Right, to pursue the expedient.” –(Goldsmith)

-Nadine

HAIL SATAN!

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#166532 - 06/01/06 06:44 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Carkosa]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State
I'd say, I'd rather go blind, even though it is a difficult choice. I enjoy music so much, I'd hate to never experience it again.

Who would fuck a retard?

In my experience, 1)other retards, and 2) not very nice people.

Remember, most of those people still have their sexual instincts fully intact, but will typically lack the ability to use good judgment and self-restraint. And, as a cherry on top, scumbags will often be eager to take advantage of the situation.

I would say no, they would not be Satanic.

You listed off some of the reasons why I do not think most retarded people would qualify as Satanic, but, I asked "under what circumstances" simply because there are so many different types and forms of brain damage. (I probably should've used "brain damage" the first time around to allow for that.)

One of my co-workers a long time ago was mildly retarded, but it imbued her with this profound, pragmatic common sense. She was able to see through most people's bullshit simply because she lacked the ability to rationalize or hyperbolize things like regular people. So, for example, she thought religion was idiotic, because she just saw plain existence and life for what it was, and was satisfied with that. She was therefore Satanic in certain ways.

But, while I hear what you're getting at, your actual arguments may not be airtight just yet.

They serve no purpose.

It depends on what you'd call a purpose. I imagine many of them are happy to be alive, and their loved ones may feel the same way. They may not be capable of producing great works, but then, neither are children or pets, and we still like those critters.

will always remain a burdon to their loved ones and to society.

I see what you're getting at, but, just to be clear, when are people an "appropriate" burden to others, and when are they not?

It's the mind that makes a Satanist.

I'd say it's the mind and the character/will, since I know people with great minds who are still not Satanic. But, that's just an aside.

And, children and animals don't have brilliant minds either. BUT, it works if we clarify that every being has a particular capacity range for certain kinds of achievement and thought.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#166533 - 06/01/06 06:49 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: ModernTantalus]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State
I wanted to give myself plenty of wiggle room because I don't know what the mean scores for IQs are nowadays, and all I remember is that mine was not as high as I might've liked. (But then, I would've liked to have had Marilyn vos Savant's score.)

But then, I've met some insufferable MENSA members too, so it's about more than just intelligence, which is also why I can afford to be more lax about specific scores.

Suffice it to say, people with lower intelligence, common sense, and curiosity levels scare me.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#166534 - 06/01/06 07:23 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: TrojZyr]
Cholinergic Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 888
Loc: UK
Quote:


will always remain a burdon to their loved ones and to society.

I see what you're getting at, but, just to be clear, when are people an "appropriate" burden to others, and when are they not?





This is an excellent point - pretty much every human being on the planet is at one point or another a burden to others. The difference between a parent looking after a disabled child (for example) and a psychic vampire should however be quite obvious:

A parent has some level of responsibility to the child. The child being disabled does not alter this, and personally I am of the opinion that a parent is responsible for raising their child until they become an adult.
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#166535 - 06/01/06 07:26 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: TrojZyr]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
Here's essentially my thoughts on intelligence. Typically I score between 140 and 170 on IQ tests, depending on how I feel that day and which sort of test I'm taking. Average intelligence is, by definition, 100. No matter what happens the average IQ will always be 100. If tomorrow everyone's IQ jumped to 200, then new IQ tests would be recalibrated so that the average IQ was 100 again. The definition for mental retardation is an IQ of 80 or below. Because this is based on a bell curve, most mentally handicapped fall in the range of 70 - 80. So, your average person is 20 - 30 IQ points above the retared. I'm 40 to 70 points above an average person. Even on my worst day there's still about twice the IQ span between myself and an average person as there is between an average person and the mentally handicapped. For me it's like living in a world in which 98% of the people I come in contact with are mentally handicapped. Most of the other 2% are emotionally or socially handicapped. That's one of the reasons I like this forum so much. There's a higher proportion of people with decent intelligence and social skills than there is in the general puplic or even Mensa. So... I typically have a hard time communicating effectively with anyone with an IQ under 120.

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#166536 - 06/01/06 07:32 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: ModernTantalus]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Quote:

So... I typically have a hard time communicating effectively with anyone with an IQ under 120.




Well, to know I am typically 27 points above the average human is nice. Also it is nice to know I am still within your acceptable range of communication.

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#166537 - 06/01/06 08:35 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: ModernTantalus]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State
I have read some studies that said that the average IQ is increasing, number-wise. (Although, you are correct, I suspect, about the average automatically being re-set to 100, for convenience's sake.)

For me it's like living in a world in which 98% of the people I come in contact with are mentally handicapped. Most of the other 2% are emotionally or socially handicapped. That's one of the reasons I like this forum so much.

I hear ya there.

I think on one IQ test, I scored slightly above 120---I seem to remember 125?---and on the next one, I scored a duh-dee-dee-dee score of about 115. But, that was several years ago. The math and spatial portions of those tests really tend to get me down.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#166538 - 06/01/06 08:41 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: Cholinergic]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State
And, although this value is subjective, I also think it depends on what one reaps from interacting with that organism, compared to what one gives to that organism. I am a financial and occasional social burden to my parents, but they would say I am worth it, because I bring happiness into their lives that outweighs the majority of those sacrifices.

I feel extremely sorry for those parents who will have to take care of severely disabled or retarded children for the rest of their lives, period, and will most likely never get to see those children grow or improve in any notable ways. That must be quite difficult indeed.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#166539 - 06/01/06 08:56 PM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: TrojZyr]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
Notice how I said that it depends on the kind of IQ test I take as far as scores go. Also, spatial tests on an IQ test are unfair. Psychologist have determined that there is no difference between the cognative abilities of men and women except that men can rotate 3 dimensional objects in their minds better than women. I'm not being sexist here. It's been established in psychological tests. Hence, why spacial relations do not belong on any IQ test.

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#166540 - 06/02/06 08:22 AM Re: The brain is the boss. [Re: ModernTantalus]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State
Nope, you're not being sexist, and yup, you are correct that the content of the test matters.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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