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#171272 - 06/18/06 07:21 AM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: WolfMoon]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
There was a time where i hated christianity and spend too much time on that hatred, it does not affect me anymore these days, i see a bigger danger in muslim extremism and their whole jihad thing towards all non-believers..but then again, i try not to focus alot on it. If that time comes (hope not) that i need to defend myself against that scum, then i am definitely ready for it.
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#171273 - 06/18/06 11:09 AM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: tovasshi]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
What a beautifully written reply! I agree with you completely.

I think that every rebel has to feel hatred and anger towards things that repressed him and made society so dumb- it's a part of getting detached from it and starting to walk one's own path.
It is when it's obsessive that those feelings become self-distractive, like anything else would be when taken in an overdose. Balance- is definitely a key word here.
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There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#171274 - 06/18/06 11:30 AM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: WolfMoon]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
I am not one for bashing other religions myself. I am what I am and do not need to gratify myself in the destruction of others simply based on their 'faith'. I actually studied many religions over the years prior to finding Satanism. Even after reading the Satanic Bible when I was 17, I continued to study other religions and just made it a point to live by what I had learned from that diabolical black book. I find actually it helps to know thine enemy, to paraphrase. I find myself rarely leaving home with the exception of retrieving necessities because I do not wish to be bothered by anyone, and therefore I do not wish to bother them. You will always have to deal with righteousness, idiocy and hypocrocy wherever you go. Until Lex Talionis is widely practiced by nations everywhere(if ever), there will always be idiots. Just stay out of their way. How does that expression go when encountering animals, "They are more afraid of you then you are of them." We are feared because we are the Alien Elite, we see life for what it is rather than trying to change what we are for the promise of a glorious afterlife, and that scares them. Don't waste your time bashing them and lowering yourself to their level. Take pride in knowing that they fear YOU because you are a Satanist.

Rege Satanas!

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#171275 - 06/18/06 12:08 PM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: tovasshi]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Suffice it to say, I have a "complex" relationship with religion. I neither strongly hate it, nor strongly love it. It's not a black/white deal with me, because I have put so much work into studying religion, and really trying to understand it.

When I think about it, the religion I bash the most is Wicca, because to my knowledge, I've never met a well-adjusted Wiccan, and I think that's rather telling. When I engage in bashing, I typically bash specific people or groups, or make fun of particular teachings or views.

I like religion because:

Religion--Big Questions, an attraction to myths and archetypes, the ability to disassociate during a profound ritual, etc.--is a part of who we are as human beings. It is encoded into us. To deny this would be akin to denying the biological and genetic origins of lust, or love, or aggression.

Religion often inspires people to create great works of art and myth. Certainly, people create myths and art without religion all the time, but I do wonder what would've been lost if religion did not exist. I for one love studying all the different creation myths, for example, or watching the assorted rituals of various religions.

Religion typically inspires people to ask Big Questions and seek purpose. If there's one thing I can say about the sincere religious people I know, it's that many of them seem to be genuinely energized and excited about life in the least, and genuinely interested in complex questions related to purpose, meaning and/or ethics at the most. The hardcore atheists I know tend to be more than a bit dull and drab, and they sometimes get lost because they aren't grounded in some kind of purpose or sense of direction.

Religion can actually look really cool when it's discussed or practiced by people who sincerely care about Big Questions, who aren't afraid of complexity, and most of all, who truly want religious teachings to apply to human beings in a realistic, sensical, and humanistic fashion. John Shelby Spong, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Tito Colliander, Chuang Tzu, Paul Tillich, CS Lewis, St. Thomas Aquinas can be considered examples of people who seem mostly sincere, (usually) well grounded, and willing to truly wrestle with ideas, in order to seek truths that will create the best, most humanistic, most intelligent, most honest results and practical applications for human beings. Naturally, the products of these sophisticated, honest musings are rarely Satanic in spirit or in nature, note, but I for one can at least appreciate it when individuals are attempting to create a realistic framework that they themselves can live within.

Many people would be lost without some kind of religion or ideology. They need something to guide and inspire them, as well as something to control their conduct and direct their morality. To tear religion away from such people would akin to tearing a pacifier away from a baby, or draining oil out of a car and expecting it to still run just as well as before.

Not everyone is a Satanist, could be a Satanist, should be a Satanist, would be a Satanist. For me to resent a non-Satanist for seeking a standard, theistic, morality-based "white-light" religious path would be akin to a lion resenting a gazelle for not being a lion. Water has to seek its own level, after all.

I dislike religion because:

It often inspires people to deny and ignore their lives, their bodies, their minds, and their natural instincts. So, you get nuts like St. Symeon of Stylites mortifying their flesh, and homosexuals seeking "treatment." Even worse, it inspires groups and religious authorities to encourage or force others to deny and ignore their fleshy forms and natural urges.

It inspires mob mentaility and herd conformity. "Pastor says it, I believe it!" In turn, religion often inspires people to disregard or ignore personal experience, common sense, scientific evidence, and objective observations.

Religion can encourage or allow escapism, avoidance, and black and white thinking, so that people can flee from answering Big Questions and avoid seeking authentic purpose and meaning. "Everything I need to know or think about is in The Book, and every response to every moral or personal problem is in The Book, too!"

It can inspire people to proselytize and act obnoxious, and it can encourage people to legislate their moral and subjective personal views. Naturally, religion can also inspire people to commit atrocities of various sorts in order to "preserve" or "uphold" the faith.

Religion champions a fervent belief in things unproven and unseen, and encourages people to pursue spiritual pipe dreams, at the expense of things seen and proven.

The majority of religions champion, in whole or in part, wishy-washy slave moralities that advocate for turning the other cheek and the like. Many religions--or, at the least, certain sects of various religions-champion irrational, unhealthy, unnatural ideas and practices such as child abuse, animal sacrifice, oppression of certain groups or individuals, mortification of the flesh, and compulsive abstinence.

Once again, most people would be lost without some kind of ideology to guide and direct them, and that's just laughable and pathetic.

Religion allows assholes to polish goodguy badges, and provides a screen for various types of brigands, psychopaths, cowards, hypocrities, and crazies to hide behind with pride. Religion allows certain individuals to carry out personal vendettas and plans using lofty, self-satisfied spiritual rationalizations, and such rationalizations make such people even more determined and dangerous.

Oh, and I like your Kimba the White Lion avatar.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#171276 - 06/18/06 01:16 PM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: TrojZyr]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
One Hell of a post, TrojZyr; an excellent breakdown of the issue. But one line in particular practically LEAPED off the screen:

Quote:

For me to resent a non-Satanist for seeking a standard, theistic, morality-based "white-light" religious path would be akin to a lion resenting a gazelle for not being a lion.




Bravo. That's one of the most perfectly-distilled insights on this topic I've ever seen.

-Chess

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#171277 - 06/18/06 01:59 PM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: Svengali]
WolfMoon Offline


Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 735
Quote:

We don't have to "bash" Jihadists verbally, we have Satanists in uniform in Iraq KILLING them!




Heh. Good point.

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#171278 - 06/18/06 02:03 PM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: Bill_M]
WolfMoon Offline


Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 735
Quote:

I think it's natural for many Satanists, particularly those new to identifying themselves as such, to do a lot of religion bashing. And it can certainly be a fun thing sometimes. I enjoy witty forms of blasphemy as much as the next Satanist. Hell, I typically start my show every week with a bit of religion-bashing humor.

But I imagine the compulsive sort of religon bashing is rooted in having some sort of emotional ties to those religions.




I totally agree. When I first read the Satanic Bible about 10 years ago it was a natural phase for me to focus on the "rebellious" aspect, but I moved on, that isn't my goal. I am in no way stating that we as Satanists should be tolerant of religions like Christianity. My point was simply to not be fixated on it. As the good docter said, "indulgence not compulsion". Furthermore, it should also be acknowledged that these types of slave religions will always exist in some form for the bottom of the food chain. To seperate the sheep from the wolves. Their worst punishment is sometimes their own faith.

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#171279 - 06/18/06 03:03 PM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: TrojZyr]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
You know- I always enjoyed your posts, but to this particular reply I must say- well done!
Perfectly written.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#171280 - 06/18/06 05:25 PM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: WolfMoon]
Illuminatus Offline


Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 148
Loc: Hellsinki, Finland
I must admit I enjoy bashing christians and pointing out the faults in their "logic" and watch them squirm. But the constant compulsive bashning as presented by the Freethinkers here is quite stupid in my opinion. People who think that stupid people have no other problems than their religion and that without it they would be great minds are just absurd. To me, religion isn't a reason for stupidity but a symptom of it.
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Yoda was wrong, we are this crude matter.

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#171281 - 06/18/06 06:14 PM Stratification [Re: TrojZyr]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
Quote:

For me to resent a non-Satanist for seeking a standard, theistic, morality-based "white-light" religious path would be akin to a lion resenting a gazelle for not being a lion.




I agree with Chess; that was brilliantly stated, and I shall remember that simile and steal it for future use. Don't sue Me... I shall say "As a wise friend of Mine said..."

Generally, My take has been "well, we need the slaves, after all". Without the herd as a point for comparison, we'd still be downright cool, very effective at what we choose to do, etc, but, by definition, we wouldn't be élite any more. And being élite is fun. And yes, of course then we'd further stratify into our own levels of brilliance, which is all well and good... But frankly, we already have that within ourselves, and it's good to have "the peasantry" way below us to be opressed, and serve us with their mindless milling herd nature.

I'm with Nietzsche on this one: The religious nature itself, if not the religion per se is to be encouraged, even amongst the stupid and ignorant (I stray a little from Nietzsche here, as I personally am happy for the religion itself to be promoted also - Just needs a few things ironing out, generally the atrocities that most religions endorse - Without them, they'd be perfect slaves).

Amongst ourselves, the Alien Élite, Nietzsche's Übermensch(en), we can put our own religious nature to good use. Then, it's just a matter of putting their religious nature to good use... To us.

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#171282 - 06/18/06 06:34 PM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: WolfMoon]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Bashing their religion only make them get in “alert mode”. Which for them means closing their minds even more than before and finding refuge in the mechanical repeating of their bible verses.

Instead, I like to find a little crack in their armor and sneak my way in.

My personal method for doing that is humor. I wouldn’t write a blatantly “anti Christian” comic; It would be counterproductive. But I insert my little Satanic message in the plot of my stories.

I hope I can make people laugh… and at the same time make them think.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#171283 - 06/18/06 06:36 PM Humour [Re: Old_Pig]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
1) Your comics are great. I know you know this already, but hey.

2) I don't know about other white light religions, but I've found that a lot of Christians are actually quite open to humour regarding their chosen religion.

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#171284 - 06/18/06 07:18 PM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: Old_Pig]
Happy Birthday pitzi_83 Offline


Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Israel
I use humor to open them up and soften them.
Then I play the "Convertable" role.

I wait for an Irrational explenation and question it. easy easy.
I continue with this tactic until they fear me due to the
questions of disbelief I plant in them against their god.

I remember sitting with a Rabbi once and making him
so uncomfortable in that manor, that he couldn't look me in
the eyes.
I learned this method from my father.

Sometimes, it's so much fun I think it's a sin.
(Drumroll)

Seriously now. I only bash religious groups of one kind or the
other if they pose a threat to me or harm me in any way.
Same as I would to any other enemy, religious or not.

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#171285 - 06/18/06 07:42 PM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: Old_Pig]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11552
Loc: New England, USA
>>Bashing their religion only make them get in “alert
>>mode”. Which for them means closing their minds even
>>more than before and finding refuge in the mechanical
>>repeating of their bible verses.

An analogy I once heard is that while religion is crutch for these people, trying to lean in and kick away that crutch will only make them cling to it tighter.

>>I hope I can make people laugh… and at the
>>same time make them think.

I must say that your work is a refreshing difference to a lot of this "all shock, no wit" stuff that passes for "humor" these days. I suppose it all goes back to the Satanic power of comedy, something LaVey wrote about in his essay The Whoopee Cushion Shall Rise Again. Humor itself is the antithesis of the sacred, pretentious, and pious. From a very early age I learned that one really well-executed sarcastic remark can uproot an entire institution of thought.

Of course when anger against religion gets counter-productive and all too consuming, well that's why we have psychodramas like Le Mess Noir at our disposal. But I certainly feel that the right comedy can serve as that "black mass" for many. Of course I tend to go for audio rather than a visual medium, but I think the idea is the same.
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#171286 - 06/18/06 08:13 PM Re: Bashing other religions [Re: Chess]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Thank you sir.

The credit for the idea underlying the metaphor goes to Professor Sinister, though, who doesn't seem to post here much anymore. He narrated this lovely little story once about a gazelle who wants to be a lion and the lion who humors her, and needless to say, it goes badly.

Tha Pig sez:

Instead, I like to find a little crack in their armor and sneak my way in.

My personal method for doing that is humor. I wouldn’t write a blatantly “anti Christian” comic; It would be counterproductive. But I insert my little Satanic message in the plot of my stories.

I hope I can make people laugh… and at the same time make them think.


Exactly. Humor is a wonderful tool for breaking down people's usual defenses and getting them to chill out and/or think.

You're absolutely right that most people go into "alert mode" if you try to harp at them.

"Captain, the sensors have picked up an incoming lecture off the port bow!" "Raise the defensive shields, and put our fingers in our ears and go 'Na na na na, I can't hear you,' Mr. Sulu!"

Nobody likes a lecture or criticism. Sure, there are times to appeal to people with logic and reason, but those tools only go so far, and humor can often go even further. But, even then, you have to be very careful if you plan on actually appealing to the audience you want to make fun of, because if people come to feel like too much of the humor is at their expense, they'll get offended, and the shields will go up.

Oh, and I agree with Lingua that, depending on the topic and depending on the Christians, Christians are actually moderately hang-loose about humor at their expense, especially if you compare them with Muslims and various types of Pagans in that department. There's a great Christian humor magazine called "The Wittenburg Door" (known just as "The Door"), and they poke fun at each other and themselves constantly. (They especially love to mock the Left Behind Guys, televangelists, megachurches, and Kirk Cameron).

Lingua sez:
Generally, My take has been "well, we need the slaves, after all". Without the herd as a point for comparison, we'd still be downright cool, very effective at what we choose to do, etc, but, by definition, we wouldn't be élite any more. And being élite is fun.

Yes, being elite is fun!

But, as you noted, it wouldn't be as cut-and-dry as all that. The "elite" would simply be the absolute best of the best. It would be harder to be considered elite, but the concept would still exist.

Not to mention, in the end, the real goal should be to compare oneself with oneself, no? (Not that being smug about being better than scores of scumbags isn't fun and isn't good for morale, because it certainly is.)

But, I think you're right that we do need certain types of people in society to hold everything together. We need people who adhere to a slave morality in order to hold various social contracts together. We need menial laborers who'll work at McDonalds or clean floors. We need spunky social activists to challenge the status quo that we ourselves just usually navigate around. And, I for one would become quite fatigued if I always had to use my best Lesser Magic techniques on everyone around me, so it's a blessing to me that not everyone is rapier-sharp and eagle-eyed.

Just needs a few things ironing out, generally the atrocities that most religions endorse - Without them, they'd be perfect slaves).

I do think many things need to be "ironed out." Many liberal theologies in various religions are helping to do that, by promoting humanism, pragmatism, and science, but encouraging "spirituality" and community. They are thankfully filing down the sharp fangs of religion, but letting the beast itself live.

I don't think it's as cut-and-dry as "slaves vs. masters," because of how complex most people are. (Though, don't get me wrong, I do think there is a sizeable class of people who I'd call "sheep" or "slaves" without hesitation.) The theologians and scholars I mentioned previously are/were generally pretty sharp, and while I think my view of the world is superior to theirs in the end, I don't necessarily consider them total rubes, either. It's why I say that some people are merely nonsatanic, while others are flagrantly unsatanic. Don't underestimate the power, intelligence, or the usefulness of nonsatanic people.

And, while many people do have use to us, especially in certain situations, I am not fixated on "tool use." If I need someone to act as a tool in the moment, I take the steps to make it happen. But, for the most part, I'm quite content to wish people well in their own endeavors and happiness in their own lives, just as I want them to do with me. Even when I use people, I try to leave them "intact" as much as is appropriate and possible; most people who've been "used" by me for some end would probably report that I made them feel happy, humored, or appreciated in some way, so the deal is usually reciprocal in some fashion.

While I often wish many more people would die so as to free up more resources and more room on the planet, I don't necessarily wish most average people actual ill will in the form of profound, needless, or extreme suffering. (If they do it to themselves, well, then, that's their problem, and I'll reserve my right to snicker and sneer if they sabotage themselves in a really stupid or really obnoxious way.) When it comes to most religionists, I just want them to find purpose, meaning, wisdom, dignity, satisfaction and a genuinely good life while walking their path in life; I want them to be useful to me and pleasant towards me when I need them to be; and I want them to stay out of my hair and other people's beeswax.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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