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#171787 - 06/20/06 03:15 AM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: The_Lightning]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10133
Curious fact: I have never in my entire life had what might be termed a "good dream." I either have nightmares, or dreams that are simply bizarre. The nightmares, by the way, have also never frightened me or caused me to wake up. They are simply what I see in sleep.

I've also never been aware that I was dreaming, even though the dreams are fantastic and obviously unreal. My mind totally immerses and does not cognate, only views. Perhaps that's also why the nightmares have never bothered me.

I turn some of my nightmares into fiction; others are too nonsensical to even contemplate writing down.

Unless you're one of the few I've thus far permitted to read my fiction, you won't likely hear of the subjects of my dreams; most of them wouldn't make sense anyway.

As for repetition, I've never had the same dream twice, or even particularly recurring themes (unless madness or unreality counts as a recurring theme).
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#171788 - 06/20/06 03:34 AM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: The_Lightning]
Grima Offline


Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Netherlands
I'm a lucid dreamer so most of the time I am in complete control and see my dream world as a canvas on which I work my will. It's great visualisation and I get better at it year after year.
I'm fully aware whilst dreaming although when I am physically really tired I do have what could be calles regular dreams.
I'm still aware that I'm dreaming but I have less or absolutely no control, a bit like riding a roller-coaster which can be fun or truly annoying (not all dreams are interesting).
Nightmares are just that when I'm physically tired; they feel completely real including smell and touch and I have a hard time knowing whether it's real or not since my nightmares have very normal themes and no monsters out to get me or other strange things.
Needless to say I make sure I get enough rest although nowadays ninety-nine percent of my dreams all are lucid.

There are definitely archetypes but what form they take depends on the individual and his/her background, culture etc.

I have never ever dreamed about witchhunts although fire did and still does play an important role.
In my dreams, when I was a lot younger, it consumed me and I woke up bathed in sweat every time. Fear of hellfire? Who knows? I was raised christian after all or maybe it stood for my own energy which was being wasted.

These nightmares eventually became less frequent as I grew older and discovered my path in life.
It no longer burns me but is 'stuck' around my body like a shield and I can control it like it is a part of me.

I believe dreams are very important but as with everything in life every person decides for him/herself what matters. Nobody dreams the same things since we are all individuals.

As for the tarot I cannot comment on that for I have never used it nor felt the need to do so.

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#171789 - 06/20/06 03:48 AM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: The_Lightning]
Rasputin Offline


Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Israel
Interesting thread.
I pondered a couple of times about the statement that "Satanists are born, not made". I thought it was one of the sympthoms of the fall-down of the CoS. Later, I understood the statement is true. We all born Satanist- the Jew, The Muslim, The Xtian and of course- the Satanist. The trick is to keep the Satanism within you. If we consider my statement and add to that the following opinion: I think that a real Satanist won't dream about being outsider, simply 'cus he don't give a fuck, than I'll say that your dream is very interesting, but it might carry some other explanations within.
Tarot- It's funny that when I'm interested in something, the whole universe tries to help me with knowning more about the subject. First, I got from the library this cool fantasy book by Piers Anthony named Tarot. Then there was this cool University lection about the Norse Runes, and now this thread! It's rather interesting, I never tried divination through I was supposed to- like it says in the study program of the Choas fraternity in Liber Null, oh well. I should probably try I-Ching or something.
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#171790 - 06/20/06 04:17 AM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: tovasshi]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Tovasshi--
Quote:

I don't analyze my dreams, I just enjoy them.



Enjoying them is great, but why not interpret them? Why do you think they exist?

Bill M--
Just to make sure we are on the same line of thought- repeating dreams are very rare; I meant repeating theme with different motives in them.
And you see- my mother is an art therapist, and through interpreting symbols in children's paintings (that the meaning behind them was of course completely subconscious) she managed to help countless kids. So through my education I learned to believe that people use similar symbols for the same emotional\mental problems. Of course it depends on the context, like you said- an howl may symbolize something completely different to you because of personal experience, but it is more likely to have the same meaning most people give to it. (it might be that your mind is using daily motives as symbols as well..)
I don't think interpreting other people's subconscious's symbols would be possible if we didn't all have some basic joint symbols.
But I guess eventually it's down to what you believe in, I personally really like Freud and Jung.

OminousFixation:
Quote:

I've had one re-occuring dream that may resemble a witch hunt theme. It involves me standing on a large cliff face, and being cornered by a mob of angry people with torches and what not. They force me off the edge and as I'm falling,




Yes, this IS witch-hunt theme. Avery theme of being some sort of unwanted alien would be considered a sort of witch-hunt.
Btw- this dream is awesome =D =P
And about the cards- I never gave them more meaning than a game, but it's a useful game.


I'm still wondering is the motives of being alienated and having a prey vs predator dreams aren't more common\powerful amongst Satanist than others. but now that I come to think of it- this requires a deep research, a thread won't do it.

I'm also wondering if the fact that you all ignored my question about other ways of researching the subconscious means that… you don't?
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#171791 - 06/20/06 04:23 AM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: Rasputin]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Quote:

"Satanists are born, not made". I thought it was one of the sympthoms of the fall-down of the CoS. Later, I understood the statement is true.




Quote:

It's funny that when I'm interested in something, the whole universe tries to help me with knowning more about the subject.




Same here, in both cases.

I actually noticed you wrote about the meanings of symbols and the subconscious in some other thread, and it encouraged me to delve into it since it has been of great interest to me too.
I'd love to hear about things you learned on the subject lately.
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#171792 - 06/20/06 05:12 AM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: Grima]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Fascinating.. Did you practice having lucid dreams or is this a natural ability?

And I can really relate to the dream of being consumed by fire and then being able to control it, especially as a girl who was born with ADHD that later became a mild ADD.
Talking about symbolization- fire is defiantly a strong one amongst rebels and forceful people, not only dream-wise.


HS
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#171793 - 06/20/06 05:43 AM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: The_Lightning]
ElJago Offline


Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Northumberland, England
My dreams (when I can remember them, which isn't very often) tend to be completely surreal or quite disturbing.

I have periods where I have repetitive dreams (most common of all being in a social situation and suddenly realising I am naked from the waist down, I'm sure many freudians can come up with an explanation for that one !) and periods where I sometimes have disturbing or violent dreams (I am usually a detached observer of events in these dreams I'm not sure why, any jungians out there may have an interesting explanation for this).

As for tarot cards my partner has collected a few different designs of decks over the years, and sometimes does readings more so she can stay in practice more than anything else.

I used to have a recurring dream when I was a young kid, I would find myself at the top of the staircase of my parents house, and would suddenly feel compelled to throw myself down it, upon which I would suddenly begin to slowly float head first down the stairs coming to halt on my feet at the bottom. These dreams were very vivid (I can still clearly recall them today) and there was always the feeling I was being observed or "guided" by.......something I have no idea what.
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Man: An animal so lost in rapturous comtemplation of what he thinks he is as to overlook what he indubitably ought to be - Ambrose Bierce - The Devil's Dictionary.

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said, "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Lewis Carroll, Through the looking glass.

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#171794 - 06/20/06 06:21 AM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: ElJago]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Quote:

I have periods where I have repetitive dreams (most common of all being in a social situation and suddenly realising I am naked from the waist down, I'm sure many freudians can come up with an explanation for that one !)



This is one of the most common dreams- as I wrote before- the situation of being naked in front of a crowd is dreamt almost by everyone at least once. It indicates of having a dark secret than one may be ashamed if it would be revealed in public. Otherwise it should symbolize a great feeling of vulnerability and fear of being judged.
The context of the dream in your like is very significant.

Quote:

I used to have a recurring dream when I was a young kid, I would find myself at the top of the staircase of my parents house, and would suddenly feel compelled to throw myself down it, upon which I would suddenly begin to slowly float head first down the stairs coming to halt on my feet at the bottom. These dreams were very vivid




This dream is common as well, fitting into the falling\flying dreams. I recall having a few dreams of "floating" down the stairs of my house as well.
As far as I remember those dreams symbolize fear of loosing your way, fear of being detached from "safe grounds"- which I think goes hand in hand with the symbolic meaning of "home"—comfort, protection, warmth, safety etc…
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#171795 - 06/20/06 08:24 AM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: The_Lightning]
Rasputin Offline


Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Israel
Well the last thing I realized about that matter that Psychology will definetly be included as a course on my side-project program at the Universirty. My knowledge of the subject is rather shallow (the official documents I read were Jung's book mentioned by you and his essay about archetypes named 'Wotan' <Odin>), but it still managed to keep me facinated with the human psyche.
Another thing is that Jung helped in shaping some kind of Magickal Model, consciously or not. He studied alchemy, and his saying that Hitler was posessed in a sort of way by Odin made me wonder a lot about Invocations, Evocations and the whole Ceremonial Magick thing. It gave me confidence in my work, and the world a new model which differs from the whole Spirit/Energy stuff before.
Dreams. Dreams are our own myths. By writing them (as almost every Magick book initial order) we are writing our own "Poetic Edda", "Iliad", "Odyssey", "Veda" etc. Although now it's a good time to mention that my personal myths are rather boring, and I only write them because I'm training myself to have lucid dreams more commonly.
Symbols. I discovered about the importance of symbols when I got interested in a Magickal system of Austin Osman Spare. Basically, what he did was: shaped his own symbol (the symbol was a synthesis made by the letters that composed his wish), than he charged the sigil via a method of gnosis, alternative state of conscious, and basicaly made a complex in his mind. Some of the scarry looking symbols we encounter in the Occult are not the manifestetion of the inferno comics society we tought them to be, they are composed by magickal squares for example (like the sigils in the grimoire of Solom the King). At this point I think that the whole Collective UnConscious theory would feet perfectly, since our Unconscious sees the meaning behihd the symbol. Another manifestation of the Unconscious powers can be observed by the tricks mental-magicians are using- Derren Brown is a good example for that.
_________________________
"What do you mean? "Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is morning to be good on?" (Gandalf, The Hobbit- J. R. R. Tolkien)

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#171796 - 06/20/06 08:41 AM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: The_Lightning]
ninhursag_ki Offline


Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 84
Loc: The Deep South
[[I was wondering, if perhaps Satanists have similar dreams?
I assume many Satanists had repetitive dreams about witch-hunts.]]
** ?? No.

[[I wanted to ask you all about the usage of tarot cards as means of exploring the subconscious: .. I am talking about tarot readings that only refer to the present situation.]]
** I use the tarot as a meditative device, not for divination. For me it has worked out very well. I use many different decks (as a collector, I have about 42 of them), so depending on my mood, I will 'turn the page'.

[[What means do you use to explore to your subconscious? Are there specific meditations you found useful?]]
** Dreams, awareness, being in the Now, but mostly, honestly.


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#171797 - 06/20/06 11:28 AM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: The_Lightning]
LightSnake Offline


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 49
Quote:

I assume many Satanists had repetitive dreams about witch-hunts [...]Is this assumption correct?




As I described a while ago in a previous discussion of lucid dreaming, this is very true for me, being a recurrent nightmare of my childhood. Many denizens of Oneirostan don't like it when you know you're dreaming, and don't like it when you do dream-'magic'--you just have to get good at whupping 'em down.


Quote:

[...] a man with a head of the wolf, who stood in the middle of the road and stared at me. [...] it made me feel as though I can never run of hide from it- I can only join it.




You have a second 'hit', at least with me.

I did have a life changing dream, several years ago, in three acts--

--Finding a door left open in my house, one which I hadn't seen before.
--Same door found open again, with an eyeless, mouth-less dog left inside the room.
--The door open a third time, but now with a giant wolf's head totem, with exaggerated eyes and mouth, screaming to be let in.

The symbolisms of mysterious extra rooms, blind/mute animals, etc. are right up the Jungian alley, if you've read his works on dreams. The subsequent changes in my life which with this dream resonated were several, but an important one here was accepting aggressiveness as a natural principle of life, with capacity for constructiveness, not just destructiveness, in the right context and manner. (Also, I gradually had a complete change of body type.)


Quote:

What means do you use to explore to your subconscious?




I occasionally do something like Jungian 'active imagination', although I got the idea from Dali.

Sometimes, when dealing with the subconscious, you should just ask, boldly and directly. Just sit right down on the floor, and demand, "What's up!?!". I have gotten great responses this way.

--LightSnake
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#171798 - 06/20/06 11:40 AM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: Rasputin]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Quote:

Well the last thing I realized about that matter that Psychology will definetly be included as a course on my side-project program at the Universirty.



From what I learned in high school- you won't be disappointed.

Quote:

and his saying that Hitler was possessed in a sort of way by Odin made me wonder a lot about Invocations, Evocations and the whole Ceremonial Magick thing.



I heard countless theories on Hitler being into Occult. some serious literature was written on the subject.

Quote:

shaped his own symbol (the symbol was a synthesis made by the letters that composed his wish), than he charged the sigil via a method of gnosis, alternative state of conscious, and basicaly made a complex in his mind. Some of the scarry looking symbols we encounter in the Occult are not the manifestetion of the inferno comics society we tought them to be, they are composed by magickal squares for example (like the sigils in the grimoire of Solom the King).



I read about this technique in a chaos magic article. It is one of the most interesting methods I read about so far.

Thanks for the great reply!
HS!
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#171799 - 06/20/06 12:15 PM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: The_Lightning]
Catalyst Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 792
Loc: Atwater, Ohio
I have a question about something that kind of goes along the same lines as sleep and dreaming and so-on. Has anybody else ever started falling asleep in bed and all of a sudden felt like you just stopped breathing, almost like your mind forgot to send the signal? This happens to me on occasion, especially last night it happened about 7 or 8 times in a row. I started falling asleep, was just about there, and all of a sudden I was wide awake and trying to breathe again- as if I had just stopped all together for a brief period of time. I was just wondering if someone knows what causes this, is it all in my mind, is there something wrong, or what? It just happened, like I said, last night, and before that it hadnt happened in a few months.
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#171800 - 06/20/06 12:16 PM "books" [Re: The_Lightning]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
Quote:

Why not?




Simply because that could bring you on a wrong path.

how could they "dissect" your dream for you ?
Asking this question, I couldn't imagine the possibility.

Quote:

I assumed many Satanists would have witch-hunt dreams.





Well, Satanists are not martyrs. I don't see why this would happen to MANY ones.


Edited by Assabrah (06/20/06 12:25 PM)
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#171801 - 06/20/06 12:18 PM Re: Dreams, Tarot Cards and more [Re: Catalyst]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8876
http://www.sleepapnea.org/info/index.html

You have sleep apnea, most likely "central sleep apnea".

See a physician.


Edited by Daark (06/20/06 12:21 PM)

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