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#173519 - 06/30/06 08:21 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Quote:

Well, I'm pretty open minded. But assuming that it was possible to employ remote viewing to gain knowledge, on the original subject the Dogon's limited knowledge again suggests that it would be mighty weird for them to have gained the cosmic power of the universe to know all things, yet mostly just used this to find an invisible parasite star. You know, instead of world domination or at least something useful to them.




Yeah- but perhaps they never new how to use this power- they had visions they couldn't explain when they meditated on stars. Perhaps they never knew they can use the same sort of "remote viewing" for other causes.
Of course- this is all an assumption, I'm just making the point that there are endless explanations.
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#173520 - 06/30/06 09:59 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Speaking of alien conspiracies, 98 years ago today, something really fucking big blew up over Tunguska, Siberia.

The interesting thing is that this huge explosion killed only one person, because it was in Siberia. Had it been over a metropolitan area, say Paris, it would have easily ranked as the most fatal single event of the 20th century.

Bizarre theories abound concerning just what it was, but a carbonaceous meteor fits the evidence a lot better than an alien nuke. Nukes tend to leave, you know, radiation. But hey, if it was an alien weapon, at least we know they like us enough to only blow up Siberia.

Joking aside, it really is one of the more mysterious events in recorded history as far as science is concerned, probably due to a lack of equipment/technology, not to mention that nobody even then much cared what happened in Siberia, and the Russians had much bigger fish to fry in those days, delaying any investigation by years. Let's just hope another one doesn't find a landing site closer to home!
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173521 - 06/30/06 10:59 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
luciferHammer Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 242
Quote:

(assuming the spaceship achieves something like 25%-50% the speed of light, an extremely high figure; even at the speed of light its a few dozen to a few hundred million years).




Not right. Some of the planets recently discovered are maybe 10 light-years from earth. Are fast is the passage from one layer of electron to another of an atom. Nobody knows. Just imagine!

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#173522 - 06/30/06 11:45 AM Re: data [Re: Nemo]
luciferHammer Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 242
New social dimensions will bring new theories. Satanist, with its free will, will bring researchers to look and test theories differing from all those found during this social entanglement known as Christianity (protestanist). Just imagine!

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#173523 - 06/30/06 11:53 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: luciferHammer]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Almost all extra-solar planets we currently know about are gas giant planets in close orbit with their star, very unlikely candidates for life.

Even if they weren't already so disqualified, even optimistic outlooks on how common life in the universe is would imply that it is highly unlikely that our "near neighbors" also have life; it would be like two next door neighbors both winning the lottery separately.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173524 - 06/30/06 01:13 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Even though I take Carl Sagan with a grain of salt, he did have a very interesting idea of what life on a gas giant would be like if it were to be found.

This can be found in his book Cosmos. I am not sure what page it is on.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

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“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#173525 - 06/30/06 02:51 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Discipline]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Let me guess, it breathes hydrogen, has a body that is comprised mostly of a gigantic gas bladder, and has tentacles or locomotion and feeding?
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"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#173526 - 06/30/06 03:48 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
luciferHammer Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 242
Sorry to disagree again, but scientifics have found a new technique based on the distortion of light to find smaller planet, much smaller than those big gas giants which were discovered by gravitational wobble recorded from the nearby star. This is a good start : http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=104243

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#173527 - 06/30/06 07:06 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: luciferHammer]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
You're not disagreeing, you're pointing out things I've left unsaid. I said "most of the planets" because I was aware of that we have recently begun finding smaller planets.

It does not, by the way, negate my point in any significant fashion. The odds of life existing on another planet near to earth are less than the odds of you and your uncle winning the lottery separately.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173528 - 06/30/06 07:08 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

Yes, it is "possible" that we are a science project for ET, but that's "possible" in the same sense that it's possible that a giant spook put us here. You can't prove it's not true because you can't prove a negative (most of the time), but that's as far as it goes. The "validity" of ancient texts as evidence applies equally well to most religious books.




No, it is not the same. Christianity and other religions after that, took alot from the Sumerians and Egyptians. Primarily, the Sumerians. These cultures were way ahead of their time and knew alot of things they should not have known. I'm not putting any validity in the interpretation of ancient texts by ancient astronaut theorists. I'm going by the extremely advance complex structures that were built by these people and their possible motivations for doing so.


Quote:

The Dogon are interesting. There is some skeptical belief that Europeans introduced them to their belief in Sirius, but it seems like strange knowledge to me for a European to care to share with savages. I say the jury is out on that one.




I know. It does not make any sense why they would share such things with them. And exactly what time period was it assumed that the Europeans gave them this knowledge? If it was during the 1920's or after, then it would be very likely although it still wouldn't make sense why they would share this info. If it was before this star was discovered then we have to figure out how the Europeans knew!



Quote:

I, however, tend to look for the simplest explanation for things, even if I'm making radical speculation.




Yes, but not every explaination is simple!

Quote:

I think it far more likely (even if still unlikely, strictly speaking) that the ancients had more knowledge than we credit them with




I agree. I don't underestimate the intelligence or potential of primitive and advanced ancient cultures either.


Quote:

Two options:

a) An ancient civilization achieved high enough technology to build a telescope. Highly unlikely, but at least it only requires that we have a gap in our knowledge of history.




Yes...very unlikely. No ancient telescopes were found to date. An ancient battery dating about 2500 BCE was found in Baghdad. So who knows? Archaeologists are still finding many anomalies.


Quote:

b) Aliens told them. Requires that we stipulate that there are aliens, that they singled out a bunch of savages to share their wisdom with, and that this wisdom was the location of a parasitic star, as opposed to something useful like the formula for steel, or agricultural techniques, or maybe the wheel...




It wasn't only one star. There is another one that they know about which is being referred to as "Sirius C". The existance of this other star still has not been confirmed. If they were right about Sirius B, maybe they could be right about this one too. If this was all true, I would assume the ET's motivations would be all about control over humans, not enlightening them too much. If they were studying humans, perhaps they knew which had the most potential and who would be the best slaves and delt which each civilization as such.


Edited by Carkosa (06/30/06 08:02 PM)

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#173529 - 06/30/06 07:42 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
There may be a chance of finding life in our solar system. At the extreme depths of the ocean near volcanic vents there are places where bacteria fix sulpher to make energy. The cores of Neptune and Uranus are basically rock underneath oceans thousands of miles deep. Now... The interesting thing about water. Under such extreme pressure it has to be a liquid at 4 degrees C. This is a stretch, but it may be possible that there are vents and heat near the rocky surfaces of Neptune and Uranus that could support life. I also have to admit at this point that my knowledge of the properties of silicates under that kind of pressure is non-existant, so I could be way off base, but it's an intriguing idea that's not often considered.

Edit: Did some research. There's actually a layer of Methane ice under the water, so no life there, but there's always the moons of other planets to look at and let's not forget Mars.


Edited by ModernTantalus (06/30/06 07:49 PM)

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#173530 - 07/01/06 05:11 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:

If this was all true, I would assume the ET's motivations would be all about control over humans, not enlightening them too much.




Really? By the sound of what information may have been given by these hypothetical Sirians, I would assume that they were stuck here on earth for repairs for a short time and decided to share some useless information. They don't seem to have contacted the Dogon any more recently then they passed on the info about their star system, and it doesn't seem like they worked very hard at making any kind of formal religion. I would say that any religious feelings the Dogon have toward these Sirians would be more akin to a cargo cult than anything else (assuming the alien theory is true).
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#173531 - 07/01/06 11:00 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: luciferHammer]
Catalyst Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 792
Loc: Atwater, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

(assuming the spaceship achieves something like 25%-50% the speed of light, an extremely high figure; even at the speed of light its a few dozen to a few hundred million years).




Not right. Some of the planets recently discovered are maybe 10 light-years from earth. Are fast is the passage from one layer of electron to another of an atom. Nobody knows. Just imagine!




Lets not forget that speed may well not be the only way to travel through space for these creatures. Lets assume that they also have the ability to open up wormholes, which, if aliens are so sdvanced, this could be a fair possibility. They would then not have to be traveling very fast at all to reach our planet. With a wormhole, it would be possible to make it to Pluto from here in just a few seconds, minutes at most!
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#173532 - 07/01/06 11:40 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
luciferHammer Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 242
But it is important to define what you consider life. By intuition, I think the odd of finding alien bacterias are much more better than finding complex life forms, ever more intelligent life forms. An interesting article on the subject can be found there :

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/2c21c0f98d07b010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

Likely, the information we have about what can make a planet habitable is quite thin, since only the 9-10 planets in our solar system can be considered somehow well understood. But since out of those planets, 1 is habitable, 1 (Mars) is likely to have some ingredient for it, and also if we add moons, Titan would be a strong candidate if it wasn't so far from the sun, and considering the number of stars not so far from us, in term of light years, I think the odds of finding another earth nearby is not that low. Something whose odd is low, thought, is that of ascertaining the habitability of one extra solar planet with some degree of certitude.

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