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#173414 - 06/25/06 09:42 AM Extraterrestrials
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Some of you may consider this topic to be paranormal. I personaly do not believe in aliens. Given the fact that the universe has billions of stars and planets, I do however feel that it is a logical possibility. It is a great topic of interest for me and something that I have been reading about alot lately. Although there is no concrete proof, there is a small shred of evidence that raises the possibilty. The best possible evidence coming from ancient cultures.

Here is the most popular evidence that is constantly debated:

Crop Circles
This has already been debunked and it has been proven that they can be made by using planks of wood to flatten the crops to form patterns overnight or just in a couple of hours.

UFO Photography & Videos
Many of these photos and videos have been proven to be hoaxes and with current photoshop technology, there is no way that UFO photos can be believable. Every UFO video I have ever seen was extremely blurry, dark and unfocused.

Ancient and Medieval Art Depicting UFO's
Some of these are very debatable and can be interpreted in many different ways. Others are very compelling and convincing. Even though the source I'm giving is from a UFO site, keep in mind that all the art is genuine and not a hoax (with the exception of the Nepal disk which has been debunked as hoax).

Ufo Art

Here is another source that debunks that whole idea. Their explaination is that the UFO's in the paintings are not really UFO's but religious symbols that were common during that time.

Art & UFO's? No Thanks, Only Art

Ancient airplane models...

Ancient airplane

Ancient reptilian alien-like statues...
Reptilian aliens

Archaeological Anomalies

These are items that have been found embedded in places where they should not be. Either our carbon dating system is inaccurate or these things were left here by aliens thousands of years ago. Or intelligent humans date far back then we thought. I haven't done much research on this topic. It was something I just stumbled across so I can't say right now if it has been debunked as a hoax. If it is real, the best logical reason is that our carbon dating system is wrong.

Archaeological anomolies

The Nazca Lines of Peru
"The Nazca Lines are gigantic geoglyphs located in the Nazca Desert, a high arid plateau that stretches 53 miles between the towns of Nazca and Palpa on the Pampas de Jumana in Peru. They were created by the Nazca culture between 200 BC and 600 AD. There are hundreds of individual figures, ranging in complexity from simple lines to stylized hummingbirds, spiders, monkeys, and lizards. The Nazca lines cannot be recognized as coherent figures except from the air. Since it is presumed the Nazca people could never have seen their work from this vantage point, there has been much speculation on the builders' abilities and motivations."
Source

The Dogon People
The Dogon are a tribal people from Mali that worship ancestrial spirits called the Nommo. These gods are said to be amphibious, hermaphroditic, fish-like creatures. They believed Nommos were inhabitants of a world circling the star Sirius. The Dogon knew that Sirius had a companion star before it was discovered in the 1920's. It is impossible to see Sirius's companion star without a very powerful telescope and at the right time of Sirius B's orbit, which lasts several years. They also knew Saturn had rings and that jupiter had 4 moons. Only 4 moons can be seen with simple telescopes.

Ancient Astronaut theory
Ancient astronaut theory is a term used to describe the theories of ancient extraterrestrial contact being involved in some way with the origin or development of human culture. These theories often claim that human beings are either the descendants or creations of beings who landed on Earth millennia ago. Erich von Daniken and Zecharia Sitchin are best known for these theories. This is highly debatable being that it is all based on interpretation of ancient cunieform tablets.

The Mars Conspiracy
There are tons of conspiracy theories and speculation about the supposed "face" on Mars and what look like Artificial structures resembling pyramids and glass tunnels on Cydonia. Truth? We will never really know until NASA goes up there and digs. Until then, all of this is just going overboard and most of the photos I've seen don't look like that at all.

Any opinions or thoughts? When it comes to magic and the paranormal, Doktor LaVey stated that the energy required to levitate a teacup was sufficient enough to implant an idea to a group of people half way across the world. If the magician really did manage to levitate the teacup, it would be believed that he used trickery anyway. Suspend your disbelief for a moment and imagine if the Alien Autopsy video was real. If it were, would humans really accept it? It would be too fantastical to believe.

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#173415 - 06/25/06 12:28 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
Don't forget to mention

This Little Project
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#173416 - 06/25/06 02:16 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: man_mind]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

Don't forget to mention

This Little Project




Thanks. Of course! How can I forget SETI! I haven't really looked into this much. How does this exactly work?

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#173417 - 06/25/06 02:28 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
False_Messiah78 Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 1449
Loc: New York State
Basically, you allow SETI to use unused 'brainpower' on your computer to perform calcultaions. You have to downoad a program called BOINC (Berkley Open Interface Network C.... (forgot what the C is)).

All the information is on their website. Just click on the link in my signature.
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#173418 - 06/25/06 04:04 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: False_Messiah78]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
From what I've read so far, only one promising signal has been detected and that was on August 15, 1977. It lasted for 72 seconds and has not ever been detected again. It is referred to as The Wow! Signal. How active are you in this project and what are your expectations for it?

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#173419 - 06/25/06 04:32 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: man_mind]
WolfMoon Offline


Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 735
Quote:

Don't forget to mention

This Little Project




Thanks for that link. I was not aware of this.

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#173420 - 06/25/06 05:53 PM Re: Extraterrestrials?? [Re: Carkosa]
chimera Offline


Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 94
Loc: Sacramento, CA U.S.A.
Has anyone realized that to the rest of the entire universe, we are the BUG EYED MONSTERS. Next time you look into the mirror, smile and say ' woOOooh to yourself! '
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#173421 - 06/25/06 08:50 PM Re: Extraterrestrials?? [Re: chimera]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
One thing for sure though. All of the "captured footage" is blurry as hell.

Um, take a look in the Camera section at the store next time your in.

Blurry you say? How's that now?

(Edit Portion Here)

I'm not implying that E.T's don't exist, I am merely saying that no one has caught them on DVD, VHS, Beta, Camera Recorders, Audio Tape, and etc.

If they had, the quality would be FAR better than just a Smurf sized shit stain in the sky.


Edited by man_mind (06/26/06 12:29 PM)
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#173422 - 06/25/06 10:46 PM Here are one or two. More downstairs. [Re: Carkosa]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
(1) The circadian "day" of a human being when placed in a mineshaft for a few weeks is not that of the 24 hour earth day. What planet day does it precisely match?

(2) What Egyptian dolmen structure not only has the usual alignment with the solstices and equinoxes but also proprotionately identifies the precise distance in light years between a number of distant stars ... distances only recently discovered in the last few years through modern astronomy?

(2.a.) Why would anyone thousands of year ago think it was important to map out the distances between stars like that?

The Shroud of the Unknown forum in the members-only forums discusses these and other such curiosities.

I should add that some of the debunking you mentioned was flawed.

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#173423 - 06/25/06 11:22 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: False_Messiah78]
Z3ro3X Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/30/03
Posts: 186
SETI@HOME is a waste of time if you ask me. The other projects with BOINC seem more productive. You'd be better off giving up some CPU time helping with the biological projects and help find cures to stuff then the off chance of finding a radio signal from some aliens who probably don't give a rats ass about us any way.

It's not that I'm questioning the existence of aliens. But even if in some chance in hell we pick up a signal it would have taken so long to get to use... Well any way with our current level of technology it would be dumb to expect any kind of real time communications with our neighbors. There's also the assumption that they wouldn't mind sharing technology with a race as primitive as ours.

Most likely senario is they're more advance and have rules of not interfearing and would just ignore us if we sent them a signal or they're at our level or more primitive. At which case still wouldn't do us any good.

You're better off improving the quality of life here and now with medical research.

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#173424 - 06/26/06 11:37 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
ElJago Offline


Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Northumberland, England
Crop circles - yes a lot of crop circles are the work of artists, students, farmers etc with too much time on their hands. However a group of one of the most prominent circle creators were challenged to replicate some of the more complex and hugely elaborate patterns that have appeared with unerring regularity all over the world, (England seems to be a hot bed for circles even to this day).
Even with dozens of volunteers and all the time they needed they were unable to match the symetry and complexity of some of the larger circles, so I think to debunk the whole subject on the basis that there are a lot of hoaxs out there is a mistake.
There was a case in the mid 90's in wiltshire where a farmer was inspecting his fields he came across a huge complex crop circle hundreds of feet wide that had appeared in a field in a 25 minute period where the field was out of his sight. He asked labourers working nearby if they had seen any trespassers/vehicles etc in the field "absolutely not" was their reply. Investigators estimated it would have taken a large team of dozens of volunteers with vehicles HOURS to create a design of such size and complexity.
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Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said, "one can't believe impossible things."
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#173425 - 06/26/06 11:46 AM Re: Here are one or two. More downstairs. [Re: Nemo]
ElJago Offline


Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Northumberland, England
I've heard theories the "natural" human cycle so to speak has more in common with mars or an unknown planet sometimes refered to as Maldek that is now known in its more recent form the asteroid belt.
Yes there was another planet in our solar system apparently that was destroyed by some cataclysm or other, which may or may not have been our original "home" planet. whereupon we moved to mars, made a pigs ear of that planets once more hospitable environment and now here we are on earth making a dogs dinner of the environment here as well
I've read so many books, and heard so many different theories I find them all intruiging, amusing and fascinating at the same time.
_________________________
Man: An animal so lost in rapturous comtemplation of what he thinks he is as to overlook what he indubitably ought to be - Ambrose Bierce - The Devil's Dictionary.

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said, "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Lewis Carroll, Through the looking glass.

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#173426 - 06/26/06 02:38 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: ElJago]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

Crop circles - yes a lot of crop circles are the work of artists, students, farmers etc with too much time on their hands. However a group of one of the most prominent circle creators were challenged to replicate some of the more complex and hugely elaborate patterns that have appeared with unerring regularity all over the world, (England seems to be a hot bed for circles even to this day).
Even with dozens of volunteers and all the time they needed they were unable to match the symetry and complexity of some of the larger circles, so I think to debunk the whole subject on the basis that there are a lot of hoaxs out there is a mistake.




Because so many people are doing it with ease and great skill, it's hard to take the whole crop circle issue serious anymore.

Quote:

There was a case in the mid 90's in wiltshire where a farmer was inspecting his fields he came across a huge complex crop circle hundreds of feet wide that had appeared in a field in a 25 minute period where the field was out of his sight. He asked labourers working nearby if they had seen any trespassers/vehicles etc in the field "absolutely not" was their reply. Investigators estimated it would have taken a large team of dozens of volunteers with vehicles HOURS to create a design of such size and complexity.




Maybe they couldn't do it...however I have seen documenteries where people were making these very complex patterns in a couple of hours. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to dismiss the whole idea just yet. I'm sure there are exceptions. This is just one of those things, like UFO video and photography that is losing credibility. Do have any more info on this story? Any photos?

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#173427 - 06/26/06 04:01 PM Re: Here are one or two. More downstairs. [Re: Nemo]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

(1) The circadian "day" of a human being when placed in a mineshaft for a few weeks is not that of the 24 hour earth day. What planet day does it precisely match?




I have no idea. I'm going to guess it is either Mars or Venus.

Quote:

(2) What Egyptian dolmen structure not only has the usual alignment with the solstices and equinoxes but also proprotionately identifies the precise distance in light years between a number of distant stars ... distances only recently discovered in the last few years through modern astronomy?




I'm going to say the Sphyinx is the closest match because is not an isolated monument and it is always examined in the context of its surroundings. Like many of Egypt's monuments, it is a complex with other small structures.

Quote:

(2.a.) Why would anyone thousands of year ago think it was important to map out the distances between stars like that?




Religion. Whether their gods were fiction or actually extraterrestrials we will never know. Given the complex nature in how they did all of this raises the possibility that they did interact with aliens.

Quote:

I should add that some of the debunking you mentioned was flawed.




How so? I can understand the crop circle issue. I should not have debunked it completely because there are some exceptions. But again it is not concrete proof and because everyone is doing it, crop circles are losing credibility.

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#173428 - 06/26/06 05:45 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
Asmedious Offline


Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 617
It is an intresting thing to think about while lying under the stars, looking into space. However, even if space aliens do exist, it will, to the best of my knowledge have no affect on my life what so ever. As you say, it does make one wonder, if anyone knows how to focus a camera, and use a telephoto lens.

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#173429 - 06/26/06 06:46 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
I always liked to play around with the idea that Moses was a Martian =P

I heard about quite a few religions that support the idea of worshiping aliens as gods. Who knows- perhaps we had some history-altering visits from extraterrestrials.
But as Asmedious said- if it is true, it has no effect on our lives. When it does effect…. Well, I just hope it won't be in a negative way..
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#173430 - 06/26/06 07:16 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: The_Lightning]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
Quote:

Well, I just hope it won't be in a negative way..




Just think one minute about what you have said. This reveals a lot.
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#173431 - 06/26/06 08:09 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Assabrah]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
1.I was talking about a future event that will affect my life.

2. "Our lives"= the lives of Satanists.
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#173432 - 06/26/06 08:49 PM 3° ? [Re: The_Lightning]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
Isn't it cute ?



Edited by Assabrah (06/26/06 08:53 PM)
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#173433 - 06/26/06 09:43 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: The_Lightning]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

But as Asmedious said- if it is true, it has no effect on our lives. When it does effect…. Well, I just hope it won't be in a negative way..




How can such a monumental event not effect your life?? Life as we know it will definitely change. If intelligent extraterrestrial life is found, the people of the world and their governments will need to determine how to manage interactions with them. Aliens are different from us physiologically, and may be different from us behaviorally also. Their minds may not possess any resemblance to our own at all. If our interactions with them are positive (which I highly doubt) we may have the opportunity to learn more about them and possibly visit another world that has life. If our interactions are negative then we will have to worry about them either enslaving or destroying us all.


Edited by Carkosa (06/26/06 09:59 PM)

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#173434 - 06/26/06 09:55 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
SonOfSaturn Offline


Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 29
Loc: Next to a broken church.
Well If they are out there, and they are smart enugh to get here, I have to wonder why they would bother.


Edited by Rivenstar (06/26/06 09:57 PM)
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#173435 - 06/26/06 10:05 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
False_Messiah78 Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 1449
Loc: New York State
Quote:

How active are you in this project and what are your expectations for it?




Well, one really can't be "active" in this project as it is just a program that runs on your computer. I guess I'm as active as you can be as I leave my computer on 24/7 and almost always have BOINC running.

To give you an idea these are my stats:
  • Total Credit: 26227.48
  • Average credit: 127.41
  • Results: 11


What are my expectations? I expect that I will be the first human to make contact with Intelligent Alien Life through my computer. All humanity will revere me and elect me Grand Emperor of the Earth and virgins from all over the world will throw themselves at my feet.
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#173436 - 06/26/06 10:13 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>I personaly do not believe in aliens. Given the fact
>>that the universe has billions of stars and planets,
>>I do however feel that it is a logical possibility.

That's my personal take too. I concur that it doesn't strike me as improbable, given the estimated number of stars and planets out there. Some would argue that it's arrogant to assume Earth is the one and only planet where any kind of organisms developed. However, I find some arrogance too in the notion that some alien wanted to come from millions of light years away to some trailer park and start a relationship with a piece of white trash. And all of the "proof" I've seen seems to have a lot of holes and much better explanations (ego projections, false memory syndrome, pop culture and herd influence, the fallacy of pure anecdotal evidence, etc.).
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#173437 - 06/26/06 10:18 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: False_Messiah78]
SonOfSaturn Offline


Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 29
Loc: Next to a broken church.
Well you can have all the virgins, but I get the rest! They tend to be way more fun anyway!
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#173438 - 06/26/06 11:20 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
According with Standardized Galactic Law, every spaceship entering the atmosphere of a planet with a pre-hyperspace civilization (like Earth) must have a Blurrer installed.

This device emits sub-quantum metawaves that render any optical or electronic imaging devices useless, by making their lens go out of focus.
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#173439 - 06/26/06 11:48 PM Re: Here are one or two. More downstairs. [Re: ElJago]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
The planet in question is not unknown, is very present and studied, and is not Earth.

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#173440 - 06/27/06 12:16 AM Re: Here are one or two. More downstairs. [Re: Carkosa]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
(1) No need to guess. It is easy enough to look up and verify.

(2) The Egyptian site is not any pyramid site at all. It is much older than that.

(2a) But exactly why would any religion care either? That only begs the question whose answer I find to be quite obvious, don't you?

You only make maps for navigation, don't you?


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#173441 - 06/27/06 12:17 AM Re: Here are one or two. More downstairs. [Re: Nemo]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
This makes me think about something I'm studying.

I'm sorry because the scan is in French, but it won't be hard to see with what it deals :

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#173442 - 06/27/06 01:19 AM My guesses... [Re: Nemo]
S_Magazine Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 197
(1) The circadian "day" of a human being when placed in a mineshaft for a few weeks is not that of the 24 hour earth day. What planet day does it precisely match?

The Moon. The Ancients, at least, considered it to be a Planet.

(2) What Egyptian dolmen structure not only has the usual alignment with the solstices and equinoxes but also proprotionately identifies the precise distance in light years between a number of distant stars ... distances only recently discovered in the last few years through modern astronomy?

The Temple at Luxor.

(2.a.) Why would anyone thousands of year ago think it was important to map out the distances between stars like that?

I'll have to pass on this one.
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#173443 - 06/27/06 01:26 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: S_Magazine]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
Quote:



(2.a.) Why would anyone thousands of year ago think it was important to map out the distances between stars like that?

I'll have to pass on this one.




Possibly because they believed that the stars governed their lives. Or that the "heavenly bodies" were Gods themselves. In short, they believed in crap akin to astrology.
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#173444 - 06/27/06 01:32 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: S_Magazine]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
A solar day on Mars is just over 24 hours, that was my guess.
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#173445 - 06/27/06 03:31 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
S_Magazine Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 197
Quote:

A solar day on Mars is just over 24 hours, that was my guess.




I was thinking along the lines of a heavenly body that would have more influence (i.e. by gravitational pull) on a human body.

I'm going to have to do some checking on how long it takes for the Moon to revolve around the Earth, though, to see if that fits my guess.
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#173446 - 06/27/06 03:37 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
S_Magazine Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 197
Quote:

Quote:



(2.a.) Why would anyone thousands of year ago think it was important to map out the distances between stars like that?

I'll have to pass on this one.




Possibly because they believed that the stars governed their lives. Or that the "heavenly bodies" were Gods themselves. In short, they believed in crap akin to astrology.




Upon further reflection, I would like to change my "answer" slightly.

Any answer that anyone here can make to Magister Nemo's final question would only be mere speculation, because there's really no way of knowing what went on in the Ancients' minds. That is, unless you're fluent on a native level in ancient Sumerian or ancient Egyptian and can read whatever documentation they left behind for yourself. Or you decide to take Sitchin at his word.
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#173447 - 06/27/06 04:05 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: S_Magazine]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
It seems significant to me that this "altered" circadian rhythm occurs when removed from the natural day/night cycle. I imagine something similar must occur in polar regions unless a schedule is enforced.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173448 - 06/27/06 04:29 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Quote:

How can such a monumental event not effect your life?? Life as we know it will definitely change. If intelligent extraterrestrial life is found, the people of the world and their governments will need to determine how to manage interactions with them. Aliens are different from us physiologically, and may be different from us behaviorally also. Their minds may not possess any resemblance to our own at all. If our interactions with them are positive (which I highly doubt) we may have the opportunity to learn more about them and possibly visit another world that has life. If our interactions are negative then we will have to worry about them either enslaving or destroying us all.




Your reply makes it seem as though I suggested that in the next "visit" extraterrestrials would be found.
It just might happen that they will "kidnap" somebody and that person would be considered insane for the rest of his life—no affect on me.
But- if aliens do come to earth and reveal themselves (to the whole world) - I just hope they will "come in peace" because otherwise, this would effect my life in a negative way (obviously).


Edited by The_Lightning (06/27/06 04:34 AM)
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#173449 - 06/27/06 05:51 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
ElJago Offline


Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Northumberland, England
I myself am very sceptical about the theory of extraterrestrial life travelling vast distances to this planet (or from secret bases in Antartica, Mexico, Argentina, area 51 or from within the hollow earth ! ) in nuts and bolts spacecraft.
I'm more a fan of the "Daemonic reality" theory, there are strange things that have always existed alongside us on earth that have appeared in different forms over the centuries:- UFO's, angels, demons, aliens, monsters, fairies, men in black etc.
Why they exist and what their purpose is is something we will probably never understand, for some reason they seem drawn to us and seem to "need" our interaction in some way.

A line from the average film version of the great book The Mothman prophecies sums it up, Richard Gere playing a bastardized version of the great John Alva Keel asks a disembodies entity on the phone "What do you look like ?", the entity answers "It depends who's looking".

This echoes what happened at Fatima, Portugal during a festival in the 1930's. A shimmering ball of light appeared in the sky above the festival witnessed by hundreds of people, when asked to describe what they had seen by journalists everyone gave a different answer some said they saw the virgin mary, others the archangel gabriel, others described demons dancing in the sky, while others described a golden disk spinning like a top.
_________________________
Man: An animal so lost in rapturous comtemplation of what he thinks he is as to overlook what he indubitably ought to be - Ambrose Bierce - The Devil's Dictionary.

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said, "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Lewis Carroll, Through the looking glass.

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#173450 - 06/27/06 10:35 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: S_Magazine]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
The reason for the Ancients being so heedful of the stars and planets might be because the solar system was not anywhere near as pleasant and gentle as it is today. It could actually have been that there once was a solar system engulfed in chaos that was caused by the interactions of those titanic floating bodies, which were called Gods. Those planets could have destroyed much of what was on the Earth’s surface with astonishing heavenly effects.

That is an interesting idea.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#173451 - 06/27/06 11:20 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: S_Magazine]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>Any answer that anyone here can make to
>>Magister Nemo's final question would only
>>be mere speculation, because there's really
>>no way of knowing what went on in the
>>Ancients' minds

Falling back on the old solipsism argument (a long time favorite of mystics and assorted "faith" zealots, regardless of the topic) does not reduce every answer to "pure speculations" of equal validity.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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#173452 - 06/27/06 12:19 PM Re: My guesses... [Re: Discipline]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:

It could actually have been that there once was a solar system engulfed in chaos that was caused by the interactions of those titanic floating bodies, which were called Gods. Those planets could have destroyed much of what was on the Earth’s surface with astonishing heavenly effects.




You sound like Immanuel Velikovsky.

Velikovsky's Worlds in Collision stuff has been pretty thoroughly discredited by the scientific community (Sagan did a particularly smashing job of it in Broca's Brain) but it's certainly an intriguing notion. To paraphrase Gould, Velikovsky may be wrong, but at least he's gloriously wrong!

-Chess

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#173453 - 06/27/06 01:23 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: The_Lightning]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

Your reply makes it seem as though I suggested that in the next "visit" extraterrestrials would be found.




No it does not. My comments were strictly directed to your stance that hypothetically, proven knowledge of extraterrestrial existance will have no effect on your life.

Quote:

It just might happen that they will "kidnap" somebody and that person would be considered insane for the rest of his life—no affect on me.




Of course, an experience limited to only a select few will not effect you or me. But we are not talking about single testimonials that are not verifiable. We are talking about the best possible proof to the general world, past and present - such as documented mass sightings, ancient texts, signals from space, visual evidence, etc.

Quote:

But- if aliens do come to earth and reveal themselves (to the whole world) - I just hope they will "come in peace" because otherwise, this would effect my life in a negative way (obviously).




Even if they came in peace your life will still change.


Edited by Carkosa (06/27/06 01:30 PM)

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#173454 - 06/27/06 01:33 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
Catalyst Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 792
Loc: Atwater, Ohio
I hope they take me with them. I am tired of living on Earth . That could prove to be a very intyeresting experience as well.
_________________________
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Catalyst

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#173455 - 06/27/06 03:26 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Catalyst]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>I hope they take me with them.

Sounds reasonable, so long as it didn't include being put into a colony of New-Agers.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

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#173456 - 06/27/06 03:34 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Catalyst]
False_Messiah78 Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 1449
Loc: New York State
>>I hope they take me with them.

I'm sorry, they don't have any more room on their home planet now that they picked up all those Heavens Gate folk.
_________________________
Hail Satan!


SETI@Home Team

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#173457 - 06/27/06 04:56 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Quote:

My comments were strictly directed to your stance that hypothetically, proven knowledge of extraterrestrial existance will have no effect on your life.




I never wrote that! "proven knowledge" never appeared in my post.

Quote:

We are talking about the best possible proof to the general world, past and present - such as documented mass sightings, ancient texts, signals from space, visual evidence, etc.




No… YOU are talking about that, I was talking about the general possibility that aliens exist.

Quote:

Even if they came in peace your life will still change.



Never said it wouldn't! Just made clear I hope it would be for the best.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#173458 - 06/27/06 05:08 PM Re: My guesses... [Re: Chess]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I do.

However, there are many others who have been doing research into this theory.

I also find it funny how quickly everyone seems to use Sagan as the end-all-to-be-all of astronomy.

There are others out there looking deeper and working hard at this concept. Immanuel Velikovsky was just the beginning and his theory was not fully developed at the time.

Again, don't throw the idea out simply because of one man's preconditioned theories.

I have done enough reading on Sagan and on this theory. I looked at both of the opposing sides. I have made my conclusion based off research of some fine data.

But I am an annoyance to the relativity community.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#173459 - 06/27/06 05:25 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Old_Pig]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

According with Standardized Galactic Law, every spaceship entering the atmosphere of a planet with a pre-hyperspace civilization (like Earth) must have a Blurrer installed.

This device emits sub-quantum metawaves that render any optical or electronic imaging devices useless, by making their lens go out of focus.




Or at least something very close to that. If they were close to earth and checking us out, they must be technologically superior to us. Why would they let us detect their presence? I would certainly want to be very stealthy if I were checking out their lair!



Hail Satan!
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#173460 - 06/27/06 05:31 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: The_Lightning]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

I never wrote that! "proven knowledge" never appeared in my post.




*Sigh* I never said you used the words "proven knowledge". You didn't have to. Your statement on aliens not effecting your life if their arrival was peaceful was clear enough. What's the difference?

Quote:

Quote:

We are talking about the best possible proof to the general world, past and present - such as documented mass sightings, ancient texts, signals from space, visual evidence, etc.




No… YOU are talking about that, I was talking about the general possibility that aliens exist.




Scroll above. This whole thread is about the general possibility of extraterrestrial life and the evidence out there.

Quote:

Quote:

Even if they came in peace your life will still change.



Never said it wouldn't! Just made clear I hope it would be for the best.




Yes you did. You made it clear that it would not effect you unless their arrival was not peaceful. Should I quote you again?

Quote:

But as Asmedious said- if it is true, it has no effect on our lives. When it does effect…. Well, I just hope it won't be in a negative way..




Anyway, moving on...

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#173461 - 06/27/06 05:41 PM Re: My guesses... [Re: Discipline]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:

I have done enough reading on Sagan and on this theory. I looked at both of the opposing sides. I have made my conclusion based off research of some fine data.




Interesting. Might I ask for more detail on your data and your conclusion? (You've got me genuinely curious here; I promise I'm not just trying to draw you out so I can deliver a Scientific Smackdown.)

On matters astronomical, I like to think I'm pretty well-read for a non-professional, but I've never gotten deeply into things like archaeology. And so if I'm missing any pieces of this puzzle, I'd like to know.

-Chess

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#173462 - 06/27/06 05:43 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Catalyst]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Quote:

I hope they take me with them. I am tired of living on Earth . That could prove to be a very intyeresting experience as well.




Looks like you haven't heard of the infamous anal probing...
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
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#173463 - 06/27/06 06:49 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Catalyst]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
As long as they don't bring back Tupac or Jim Morrison they can do whatever they like.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173464 - 06/27/06 07:05 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Quote:

Anyway, moving on...



No, sorry- I can't stand being misinterpreted.

Quote:

But as Asmedious said- if it is true, it has no effect on our lives. When it does effect…. Well, I just hope it won't be in a negative way..



Let me explain myself:
"If it is true"= if there are currently aliens out there
"It has no effect on our lives"= in the present, as long as they don't interfere- they are not relevant to my day to day life… (by "our" I meant Satanists… since we are not worshiping aliens as gods)
"When it does effect"= if they reveal themselves to the whole world and there will be proves of their existence and we will come in contact with them.
"I just hope it won't be in a negative way"= I hope they don't blow us up or anything.

I guess It wasn't worded correctly- my apologies. I hope it's clear now.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#173465 - 06/27/06 07:08 PM Re: My guesses... [Re: S_Magazine]
pitzi_83 Offline


Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Israel
Quote:

I'm going to have to do some checking on how long it takes for the Moon to revolve around the Earth.




29.5 days (709 hours).
As in months. (Well, without taking into the whole calendar
issue with the sun...)

I guess that makes your speculation a bit... off...

Unless I've misread you, and you meant the time it takes
the moon to appear in the sky. And that's a changing
timeframe since it depends on the sun's location.

If you meant the time it takes for a "day" to manifest on the
moon... well... it doesn't. It has a "dark side" for a reason.


Edited by pitzi_83 (06/27/06 07:14 PM)

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#173466 - 06/27/06 07:35 PM Re: My guesses... [Re: pitzi_83]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
If you meant the time it takes for a "day" to manifest on the moon... well... it doesn't. It has a "dark side" for a reason

Not true. The moon has a side that never faces earth, but that side is not any darker than the near side (if anything it's actually brighter); it regularly faces the sun, whenever the moon is on the sunny side of earth.

However, the moon's rotational period does precisely match its orbital period, and therefore a lunar "day" is the same as the lunar month.

Incidentally, slightly off on the orbital period as well, at least by my reckoning.

The sidereal period of the moon is is 27 d 12 h 44 min; the sidereal period is the time it takes a celestial body to complete one full revolution.

The synodic period is the time it takes said object to reappear at the same point in the sky, relative to the sun, as viewed from earth. The synodic period for the moon is the number you gave.

Perhaps it is stickling for details, but my logic says the sidereal period is the "true" orbital period here, since the synodic period is strictly relative to earth observation.

All of which leads me to conclude that most likely Magister Nemo did not mean to suggest that the human circadian rhythm when removed from natural day/night cycles is relative to the periods of the moon (har, har, har ).
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173467 - 06/27/06 07:35 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Old_Pig]
TattooedKali Offline


Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 95
Loc: Maine
Hey, to some people, that infamous anal probe would be a selling point!
_________________________
Rege Satanas! http://www.cutelucca.com

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#173468 - 06/27/06 08:01 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: The_Lightning]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

"If it is true"= if there are currently aliens out there
"It has no effect on our lives"= in the present, as long as they don't interfere- they are not relevant to my day to day life…




I knew this is what you meant all along...I just want to know why you feel this way. You can't make a statement like that without explaining it. Even if humans just observed either primitive or intelligent alien life without interference, nothing will ever be the same again. It's interesting to know exactly how you will be exempt.

Quote:

(by "our" I meant Satanists… since we are not worshiping aliens as gods)




I know. I don't expect that kind of answer here from anyone. However, I still wouldn't be too quick to answer for everyone either. Alot of people go against everything they believe in when their lives are threatened. If aliens were strong enough to enslave humanity, would you be enslaved to save your life or would you rather let them kill you?

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#173469 - 06/27/06 08:50 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
There's actually an equation for finding out how many technologically advanced civilizations are out there. I'll sum it up from my text book. (Horizons: 6th Edition by Micheal A. Seeds.)

Nc = (N*)(fp)(nLZ)(fL)(fI)(Fs)

Nc is the number of communicative civilizations.
N* is the average number of stars in a galaxy.
fp is the probability that a star has planets.
nLZ is the average number of planets suitably placed in the "life zone"
fL is the probability that life will originate if conditions are suitable.
fI is the probability that intelligent life will develop.
Fs is the fraction of a star's life during which a civilization is communicative.

A little side note on what a "life zone" is. A life zone is a region around a star in which it is not too hot or too cold for life to develop and survive. Now my favorite part, number crunching. I'll use the most pessimistic values for all of the above variables.

N* = (2)(10^11)
fP = 0.01
nLZ = 0.01
fL = 0.01
fI = 0.01
Fs = 10^-8

Plugging these in gives a value of (2)(10^-5) communicative civilizations per galaxy, or 1 per 50,000 galaxies.

This doesn't seem like a lot. However, the one thing that most people fail to grasp is the shear size of the universe. There are an estimated 100 BILLION galaxies. That would mean that there are 2,000,000 communicative civilizations in existance right now, and that's the minimum value. Of course, if there's only 1 civ per 50,000 galaxies, then the odds are that we will never make contact with one or even know that they exist. So, is there intelligent life elsewhere? Statistically speaking, it's very, very likely. Will we ever communicate with them or be visited by them? Hard to tell, but probably not.

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#173470 - 06/27/06 10:09 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: ModernTantalus]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

If there's only 1 civ per 50,000 galaxies, then the odds are that we will never make contact with one or even know that they exist. So, is there intelligent life elsewhere? Statistically speaking, it's very, very likely. Will we ever communicate with them or be visited by them? Hard to tell, but probably not.




Going by these statistics, the possibility of communicating with aliens does seem very hopeless if Earth is the only planet in The Milky Way or other nearby galaxies that sustains life. Unless there is intelligent life somewhere close by in our galaxy. I think chances are very good.

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#173471 - 06/27/06 10:45 PM Re: My guesses... [Re: Chess]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Not a problem, Chess.

I will PM you later with the material.

I am sure it has been provided around here before, especially from Magister Nemo.


Edited by Discipline (06/28/06 12:39 AM)
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#173472 - 06/27/06 11:57 PM Re: My guesses... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
pitzi_83 Offline


Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Israel
Bah, My imagination was running low on logic.

For some reason, I thought the moon wasn't rotating.
After thinking it over, if it wasn't rotating... there wouldn't be
a "dark" side.

What a weird feature (The rotation and orbit match)...

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#173473 - 06/28/06 12:12 AM Re: Here are one or two. More downstairs. [Re: Nemo]
Neko Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 798
Quote:

(1) The circadian "day" of a human being when placed in a mineshaft for a few weeks is not that of the 24 hour earth day. What planet day does it precisely match?




From what I read, I'd say Mars. 25.1 hours seemed to be the average.
_________________________
I am a Vampire.

The Temple | The Elite

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#173474 - 06/28/06 01:24 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: Discipline]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:

Not a problem, Chess.

I will PM you later with the material.




My thanks, sir.

-Chess

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#173475 - 06/28/06 03:18 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: S_Magazine]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Sorry but you missed on all three.

Better luck next time!

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#173476 - 06/28/06 03:19 AM Re: Here are one or two. More downstairs. [Re: Neko]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Mars ... and to within one decimal place.

You win the kupee doll!

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#173477 - 06/28/06 03:19 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Another winner!

Give the man a cigar!

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#173478 - 06/28/06 03:23 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Correct.

However you bring up a small bit of additional humor.

How very interesting that of all the moons in the solar system only one (ours) always faces the planet it orbits.

And only the very center of the face that always faces us has an equilateral triangle circumscribed in the center crater.

Ah coincidences!

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#173479 - 06/28/06 03:26 AM Stop! [Re: pitzi_83]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

What a weird feature (The rotation and orbit match)...




Thoughts like that might start to make you draw unacceptable conclusions.

Certainly the Moon cannot be hollow.

Certainly the Moon is described in many legends as having only arrived in historical times.

Ignore all that!

That is an order!

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#173480 - 06/28/06 03:27 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Some things are so basic to the flesh that even thousands of years will not remove them.

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#173481 - 06/28/06 03:34 AM Re: data [Re: Chess]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
The latest documentary (part one of three) by Thornhill as a part of the Kronia group goes into no small degree of detail on plasma physics and the flaws in the current gravity-only cosmology which even Einstein was never happy with.

Little details like how the solar wind accelerates faster and faster as it leaves the Sun do tend to cause one to pause.

Gravity is a puny force that fails to account for what we see out there.

But there is a force that does.

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#173482 - 06/28/06 06:27 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Oh… I think I understand what was confusing about what I wrote.
I'm sorry- it is quite confusing…
I meant that I have an "agnostic" approach towards aliens- The existence of aliens can't be proven, therefore it's irrelevant to my present life.
It's like saying- ok, perhaps aliens do exist-and if they do, it doesn't matter (as much as it doesn’t matter if they don't exist) because I don't know of it and I'm not planning on searching for something that isn't relevant to my immediate life.
BUT if one day I'll be able to know of it for certain- I hope it changes my life for the best.

Quote:

I know. I don't expect that kind of answer here from anyone. However, I still wouldn't be too quick to answer for everyone either. A lot of people go against everything they believe in when their lives are threatened. If aliens were strong enough to enslave humanity, would you be enslaved to save your life or would you rather let them kill you?




I agree- in that hypothetical situation I don't know how anybody will react.
BUT RIGHT NOW, because we didn't chose to worship aliens, the issue of their existence does not have a major relevance to our immediate life. Being interested in them if fine- but what can you DO about it?
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#173483 - 06/28/06 06:57 AM Re: My guesses... [Re: Nemo]
S_Magazine Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 197
Oh, well.
_________________________
S Magazine Issues 1 & 2
S MAgazine Issue 3

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#173484 - 06/28/06 12:00 PM Re: My guesses... [Re: Nemo]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:

How very interesting that of all the moons in the solar system only one (ours) always faces the planet it orbits.




Hate to contradict you, Magister, but synchronous rotation of moons is actually quite common. Just about everything orbiting close enough to its parent planet is tidally locked, and all the major satellites in the solar system are on that list.

Personally, what I've always found most odd is the coincidence that as seen from Earth, the Moon and Sun have exactly the same angular diameter. There's essentially no other place in the solar system where you can stand and see the Sun and ANYTHING consistently appear even close to the same size. Because of that, total eclipses (at least the way we get them, with the entire corona visible) are a uniquely Terran phenomenon.

Quote:

And only the very center of the face that always faces us has an equilateral triangle circumscribed in the center crater.




Never noticed that one. Looks like you've sent me on a treasure hunt!

-Chess

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#173485 - 06/28/06 02:53 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: ModernTantalus]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
Great!, Modern we must be terribly egocentric to think that we are the only type of life in the universe. Think of how vastly different life is here on Earth, it is most likely like that elsewhere also. Considering the size of the universe if there is only life here on Earth then it is a huge waste of space, nature does not waste. Us coming in contact with other civilizations is probable and more likely the longer the race survives, but unlikely. Think about this. We have sent many probes and satellites into space. Consider that one travels very far and crash lands on a planet where there is life similiar to what we were like thousands of years ago. Imagine what the primitive being would think?

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#173486 - 06/28/06 04:02 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: DickSteele]
Achilles Offline


Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 223
Life elsewhere will most likely evolve much more differently than on earth. I doubt there is other intelligent life as we know it.
_________________________
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard

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#173487 - 06/28/06 04:22 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
This is something that few people are truly considering:

Besides the possibility of life on other planets (or moons), one must consider the possibility of what that life is.

As a general statement, the odds of it being anthropomorphic are slim and none. Do not forget that we were not a predestined result of evolution, mammals dominate the planet solely because meteoric impact annihilated the giant reptiles (i.e. dinosaurs) that previously dominated for dozens of millions of years. Apes haven't existed for even a blink in time compared to the time these creatures covered the globe. Also do not forget that our cerebral cortex is an evolution upon the reptilian brain structure, and that prior to their extinction, several species of dinosaurs evolved brain capacities that must have conferred intelligence similar to modern birds and perhaps even higher mammals (obviously not including humans). This, 65 million years ago. Had they not died they may have evolved much further, we will never know.

Reptiles themselves evolved to deal with the conditions of interior terrestrial existence, away from water.

Amphibians evolved to exploit existing resources on water fronts.

Terrestrial plants themselves were responsible for literally terraforming the entire planet, rendering it habitable in the sense we know today. Said plants took millions of years to actually colonize the interior land masses.

And so forth.

The odds of a planet having conditions suitable for any life are small (per planet; the odds of there actually existing other planets must be admittedly high given the number of planets likely existing in the universe, even if they are far outside our reach). The odds of said planet having conditions vaguely resembling earth are ridiculous.

Therefore, whatever life exists elsewhere will have evolved under very different circumstances and will almost certainly bear no particular resemblance to life on earth. The only requirement is that it is able to replicate itself, causing proliferation and evolution (yes, evolution is a foregone conclusion of any replicator capable of error in replication). These beings would not belong to any of the five kingdoms of life on earth, cladistically speaking; in other words, even if it is mobile, has a nervous system of some kind, and feeds on other beings, it is not an "animal." It's something else.

Therefore, questions about whether this life is "intelligent" or "peaceful" or whether it gives a shit at all are all moot. This life will almost certainly not have anything in common with us except replication and the presense of survival mechanisms. What those mechanisms are (intelligence, for example, is a survival mechanism), statistically speaking, is probably nothing we know much about.

However, given the general prevalence of xenophobia among earth life (most animals don't particularly care for members of other species and often not even members of their own species), if we are going to view aliens in earth terms, probably they won't like us much.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173488 - 06/28/06 04:24 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: The_Lightning]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

BUT RIGHT NOW, because we didn't chose to worship aliens, the issue of their existence does not have a major relevance to our immediate life.




The interest has nothing to do with worship. The issue revolves around how would we react toward such a revelation. Lots of questions would arise about their existance as well as our own. It may open doors to many possibilities both postive and negative. The positive being that religion will be crushed. The negative being that interactions with them may prove dangerous.

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#173489 - 06/28/06 05:01 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Achilles Offline


Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 223
Mirrors my view on the issue perfectly.

The odd thing about alien sightings is that they are almost always described resembling lifeforms on earth.
_________________________
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard

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#173490 - 06/28/06 05:41 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

As a general statement, the odds of it being anthropomorphic are slim and none...The odds of said planet having conditions vaguely resembling earth are ridiculous.




Very true. I do personally take this all into consideration. There was a program a while back on National Geographic called "Extraterrestrials" that explained and showed animation on what life on other planets may look like and how their lives would be like on those planets. They were far from humanoid. The concept of the "Greys" and other popular humanoid type aliens is very unrealistic. Life on another world would have physical and mental charactoristics far beyong our comprehension or imagination.


Quote:

Therefore, questions about whether this life is "intelligent" or "peaceful" or whether it gives a shit at all are all moot. This life will almost certainly not have anything in common with us except replication and the presense of survival mechanisms. What those mechanisms are (intelligence, for example, is a survival mechanism), statistically speaking, is probably nothing we know much about.




Again, very good points and probably the most accurate conclusion...for life in distant worlds and perhaps even in our own galaxy. Do you think there could be a possible chance of intelligent life if it were closer to Earth? Say for example our own solar system. The only way I see this being possible is if the whole ancient astronaut theory was correct. According to that, humans are the product of genetic manipulation by aliens. They also don't give a shit about humanity, they are only taking over for their own survival.

Alot of those theories are based on interpretation of ancient text so it is no reliable proof. However, you do have to wonder how the ancients (some of them stone age people) knew so much. There are airplane models thousands of years old in the Cairo Museum, blatent flying saucers in medieval paintings. Was it pure imagination? Or was it something they actually saw? They also knew details of distant stars without the aid of the most powerful telescopes. Look at the Dogon people for example. How could they have known this?

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#173491 - 06/28/06 06:36 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: DickSteele]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I have a feeling that there is something out there. However, it is the here and now that I must make my priority.

But if there truly is nothing else out there, I would not think of the immenseness of space as a waste. I would think of it as one gigantic playground to explore, expand, and even (just between you and me) exploit to my benefit.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#173492 - 06/28/06 09:38 PM Thank you. [Re: Chess]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I was not aware that most of the major moons always face the planet they orbit with the same side.

Are you quite certain of this?

In looking this up this seems to be a factor of gravity, distance and relative size:

Quote:

Occurrence

Moons
Most significant moons in the Solar System are tidally locked with their primaries, since they orbit very closely and tidal force increases rapidly (as a cubic) with decreasing distance. Notable exceptions are the irregular outer satellites of the gas giant planets, which orbit much further away than the large well-known moons.

Pluto and its moon Charon are an extreme example of a tidal lock. Charon is the biggest moon in the Solar System in comparison to its planet and also has a very close orbit. This has made Pluto also tidally locked to Charon. In effect, these two celestial bodies revolve around each other (their mass center lies outside of Pluto) as if joined with a rod connecting two opposite points on their surfaces.

The tidal locking situation for asteroid moons is largely unknown, but closely-orbiting binaries are expected to be tidally locked, as well as, obviously, contact binaries.



Source.

Thank you for teaching me something new!

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#173493 - 06/28/06 10:06 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>The odds of said planet having conditions vaguely
>>resembling earth are ridiculous.

That's an excellent point. In fact, there's no telling whether any alien "life" would even be DNA-based. And even if we do assume the starting conditions were the same and gave rise to amino acids and DNA, and assumed climates were the same as they have been on earth, there's still no telling how things evolved from there.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

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#173494 - 06/28/06 11:45 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Bill_M]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
There is always the possibility of a form of life so radically different to us that we can look right at it and don't recognize it as such.

Maybe some of the same planets we have already studied and discarded as "lifeless" are actually inhabited by something so "alien" that our probe's sensors can't detect it at all.

Just a thought...
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#173495 - 06/29/06 12:43 AM Re: Universal Life [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
>> Therefore, whatever life exists elsewhere will have evolved under very different circumstances and will almost certainly bear no particular resemblance to life on earth <<

You appear to be limiting yourself.

You have forgotten to consider the possibilty that life on earth originated elsewhere. There is definite and very real grounds for this hypothosis (either through a process known as panspermia or something else). It is certainly as valid as any other theory in explaining the sudden expolsion of life on this planet.

Also, life is part of the universe. Not just earth. The whole universe and everything therein is made up of certain materials that fall into set parameters. We may not yet be aware of what all those parameters are but I'm pretty sure the objects and bodies that make up this physical world are all made up of materials that we can recognise. The basic building blocks are universal, not unique to earth.

The universe is a quantifiable machine. It is not half as complicated as one might think.

In short: humanoid, reptillian or whatever life is all part of the physical universe and probably is not unique to earth. The possibility that there are recognisable life forms out there is more probable than them not being recognisable.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#173496 - 06/29/06 01:31 AM Re: Universal Life [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Warlock UVRay,

I did not mean to imply that we could not recognize them as alive. We almost certainly would, unless they were entirely immobile, resembled a naturally occuring formation of some kind (i.e. a rock, or simply invisible) and had a replication cycle so long that we never observed it.

On the other hand, Mr. UVRay, it could not possibly be "reptilian" in the strict sense of the word, as it is a safe bet that it is not related to the clade of reptiles, even if they did somehow have characteristics in common with earth reptiles.

Biological probability suggests that whatever life exists elsewhere will likely have a few things in common with earth life (there's only so far off template you can go, as far as science can be aware; a lifeform must have "food" of some kind, or some energy source at least). My point is that within the bare minimum parameters that we know all life must adhere to in order to be both "alive" and physically possible, there exists such a broad range, and such a broad range of possible conditions on other planets (just look at the variance on earth in where life is found; lakes buried under thousands of feet of ice on Antarctica, and Death Valley or a hot spring!) that we should recognize our anthropomorphic fantasies of aliens as just that.

I'm also aware of the cross-contamination theory of life on earth; the most likely candidate for that is, in fact, Mars, though this is single-celled organisms we're talking about and the only shared ground we have with the theoretical "carrier" organisms is the presence of DNA as a replication blueprint. No guarantee that alien life would use DNA, it could just as well use something analogous but quite different in chemical makeup (to wit, some earth life uses RNA, not DNA, as its basic building block). In all probability, if there is life on Europa, for example, it is more likely to resemble a jellyfish than us (and only a jellyfish coincidentally, since we can be quite sure that Europan life, if it exists, is not related to our jellyfish).

So yes, we will likely recognize it, but will we have much in common with it? Statistics say no.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173497 - 06/29/06 01:43 AM Re: Universal Life [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
>> So yes, we will likely recognize it, but will we have much in common with it? Statistics say no. <<

What statistics? There are no statistics regarding extra-terrestial life forms.


I should have added that my whole reply was not directed at you. Merely the initial part about Panspermia which was an addition to waht you were saying that does require consideration.

However I will add that the universe is elementary, my dear Watson. And if the basic building blocks are fundamental, how can anything be fundamentally different?

The basic building blocks throughout the universe are constant. So yes we would have much in common - about as much in common as we do with a fish. Which is more than one might think.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#173498 - 06/29/06 01:45 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Actually, given the fact that all worlds in our solar system that we know anything about have conditions radically different from earth, if there is life in this solar system it almost surely is very, very different from us in a fundamental way. The only possible commonality would be if we were actually cross-contaminated by extraterrestrial life (i.e. microbes hitching a ride on a meteor and somehow making it over here, a theory that has some mild plausibility), and even then we'd probably only have the commonality of DNA as a replicating mechanism.

Yes, it is "possible" that we are a science project for ET, but that's "possible" in the same sense that it's possible that a giant spook put us here. You can't prove it's not true because you can't prove a negative (most of the time), but that's as far as it goes. The "validity" of ancient texts as evidence applies equally well to most religious books.

The Dogon are interesting. There is some skeptical belief that Europeans introduced them to their belief in Sirius, but it seems like strange knowledge to me for a European to care to share with savages. I say the jury is out on that one.

I, however, tend to look for the simplest explanation for things, even if I'm making radical speculation. I think it far more likely (even if still unlikely, strictly speaking) that the ancients had more knowledge than we credit them with or that we are aware of than spacemen telling the Dogon about Sirius (not a good solar system to be a candidate for supporting life, by the way; Sirius B is a parasitic star on Sirius A, and the entire system is surely quite a hostile place if it has planets at all). I don't "believe" that there were necessarily prehistoric advanced civilizations as there is no proof of that either, but given that we do know that there is at least intelligent life here...we can conclude that if some intelligent life informed the Dogon (or someone before them who told the Dogon in turn) about arcane astronomical knowledge, it was probably the intelligent life we know to exist, namely us.

Two options:

a) An ancient civilization achieved high enough technology to build a telescope. Highly unlikely, but at least it only requires that we have a gap in our knowledge of history.

b) Aliens told them. Requires that we stipulate that there are aliens, that they singled out a bunch of savages to share their wisdom with, and that this wisdom was the location of a parasitic star, as opposed to something useful like the formula for steel, or agricultural techniques, or maybe the wheel...

Of course, the skeptics have an edge here in that the theory that a European told them in the last century requires only that we believe that a European explorer somehow saw fit to relate this knowledge which serves no apparent purpose and that the Dogon thought this was somehow a religious experience, as opposed to either of the above theories that both require much more suspension of disbelief. But out of those two speculative theories, the first one seems less far fetched to me.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173499 - 06/29/06 01:54 AM Re: Universal Life [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
The universe isn't quite that simple. Quantities, as you say, aren't exactly relative to the universe. Quantities by themselves are non-dimensional (a single point) and an array of them forms one dimension (a line). All quantities can be represented by a one-dimensional line, yet the universe is visibly composed of three dimensions, and theoretically composed of a fourth spatial dimension (not an "alternate universe," but a spatial dimension that we are unable to percieve).

Numbers alone cannot even accurately represent two dimensions in total fullness, let alone three (to prove it, try relating the shape of a square using absolutely nothing but numbers, no symbols of relativity).

I simply submit that in such a complicated universe, a universe where we are not even aware of what composes the vast majority of matter in the universe (so-called dark matter), where high school physics teaches you about three kinds of particles out of the vast array of real occuring particles, where we are not even 100% sure of what the fuck happens in the formation of an alleged "black hole," something that utterly defies normal physics, the certainty that we know what we think we know is small indeed. The wisest man is the one who knows that he knows so very little.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173500 - 06/29/06 01:59 AM Re: Universal Life [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
Are you saying there are not fundamental laws that apply to to how the universe operates?

You see, what you have said above is what I would call obfuscation.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#173501 - 06/29/06 02:27 AM Re: Universal Life [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
I'm saying that "fundamental laws" may exist but it does not follow that those laws are what we think they are.

In all of mankind's history, we've repeatedly thought something only to prove ourselves wrong again a short time later.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173502 - 06/29/06 02:38 AM Re: Universal Life [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
Quote:

I'm saying that "fundamental laws" may exist but it does not follow that those laws are what we think they are.

In all of mankind's history, we've repeatedly thought something only to prove ourselves wrong again a short time later.




But there is much we have confirmed.

When you say "in common with" it depends whether you are speaking about biology or sentience.

It is pretty certain that we would share acute similarities in our physical make-up in the biological sense.

But certainly another being might not share my penchant for sitting down and listening to a Sex Pistols album or watching a film.

Not to labour the point but I probably possess a greater understanding of cultures completely alien to our own than you do.

You see, as a baby I was abandoned in Dublin Bay and left for dead. I was discovered, and subsequently raised, by Dolphins.

I must add, I have enjoyed this little discussion.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#173503 - 06/29/06 04:41 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
I actually think that if there is any form of life out there which is in any way intellegent, in a way that is even vaguely recognizable as being intellegent, that it would have passed out of existance long before humans started knapping stone tools from pieces of flint. In other words, there might just be work out there in space for an archeologist. 11.2-20 Billion years is a lot of time for two civilizations arising very (VERY) far from one another to actually meet up and say hi. But it makes for good science fiction.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#173504 - 06/29/06 04:51 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
I'm not quite sure how you mean this, but I think you're speaking of celestial distances.

For example, if SETI does in fact pick up an alien radio transmission, it will almost certainly be all we ever get out of said race. If this very evening we caught a complex radio signal from outer space, decoded it to the extent of realizing it is alien language or other transmission (though we probably have little hope of actually figuring out their language, if they even have a language), and if we actually had an interstellar spaceship parked in orbit and ready to launch the same night, it would still be on the order of a a couple hundred to a couple billion years before we got to wherever it came from to visit depending on which star it came from (assuming the spaceship achieves something like 25%-50% the speed of light, an extremely high figure; even at the speed of light its a few dozen to a few hundred million years). In other words, their planet is as likely as not extinct by the time we drop in, and earthlings themselves would probably not be getting word back from the expeditionary crew before our own planet goes extinct.

The only way we'll ever personally explore the galaxy is if we find a way to break the light speed barrier on the order of several magnitudes, a feat that modern science says is impossible (to credit, my own post mentions that "modern science" of each era has invariably been wrong).

Amusing thought: when you look at a starry night sky, no small number of the stars whose light you see are, in real time, no longer there at all. The light you view left that star in real time around the time that dinosaurs lived, maybe even as far back as the precambrian sea! Want to time travel? Look up.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173505 - 06/29/06 05:30 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
IX Von ZehEhv Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 708
Quote:

The only way we'll ever personally explore the galaxy is if we find a way to break the light speed barrier on the order of several magnitudes




You are much better-read on the subject than I so perhaps you already know of this. Scientists have been shown to be able to control the speed of light. More info here

I can't find the source, however, where scientists were attempting to harness the ability to increase the speed of light in the space occupied by a 'rocket' thereby increasing the effective speed it could travel.

If this speed could be increased significantly as a 'field' of sorts around said craft, it could have major implications as to how far could we could go in a short amount of time.
_________________________
"Some people dream of success... while others wake up and work hard at it." - Author unknown

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#173506 - 06/29/06 08:08 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
You might as well make the assumption that one can connect through altered states of consciousness to the "all-knowing force of life" and draw specific information from it. As discussed on this thread.
If this is true- human beings are able to know anything using the powers of the sub-space aspect of their being...
Perhaps the extraterrestrials which were encountered were actually "spirits" from other dimensions……. This is just as likely as life from other planets or as a "gap" in history .
I'm not saying it's impossible extraterrestrials exist, but I too believe that even if aliens do exist, communication with them is highly unlikely… And eventually, that's what it goes down to: belief.


Edited by The_Lightning (06/29/06 08:15 AM)
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#173507 - 06/29/06 09:47 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Light can be speed up or slowed down by the refraction index of certain materials. Magnetic fields can be used to adjust the speed of a photon too.

With metamaterial you can even bend and twist light. This has an interesting effect which can result in an object being semi-invisible (not all of the light will be bent). Metamaterials with their incredible refraction indexes can also improve the quality of digital images.

It is amazing stuff.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#173508 - 06/29/06 10:12 AM Re: Thank you. [Re: Nemo]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:

I was not aware that most of the major moons always face the planet they orbit with the same side.

Are you quite certain of this?





Quite certain, without even needing to take the experts' word for it. I have seen with my own eyes, through my own telescope, that Iapetus is always quite bright on one side of Saturn and nigh-invisible on the other. That this moon has differently-colored hemispheres, and is synchronously rotating with Saturn (and so always shows us the same side at the same point in its orbit), is the only explanation.

Quote:

Thank you for teaching me something new!




I've learned quite a bit from your posts, and they've also pointed me in the right directions to learn even more. It's an honor to return the favor.

-Chess

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#173509 - 06/29/06 01:36 PM Re: Universal Life [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>>>So yes, we will likely recognize it, but will we have
>>>>much in common with it? Statistics say no.
>>
>>What statistics? There are no statistics regarding extra-
>>terrestial life forms.

Of course not. But given our understanding of biological evolution, its history, and the diversity of species seen on this planet alone between two different continents (even if the climates are similar), it is absurd to think that life on an isolated planet would have yielded a species resembling us.

For example, take a population of an earth species split geographically into two groups. Say one half stays where it is, the other half migrates to a second location. Each group develops according to the variations in their respective breeding population and environmental effects. As generations come and go, natural selection and genetic drift will end up being different for the two groups, until after many years of many generations the two groups are so different that they can be called different species.

>>The basic building blocks throughout the universe are
>>constant.

We still can't say the same about things like DNA. Stanley L. Miller's experiment showed that environmental conditions of earth in its early days could very well have chemically created amino acids, which in turn can be seen as the building blocks of life. But there's no telling whether or not carbon-based lifeforms are the only way to have life. Who knows, maybe a planet produced silicon-based life forms with radically different structures. Even if we assume there was another planet that started with the same exact single-celled organisms we had in our Proterozoic era, there is still no telling what sort of species would have evolved from there.

>>So yes we would have much in common - about as much in
>>common as we do with a fish. Which is more than one might
>>think.

It's true that humans and fish have some things in common as organisms, because humans and fish had a common ancestor (even if it was way further back in the family tree than the most immediate common ancestor of man and chimpanzee). Humans and fish are both vertebrates, both have two eyes and mouth, both have sets of organs that each do similar tasks, etc. But on another planet, there's still no telling that life would have produced anything resembling our vertebrate ancestors, or even organisms resembling ancestors of vertebrates. Evolution doesn't follow a predetermined tree.
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#173510 - 06/29/06 01:53 PM Re: Universal Life [Re: Bill_M]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
You have missed my point completely, Bill.

I'm saying we would more than likely recognise the ingredients of their construction. And, as has already been stated, we would recognise an ability to survive and/or reproduce.
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#173511 - 06/29/06 03:24 PM Re: Universal Life [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
To be fair, I thought you meant the same thing as Warlock BillM apparently does. It was the original point of my post, not to imply that we could not possibly recognize extraterrestrial life, but that it would be more drastically removed in evolutionary terms than anything we could find on earth, and perhaps created using an entirely different biochemical basis.

The statement that aliens may have different musical tastes is...an understatement. More like aliens may share none of our experience whatsoever. What if an alien relied on polymer chains as its basic building block, infrared and electromagnetic sensory input, and had a hive mind of collective "intelligence" greatly exceeding ours (bees, for example, can actually solve algebraic problems collectively)? And to think that the latter two have examples here on earth!
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173512 - 06/29/06 03:50 PM Re: Universal Life [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
>> The statement that aliens may have different musical tastes is...an understatement. <<

Understatements are usually employed to further compound a greater meaning.

>> What if an alien relied on polymer chains as its basic building block, infrared and electromagnetic sensory input, and had a hive mind of collective "intelligence" greatly exceeding ours. <<

We would have recognised it.

Anything in the universe can be observed, studied and eventually understood.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#173513 - 06/29/06 03:59 PM Re: Universal Life [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Recognized it yes, but the point I've been driving at all along is that the fantasies we have about a "cooperative" between us and ETs is not especially likely, and further that all modern speculation as to what they would be like is essentially moot in light of the vast possibilities. It's something like trying to write about Don Quixote when all you've read is the first half of Hamlet. There would be no valid grounds for any statement made about one thing with only limited knowledge of another, only vaguely categorically related thing. Both are literature, but in different languages, different authors, different time periods, different countries, different plots...you get the idea.

I am not sure I agree that everything can be observed, studied, and understood. I do agree that most likely any kind of living organism could be observed and studied (though understood is a subjective term; do we "understand" insects, or even dogs, in the deeper sense?). Other things, however, may not be so. We can't observe certain parts of the universe, for example, because obstacles obscure them from our view. The only way around this would be to travel a few hundred million light years away to get around those obstacles, not a good outlook for that. Studied might as well be the same thing as observed for the most part. Understood...well, we already know that we cannot observe or really understand subatomic physics due to real physical limitations, though I still must temper that with my previous statement that we've always been wrong so far. Don't get me wrong, I'm an optimist when it comes to human ingenuity, but it very well may be that certain things are forever beyond our reach.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173514 - 06/29/06 04:01 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: IX Von ZehEhv]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
I read that article a while back. Very interesting, but I'm not sure how it would ever be applied to make a spaceship go any faster. The only thing I can think is that it suggests that the speed of light may not be quite so great a barrier as we assume it to be, but we're still faced with that difficulty of actually making something go that fast, nevermind making it possible for humans to survive that speed. That's tougher than pulling a lab trick with light.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173515 - 06/29/06 04:05 PM Re: Universal Life [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
>> We can't observe certain parts of the universe, for example, because obstacles obscure them from our view <<

It won't always be this way.

>> the point I've been driving at all along is that the fantasies we have about a "cooperative" between us and ETs is not especially likely <<

If you'd have actually said that I'd have agreed with you on that point.
_________________________
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#173516 - 06/29/06 04:06 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: The_Lightning]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Well, I'm pretty open minded. But assuming that it was possible to employ remote viewing to gain knowledge, on the original subject the Dogon's limited knowledge again suggests that it would be mighty weird for them to have gained the cosmic power of the universe to know all things, yet mostly just used this to find an invisible parasite star. You know, instead of world domination or at least something useful to them.

As for whether or not this has any consequence to extraterrestrials contacting us...you are precisely correct, at the current state of affairs belief in such is just that, belief. I rule very few things out, yet doubt all things. Only if something can hold up against my most merciless doubt is it worth considering further.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173517 - 06/29/06 04:09 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:

I'm not quite sure how you mean this, but I think you're speaking of celestial distances.




Yes, celestial distance is a part of it, and you bring up very good points which serve to illustrate that part of it. But consider this. Lets say we do break the light speed barrier, on the order of serveral hundred magnitudes. We go out into space, exploring. Will we really find life? Yes, I think so. Will we find civilization? If we did, we would more than likely find ruins. Ruins from species that never left the bronze age to ruins of once great interstellar empires, but ruins just the same.

To find "aliens" out there, it would take more than just life and intellegence we could recognize, but the beggining of their civilization and the beggining of ours would have to coincide to within at least ten millenia (give or take a few millenia). And in the span of cosmic time that is an incredibly small chance. So I think if we do find signs of intellegent life, it will be in the form of ruins.
_________________________
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#173518 - 06/29/06 04:09 PM Re: Universal Life [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Very optimistic, and I can't argue that it will necessarily always be this way. Maybe even a new technology will emerge to allow us to see through those obstacles without leaving earth.

Then again, we also have the age of the universe observation limit. If, for example, a star is so far from earth that the light emitted by it takes longer to reach us than the present age of the universe, we clearly cannot see it (from here). Presumably the only way to overcome that is to get closer to it, i.e. travel millions or billions of light years. Again, perhaps nothing is impossible, but that's one hell of an obstacle to overcome.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173519 - 06/30/06 08:21 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Quote:

Well, I'm pretty open minded. But assuming that it was possible to employ remote viewing to gain knowledge, on the original subject the Dogon's limited knowledge again suggests that it would be mighty weird for them to have gained the cosmic power of the universe to know all things, yet mostly just used this to find an invisible parasite star. You know, instead of world domination or at least something useful to them.




Yeah- but perhaps they never new how to use this power- they had visions they couldn't explain when they meditated on stars. Perhaps they never knew they can use the same sort of "remote viewing" for other causes.
Of course- this is all an assumption, I'm just making the point that there are endless explanations.
_________________________
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#173520 - 06/30/06 09:59 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Speaking of alien conspiracies, 98 years ago today, something really fucking big blew up over Tunguska, Siberia.

The interesting thing is that this huge explosion killed only one person, because it was in Siberia. Had it been over a metropolitan area, say Paris, it would have easily ranked as the most fatal single event of the 20th century.

Bizarre theories abound concerning just what it was, but a carbonaceous meteor fits the evidence a lot better than an alien nuke. Nukes tend to leave, you know, radiation. But hey, if it was an alien weapon, at least we know they like us enough to only blow up Siberia.

Joking aside, it really is one of the more mysterious events in recorded history as far as science is concerned, probably due to a lack of equipment/technology, not to mention that nobody even then much cared what happened in Siberia, and the Russians had much bigger fish to fry in those days, delaying any investigation by years. Let's just hope another one doesn't find a landing site closer to home!
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173521 - 06/30/06 10:59 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
luciferHammer Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 242
Quote:

(assuming the spaceship achieves something like 25%-50% the speed of light, an extremely high figure; even at the speed of light its a few dozen to a few hundred million years).




Not right. Some of the planets recently discovered are maybe 10 light-years from earth. Are fast is the passage from one layer of electron to another of an atom. Nobody knows. Just imagine!

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#173522 - 06/30/06 11:45 AM Re: data [Re: Nemo]
luciferHammer Offline
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Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 242
New social dimensions will bring new theories. Satanist, with its free will, will bring researchers to look and test theories differing from all those found during this social entanglement known as Christianity (protestanist). Just imagine!

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#173523 - 06/30/06 11:53 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: luciferHammer]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Almost all extra-solar planets we currently know about are gas giant planets in close orbit with their star, very unlikely candidates for life.

Even if they weren't already so disqualified, even optimistic outlooks on how common life in the universe is would imply that it is highly unlikely that our "near neighbors" also have life; it would be like two next door neighbors both winning the lottery separately.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173524 - 06/30/06 01:13 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Even though I take Carl Sagan with a grain of salt, he did have a very interesting idea of what life on a gas giant would be like if it were to be found.

This can be found in his book Cosmos. I am not sure what page it is on.
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#173525 - 06/30/06 02:51 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Discipline]
Jack_Lantern Offline
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Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Let me guess, it breathes hydrogen, has a body that is comprised mostly of a gigantic gas bladder, and has tentacles or locomotion and feeding?
_________________________
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#173526 - 06/30/06 03:48 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
luciferHammer Offline
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Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 242
Sorry to disagree again, but scientifics have found a new technique based on the distortion of light to find smaller planet, much smaller than those big gas giants which were discovered by gravitational wobble recorded from the nearby star. This is a good start : http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=104243

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#173527 - 06/30/06 07:06 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: luciferHammer]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
You're not disagreeing, you're pointing out things I've left unsaid. I said "most of the planets" because I was aware of that we have recently begun finding smaller planets.

It does not, by the way, negate my point in any significant fashion. The odds of life existing on another planet near to earth are less than the odds of you and your uncle winning the lottery separately.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#173528 - 06/30/06 07:08 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

Yes, it is "possible" that we are a science project for ET, but that's "possible" in the same sense that it's possible that a giant spook put us here. You can't prove it's not true because you can't prove a negative (most of the time), but that's as far as it goes. The "validity" of ancient texts as evidence applies equally well to most religious books.




No, it is not the same. Christianity and other religions after that, took alot from the Sumerians and Egyptians. Primarily, the Sumerians. These cultures were way ahead of their time and knew alot of things they should not have known. I'm not putting any validity in the interpretation of ancient texts by ancient astronaut theorists. I'm going by the extremely advance complex structures that were built by these people and their possible motivations for doing so.


Quote:

The Dogon are interesting. There is some skeptical belief that Europeans introduced them to their belief in Sirius, but it seems like strange knowledge to me for a European to care to share with savages. I say the jury is out on that one.




I know. It does not make any sense why they would share such things with them. And exactly what time period was it assumed that the Europeans gave them this knowledge? If it was during the 1920's or after, then it would be very likely although it still wouldn't make sense why they would share this info. If it was before this star was discovered then we have to figure out how the Europeans knew!



Quote:

I, however, tend to look for the simplest explanation for things, even if I'm making radical speculation.




Yes, but not every explaination is simple!

Quote:

I think it far more likely (even if still unlikely, strictly speaking) that the ancients had more knowledge than we credit them with




I agree. I don't underestimate the intelligence or potential of primitive and advanced ancient cultures either.


Quote:

Two options:

a) An ancient civilization achieved high enough technology to build a telescope. Highly unlikely, but at least it only requires that we have a gap in our knowledge of history.




Yes...very unlikely. No ancient telescopes were found to date. An ancient battery dating about 2500 BCE was found in Baghdad. So who knows? Archaeologists are still finding many anomalies.


Quote:

b) Aliens told them. Requires that we stipulate that there are aliens, that they singled out a bunch of savages to share their wisdom with, and that this wisdom was the location of a parasitic star, as opposed to something useful like the formula for steel, or agricultural techniques, or maybe the wheel...




It wasn't only one star. There is another one that they know about which is being referred to as "Sirius C". The existance of this other star still has not been confirmed. If they were right about Sirius B, maybe they could be right about this one too. If this was all true, I would assume the ET's motivations would be all about control over humans, not enlightening them too much. If they were studying humans, perhaps they knew which had the most potential and who would be the best slaves and delt which each civilization as such.


Edited by Carkosa (06/30/06 08:02 PM)

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#173529 - 06/30/06 07:42 PM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
There may be a chance of finding life in our solar system. At the extreme depths of the ocean near volcanic vents there are places where bacteria fix sulpher to make energy. The cores of Neptune and Uranus are basically rock underneath oceans thousands of miles deep. Now... The interesting thing about water. Under such extreme pressure it has to be a liquid at 4 degrees C. This is a stretch, but it may be possible that there are vents and heat near the rocky surfaces of Neptune and Uranus that could support life. I also have to admit at this point that my knowledge of the properties of silicates under that kind of pressure is non-existant, so I could be way off base, but it's an intriguing idea that's not often considered.

Edit: Did some research. There's actually a layer of Methane ice under the water, so no life there, but there's always the moons of other planets to look at and let's not forget Mars.


Edited by ModernTantalus (06/30/06 07:49 PM)

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#173530 - 07/01/06 05:11 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Carkosa]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:

If this was all true, I would assume the ET's motivations would be all about control over humans, not enlightening them too much.




Really? By the sound of what information may have been given by these hypothetical Sirians, I would assume that they were stuck here on earth for repairs for a short time and decided to share some useless information. They don't seem to have contacted the Dogon any more recently then they passed on the info about their star system, and it doesn't seem like they worked very hard at making any kind of formal religion. I would say that any religious feelings the Dogon have toward these Sirians would be more akin to a cargo cult than anything else (assuming the alien theory is true).
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#173531 - 07/01/06 11:00 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: luciferHammer]
Catalyst Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 792
Loc: Atwater, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

(assuming the spaceship achieves something like 25%-50% the speed of light, an extremely high figure; even at the speed of light its a few dozen to a few hundred million years).




Not right. Some of the planets recently discovered are maybe 10 light-years from earth. Are fast is the passage from one layer of electron to another of an atom. Nobody knows. Just imagine!




Lets not forget that speed may well not be the only way to travel through space for these creatures. Lets assume that they also have the ability to open up wormholes, which, if aliens are so sdvanced, this could be a fair possibility. They would then not have to be traveling very fast at all to reach our planet. With a wormhole, it would be possible to make it to Pluto from here in just a few seconds, minutes at most!
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#173532 - 07/01/06 11:40 AM Re: Extraterrestrials [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
luciferHammer Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 242
But it is important to define what you consider life. By intuition, I think the odd of finding alien bacterias are much more better than finding complex life forms, ever more intelligent life forms. An interesting article on the subject can be found there :

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/2c21c0f98d07b010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

Likely, the information we have about what can make a planet habitable is quite thin, since only the 9-10 planets in our solar system can be considered somehow well understood. But since out of those planets, 1 is habitable, 1 (Mars) is likely to have some ingredient for it, and also if we add moons, Titan would be a strong candidate if it wasn't so far from the sun, and considering the number of stars not so far from us, in term of light years, I think the odds of finding another earth nearby is not that low. Something whose odd is low, thought, is that of ascertaining the habitability of one extra solar planet with some degree of certitude.

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