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#175142 - 07/04/06 02:36 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: Zephirus]
Ares Offline


Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 63
Quote:

Ares:
I think using the lion is not a good analogy. Certain animals are born with instincts to prey on certain types of animals. Humans are born with instincts of self-preservation, and pleasure-seeking. Humans are very much a product of their environments. Given two babies of equal mental and physical qualities, drop one into a crime-ridden ghetto, and drop the other into a highly educated, well-to-do area, and check up on them in 20 years. Do you think that strength and drive is innate? If so, do you think the baby who is raised in the ghetto will have the ability to reject the values of his fellow citizens and rise above it to make his life into something better? Just food for thought.




That is not a good example, because that only reflects the concrete, and artificial cocoon that humanity has built around itself to shield us from nature. However if human class conditions out of the picture and raised them in the wild, you would get very different results which would reflect the true instincts of the subjects.

For a civilized society to exist, humans had to give up natural instincts to maintain it, so thus the bulk of our natural instincts have been suppressed.

Quote:

One more question on ritual. Let's say someone has wronged me in a big enough way that is beyond me just shrugging it off. Rather than perform a ritual, isn't it more productive (and possibly more Satanic) to plot a way to really fuck with this person?




Doing a destruction ritual, would allow you to destroy any emotional or psychological power the person has over you, thus giving you perspective.

Quote:

Wouldn't it be better to go pour chemicals all over their car to destroy the paint, than to perform a ritual, for example? To me, that's true revenge. Performing a destruction ritual against someone who's wronged me just seems more reactive than proactive.




Ruining someone’s means of transportation, breaking laws, and risking possible fines, or jail time, seems more constructive, than severing any if all feelings regarding the incident and moving forward?

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#175143 - 07/04/06 02:45 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: Valek]
Zephirus Offline


Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 25
Okay, let me put it another way. If I had a way to physically get revenge with absolutely no chance of consequences on my side, why wouldn't I do it? Let's say some asshole outside a bar is giving me a hard time and being a real ass, insulting my friends and family, and as he walks off, he drops his wallet. I wait a moment. He's long gone, no one's around. I know the Satanic rule about not taking something that doesn't belong to you unless the owner begs you to. Does this rule apply for people who deserve revenge to be taken upon them? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'd steal his wallet. I'd probably just leave it there, that's damage enough to this asshole. Someone else will steal it probably, and either way, he's out of a wallet. Maybe I'd give it a nudge with my foot so it fell into the gutter.

I know this is corny, but just now, the image of that final scene in Batman Begins popped into my head, where Batman says: "I won't kill you...but I don't have to save you."

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#175144 - 07/04/06 02:53 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: Ares]
Zephirus Offline


Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 25
Quote:

Ruining someone’s means of transportation, breaking laws, and risking possible fines, or jail time, seems more constructive, than severing any if all feelings regarding the incident and moving forward?




Severing any feelings and moving forward? What happened to the Satanic concept of revenge?

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#175145 - 07/04/06 02:59 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: Zephirus]
Ares Offline


Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 63
Quote:

Severing any feelings and moving forward? What happened to the Satanic concept of revenge?




You have to examine, what is better deal for you, and moving on and not risking jail time, seems to me like the better deal.


Edited by Ares (07/04/06 03:02 PM)

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#175146 - 07/04/06 03:02 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: Zephirus]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
>>You're half-right about your assessment about
>>my feelings of ritual. I guess I would feel a bit
>>silly.

Which in turn, seems quite silly to me. But moving on...

>>But you're wrong about my concept of aesthetics,
>>and I do know how to behave at a wedding, funeral,
>>etc.

Like I said, in my experience most of the "I can't understand this second half of The Satanic Bible" types share those traits. It sounds like you can appreciate the beauty and strength of ritualistic trappings. So, what's the issue?

>>And no, I don't analyze movies as you suggest. I
>>simply watch and enjoy.

If you can suspend objective judgement in front of 90 minutes of video (yet still having "this is only a movie" in the back of your mind, no matter how intesne the movie gets), what makes you so sure you couldn't do it for 10 minutes in front of a Sigil of Baphomet and a couple of candles?

>>So, I suppose it has to do with the fact that I'm
>>partaking in a religious ritual. I am *not* a religious
>>person and never have been. This is why I can fully
>>explore things like astral projection, but not rites of
>>magic: because there is no religion attached to astral
>>projection. But hey, I didn't choose Satanism, it chose
>>me. Its philosophies match who I am very well.

Satanism IS a religion, whether you like it or not. You seem suspiciously afraid of being considered a "religious person". I see no problem with adhering to a religion whose dogma reflects what one truly feels inside. But even if you choose to view Satanism as the 7-Up of religions ("The UN-religion!"), which I wouldn't say is invalid, it begs the question as to why you'd have such a big problem with Satanic ritual. To quote The Satanic Bible, "If he accepts himself, but recognizes that ritual and ceremony are the important devices that his invented religions have utilized to sustain his faith in a lie, then it is the SAME FORM OF RITUAL that will sustain his faith in the truth--the primitive pageantry that will give his awareness of his own majestic being added substance."

>>So whether I delve into ritual at some point or not,
>>I still consider myself a Satanist.

You're not obligated to formally ritualize. However, I find that those who seem so defensive about not ritualizing are largely those who don't understand how it fits in, or still have irrational feelings of self-consciousness and thus can't "let go" of themselves in a controlled environment, and/or don't have the self-discipline or creativity to pull it off. Again, that's been my experience with many (read: not all but quite a lot) of the people who say they loved the Book of Lucifer, but not much else out of The Satanic Bible.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
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#175147 - 07/04/06 03:03 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: Ares]
Zephirus Offline


Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 25
For sure. Landing myself fines or jail time goes against self-preservation, I agree. But if I can take some measure of revenge (physical, corporeal; not ritual) that won't cost me anything, I'll do it. And if I feel it's worth my time and energy, which in most cases, it's not.

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#175148 - 07/04/06 03:29 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: Zephirus]
Valek Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 1022
Loc: Non-local
Personally I think it would be more fun to watch someone be undone by their own "misfortune" and instead of knowing why this is happening, watching them pleading for help from their own god while they sink into nothingness.

Basically they implode. Grab the popcorn
_________________________
Gravity seems weak until you look down.

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#175149 - 07/04/06 03:38 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: weles]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
>>Another is my lack of interest in accepting the notion
>>that someone is my better based on organizational title

I don't view COS members with higher titles as being immediately better than me. I see the titles for what they are: recognition of the work that the Satanists has done. We may all identify ourselves as Satanists, but the bottom line is some members are better at representing the organization better than others, and some clearly have more accomplishements that relate to the principles of Satanism.

I have met some Satanists who are not members yet certainly have a thorough understanding of Satanism. I've also run into members, even in the priesthood, that I flat-out could not stand, and would loathe being in the same room with. Though even in these latter cases, I could look at what they've done and have no doubt they were Satanists, let alone worthy of the titles they were given. But we're not expected to all get along. That's an inevitble by-product of having an organization that champions individualism.

>>(and I do find myself not in full agreement with
>>some of the writings of CoS leadership).

Again, neither do I. Hell, there are even essays of Dr. LaVey's that I disagree with. However, The Satanic Bible is another story. I have no disagreements with that. When two Satanists diagree on something, it's almost always in the application of Satanism, not Satanism itself. You'll find, for example, some Satanists who like using multi-channel surround sound and see great benefits of it for total environments, and others who are audiophile purists and hate any audio technology beyond vinyl. Neither is necessarily less of a Satanist than the other.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

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#175150 - 07/04/06 04:13 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: Bill_M]
Zephirus Offline


Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 25
I'm not really sure how I can suspend disbelief for a movie, but not ritualize, Bill. Good question. I'll have to ponder on this a while and try to figure out what my hang-up is. I guess it just boils down to the fact that I don't believe in the stuff. I understand that the ritual aspect is psychodrama as many people have said, and nobody expects an actual sick person to be healed due to a ritual being performed. In the end, it's up to me to decide how deep into the rabbit hole I want to go.

As always, thanks for everyone's valuable feedback, and for the stimulating discussion.

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#175151 - 07/04/06 05:07 PM "what matters most is how well you walk through the fire." [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12498
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
That is one of the best quotes I have ever read.

Thank you!

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#175152 - 07/04/06 06:44 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: weles]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

Another is my lack of interest in accepting the notion that someone is my better based on organizational title (I balk at this in the work I do in order to pay for my otherwise nice life, why would I take on more heirarchy socially?). I do not consider anyone to be my better, and do not accept what someone says to be true simply based on their role as a formal authority figure (and I do find myself not in full agreement with some of the writings of CoS leadership).




You are assuming titles have no basis in merit.

By that logic, why would you seek the consultation of an MD, or a Lawyer, or Professor? Since you somehow automatically are their equal.

Being a Magister doesn't mean much if something goes wrong with my car that I can't fix, unless the person I go to happened to be made a Magister in recognition of his success as a mechanic.

CoS titles are given in recognition of a) the individual's grasp of Satanism, and b) application of the same in their chosen field of endeavor. Quality control is a good thing. That "everyone is the equal" nonsense turns the world into shit.

Don't buy into egalitarian fallacies.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#175153 - 07/04/06 07:01 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: weles]
SueW Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/14/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: TN,United States
Quote:

I lose a measure of respect if they try to use their title to suppress dissent without even hearing it, or to enforce their will to flaunt their power even if their decision is to the detriment of accomplishing the shared goal of they and their subordinates. I accuse nobody here of doing that, I am just wary of it generally being a trait of heirarchal organization.





Wariness is a good trait. I have no arguement with questioning authority under the right circumstances. But I also have experiance with grand titles(elsewhere) who have the educational capacity of a flea, the patience of a Tazmanian Devil and believe that their bank account or cronism buys them astute wisdom of the ages. That has not been evidenced here- my experiance has been take it or leave it what you see is what you get among all that I have encountered under this banner over the years.
But, I feel, that it IS your loss if you donot advantage yourself of some of the knowledge and experiances that so many offer here freely.It is also your choice. One that I respect- for it is your life.Enjoy the journey-
Thank you for responding to my curiosity. It is sated for the moment.

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#175154 - 07/04/06 07:03 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: weles]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

Quote:

While there are provable biological differences between the races and statistically demonstrable performance levels in various activities, it is quite irrational to think that someone can be elite or not simply because of the color of their skin. Even if one comes from promising genetic stock, and by that we mean from ancestors who have proven their abilities to be superior in performance, this does not guarantee an individual's advancement.



I fully agree with the sentiment that genetic stock does not guarantee advancement. However, whether one's ancestors are proven to have superior performance abilities depends on ones metric. If someone values physical prowess over intellectualism, they may claim one group of genetic ancestors superior to another. Even in the intellectual realms, if one's value system prefers, say, edifice building to hunting ability, or shipbuilding to herbalism, there will be a different selection of which ancestors are more promising. There appears to be an implication (perhaps I am reading it "incorrectly") that the measure of superiority of genetic inheritance is objective, and that so is the Satanic assessment of Elite accomplishment. I think assessment of someones worth as a fellow Elite very much reflects one's internal value system and not an objective measure of universal performance. Just because I prefer European or Asian aesthetics and sciences, and consider people Elite based on their abilities in applying them, does not make them objectively superior. A wide variety of abilities and accomplishments, some of which I personally would find uninteresting, are possible. And, there are plenty of Western achievements I find dubious, which in some academic circles rampantly displace other ideas simply because they are Western. Here's one example: Christianity.




You are reading it incorrectly. The quoted passage was talking about general probability. Stratification is a natural process.

When considering the role of Christianity in history, you have to consider who is was bad for, who it was good for, and why.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#175155 - 07/04/06 07:35 PM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: Bill_M]
WolfMoon Offline


Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 735
Quote:


>>(and I do find myself not in full agreement with
>>some of the writings of CoS leadership).

Again, neither do I. Hell, there are even essays of Dr. LaVey's that I disagree with. However, The Satanic Bible is another story. I have no disagreements with that. When two Satanists diagree on something, it's almost always in the application of Satanism, not Satanism itself. You'll find, for example, some Satanists who like using multi-channel surround sound and see great benefits of it for total environments, and others who are audiophile purists and hate any audio technology beyond vinyl. Neither is necessarily less of a Satanist than the other.




Another good point, Bill_M. Satanists, as individuals, do not agree on everything. If we did we wouldn't be much of individuals! We simply share a common understanding of our religion set forth in The Satanic Bible which explains what Satanism is.

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#175156 - 07/05/06 11:09 AM Re: Am I too compassionate to be a Satanist? [Re: Tiberia]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Well done.

For the most part, I would say, do not give them money, unless you've observed them and can mostly tell that they are legit, or unless they are providing a service of some kind--music, entertainment, education. "Naiively" take them at their word, and give them food, give them dog food, yada yada, if you're going to give them anything.

(My only sometimes-exception to the rule is when they ask for bus fare. I'm so enthusiastic to maybe, hopefully get rid of them--if only for the day--that I'm more than willing to pony up a nickel or two .)

I also do not give ANYTHING, ever, to anyone whose sign reads "God Bless" or has any reference to religion, Jeebus, or a higher power. If that higher power is so fantastic, let THEM feed and shelter you, says I.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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