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Re: Merry Xmas. #18227
12/26/03 06:35 PM
12/26/03 06:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 203
Europe
Redhead Offline
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Europe
I don't understand the idea of Satanist wishing one another merry Christmas in any form (indulgence day, whatever other name).

The commonest explanation for this weird practice is "there is no bad opportunity for party and presents" and I find this to be perfectly valid reasoning - of a child.

However, if one claims the ability to define herself/himself (as a Satanist in this case), it should include a certain level of maturity. The wise ones choose their battles - and their parties too , I might add.


I believe there's been a topic on total environments here some time ago - and I find it odd that those who claim to be creators of their own reality so readily participate in practice of those they so gladly cathegorise as " herd" any other day of the year.

Now I am new around here (but not new to Satanism at all) and it's quite possible this may come across to some of you as somewhat "unholier then thou" attitude - and so be it. The thing is, I understand that the younger Satanists, those who still live and/or depend upon their parents in some way have to participate in "driving home for Christmas" mood. I don't sit bitterly as the "world" celebrates; I have kindly thanked for the cards and wishes I received from those who don't know me well, and that was about it. The ability to steal a perfectly good day away from the flow of the world, to have in unaffected by the multitude and their customs on days they are so everpresent like Christmas, is truly the taste of triumph.

Anton S. LaVey once wrote of the money losing it's worth. And when Satanist use their medium (this messageboard), where they are free to create the exact world they want to, to congratulate each others Christmas, it comes awfully close to something quite similar: words losing their meaning.

Hail Satan!


Hail Satan! If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative. - Ludwig Wittgenstein
Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Redhead] #18228
12/26/03 06:58 PM
12/26/03 06:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,141
Canada
reprobate Offline

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Quote:

The commonest explanation for this weird practice is "there is no bad opportunity for party and presents" and I find this to be perfectly valid reasoning - of a child.




What wisdom cometh from the mouths of babes.

Christmas was a party season long before Christianity came to Europe. Yule and Saturnalia are two names for the solstice celebration, the renewal of the flame of life in the time of darkest nights. In order to recruit pagan converts, who were loathe to give up their existent feast-days, Christians had to schedule Christmas to coincide with these holidays. This is relatively common knowledge among those with any interest in the origins of holidays; it's the reason Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas on any specific day. Jesus was probably born sometime in spring or summer.

In short, Christians co-opted Christmas. Ain't no reason that can't work both ways.

Last edited by reprobate; 12/26/03 06:59 PM.

reprobate
Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: reprobate] #18229
12/26/03 07:29 PM
12/26/03 07:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 203
Europe
Redhead Offline
Redhead  Offline

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Europe
I am perfectly aware of the origin of Christmas, as the matter of fact the origin of each of Christain holidays. However, it doesn't have much to do with what I have written. The sign of cross had different meaning prior of Christianity too, so did the swastika before the WWII. But do they bear that meaning in the world today? The basis of coherent conversation is the fact that one accepts the meaning of terms they use - and when I say Christmas I mean what 25th of December means today.

Anyway, judging by what I have read, I seriously doubt that any of posters replying to this topic had a real Yuletide celebration (though I know one who has, and I congratulate him wholeheartedly).



Hail Satan! If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative. - Ludwig Wittgenstein
Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Redhead] #18230
12/26/03 07:37 PM
12/26/03 07:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,141
Canada
reprobate Offline

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reprobate  Offline

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Canada
A holiday is not a symbol. It is not a term in a conversation. It does not need to have a conventional, agreed-upon meaning to be accepted or rejected.

My Christmas was spent having a nap, phoning my girlfriend across the continent, and teaching my little sister how to play Go. Is this what Christmas "means" to the "world"? Who cares?

If we're having a good time, what difference does it make?


reprobate
Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Redhead] #18231
12/26/03 08:32 PM
12/26/03 08:32 PM
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Sarracenia Offline
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The commonest explanation for this weird practice is "there is no bad opportunity for party and presents" and I find this to be perfectly valid reasoning - of a child.

How is it immature to want presents and parties?

However, if one claims the ability to define herself/himself (as a Satanist in this case), it should include a certain level of maturity. The wise ones choose their battles - and their parties too , I might add.

No one was dragged into this thread. The posters who have chosen to reply have done so out of their own volition. They have chosen their party.

I believe there's been a topic on total environments here some time ago - and I find it odd that those who claim to be creators of their own reality so readily participate in practice of those they so gladly cathegorise as " herd" any other day of the year.

It makes perfect sense. A Satanist who has the freedom to create his environment has the ability to escape the herd as well as join it when it benefits him. No Satanist would stay away from anything he enjoys just because the herd enjoys it as well.

Perhaps you have the impression that everyone in LttD is greeting each other a merry Christmas. This is not true. There are some who have openly expressed their dislike of Christmas, and many others who are not celebrating this holiday and have stayed silent about it.

Do not make assumptions on what LttD members have actually done this season.



"Civilization is the precarious labor and luxury of a minority; the basic masses of mankind hardly change from millennium to millennium." - Will Durant

ToV
Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Redhead] #18232
12/26/03 11:21 PM
12/26/03 11:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Vancouver, BC, Canada
Dan_Dread Offline
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Vancouver, BC, Canada
So let me get this straight.
You reject the celebration of Xmas simply because the 'herd' at large does it?
Careful, I think your baby is going down the drain.




"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein --------------------
Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Redhead] #18233
12/27/03 02:46 AM
12/27/03 02:46 AM

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Quote:

I don't understand the idea of Satanist wishing one another merry Christmas in any form




Maybe some Satanists find it fun and amusing. It certainly tickles my pink. While I personally dislike the idea of christmas season, I have no problem telling someone else Merry Christmas. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I can't tell someone else who does to enjoy it and wish them well.

Quote:

"there is no bad opportunity for party and presents" and I find this to be perfectly valid reasoning - of a child.





And what is wrong with the reasoning of a child? It often times makes more sense than the reasoning of "mature adults". Besides if one enjoys parties and presents, why should one abstain from the opportunity?

Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Redhead] #18234
12/27/03 06:48 AM
12/27/03 06:48 AM

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C'mon, lighten up!

Christmas is a day of fun for many people regardless of their religion. I celebrate with my Christian family. That does not make me any less of a satanist.

Sure, satanism is about indulgence, but lets also be a little realistic. The majority of people (myself included) have a job. I cannot indulge around-the-clock. I think I speak for many people when I say Christmas is one of the few days in the year when most people can really indulge because of the simple fact most people do not have to work or go to school that day.

Anyway, regardless of how you feel about the Christmas holiday, I sincerely hope you had fun that day.

BTW, I made it a point to make my post right after midnight just so I could be the first. That may have been a little immature; however I did amuse myself by doing this. I indulged in amusing myself by being a little immature, I think this little act was truly satanic on my part.

question #18235
12/27/03 07:23 AM
12/27/03 07:23 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Vancouver, BC, Canada
Dan_Dread Offline
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Ok not to sound like an asshole...
But why do you capitalize 'Christmas' and 'Christian' in multiple instances, yet fail to capitalize 'satanism' or 'satanic', also in multiple instances?



"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein --------------------
Re: question [Re: Dan_Dread] #18236
12/27/03 08:20 AM
12/27/03 08:20 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,474
Minnesota.
Felstorm Offline
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You know. That really is a good question.

I catch myself doing that sometimes, too. Reflexive habits are hardest to break I guess.





"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire
Re: question [Re: Dan_Dread] #18237
12/27/03 08:23 AM
12/27/03 08:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,976
The Deep South
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That may be just a side effect of Microsoft Word spelling utility.


You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein

Re: question [Re: Dan_Dread] #18238
12/27/03 08:44 AM
12/27/03 08:44 AM

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Very good question, and I do not have a good answer, merely an excuse. It is a habit developed from using the Associated Press Style form of writing. Capitalizing the words "Christian" and related words and using lowercase when using "satanism' is proper when put in the context of using any form of communication using mainstream mass media. Mass communications is one of my majors in college. However, on this forum, such grammar is not really acceptable on this particular board. I admit I was wrong. Anyway, I hope you had a merry Satanic christmas.

Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Redhead] #18239
12/27/03 08:52 AM
12/27/03 08:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 614
Detroit, MI
Sammael Offline
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Quote:

I don't understand the idea of Satanist wishing one another merry Christmas in any form (indulgence day, whatever other name).



I agree. My line this year was "Happy Thursday!" I enjoy Dec. 25 as a day off, and an excuse to get a little drunk the night before. My holiday was monday night. Christmas is a slave holiday, and, as such, is beneath me.

Quote:

I find it odd that those who claim to be creators of their own reality so readily participate in practice of those they so gladly cathegorise as " herd" any other day of the year.



Agreed again. How can one reject Christianity, but still celebrate it's #1 holiday? I find that just as amusing as Christians who celebrate Halloween.

Quote:

The ability to steal a perfectly good day away from the flow of the world, to have in unaffected by the multitude and their customs on days they are so everpresent like Christmas, is truly the taste of triumph.



Couldn't have said it better myself. Yet another means of seperating one's self from the ignorant masses. Not having to deal with: large, frustrated shopping crowds, increased expenses, trying to return things you got two (or more) of, having to make sure that no one else was getting so and so the same thing you did...... A reward in its self.

But if any Satanist finds a reason TO celebrate Christmas..... Whatever floats your boat.

Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: reprobate] #18240
12/27/03 11:05 PM
12/27/03 11:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 203
Europe
Redhead Offline
Redhead  Offline

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Europe
Quote:

A holiday is not a symbol. It is not a term in a conversation. It does not need to have a conventional, agreed-upon meaning to be accepted or rejected.






Not in the same way as symbols I have mentioned (graphical
symbols), but it still bears a strong symbollical meaning nevertheless.
Christmas customs - all the shows of birth of Jesus in highschools theatres, the Morning star on Christmas tree, the gathering of families, are symbolical representatives of something that supposedly happened some 2000 years ago.

Christmas is a term in conversation - here and now. And if you were referring to Christmas as a holiday, and I was talking about my dog named Christmas, it would be hard to make sense of it all. Any term needs to have a very fixed meaning, otherwise different sides are talking of different things bearing the same names. Many misunderstanings arise from this practice.




Hail Satan! If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative. - Ludwig Wittgenstein
Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Sarracenia] #18241
12/27/03 11:11 PM
12/27/03 11:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 203
Europe
Redhead Offline
Redhead  Offline

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Europe
Quote:

How is it immature to want presents and parties?







A child doesn't care what occasion it is, as long as it gets presents - and that is wonderfully ok.

However, I expect somebody who is the centre of her/his own world to treat themselves with fine things they desire frequently - and they don't need to accept any given opportunity society indorces as present time - particulary when religious holidays
of Christianity are involved. I find it to be the matter of style, if nothing else.

Quote:

No one was dragged into this thread. The posters who have chosen to reply have done so out of their own volition. They have chosen their party.






I think it was quite clear from my post that I was referring to "party" as a social gathering of entertainment, or something along those lines.

Quote:

No Satanist would stay away from anything he enjoys just because the herd enjoys it as well.





I say that a Satanist in this situation could give it a though or two why s/he finds the same things enjoyable as the group of people s/he cathegorises as the other pole to.


Quote:

Perhaps you have the impression that everyone in LttD is greeting each other a merry Christmas. This is not true. There are some who have openly expressed their dislike of Christmas, and many others who are not celebrating this holiday and have stayed silent about it.

Do not make assumptions on what LttD members have actually done this season.





And perhaps (or maybe definitely ) I stated that I was adressing only those who have replied to the thread.

I have read a lot of interesting posts on this forum and if I considered people fools, I wouldn't have bothered posting at all.

I respect another's lair, though these "upper floors" are called "kennel" as much as I can see, so I suppose utmost courtesy is not a must.





Hail Satan! If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative. - Ludwig Wittgenstein
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