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#18257 - 12/29/03 04:23 PM Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: reprobate]
Redhead Offline


Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 203
Loc: Europe
Quote:

You switched from talking about the semiotics of the holiday, to the semantic meaning of the word.




Partially, and for a reason that I believe there is a strong connection between the two.

However, I am pretty tired at the moment and English is a foreign language to me, so I suggest we postpone this argument for another time or thread.

Perhaps till Easter .... ?
_________________________
Hail Satan! If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative. - Ludwig Wittgenstein

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#18258 - 12/29/03 05:14 PM Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Redhead]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:

However, I am pretty tired at the moment and English is a foreign language to me, so I suggest we postpone this argument for another time or thread.




Sure. Suffice it to say, my point is that a holiday, unlike a word, is what you make it. So, let's make it fun.

What is your native language?
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reprobate

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#18259 - 12/30/03 07:52 AM Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Redhead]
ochsenschaedel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 1132
Loc: NŁrnberg, Germany
I agree with you.
Not only because I really do, but also because you are the only one who shares my opinion here, so you just became very precious to me


Sounds to me like somebody is desperately seeking the approval of others.
How sad is that?
What do you care if and in what shape a Satanist celebrates xmas?
Xmas has ceased to be a xtian holiday a long time ago. Any self-respecting xtian would deny this of course. However the reality of it is right in your face.
Take a look in your local WalMart a few days before the 25th.
People of every religious background are fighting for the last Bey-Blade toy for the youngsters.
My point:
There is a big difference in the traditional xtian celebration of xmas, and the capitalistic consumer-fest it has mutated into.
Sure, you could hide in your basement and just "bah - humbug" your way through it all.
OR, you could be truly Satanic about it and adapt. Twist and bend it to suit your needs. See it as the fest of indulgence that clever marketing has made it to be. No one says you have to exchange gifts with people you can't stand.
Use your imagination a little, that's what it's there for.
should you nonetheless decide to "bah-humbug" the whole thing...fine, that is your choice. Just quit knocking everyone else that wishes to indulge.

HS!
Markus
_________________________


"A casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. " ...Friedrich Nietzsche

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#18260 - 12/30/03 12:08 PM Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: ochsenschaedel]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

you could be truly Satanic about it and adapt. Twist and bend it to suit your needs




I like the way you think

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#18261 - 12/30/03 10:43 PM Re: Merry Xmas.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, I never expected this post to be a source of colorful discussion. I was really expecting a lot of good-will exchanges--maybe sharing a few christmas (lowercase intentional) stories. I didn't expect to offend anyone with this post. However, to those I offended, I thank you for your entertaining replies. That was quite the present you have given me.

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#18262 - 12/31/03 05:21 AM Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: reprobate]
Redhead Offline


Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 203
Loc: Europe
Quote:

Suffice it to say, my point is that a holiday, unlike a word, is what you make it. So, let's make it fun.








I understand your position, but will stick to mine: all the aspects of culture (holidays included) have semiotic value and all of its phenomena can function as signs, as elements in communication systems that follow certain semantic rules and laws that cannot be recognized in direct experience. .These signs are untransparent, and each of the meanings bears an ideological dimension.

And the results I came with after giving some thought to subjects similar to the one we discussed here are maybe best expressed with Nomen est omen.

I am sure you understand the implications of this, resulting in my choice to ignore Christmas.


Quote:

What is your native language?





Croatian.


Edited by Redhead (12/31/03 05:25 AM)
_________________________
Hail Satan! If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative. - Ludwig Wittgenstein

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#18263 - 12/31/03 05:36 AM Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: ochsenschaedel]
Redhead Offline


Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 203
Loc: Europe
Quote:

Sounds to me like somebody is desperately seeking the approval of others.
How sad is that?






Sound to me like somebody (hint: you) fails to recognize a joke. Sammael, on the other hand, didn't and had replied in the same funny tone.


Quote:

There is a big difference in the traditional xtian celebration of xmas, and the capitalistic consumer-fest it has mutated into.




Yes. But why on earth do you consider it any better to succumb to propaganda machinery?


Quote:

OR, you could be truly Satanic about it and adapt. Twist and bend it to suit your needs. See it as the fest of indulgence that clever marketing has made it to be.




I will be the judge of what's true Satanic for myself. And I choose not to fall under influence of clever marketing, and pick my celebration/indulgence day upon my clever self.

My reasons are in the post above.
_________________________
Hail Satan! If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative. - Ludwig Wittgenstein

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#18264 - 12/31/03 05:39 AM Re: Merry Xmas.
Redhead Offline


Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 203
Loc: Europe
Quote:

However, to those I offended, I thank you for your entertaining replies. That was quite the present you have given me.





You didn't offend me, and yes this was an interesting discussion.

You're welcome, and ... you owe me a present then
_________________________
Hail Satan! If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative. - Ludwig Wittgenstein

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#18265 - 12/31/03 07:32 AM Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Redhead]
ochsenschaedel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 1132
Loc: NŁrnberg, Germany
Ok, forget I ever tried. You understood nothing.
I'm not further wasting my time.
Goodbye.
_________________________


"A casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. " ...Friedrich Nietzsche

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#18266 - 12/31/03 10:09 AM Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Redhead]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Croatian is a beautiful language. I really wish I had the opportunity to learn it.

You talk as if you have some intellectual background. Is this accurate?

I know I said I'd let the matter drop, but your response was intriguing, and I'd like you to clarify a bit.

Quote:

elements in communication systems that follow certain semantic rules and laws




Are you a law-follower or a law-maker?

Whom does a sign influence without being recognized?

What would happen if a Satanist were to enjoy his Winter Solstice in a "Christmassy" manner? It seems to me that there are two possibilities here as to what you have in mind.

On the one hand, perhaps you are afraid that he would come off as Christian to other people, who see him haivng a good time at Christmas. Is the participant beholden to a meaning defined by other people's expectations, rather than his own?

Or, on the other hand, perhaps you think that he will become more Christian himself by participating in "their" holiday. Do you think the semiotic influence is subconscious, especially pernicious since the practitioner is so oblivious to it? LaVey suggested that this was how curses work, so why not holidays?

(But then, couldn't it be suggested that Christmas is part of what makes Christianity less Christian? The Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to celebrate it for exactly this reason!)
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reprobate

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#18267 - 12/31/03 10:31 PM Re: Merry Xmas.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Personally, I'm not offended by xmas trees, jingle bells, cookies and presents. Xmas has been a tradition in my family for ages. It's meaningful to me because family is important to me and I have such a joy on xmas day. I do not care what xmas means to Christians for I am not a Christian. I'm certainly not going to snub my nose at things I've always liked just because I'm a Satanist. I have a feeling that some people behave in this way. They go through life thinking "I CAN'T do this because I'm a Satanist"-even though they would really like to. Life ought to be fun. If you love xmas day, then celebrate it. If you want to think that such a celebration is contradictory to the satanic philosophy, then be sure to ask yourself about the contradictory nature of Christians celebrating this holiday which actually derives from pagan traditions. A Christian certainly wouldnít celebrate xmas with pagan intentions-they have made it their own holiday-like I have!. Likewise, when a Satanist says "I love xmas" it does not mean that he worships baby Jesus. It does mean that he's not afraid to admit that he indulges in what brings him pleasure. Isnít that the ultimate life-style of a Satanist? Címon people, donít let xmas scare you, itís just the Solstice celebration by another name. *wink*

Pagan Xmas Traditions

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#18268 - 01/01/04 12:01 AM Its finally over!!!
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Christmas (or actually the time that goes from Halloween to New Years Eve) is a period of aesthetical torment for the senses. I detest Christmas, not because I'm a Satanist, but because of all the annoying crap that is forced into you. You can't just chose to ignore it. Everywhere you go it the ever-present jingle musak, repeated and repeated as an instrument of dementia-inducing torture. Everywhere you look there is a maddening overabundance of tacky kirsch ornaments... This year the monstrosity of fashion seems to be giant inflatable Santa Clauses whose slowly convulsive movements remind me those of a bloated corpse anchored to the bottom of the sea.

I have even made a list of Jewish-owned stores and places so I least I can do some casual shopping without having my senses overflowed by the sound of carols and the sight red and green plastic grotesqueries.

The "Christmas night" itself doesn't bother me. It's my choice of participating or not. And I usually chose to do, since I enjoy sharing food and drink with family and friends. Who cares if its some fictionals guy's brithday, as long as the food is good!

But no holiday can compare with my favorite celebration of the year, the real birth of my God and savior! Thatís March 30, of course, the day my mother ended the 9-month long process of frabricating ME!
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You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#18269 - 01/01/04 12:40 PM Re: Merry Xmas.
Sammael Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 614
Loc: Detroit, MI
Quote:

Címon people, donít let xmas scare you, itís just the Solstice celebration by another name. *wink*





Yes, and the solstice was on Dec. 22 this year. That was my holiday. Dec. 25 holds no meaning for me. I understand how some people can celebrate xmas without any religious overtones. But when your family has been known (on several occasions) to break out a birthday cake and sing "Happy Birthday" to Jesus, it becomes quite contradictory to your nature.
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www.churchofsatan.com
I am a Vampire.

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#18270 - 01/01/04 05:31 PM Re: Merry Xmas. [Re: Sammael]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Your family does THAT? Birthday cake to Jesus?? Yikes, if anyone in my family did that the rest would fall on the floor in fits of laughter. Hmm, that's an idea for next year...*giggle*. Do they really do that? Ooo, there are so many ways you could turn that 'bad thing' into a 'fun thing'.

Isn't it interesting how most religions have holidays surrounding the times of the equinoxes and solstices? Though some religions may not focus on the change in season as much as others do, it is not by accident that those holidays were placed at those times. The solstices and equinoxes are significant to many people.

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#18271 - 01/02/04 12:26 AM Re: Merry Xmas.
Sammael Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 614
Loc: Detroit, MI
It hasn't happened in the last few years, but it has happened several times before.
Yup. That's my family.
Needless to say, there are about 4 people (out of 13 on my Mom's side) who know about my affiliation w/ the CoS. Mom, sister, and two cousins. The rest would die on the spot.
_________________________
www.churchofsatan.com
I am a Vampire.

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