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#188735 - 09/21/06 10:02 PM Re: The Left Hand Path. [Re: Lust]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

All of the people who have come to this board, and have asked "What is the Left Hand Path?" should read the above.




Yes. They should read it and reject it.

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#188736 - 09/21/06 10:07 PM Re: not beneficial. [Re: Asmedious]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

...I do not feel that my membership would be beneficial at this time for either one of us.




I agree.

Please don't.

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#188737 - 09/21/06 11:01 PM Re: Sure. [Re: Nemo]
Asmedious Offline


Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 617
Quote:

How interesting.

You wish to define Satanism as what Anton LaVey meant (in your opinion) but not necessarily what he wrote (which was his opinion).

So if anyone wishes to point out to you anything the Doktor wrote that disagrees with your opinion, you can deny it is relevant any longer.

Nonsense.

You are only fooling yourself if you actually believe this.





I do not reject what he wrote. On the contrary, I believe that I embrasse his ideals. However, as with many "doctrines" there is a certain amount of interpretation involved.
My interpretation of the Satanic bible is that Satanists think for themselves.

My view of Dr. LaVey, is not that of a theologian beating people over the head with his ideas and wishing for them to follow in his footsteps, and have them become little LaVey carbon copies, but one of the greatest kinds of teachers that exist. The best teachers are not the ones that teach students what to think, but instead gives them the tools to use that will help them learn to truly THINK FOR THEMSELVES. I see Dr LaVey, as a liberator of minds, and not an enslaver to his ideals. People may argue, that I do not understand the man, since I have never met him. True. But the only one who could tell me that I am way off base, is Dr. LaVey himself.

You can teach a person what, and how to think, which can give them the feeling of being accepted in to the fold, or you can teach a person to think for themselves and set them truly free.

Quote:

So if anyone wishes to point out to you anything the Doktor wrote that disagrees with your opinion, you can deny it is relevant any longer.




I do not have to deny it, but I can question it to see if it is still relevant today. Perhaps if he was still around, he too might have made some adjustments to his theories in order to better fit them into changes in his own life.

Is it realistic to believe that what the Doktor believed in 1966 is exactly the same thing that he believed in 1976, or 1986? As peoples lives and experiences change over the years, is it not normal for some of their views to be adjusted as well?
If the original people who wrote the christian bible, or the Quran were still around today, would it not be possible that they might look at the people who still follow their writings of so long ago, and shake their heads in disbelief, that their followers have not grown in their ideas?

Quote:

You are only fooling yourself if you actually believe this.





Perhaps I am, and it is possible that further down the road, I might realize that I was indeed foolish for my present beliefs. But if that time comes, I will be able to admit that I have grown and matured, and will be able to move on, without being chained by pride to my past beliefs for fear of being ridiculed for being mistaken.

Quote:

Quote:
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I just chose not to be officially affiliated with any, since there is no guarantee that our ideals will always be the same.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The answer to this incredible dilemma would be to resign.

No one chains you to an oar in the COS boat.

The exit door is plainly marked and those who want to leave are (ahem) encouraged to use it.




So why enter the door in the first place?

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#188738 - 09/21/06 11:03 PM Re: The Left Hand Path. [Re: Nemo]
Asmedious Offline


Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 617
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All of the people who have come to this board, and have asked "What is the Left Hand Path?" should read the above.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes. They should read it and reject it.




Absolutely true. Read it, reject it, and think for themselves.

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#188739 - 09/21/06 11:08 PM Re: not beneficial. [Re: Nemo]
Asmedious Offline


Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 617
Quote:

...I do not feel that my membership would be beneficial at this time for either one of us.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I agree.

Please don't.





Oh Nemo, I think we'd get along just fine

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#188740 - 09/22/06 12:51 AM Re: Thinking versus nonsense. [Re: Asmedious]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
If they truly think for themselves then they will reject the assumption that freedom to think anything desired does not equate to thinking clearly.

You propose a dogma of freedom verson reason.

You may keep it.

Reason wins every time.

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#188741 - 09/22/06 12:53 AM Re: get along. [Re: Asmedious]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Another assumption based on what you believe rather than what someone (in this case me) has written.

I can get along with you.

Your assumptions, however, are quite hopeless.

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#188742 - 09/22/06 12:56 AM Re: not "worthy" [Re: Asmedious]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Give me examples of how the Church of Satan has changed over the last 10 years.

Occasionally I see people making this tired claim, that the Church of Satan has "changed", yet when asked for examples they are unable to produce them.

.... and they are usually people who were never in a position to know one way or another in the first place.

You are tilting at windmills.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#188743 - 09/22/06 01:49 AM Re: not "worthy" [Re: Asmedious]
Maya Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 1447
Loc: New England
I do agree with you on one point: a static philosophy is one doomed to fail in practice. Ideas must either grow or be thrown onto the proverbial trash heap of history. That is one of the many things that makes Satanism unique as a religion. Satanists do not claim "divine" knowledge and are therefore free to grow without violating the doctrine. Traditional religionists paint themselves into a corner by proclaiming that their doctrines were given to them by a supreme, omniscient deity (usually through a convenient intermediary.) When they are forced to change with the times, as it were, they change bits and pieces. To any Satanist, this is blatant hypocrisy. Fortunately for religionists, most people are either incapable of seeing this or choose not to do so. Aforementioned religionists have become masterful in using circular un-logic, half-truths, and outright lies to answer anyone smart enough to figure out their racket and confront them.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. Maybe you have some sort of affiliation phobia. You wouldn't be the first person. As far as I can tell, you are a reasonable person and genuinely sincere. Perhaps you will some day see a flaw in your present thinking and join the CoS. Perhaps not. I hardly think it matters in the larger picture. I am just a member of the CoS, but the policy is that the Church neither wants nor needs those not completely sure of where they stand, as far as I know. I for one totally agree.

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#188744 - 09/22/06 01:56 AM Re: "I do not reject what he wrote." [Re: Asmedious]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

I do not reject what he wrote.




Then read what he wrote on this issue:

Those who disparage and belittle the Church of Satan to an obsessive degree reveal their fetish. In reality and practice, by their consuming interest, they reveal their true religion to be—the Church of Satan. Otherwise, they would turn on their heel, walk away, and refuse to subject themselves to that which they need not. Clearly, they need us. We don’t need them.

Satanism is the only religion which serves to encourage and enhance one’s individual preferences, so long as there is admission of those needs. Thus, one’s personal and indelible religion (the picture) is integrated into a perfect frame. It’s a celebration of individuality without hypocrisy, of solidarity without mindlessness, of objective subjectivity. There need be no deviation from these principles. They should summarily negate internecine strife and bickering. Any attempts at Satanic “reformation” should be seen for what they are: creating problems where none exist. There should be no place in any religion for reformers whose very religion is the fetish of reformation. There is even a place and title for compulsive dissidents, and if they can wear the mantle, they are welcome. They would delude themselves to be revolutionaries. In our camp, they are called “House Masochists.”

LaVey laughs and quotes Dracula: "If you will fall down and worship me - consider, practice, allow yourself to be a reflection of my needs, decide to chose me as your master - it will literally free you to go out into the world and be free yourself."

That answers the question, "Why the Church of Satan?" Because I know the power of certain words and the implications that they have in people's everyday lives and when something loses its impact, it becomes ineffectual. So again, alienation is often very powerful if you use it to your best advantage.

The Church of Satan will be the pivotal point for an acknowledged belief system of the 21st century, incorporating significant numbers of people. After I’m gone, no single individual will serve to lead the organization. Rather, it will consist of a syndicated group of leaders presided over by a chairman. The “Satanic Army” is comprised of individuals, not cultists.

If you cannot find freedom within this street smart perspective then you have missed the entire point of the Church of Satan.

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#188745 - 09/22/06 07:55 AM Re: Sure. [Re: Asmedious]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:

You can teach a person what, and how to think, which can give them the feeling of being accepted in to the fold, or you can teach a person to think for themselves and set them truly free.





You suggest that a person can be taught to be a Satanist, this is an impossible task. You are either born a Satanist or you aren't one at all. As simple as that. The Satanic Bible was written by a Satanist for Satanists.



Quote:

Is it realistic to believe that what the Doktor believed in 1966 is exactly the same thing that he believed in 1976, or 1986?




YES!


Edited by Unknown (09/22/06 08:11 AM)

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#188746 - 09/22/06 08:31 AM Satan Speaks [Re: Asmedious]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:

Perhaps “Satan Speaks,”




Dr. LaVey did express some very strong feelings in this particular book about The Church of Satan.

Anyone who resists affiliation with the Church of Satan yet draws from it for any reason, personal or financial, is not independant, only parasitic.
_________________________









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#188747 - 09/22/06 09:55 AM Re: Satan Speaks [Re: Unknown]
Asmedious Offline


Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 617
You have all given me quite a large plate of food for thought. It will take time to try to digest it all.

While I do that, I do have a question about this quote.

Quote:

Anyone who resists affiliation with the Church of Satan yet draws from it for any reason, personal or financial, is not independant, only parasitic.





I am confused how the above quote and the idea of, one does not have to join the CoS to be a Satanist can both be valid.

I am willing to consider the possibility that perhaps I was being "Parasitic" for calling myself a Satanist, yet not wishing to join the CoS, but Dr. LaVey stated that it is not neccessary to do so.

Also after reading Nemos' responses, I am also willing to consider the possibility that I am a Pseudo-Satanist, and not a real "Satanist." The problem with that idea is that I know that I AM a Satanist. Nemo or perhaps other CoS members might not feel that I am, and that is their right. However, the only one who would be able to say for certain (in my opinion) is the person who originally coined the term.

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#188748 - 09/22/06 10:18 AM Re: not "worthy" [Re: Svengali]
Asmedious Offline


Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 617
Quote:

Give me examples of how the Church of Satan has changed over the last 10 years.

Occasionally I see people making this tired claim, that the Church of Satan has "changed", yet when asked for examples they are unable to produce them.

.... and they are usually people who were never in a position to know one way or another in the first place.

You are tilting at windmills.





Point taken. I mis-spoke (wrote), if I said that the CoS has changed in the past ten years. I am not a member, and would have no way of knowing that.
What I was attempting to express, is that the original founder of the CoS is no longer around, and to me HE WAS THE Church of Satan.
This is the biggest and most profound change in the past ten years that I am aware of, and to me, a very important change.

With that said, I would again wish to express that I do support the present organization because I recongize the benefit of Satanism being represented by them and giving the Philosophy validity and structure. I would go even farther by financially supporting it, if it was within my means to do so, while still stopping shor of being a card carrying member.
Maybe the poster who stated that I might have an organization phobia is right.

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#188749 - 09/22/06 10:34 AM Re: not "worthy" [Re: Asmedious]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:


What I was attempting to express, is that the original founder of the CoS is no longer around, and to me HE WAS THE Church of Satan.
This is the biggest and most profound change in the past ten years that I am aware of, and to me, a very important change.






So in other words, you are not interested in anyone carrying on Dr. LaVey's work. You wanted to join a personality cult.

It is really better then that you don't affiliate with the Church of Satan. That is not what he would have wanted then, and it is certainly not what we want now.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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