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#188750 - 09/22/06 11:11 AM Throwing out a few thoughts [Re: Asmedious]
Serua Offline


Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Canada
I am not yet a CoS member, I'm rather new to the board, but I just felt like throwing out a few comments/thoughts on this entire topic and what I've read.

As I have understood it, personally, the CoS does not seek out members. It seeks neither to draw anyone in nor to teach them in any sense. It is simply there for those who seek it and choose by their own free will to ally themselves with it. In fact, that is one of the many points that gives me a great respect for it.

Therefore, if you believe in what Anton LaVey wrote, if you find yourself within those very pages and choose to call yourself a Satanist .... are you not, by that very act, allying yourself with Anton LaVey, himself and by your own very nature...with the CoS?

True, you are not a member until you become a member. I guess my confusion stems from the wish to not ally yourself with the very organization that it would seem, you have chosen to ally yourself with. It simply seems rather nonsensical, in my personal opinion.

Reason would dictate that you either are or are not a Satanist, either do or do not agree with the writings of Anton LaVey and therefore would not find yourself unsure of membership in the organization. You would either seek it or walk through the perverbial exit door.

Of course, this is only my personal opinion, but I found the matter rather confusing as a whole. In general, I am fascinated by such curious things.

I personally, see no grey lines. There is, symbolically speaking, black and white in these situations. Grey, in my opinion, is simply fence sitting. Fence sitting symbolizes a rather neutral, safe and cowardly way to avoid choosing where you stand on an issue or in life, and as such symbolizes mediocracy. Of course, this is simply how I look at things, personally.

I would rather be condemned for my views than sit upon the fence.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Anton LaVey and the church both share a very similar outlook on these matters. There is no room for grey and indecision. No?

The confusion confuses me. lol

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#188751 - 09/22/06 11:20 AM Re: not "worthy" [Re: Svengali]
Asmedious Offline


Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 617
Quote:

So in other words, you are not interested in anyone carrying on Dr. LaVey's work. You wanted to join a personality cult.





That is totally off the mark. I do not understand how you could possibly reach that conclusion from what I have written. First of all, I do not wish to join any "cult." (Church)

Second, I do indeed wish that Dr. LaVeys work be carried on, I just have doubts about it being truly possible to do so, without him in the picture.

Quote:

It is really better then that you don't affiliate with the Church of Satan. That is not what he would have wanted then, and it is certainly not what we want now.




If I applied for membership and if you are in a position to refuse the request, then that is fine. However, I did not apply for it. I was merely stating my reasons for not wishing to do so. I was responding to a question. I realized from the start that it was a no win situation on my part, but I have attempted to express my beliefs as best as I am able to do so, and I have tried to do it respectfully.

If you read back several posts you will see that I was the one who originally said that "I am not worthy" when asked why I did not join. This means that I realize that some of my ideas, and opinions differ from the type of people who are welcomed into the organization.
However, to say that Dr. LaVey would have felt the same way, is presumptuous on your part. If he had known me in person, he could have gone either way. Neither one of us knows for sure. As with everyone else, there is much more to who I am, then what may come across on a message board. People can have theories about the people that post here, but a theory is only an educated guess, and there is a lot more guessing then education involved when it comes to someone believing that they know someone well enough to judge them from a few posts. Anyone is entitled to their own opinions about another person. However, that opinion is only that, an opinion and a belief, but not necessarily a reality.

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#188752 - 09/22/06 11:26 AM Re: not "worthy" [Re: Asmedious]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

If you read back several posts you will see that I was the one who originally said that "I am not worthy" when asked why I did not join. This means that I realize that some of my ideas, and opinions differ from the type of people who are welcomed into the organization.





Then we are in total agreement.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#188753 - 09/22/06 11:58 AM Re: not "worthy" [Re: Asmedious]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
They have been covered in previous posts by myself and others, and as with most things that are based on individual beliefs, not everyone shares the same views. I find this to be a positive thing, because if everyone agreed on everything, this would be a boring world.

Indeed, it would be boring. Not to mention, groups of people who completely and totally agree with each other occasionally collapse under the weight of their own hubris.

HOWEVER, when no one can agree on anything, there is chaos. Chaos doesn't make for a very good structure for a group, church, or ideology, because it's devoid of structure. If everyone thought differently on each and every single issue, there would be no Church of Satan, and no Satanism, because there'd be no way to truly identify them in contrast to everything else.

I suppose you can liken it to cooking. If Satanism is Joy Luck Dragon Phoenix, then, obviously, there's a certain form and format you have to follow in order to end up with that dish, instead of, say, toss salad, or grits, or tacos. But, there's room for improvisation in the little details. Even though bean paste is required, you may add a little more than another person. You might add a pinch of pepper, for extra zest, or substitute pork for beef. But, if you do not adhere closely to the recipe in certain ways (like keeping it at a certain temperature, adding specific ingredients at a certain time, avoiding ingredients that will make it taste "off"), and if you fail to follow the general format, you will not end up with Joy Luck Dragon Phoenix.

Hence, one of the things that I take issue with, is that many Satanists quote his work the same way that people of other belief systems quote their respective doctrines.
I believe that what may have been true when those ideas were put on paper, might not be so as time goes on, and that the only people qualified to say how they would feel about current events, is the people who wrote the original doctrines.


But, we no longer have the man who wrote the original doctrines. We can no longer benefit from his continued wisdom or insight.

You're absolutely right that opinions do sometimes change. People change. I can find many ways in which the Satanic Bible differs in tone and style from Satan Speaks!, for example. But, it is my opinion that the fundamental ideas of the Satanic Bible are bedrock, and that those ideas are common to all of LaVey's works, and, indeed, are common to the writings produced by other Satanists I admire and trust. And, Satanists throughout time and from around the globe agree that these fundamental ideas still make sense and still work, though applications may be subject to change.

Of course, there will always be debate, disagreement, and diversity. Sam will be more misanthropic than Joe. Sally will vote Libertarian, while Debbie will vote Democratic, and Bobby will identify as a fascist. But, despite that, there are still common ideas that unite all Satanists, and make up the bedrock of Satanism.

No organization can do that for a person, because everyone grows at different speeds, and in some extent, in different directions.

Which is why you must be responsible for your own growth and progress. The Church of Satan cannot do it for you, and probably doesn't want to, because that's what white light religions do. You are absolutely correct that the "nuts and bolts" sometimes need to be tinkered with, and I believe that Satanism and the CoS allows for that where it's needed, though it may not tell you how or why you need to fix your own nuts and bolts.

For me to join any group, and to pledge my self to follow and abide by all of their rules and ideas, would make me feel as if I was giving my independence and free thought over to someone else, and the older that I get, the more difficult such an alliance is.

Your spirit is admirable--no sane, proud person wants to surrender over their independence and free will---but I think you're being a bit too paranoid.

Joining the CoS is not like joining a neighborhood church, or a political party that meets every Tuesday. I've certainly dabbled in churches and organizations for fun that demanded a lot more attendance, allegiance, and towing the line than the CoS does. Some CoS members never make contact with other Satanists, or even the organization itself! You don't have to show up to meetings or reveal your affiliation or die for a cause, so your role as a member can largely be whatever you wish it to be.

And yes, being a member of the CoS does require that you adhere to a few extra agreements, and dilligently adhere to the usual ones, if you want to remain a member. For example, as a CoS member, you don't just get to waltz onto the Montel show and spout off; this is why we have agents. You don't get to dabble in other "satanic" organizations, either, nor do you get to molest children, sacrifice animals, or commit crimes. But, I'd tend to think these are pretty fair requirements that smart people should typically want to respect anyway, whether they're a CoS member or not.

But, it's your decision, of course, and your money as well. Certainly, nothing in my life changes whether your name is blue or yellow here. No one is forced or obligated to join, and some Satanists never do. Just be sure the decision is yours, and that you've based it on reasoned, accurate information and reasons. If you find you disagree with some core tenets, for example, then it makes absolutely perfect sense to not join.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#188754 - 09/22/06 12:21 PM Re: not "worthy" [Re: TrojZyr]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Those who accuse the Church of Satan of being "regimented" are either completely blind to the diversity of people involved and their projects, or they are pushing an agenda, or both.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#188755 - 09/22/06 12:40 PM Re: not "worthy" [Re: Svengali]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
We're in agreement there, I would say.

One just needs to observe, meet, and/or talk to Satanists in order to understand how diverse and independent all of the the personalities and the lifestyles are. This posting board only reveals a hint of the larger diversity that exists.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#188756 - 09/22/06 01:05 PM Re: not "worthy" [Re: TrojZyr]
Asmedious Offline


Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 617
You are absolutely right.

I also preceive the attitude here that "If you are not with us, you are against us."
It might be worth considering, that an affiliation goes both ways. When people find out that one is a member of an organization, they often wrongly assume, that, that persons views and actions are also the views and actions supported by the organization that they have joined.
If anyone found out that I was a member of the CoS for example, anything that I may say, would be taken as CoS doctrine. To most people the fact that the CoS does not allow itself to be represented unless one is given specific premission, does not matter to most people. Imagine if one day, I have a few too many drinks (though I very rarely drink) and decide to go sky diving in the nude, and my parachute doesn't open. Eventually someone will likely find a litte red card that states "CoS Member."
What would make a better headline? "Idiot drunk falls nude out of sky" or "God punishes Church of Satan member for sinful life"? Yes this is a far out example, but perhaps you get my point.
Chosing to not affilate with an organization is not always a sign of disrespect, it might actually be a sign of great respect by the desire to protect its integrity, and not chance tarnishing it.

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#188757 - 09/22/06 01:08 PM Re: not "worthy" [Re: TrojZyr]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:

HOWEVER, when no one can agree on anything, there is chaos. Chaos doesn't make for a very good structure for a group, church, or ideology, because it's devoid of structure. If everyone thought differently on each and every single issue, there would be no Church of Satan, and no Satanism, because there'd be no way to truly identify them in contrast to everything else.




Wise observation and something that I have never seen put so concisely. It is lesson I agree with and a lesson which would serve me well to put into practice more often.

At times my questioning nature is a bit too bold.


Edited by Drimlybunk (09/22/06 07:15 PM)
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#188758 - 09/22/06 01:54 PM Re: not "worthy" [Re: Asmedious]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:

I also preceive the attitude here that "If you are not with us, you are against us."




Bullshit.

The Church of Satan is quite clear on its policy that membership is not mandatory for Satanists, that someone can be a Satanist without joining the Church.

We also have categories for "de facto" Satanists (ie., Satanists in all but name) and "fellow travellers" (ie., those who are in substantial agreement with the basic world view of Satanism, but are disinclined to the aesthetic).

But there are good reasons for not joining, and then there are bad reasons.

And there are "fellow travellers", and then there are parasites who try to pass themselves off as the "real deal" and who slander the Church of Satan. If you're with THEM, you're against us.

Can you tell the difference?
_________________________
reprobate

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#188759 - 09/22/06 02:37 PM Re: not "worthy" [Re: Asmedious]
zouzoumamoux Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 119
Loc: The Infernal Empire
Quote:


Chosing to not affilate with an organization is not always a sign of disrespect, it might actually be a sign of great respect by the desire to protect its integrity, and not chance tarnishing it.




This one interested me!!!...one must dare to succeed and take the heat when one fails...if you are by lottery appointed Satanic pope and make a mess...well, that would not happen anyways...so, what's this about tarnishing...DO you wish to stand on a soap box and yell "Hail Satan"???

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#188760 - 09/22/06 03:30 PM Re: not "worthy" [Re: Asmedious]
Neko Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 798
Quote:

Chosing to not affilate with an organization is not always a sign of disrespect, it might actually be a sign of great respect by the desire to protect its integrity, and not chance tarnishing it.




So, your plainly admitting that you lack integrity and are scum that would tarnish the COS. Well, I won't argue with you there.

But then seriously, why are you here? Your posts reek of attempted shit disturbance.
_________________________
I am a Vampire.

The Temple | The Elite

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#188761 - 09/22/06 03:45 PM Re: Satan Speaks [Re: Asmedious]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
The answer is simple:

There are countless people that read The Satanic Bible and identify with the beliefs, philosophies, and principles outlined within it. They declare themselves Satanists and live their lives as such, without need for affiliation or interaction with others of their ilk.

Then, there are those who claim to "not want to affiliate," but yet seek to interact in someway with other Satanists. These people seem to want to obtain the benefits of membership without actually becoming a member. They wish to affiliate without affiliating. They hang around and "feed" off of the members of the church, and by proxy, the church itself. Then, when someone has the audacity to question them about their lack of afilliation, they usually spew some garbage about "not wanting to conform," or " I'm not a fan of the current CoS administration," or, "I don't think I can my beliefs or thoughts can be pigeonholed into one particular group," and they always pull out the quote from Dr. LaVey about not having to join the Church of Satan to consider yourself a Satanist. When all the while they've been trying to weasel their way into someone's inner circle, and trying to take the Devil's name without playing the Devil's game. These are the parasites that Dr. LaVey refers to, and there's no place for them here.
_________________________
Hail the Citizens of the Infernal Empire!
Hail Satan!
Magister David Harris
Host - Hate Speech Radio
http://www.hatespeechradio.com

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#188762 - 09/22/06 04:03 PM Re: Satan Speaks [Re: Asmedious]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:

You have all given me quite a large plate of food for thought. It will take time to try to digest it all.




Don't try to eat it all at once, you might choke!
_________________________









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#188763 - 09/22/06 04:19 PM Re: not "worthy" [Re: Asmedious]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
I think it's a really interesting phenomenon this behavior of yours.
It's an irrational fear of affiliation… but you keep trying to rationalize it. Perhaps because you are afraid of ""submitting"" to being apart of a group…? Although it's a group of individuals, and not a community- and you probably know that by now.
It's just a childish fear of realizing you are not the only one who has such thoughts about certain things, therefore you can be categorized. Deprogram yourself from thinking affiliation is necessarily bad…
Having a strong need of reformation can be very good---- if you know how to use it wisely. And that’s everything really- using your natural dispositions wisely.
I have a disposition to reform (or just rebel) but upon understanding that disposition, I learned to utilize it for my best interests.
It's like a wild horse you have to learn to tame- otherwise you're going to hurt yourself, or find yourself galloping the wrong direction.
You might have an irrational fear of being bound to something… although, when you think of it, you don't have a choice really…. You are bound to be who you are, who you were born to be.
I you mistrust yourself so much to stick to who you really are- this is something you should seriously work on, for your own sake.
But well, your life is yours to do whatever you wish and see fit with it.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#188764 - 09/22/06 04:28 PM Re: Satan Speaks [Re: Unknown]
Asmedious Offline


Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 617
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have all given me quite a large plate of food for thought. It will take time to try to digest it all.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Don't try to eat it all at once, you might choke!





Indeed, and if I do, at this point, I don't think anyone would Himlich me

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