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#192436 - 10/06/06 11:43 AM Are we talking just words ???
Yinta Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 128
Loc: Netherlands
A word is made out of letters so till here it is for all the same.
But what makes a word?

It is the definition one gives to the word and here begins the trouble.
In communication we have a sender and a receiver. If both donít give the same definition to a word, communication becomes impossible.

People who donít have an open view, canít bare the fact that they give a wrong definition to a word. Even if they canít show any proof of affiliation to the definition of the word.

One doesnít use than the word but begins to abuse it.
Question is why?

Personally I think to impress others:
Look me, Iím a great person;
I know what is important;
Fear me because...
And so an.

One doesnít impress others just by using, or in this case, abusing a word.

The ego isnít fed through words but by deeds.
The ego isnít fed by others who just say you have accomplished great things (just words again) but by accomplishing the goals you make in your own life.

One should live and enjoy his life and shouldnít be hold back by false standards.

Because we live in different parts of the world and in different societies and have different interests, we live different lives and have different goals. But we all have one thing in common; we want to live our life to the fullest!
Because my life is the most valuable thing I possess.

You probably have only one life, so make it worth living!
_________________________
sincerely ,


Yinta

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#192437 - 10/06/06 12:16 PM Re: Are we talking just words ??? [Re: Yinta]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Quote:

One doesn’t use than the word but begins to abuse it.
Question is why?

Personally I think to impress others:
Look me, I’m a great person;
I know what is important;
Fear me because...
And so an.

One doesn’t impress others just by using, or in this case, abusing a word.




This makes sense to me, and I would like to explain. Just last night I visited christiandeath.com, when the site loads a warning page came up first. One of the accusations against Christian Death is a word 'aphierotica,' I had no idea what this word meant so I started researching it, only to be led back to the same site. Confused, I contacted a friend here at LttD who is very familiar with Christian Death, and he explained that it is more than likely used for publicity and what not. (Thanks Again!)
Overall, I call it Pretentiousness!
_________________________
ÔŅĹLove is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.ÔŅĹ
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#192438 - 10/06/06 08:35 PM Re: Are we talking just words ??? [Re: Yinta]
Mozric Offline


Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 7
Words are great things... they can be used well or badly, they can be used to clarify or to confuse.
I agree that deeds are what make you. "Actions speak louder than words"?
For the individual, little is worse than being "just talk".

I for one have to be careful that my deeds back up my words. Thanks for the post.

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#192439 - 10/07/06 12:17 AM Re: Are we talking just words ??? [Re: Mozric]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:


Words are great things... they can be used well or badly,




Poorly.


"Words are great things... they can be used well or poorly,"

Or even better:

"Words are great things. They can be used well or they can be used poorly."

I usually don't do this but I figured it is the topic of the thread.


Edited by Drimlybunk (10/07/06 12:51 AM)
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#192440 - 10/07/06 12:39 AM Re: Are we talking just words ??? [Re: Yinta]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
I feel that your intention is a tad jumbled but I take it that your first language is not english. Please explain if I am reading what you did not mean to write -- it is understandable for someone new to the language.

As I read this I feel that you are discussing:


1.) That words get their power from their meaning and the symbols themselves are useless.

I agree - though it seems elementary.

2.) People who use words incorrectly should be shunned because when they do it creates confusion as they falsely insist on their diction's connotations and definitions.

This is true but more humorous than annoying. I find it nearly inexcusable in written language because of the availability of dictionaries. Personally, I've run into few people that will stick to their guns over one word.

If you are speaking in a broader context such as legal wording or religious scripture I can see where you're coming from. There is an adjective for these types of debates: "semantics." Quite often when it comes down to an ill-worded phrase there is little that can be done without contextual information. And then the conversation is more about historical implication than actually definitions of words.

As for at least one religion:
The bible was written to confuse. No surprise that it does.

3.) You propose that people use a large vocabulary in order to boost their own image.

People who do it poorly are of no threat to me.

People who do it well have the upper hand. There is a reason we have specific words with specific intention and "dumbing - down" my language just because it makes me appear arrogant is silly.

I understand your point that complicated vocabulary alone will not improve the message but being able to use precise words (though they may have more syllables) will lend the advantage to the wordsmith.

4.) Actions are stronger representations of our intentions than could be made with words.

Definately true although talk is not as always cheap. With a proven track record a person's word can be as good as any of their visable actions.

I also suggest that we interpret our world through words and in doing so lend them a great deal of power -- I would love to hear a linguists elaboration on this.

5.)
Quote:

You probably have only one life, so make it worth living!




Here's a good example.

"Probably?!"

What have you seen that leads you to believe anything to the contrary?


Edited by Drimlybunk (10/07/06 12:49 AM)
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#192441 - 10/07/06 02:03 AM Re: Are we talking just words ??? [Re: Drimlybunk]
Mozric Offline


Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 7
I can't blame you, considering the topic.

Normally there's nothing wrong with my prose. I shall have to be on the look out for my slip ups -- I was lucky I didn't kill anyone that time.

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#192442 - 10/07/06 02:20 AM Re: Are we talking just words ??? [Re: Yinta]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12497
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I certainly hope so.

No words. No talking!

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#192443 - 10/07/06 02:53 AM There is more to communication than what escapes the mouth. [Re: Drimlybunk]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1019

Reading this thread reminds me of my essay I wrote a short while ago, "'To Speak' is an Opportunity to Fascinate". I cannot resist to comment.

In that essay, I tried to convey as a key point that any of you, being the person intent on communicating a thought, assume most of the burden of that communication. Part of that burden is knowing your audience... of having at least a basic idea of your audience's vocabulary, to be more specific. There are no concrete rules to knowing your audience of which I am aware, but I have always let common sense dictate. Barring exceptionally well-spoken third-graders, I would venture to say most of third-graders do not know the word "juxtaposition". To be honest, I did not even really know what the word meant until I just read its definition. I only knew it had "something to do with the position of things". Even though I now know its meaning, I would still be more apt to say "those two things are very close together" rather than "those two things are in juxtaposition", if the latter is even correct. Even if I were talking to someone whom I believed to be very well-spoken and to know words like "juxtaposition", the chance that he or she may not would prevent me from using it. Having to explain its definition would detract from what I was intent on communicating in the first place, and that is definitely not keeping my audience in mind.

Word-a-Day Calendars are bad because they can wind up in the posession of people that would do something like use the word "juxtaposition" in a conversation that does not lend itself to using such words. At best, people make fools of themselves when they blatantly misuse words around people that understand them. Unfortunately, they may promote other, equally ignorant people to misuse them, too. When enough people misuse a word, its misuse becomes the norm. The only example of this that comes to my mind is the frequent misue of the word "caveat" as a verb in my work. It irks me to no end when Commissioned Officers say "I'd like to caveat that remark..." Equally problematic is the use of words that actually are not words, but because of their widespread circulation over a popluation, become words. The word "irregardless" is a great example of this phenomenon, and I see many people point out that it is not a word when in fact it sadly is a word.

By all means, develop your vocabulary, but keep it balanced. More often than not, you can sound "smarter" by using better grammar than you can by dropping fancy words. Say "To whom are you speaking?" instead of saying "Who are you talking to?". That is not a very inspiring example, but it serves to show that ordering the words properly has a much better effect that sprinkling fancy words into the mix. There are other ways to "sound better" without overusing big words. Speak in the active voice as much as you can, since it is most often appropriate. "David wrote this post." is written in the active voice. "This post is written by David" is written in the passive voice. The passive voice is often cosidered poor style because it overuses the "be" verbs, but it has its uses, too. A business's management will often use it to convey bad news or unfavorable policy to its employees: "Junior Sales Associates are forbidden from using the upstairs break room." That helps remove attention from the policy-maker than "The VP Marketing has forbidden Junior Sales Associates from using the upstairs break room." You can also improve your vocabulary by avoiding contractions. They sound stupid, and you will not save much time using them in place of the two words you could have used. They are the grammatic equivalent of peanut butter and jelly in the same jar.

The most important thing to consider before you say anything is what you are going to say. In other words, think before you speak. Even stupid people sound smarter than usual when they do that.

_________________________

Refuse to die.

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#192444 - 10/07/06 03:26 AM Re: There is more to communication than what escapes the mouth. [Re: TheAbysmal]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
I would like to elaborate on the defintion of your example. Which really only serves to drive many of the points made here home.

Juxtaposition : 1. an act or instance of placing close together or side by side, esp. for comparison or contrast.

There was a girl in my class with whom I had a relationship that was a juxtaposition. Our daily physical proximity accentuated the fact that were indeed nearly opposites in every way.

It is also important to note that juxtaposition is a noun, which makes the grammar of that sentence a bit cumbersome.

Two items next to each other would not generally be refered to as a juxtaposition unless there was some comparison to be made, commonly a drastic and obvious contrast.



I think that lowering my standards of speech upon first communication is a mistake. If children heard the people around them speaking more intelligently they would catch on quickly. There is nothing physical holding them back from learning to speak like an adult other than the adults around them that expect any less. I would gladly explain myself in simpler terms if I were asked but I would not assume a low standard from the onset of our interaction. The same goes for adults in all walks of life.

The only time where I would make the vocabulary simpler and less accurate would be in the position of "salesman". If the customer wants me to treat them like they would not understand "big words" I will.

Your point is not lost on me however. Being able to communicate on all levels is certainly advantageous. The story of highly technical people not being able to explain their ideas to the less educated manufacturers is common.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#192445 - 10/07/06 04:05 AM Re: Words or Actions [Re: Drimlybunk]
Yinta Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 128
Loc: Netherlands
The risk in interpreting the world with only words is that you often don't know, at that moment, if the words are true. So your world could be a lie. People often use words to veil their real intentions. They want you to interpret things in a certain way, so they have most bennefit of it.
I think it is safer to do by ones actions and not just their words.

Like Magister Nemo red in his essay: "Recognizing Pseudo-Satanism"
quote:
"They will use many of the same words..."

But their intentions are differend. They don't backup the words with the right actions. So it are just meaningless words.

Those people have used Magister Nemo for 3 years and have put him in great danger.
(thank you Magister for sharing, so we can learn from it)
To give an example of how dangerous words can be.

My personal conclusion from this is to judge people on their actions and not onley the words they use. Time will tell if the words are true or false. As soon as I have determine this, then I come into action and not earlier.

5)
To your question of the word probably.

Well I don't know. I have no proof for what comes after dead. So I keep an open-mind.
To be honest, I don't really care. I wouldn`t have lived or will live my life different if I would have that knowledge.
Only thing that matters is that I live now.


Edited by Yinta (10/07/06 04:10 AM)
_________________________
sincerely ,


Yinta

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#192446 - 10/08/06 01:52 AM Re: Words or Actions [Re: Yinta]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1019

I share your reservation in interpretting the world with words alone. People often do pervert them toward their own means with little regard to what damage they can do their commonly held meaning or the people to which they speak them.

Consider a personal example of mine: As a very young child, my father struggled financially to provide for our family. Despite this struggle, he somehow managed to treat us out to "fancy" restaurants, fancy being relative to what he could then typically afford. It was from these occasions that I developed my definition of cuisine, food that is notable for exceptional quality. It was not until I really began to look at the world around me with greater scrutiny that noticed many restaurants served food of equivalent or poorer quality to what we typically ate, but advertised it as cuisine. A look at the previous link will show by definition, or denotation, every restaurant serves cuisine. This is a perversion of the word cuisine that I see countless Chinese take-out restaurants use, among other guilty ones. The word cuisine carries with it a connotation that you will be dining on finer food, and by that virtue, they hope to get you through their doors. (Perhaps this is a gross generalization on my part, but I think not. That would mean many restaurants are in the business of stating the obvious: "Hello. We are a restaurant. We also serve food.")

To offer yet another personal example, though one I am sure potentially many Satanists have experienced, consider the words Satanic, Satanism, and Satanist. For many years, the very mention of these words did not conjure up for me images of free thinkers, famous tap dancers, or a natural and self-serving religion; rather, they evoked fear in me and wrought images of ritualistic killings, cow masacres, and similar ilk... all thanks to people with ulterior motives in mind.

Nothwithstanding Chinese take-out restaurants abuse words, there is no one who perverts more toward their own motives than a sycophant. I do not yet know Magister Nemo--I have only read a few of his postings--or his dealings of which you speak, from what I have gathered in your post, he dealt with sycophants. (From his postings that I have read, he may even deal with them here, but that is purely my conjecture.) Sycophants are likely to abuse words in the manner you mention because flattery almost requires the use of many adjectives, adverbs, and superlatives. These devices lend themselves to easy abuse, though any words with several or contrasting definitions or connoations can, too.

Still, words must carry with them some inherent meaning, whether that meaning is defined or just implicitly understood, or they would not be barometers to which you could measure their speakers' deeds. If I never made my association of fine food to cuisine, instead opting to associate it to just food, I would have less to differentiate. I would still eat at the Mandarine House instead of eating at Jan Ann's China Express, I just would not be able to articulate the difference in terms of cuisine. Because I do interpret the word and the world of cuisine based on that face value, fine food, I can easily see the establishments that offer it and the ones that just say they do. That gives me the leverage I need to warn people that Jan Ann's is slop, not cuisine.


For the sake of completeness, and because I have piqued my own curiosity, how many of you readers share my definition of cuisine as fine food, or think of it as simply the range of food a restaurant serves?

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Refuse to die.

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