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#192886 - 10/09/06 06:59 AM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: Evil_Eve]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Religion, at its best, gives us answers to life's questions.

Quote:

Indeed Priestess. It was not my child's funeral you are correct. It does however pain me to have been to one of these funerals and then to see one headlined on CNN with the whole 'awww look at these poor poor wounded people with forgiveness and love in their hearts'. This bothers me. The act it's self bothers me.

Is it enough to jeopardize/interfere with me? Not really. Does it hurt me? As a mother who lost her only child watches people attend the funeral of children who were shot execution style toting 'forgiveness' with them, then my answer would be yes, yes it does slightly sting.

Good insight however. No, My life is not jeopardized or interfered with as a result of what has happened in PA.




Our religion reminds us:

Do not complain about that which you willingly subject yourself to.


Walk away from the TV---sometimes you just have to. I'm anews junkie, and often have to remind myself that I don't have to endure--just turn it off.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#192887 - 10/09/06 07:07 AM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: Ygraine]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Religion, at its best, gives us answers to life's questions.

Quote:

Indeed Priestess. It was not my child's funeral you are correct. It does however pain me to have been to one of these funerals and then to see one headlined on CNN with the whole 'awww look at these poor poor wounded people with forgiveness and love in their hearts'. This bothers me. The act it's self bothers me.

Is it enough to jeopardize/interfere with me? Not really. Does it hurt me? As a mother who lost her only child watches people attend the funeral of children who were shot execution style toting 'forgiveness' with them, then my answer would be yes, yes it does slightly sting.

Good insight however. No, My life is not jeopardized or interfered with as a result of what has happened in PA.




Our religion reminds us:

Do not complain about that which you willingly subject yourself to.


Walk away from the TV---sometimes you just have to. I'm anews junkie, and often have to remind myself that I don't have to endure--just turn it off.

Y~




Once again sound advice from you Priestess. I appreciate your insight as well as everyone else who has contributed to this thread (minus one certain individual mind you)

Incidentally, I killed my Television last night.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192888 - 10/09/06 12:27 PM Total Environment, Total Life. [Re: Ygraine]
LightSnake Offline


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 49
Quote:

[...]I am shocked that so many of the posters on this thread don't admire the fact that the Amish have done precisely what we want! They have created a complete total environment replete with a shared philosophy and aesthetic.




I've been a bit more intrigued with some other aspects that an anthropologist brought to light, after living in a Pennsylvania Amish community for a year. The sense of the flow of time, and it's useage in their life seemed, perhaps, very unique and enviable.

The anthoplogist, (whose name I unfortunately can't recall at the moment) noted that:

--They literally work from sunup to sundown, from the first waking moment to the last.
--Yet, they are never in a hurry at all. The work is at a terribly leasurely pace, with plently of time and ease to talk with each other about anything while doing it.
--They seem to be doing it all as exactly what they want to be doing with their time. The anthropologist was talking with the women about how difficult it can be when your work doesn't match up with the hobbies/activities you have in one's precious free-hours; she often feels that way herself. The ladies said, yes, that is an awful feeling, but fortunately we don't have that much, in our way of getting on...

So imagine...
What do you do? --I work on my Total Environment.
What do you do evenings? --I work on my Total Environment.
What do you do for fun? --I work on my Total Environment.

--LightSnake
_________________________
PARADISE NOW!

--Camille Paglia

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#192889 - 10/09/06 12:48 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Ygraine]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
>> In no way do the Amish qualify as a cult. They are not a first generation religion where members have literal contact with a charismatic founder (ie. the Branch Davidians, or Jim Jones.) They do not proselytize. They do not tithe, other than community projects. Furthermore the minute you call someone a "cultist" you are excusing their personal behaviour, and laying blame on thought rather than deed. <<

It is still a religious cult that holds its members in unnatural shackles. And unfortunately for their children they do proselytize. It is in fact amongst the worst religious cults that are guilty of child abuse of the worst kind, subjecting them to severe mental cruelty.

Surley a Total Environment from a Satanic perspective is one that is created by an individual for the purpose of providing personally agreeable surroundings.

The Amish community is created around outdated old testament biblical stipulations.

They deny all fleshly pleasures and even laughter is seen as a wordly sin.

They don't need physical contact with a charismatic leader. That is not at all the basis on which we can define a cult. Just like any branch of Christianity they believe their leader exists (Jesus).

And actually each of their communities have "elders" who rule with a "rod of iron" from laws drawn from their interpretation of Christian discipline.

Nah, this is one of the cruelist dictatoral cults in the world.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#192890 - 10/09/06 12:56 PM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: Evil_Eve]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Just to clarify, what Lingua and I were talking about differs from what we're discussing here. Lingua, some other folks, and I got to hear some Mennonites sing on Hollywood Boulevard this summer as we were just toodling along. It was an inside joke.

This funeral case deals with the Amish, so you were correct before.

Sorry to be confusing.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192891 - 10/09/06 01:09 PM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
JSBlack Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 11/27/05
Posts: 594
Loc: South Wales
If anyone hurt someone I loved then I'd NEVER forgive them. Forgiveness is a cop-out for those who are too weak to fight or just can't be bothered with the fuss of it all.

I'd dig his body up and pay some 'respect' of my own, I'd definitely want his head… or what’s left of it.

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#192892 - 10/09/06 03:01 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Quote:

It is still a religious cult that holds its members in unnatural shackles. And unfortunately for their children they do proselytize. It is in fact amongst the worst religious cults that are guilty of child abuse of the worst kind, subjecting them to severe mental cruelty.





I disagree.

It is a religion. A Spritual Religion. I may believe that ALL spiritual religions are detrimental, irresponsible, and chock full of the mentally infirm, but the term "cult", used in that sort of National Enquirer way, is neither scientific or sociological. To paraphrase: A cult is a religion we don't like.

Please document the severe mental child abuse of which you write.

Please don't try to sell the "they teach dependence on God and that is severe mental child abuse" notion. Every parent is both guilty of and responsible for teaching their children what they view to be correct. Plenty of children are force fed every kind of horseshit and opt for a more rational approach upon reaching adulthood. That is nature. We of all people know that those who don't get it, can't--regardless of upbringing.

Quote:

Surley a Total Environment from a Satanic perspective is one that is created by an individual for the purpose of providing personally agreeable surroundings.

The Amish community is created around outdated old testament biblical stipulations.





Yes, our version of a total environment is as you say, but they have created theirs. I was hardly suggesting a Satanic commune. I was saying that doing things your own way, and minding your own business are attributes not often displayed by traditonal religions.

Quote:

The Amish community is created around outdated old testament biblical stipulations.

They deny all fleshly pleasures and even laughter is seen as a wordly sin.





Their choice.
Why do you care...is there an Amish chick you want to fuck?
I've seen far too many laughing Amish kids to buy that.

Quote:

They don't need physical contact with a charismatic leader. That is not at all the basis on which we can define a cult. Just like any branch of Christianity they believe their leader exists (Jesus).





They do if you want to use the word cult in an academic fashion. If you wish to use it strictly as a derogatory I suppose, again, it can be defined as anything we don't like.

Quote:

And actually each of their communities have "elders" who rule with a "rod of iron" from laws drawn from their interpretation of Christian discipline.

Nah, this is one of the cruelist dictatoral cults in the world.




And here in the Colonies we figure once someone is an adult they can get up and leave. Unless we suddenly support the victim mentality and excuse adult behaviour based on how one was reared (which sets a precedence where no one is responsible for any-fucking-thing), we should mind our own business.

Now, I am pretty unclear as how I've become an apologist for the Amish. Maybe spending a good deal of time with Quakers and some Amish has made me aware of how utterly unoffensive they are. Do I think they are sick? Sure! But I think anyone who worships a God at all is sick. I'd be lost without a straightening iron and a cell phone, so I sure don't get the Luddite thing.....but, I see people fuck with people all day long. I watch fundamentalism in all forms reaching out beyond their cultural barriers causing no end of shit.

The people who remove themselves and refuse to play the game get my vote for best possible neighbors.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#192893 - 10/09/06 03:14 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Ygraine]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
Well, I have no desire to try and change your mind.

I define Christianity as a cult full stop.

But you can view it as you choose also.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#192894 - 10/09/06 03:27 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
JSBlack Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 11/27/05
Posts: 594
Loc: South Wales
Quote:

Well, I define Christianity as a cult full stop.




I think the 'L' in cult should be substituted with a 'N' and then we're getting somewhere close.

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#192895 - 10/09/06 03:35 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: JSBlack]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
Christianity under new title?
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us – all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

We're Just Regular People

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#192896 - 10/09/06 05:52 PM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Chess]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Thanks for the link. That was a very interesting read.

I was another one under the mistaken impresion that the Amish just rejected everything modern. Now I see they have some set of rules and would acept some technology as long as it will not conflict with their way of life.

They still look like loonies to me, but now I see there is some system in their madness.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#192897 - 10/09/06 06:07 PM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
I find it ridiculous too. But of course, it fits the Amish character perfectly.

They preach unconditional forgiveness and they are showing it by assisting to the funeral of the killer. They are acting according with their beliefs. Doing otherwise would make them hypocrites.

Personally, I would never forgive such a person. But then again, I don’t believe in forgiveness.

No, my question is… What is really going on in the mind of those who lost a child to that maniac? Is their forgiveness real or just acted? Deep inside the mind of one of those parents, is there a little flame of hatred, even when he externally won’t show it. Is he thinking “Why God did this to us?” as he walks to the funeral?

It’s very hard to me to put myself in the shoes of an Amish person, since their entire culture is alien to me. They are basically people who still live in the 17 century. They have lived for generations in that way and they are educated like that since birth.

But perhaps even such an upbringing cannot completely kill the little beast that lives inside every man.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#192898 - 10/09/06 07:49 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
redheadgrl Offline


Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 273
I wouldn't go so far as to call the Amish a cult but I know that they make it extremely difficult to leave the faith-I think of it as the entanglement theory, to borrow and distort the definition from quantum. A bunch of seemingly random elements at first glance which upon further investigation add up to entanglement.

If you are 16, with what amounts to a fourth grade education-what options do you have? Everyone you know is Amish, your entire support system is Amish and your education is very limited so branching out on your own is nearly impossible.

The entanglement theory is weaved in advertising and religions and is notoriously successful.

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#192899 - 10/09/06 08:14 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: redheadgrl]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

I wouldn't go so far as to call the Amish a cult but I know that they make it extremely difficult to leave the faith-I think of it as the entanglement theory, to borrow and distort the definition from quantum. A bunch of seemingly random elements at first glance which upon further investigation add up to entanglement.

If you are 16, with what amounts to a fourth grade education-what options do you have? Everyone you know is Amish, your entire support system is Amish and your education is very limited so branching out on your own is nearly impossible.

The entanglement theory is weaved in advertising and religions and is notoriously successful.




You bring up one very good point and this point being:

Yes, where does a teenager run to when he/she has been raised in a very controlled enviornment? What skills aside from farming, quilting or pie baking will help them become productive citizens outside of their controlled community?

I never really thought about this to great extent, but you are correct. I am reminded of the corny movie 'King Pin' and how out of place the Amish man was outside of those walls that had controlled and seemingly enslaved him.

In this such movie, he had someone (all be it Woody Harrelson) to protect him and watch out over him in this strange new world he was discovering.

What about that teenager who just doesn't feel things are right and wants to leave? WHERE does that teenager go? Certainly he/she won't have much money if any to speak of and I feel that it would be a very hard thing for them to overcome (living in our world) after being subjected to the life they have always lived seperate from ours.

Here is something that gets a bit under my skin:'


If you want to be seperate? Fine. So be it. Light your lantern, plow the field, churn the butter etc. etc. etc. BUT ARE YOU SEPERATE from our world?

Do they not sell us their wares? Granted, we don't have to buy them but nonetheless they do sell them on the roadside and even in their own shops that they open up to the 'evil outside sinners' who are going to hell.

Honestly, where is the logic here? They were raised in such a community and we in ours. So...... we go to hell because we weren't 'fortunate' enough to be born and raised within their walls?

No logic whatsover.

I haven't looked into it, but I do so wonder that if I were so inclined to join their quiet community (would I be welcomed with open arms)? Would every Jebbadiaha, Micah and John help me raise a barn? Would the woman folk cook me a feast? Most likely not.

Now, the argument will come up that even we the Satanist will not welcome just anyone into our community but we are a different breed. We have not seperated ourselves from society, it is close minded people in our society that seperate themselves as from us as far as they can get. (UNLESS that is, to turn a quick buck ie. the religious churches in our society who would go BROKE if not for their scapegoat 'Satan'.)

Good for them. I don't need them to define me with their acceptance in any way shape or form. The further they are away from me the better.

Back to my original point after all my rambling is that when do you call them the Amish seperate from us when they do and are making money from us? It's almost like the whole seperation of church and state (which I FULLY support). If you want to be seperate then fine! Seperate yourself. Don't try to make a fast buck with one of your Cherry Turnovers and call yourself self sufficient and seperate.

I do feel for those kids.

I read an article where an Amish boy was being punished for 'skate boarding' this was forbidden in his particular sect as it was seen as a secular activity.

He even went so far as to paint on the side of a barn these words:

"Skate Or Die Sirs". I commend that! I wonder if he still resides in his peaceful town? Due to finances and the strict overtones of the religion he was raised in, I am sure he is there with a wife named Rachel and 10 children.

Self expression is frowned upon and that to me is abuse. When a little girl cannot own a doll that has a face on it? I think that's a bit extreme and very NOT normal.

In any event, thank you for bringing up that point. Where does one go with a very limited education and almost NO knowledge on how to function in the outside world?

Prisoners who have been in the joint and finally get out after many years end up committing another crime just to get thrown back into prison because they find that they cannot function in our society as they have been seperated from it for too long.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192900 - 10/09/06 08:25 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: redheadgrl]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:

If you are 16, with what amounts to a fourth grade education-what options do you have?




Simply for the sake of clarification and nothing more, the Amish education their children through the eighth grade. Albeit, not adequate for making a go of it alone in an alien society, but still a great deal better than fourth grade.

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