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#192916 - 10/10/06 01:58 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

At least the Amish occupy a straightforward, enclosed, total environment world, and teach their children principles for actually getting along in that environment




Actually they don't. They are NOT enclosed. They have business establisments (I have been to several) and they come into the 'sinners' community to sell their wares.

Could they make it without our money? It's very probable. Do they rely on just themselves financially? NO.

I'm going to have to go to UVRAYS side on this in that they (what they are mentally doing to their children) is a VERY cultish activity.

Someone mentioned that these children could escape and go open a 'pie shop'.

Sure. And with what financial footing would they start this endevour? The 3.00 USD that they have in their pocket?

Let's get serious, the chances of any of these children venturing off on their own and 'making it' in our modern society is not likely. Their elders have made sure of that.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192917 - 10/10/06 02:10 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
The definition of a cult is an extremely interesting one. It depends on
1) who you are asking
2) the geographic location
that means in general that in the United States Catholicism is not considered a cult but in India it would be.
The definition of a cult as I know it is --"a religious group with no political power". The definition changes with geographics, social climate, and the person/people doing the defining.

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#192918 - 10/10/06 02:50 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Evil_Eve]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:

Someone mentioned that these children could escape and go open a 'pie shop'.

Sure. And with what financial footing would they start this endevour? The 3.00 USD that they have in their pocket?




Maybe they could get some advice from Martha Stewart.

I would also like to say, that refusing to patronize a business based solely on my low opinion of their religious inclinations would make shopping very difficult, if not down right impossible. If the pie, quilt, rocking chair, etc. is a quality product, I couldn't care less who made/sells it.


Edited by Tiberia (10/10/06 03:09 PM)

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#192919 - 10/10/06 02:52 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: DickSteele]
DamnedLucky Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/03/06
Posts: 371
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Here's some pretty good criteria:

* Often expresses faith in an all-powerful leader
* Agressive, often dishonest proselytization
* Rigid institutional control over all aspects of a member's existence
* Great enthusiasm of members
* Unique, transformational experiences of members

source: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/religion/blfaq_religion_cultdef.htm

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#192920 - 10/10/06 03:01 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:

At least the Amish occupy a straightforward, enclosed, total environment world, and teach their children principles for actually getting along in that environment.




I absolutely agree with that. And as I said, if any one of the children ultimately decides they want a different life, they are allowed to do so. Of course they must give up their family, friends, and home, but that isn't any more than a lot of Satanists give up when they come out to their families.

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#192921 - 10/10/06 06:14 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
Quote:

Though, I'm much, much angrier at fundamentalist Christians who live in our world, but teach their children backward, asinine lessons and ideas that essentially trap them in a liminal state, a "nowhere land." At least the Amish occupy a straightforward, enclosed, total environment world, and teach their children principles for actually getting along in that environment.





Bingo!
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Hell of All Hells

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#192922 - 10/10/06 06:43 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Quote:

Someone mentioned that these children could escape and go open a 'pie shop'.

Sure. And with what financial footing would they start this endevour? The 3.00 USD that they have in their pocket?




Maybe they could get some advice from Martha Stewart.

I would also like to say, that refusing to patronize a business based solely on my low opinion of their religious inclinations would make shopping very difficult, if not down right impossible. If the pie, quilt, rocking chair, etc. is a quality product, I couldn't care less who made/sells it.




I couldn't agree more. The Amish make damned good furniture as well as baked goods/ cheese/ etc.

Martha Stuart quite frankly scares me to death. She does however do wonders with window treatments.

My husband and I stayed at an Amish Bed and Breakfast in Indiana years ago. It was.... a unique experience. I will buy their goods if they tickle my fancy.

My whole point was that they have no quams with taking 'sinners' money which does not make them self sufficient. They do rely on the help of outsiders ie. money.

They do make one hell of an apple fritter, I'll give them that much.

I actually own several pieces of furniture (including lamps) yes, the Amish make lamps they just don't use them) that I enjoy a great deal.

I have had friends visit my home and I am ammused as I watch their jaws drop to the floor.

I don't have spider webs or black throughout the house but yet that of pastel colors and many Amish items. No one would suspect me of being a Satanist (based on my household decor)

It's good to have secrets isn't it?
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


Top
#192923 - 10/10/06 06:47 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
Quote:

The only tolerable thing I can see is that they don't try to inflict their personal beliefs/values into government policy as the evangelicals and catholics do.




This is also a very important point. They keep it in the family. The way they treat their children may be cultish, but it's not my concern.
_________________________
Hell of All Hells

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#192924 - 10/10/06 11:16 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
And, this is a slightly lame-o argument because I'm comparing apples to oranges, but to some degree, everyone has to figure out how to branch out from their upbringing and family and live in the "real world." Becoming independent is rarely easy or straightforward.

I tend to put Amish in the same category as, say, certain types of indigenous people. Their ways are primitive compared to ours, but they see themselves as preserving crucial traditions and keeping certain social problems and evils at bay, so of course you can predict how they're going to act and how they're going to socialize their kids. And, except in bizarre, unusual cases, they don't seem to out-and-out abuse their children or get them mixed up in strange movements, like Pentecostals and their ilk.

Though, I definitely think the Amish practice of shunning those who choose to leave the community is contemptible and irrational. Not like I can do anything to fix or influence that, though.

The only time I've really been irked at the Amish was when this particular Amish girl got raped by three of her brothers many years ago, and reported it to the police. The community was kinder and more forgiving towards her brothers than her in the end, primarily because she had involved the police, effectively airing the community's dirty laundry to everyone--and it was dirty laundry about S-E-X, to boot. Meanwhile, the boys asked for forgiveness from the deity and the community, and were technically forgiven therefore. That one really got on my nerves, and struck me as being truly unjust.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192925 - 10/10/06 11:22 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

And, this is a slightly lame-o argument because I'm comparing apples to oranges, but to some degree, everyone has to figure out how to branch out from their upbringing and family and live in the "real world." Becoming independent is rarely easy or straightforward.

I tend to put Amish in the same category as, say, certain types of indigenous people. Their ways are primitive compared to ours, but they see themselves as preserving crucial traditions and keeping certain social problems and evils at bay, so of course you can predict how they're going to act and how they're going to socialize their kids. And, except in bizarre, unusual cases, they don't seem to out-and-out abuse their children or get them mixed up in strange movements, like Pentecostals and their ilk.

Though, I definitely think their practice of shunning those who choose to leave the community is contemptible and irrational. Not like I can do anything to fix or influence that, though.

The only time I've really been irked at the Amish was when this particular Amish girl got raped by three of her brothers many years ago, and reported it to the police. The community was kinder and more forgiving towards her brothers than her in the end, primarily because she had involved the police, effectively airing the community's dirty laundry to everyone--and it was dirty laundry about S-E-X, to boot. Meanwhile, the boys asked for forgiveness from the deity and the community, and were technically forgiven therefore. That one really got on my nerves, and struck me as being truly unjust.




Yes, how dare she involve the outside world in this affair? How dare she, even though they can come into OUR world and make money and benefit from us. How dare she call 911.

This bothers me as well.

_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


Top
#192926 - 10/10/06 11:32 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Evil_Eve]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Not only that, but the community didn't do a whole lot to punish the brothers. "Forgive and forget" seemed to be the plan of action there, and to my mind, that just leaves them room to do it again in the future.

The court handed down very light sentences, if I recall---probation, and/or laughably short prison sentences--because they didn't want to disrupt the community. Yeah, like having 3 brothers and possibly their stepfather raping relatives isn't a disruption already.

Now, if you really want to talk cults I hate, look no further than Warren Jeff's Mormon cult in Colorado City, Arizona. (Luckily, the FBI recently nailed Jeffs, so hopefully the cult will fall apart in time.) There's an evil, abusive group of nutters if I ever saw one. Girls as young as 10 can get married off to 50-year-old men, and sometimes learn who they're betrothed to only a day in advance! No movies, no music, no television. Boys and girls are required to dress modestly. Outsiders are bullied and chased out. And, when the sexual competition gets too intense, the community's male elders would occasionally eject male adolescents from the community for minor offenses. Kids who grow up there receive practically no education and practical skills, especially the females, so if they escape or are ostracized, they really have to fight for survival.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy186.html
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192927 - 10/10/06 11:41 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Not only that, but the community didn't do a whole lot to punish the brothers. "Forgive and forget" seemed to be the plan of action there, and to my mind, that just leaves them room to do it again in the future.

The court handed down very light sentences, if I recall---probation, and/or laughably short prison sentences--because they didn't want to disrupt the community. Yeah, like having 3 brothers and possibly their stepfather raping relatives isn't a disruption already.

Now, if you really want to talk cults I hate, look no further than Warren Jeff's Mormon cult in Colorado City, Arizona. (Luckily, the FBI recently nailed Jeffs, so hopefully the cult will fall apart in time.) There's an evil, abusive group of nutters if I ever saw one. Girls as young as 10 can get married off to 50-year-old men, and sometimes learn who they're betrothed to only a day in advance! No movies, no music, no television. Boys and girls are required to dress modestly. Outsiders are bullied and chased out. And, when the sexual competition gets too intense, the community's male elders would occasionally eject male adolescents from the community for minor offenses. Kids who grow up there receive practically no education and practical skills, especially the females, so if they escape or are ostracized, they really have to fight for survival.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy186.html




Amazing.

Of course they got off scott free. I am reminded of what I watched on CNN the other day about a new place being built in Utah I believe it was. I'll look it up to be sure. However, this is a LARGE LARGE place being built that would house the same type of individuals.

A place where it's okay to marry 10 year old girls etc. I see another Wakko in the works....
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


Top
#192928 - 10/11/06 11:14 AM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:

And, this is a slightly lame-o argument because I'm comparing apples to oranges, but to some degree, everyone has to figure out how to branch out from their upbringing and family and live in the "real world." Becoming independent is rarely easy or straightforward.




I don't find that lame-o at all. In fact, that was the same point I was making. It doesn't matter how you are raised, if you are not of that mindset you will eventually break free. We even have Satanists that were raised in Muslim families, so anything is possible.

Quote:

The only time I've really been irked at the Amish was when this particular Amish girl got raped by three of her brothers many years ago, and reported it to the police.




This situation is truly disgusting, but sadly, it's not all that surprising.

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#192929 - 10/11/06 11:23 AM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:

Now, if you really want to talk cults I hate, look no further than Warren Jeff's Mormon cult in Colorado City, Arizona. (Luckily, the FBI recently nailed Jeffs, so hopefully the cult will fall apart in time.)




Ditto, and it was pretty funny how when they found him he had been up to just about everything he preached against.

I would also add to that list the Westboro Baptist people. Nearly everyone in this family is an attorney, and it has been reported that they have been known to incite violence upon themselves so they can sue for damages. Said damages are used to fund their "missions". Very icky people.

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#192930 - 10/11/06 11:59 AM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
I think it would be interesting to do a study or ethnography of those Westboro Baptist idiots, because everything they do is so bizarre, cruel, and exaggerated. If anyone embodies what it means to be a true shit-disturber, it's the Phelps family. Therefore, if there's any series of deaths that would bring me pure and utter joy, it's theirs.

Then we could go protest their funeral. How's them apples?
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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