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the fact the CNN is giving them credence for their forgiving hearts by headlining this story makes me ill.

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You have to understand that Amish is their religion, way of life, and society. They are Evangelicals. They are a cult. They are ignorant.

They believe science and technology is evil, the work of the devil and meant to move them away from God. All they live to do is to please God.

I am somwhat confused as to why anyone would be shocked by this. They are the Amish. And it is CNN.

CNN will air anything that shows people being good Christians.

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You have every right to be pissed off. I would more than likely be right royalling miffed if I were in your situation as wel. The Amish, have every right to be fucked up enough to forgive the guy. At least the Amish is somewhat isolated.

And CNN... well... they just make me happier that I don't have a TV.

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Agreed.

As far as isolation is concerned, I feel they should be even MORE isolated. Jim Jones.....remember him? I feel they should all move to some deserted isle and drink Kool-Aid. This would be a sure positive way for them to 'remove' themselves from modern society.

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A little bit more information:

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A little bit more information:

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Aug. 24, 2006
Essex, Vt. Christopher Williams, 27, looking for his ex-girlfriend at Essex Elementary School, shot two teachers, killing one and wounding another. Before going to the school, he had killed the ex-girlfriend's mother.

Sept. 13, 2006
Montreal, Canada Kimveer Gill, 25, opened fire with a semiautomatic weapon at Dawson College. Anastasia De Sousa, 18, died and more than a dozen students and faculty were wounded before Gill killed himself.

Sept. 26, 2006
Bailey, Colo. Adult male held six students hostage at Platte Canyon High School and then shot and killed Emily Keyes, 16, and himself.

Sept. 29, 2006
Cazenovia, Wis. A 15-year-old student shot and killed Weston School principal John Klang.

Oct. 3, 2006
Nickel Mines, Pa. 32-year-old Carl Charles Roberts IV entered the one-room West Nickel Mines Amish School and shot 10 schoolgirls, ranging in age from 6 to 13 years old, and then himself. Five of the girls and Roberts died.

I think your outrage is warranted, but do keep in mind that the people who commit these crimes are people with no futures, and they see their actions as a way of feeling important in the eyes of the world.
Next thing you know the gunman is a household name, and every media channel in the world is setting the next looser up to be a star.
I can see this going on for a long time to come.

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but at what point do you label someone 'mentally ill' or psychotic?

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Magister Nemo has a rule of thumb which I find useful:

All humans should be considered psychotic until proven otherwise.

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but at what point do you label someone 'mentally ill' or psychotic?

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Magister Nemo has a rule of thumb which I find useful:

All humans should be considered psychotic until proven otherwise.

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Insanity: hanging from the rear spoiler wing of a Charger Daytona.

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OH NO you did NOT go there!

I would be inclined to think that you would think it even more insane that I wore a pair of GO GO boots and stood on top of that wing as well for a photo shoot for a magazine.

PS: It's not my car. I just drove it from California to IND. So I'm not the insane one. Blame the owner.....

Do you not question the sincerity their act of forgiveness? I do. Their public forgiveness of their daughters' killer may indeed be genuine, or it may be nothing more than an act. It raises many questions in my mind.

How many of those who attended the killer's funeral truly felt any shred of forgiveness in their hearts? How many of them were there for no other reason than to maintain approval of their peers and leaders, the very same ones that would excommunicate them for not appearing forgiving? And, how forgiving is excommunication, anyway?

Perhaps, they do find some warped form of closure in forgiveness or the act of its display. If they really searched their hearts, they may find they obtain their closure not from some act of forgiveness, but from seeing their daughters' murderer put six feet under the ground.

Did CNN show any footage of them smiling?

I was personally surprised to discover they pray for the death of us soldiers in combat overseas. That has a back-asswards appeal to it: Let us pray for the man who killed our daughters and give him forgiveness. Okay, now let us pray for the death of the men and women who fight for our safety and respond to attacks on our state.

It makes me wonder if they believe all the conspiracy theorists who muse about oil and other "less than noble" interests.

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I don't believe that they are 'against' technology. They may state this and it seems quite apparent when they are in a horse drawn buggy instead of that of Dodge sedan. However, they use many of the things we use including our electricity (they do venture away from their farms) our pay phones, yes this is okay as it's not in the home etc.

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Let me see if I can find something online.

The only source I have at the moment is the rather loud discussion about it outside my office this past Thursday afternoon. Some of our student soldiers, who were watching CNN or Fox News while on staff duty started the discussion when they saw it (on the bottom marquis, perhaps). As converstions of deer hunting and Fantasy Football, it spread through the compound like wildfire.

Apparently, I cannot also edit in HTML... please excuse the otherwise unnecessary extra post.

Here is one such link. In the associated blog, Brad speaks of Amish waving banners that read "Thank God for Dead Soldiers". It is not definitive, but it gives me cause to search for more.

Yep... turns out there is quite a lot of information available on this. A quick Google turns up many results.

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Yep... turns out there is quite a lot of information available on this. A quick Google turns up many results.

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Yes, and the information available says nothing about the Amish praying for soldiers' deaths. As Tiberia says, it's a very different religious group, with the idea of using the Amish incident as a publicity thing. And it worked... Google brings up news pages relating to them due to the presence of the word "Amish" in the articles.

Read carefully before spreading rumours

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I don't find it ridiculous.

I see it as a ritual that the Amish are following to cope with a horrible, tragic situation.

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I just feel sorry for the poor bloke, to get burried with those looney tunes at his funeral.

Hail Satan!

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I usually try to maintain a certain level of decorum in dealing with others in an online environment, but your words fill me with contempt.

Only an idiot would utter something so inane.
You are way out of line with Satanic-- nay,
reasoned thought(of any variety).

There is enough stupidity in the world already.
Go do something productive, like die.

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These pieces of shit were planning to protest at the funerals of the Amish girls.

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Amazing, and then again, not so amazing.

I am often asked why I have such contempt for 99% of the general population, my answer is that I don't trust people. I know them too well.



Once again, where are my cans of gas?

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I am equally disappointed to hear the word "cult" thrown around with no regard for the implication or definition!

In no way do the Amish qualify as a cult. They are not a first generation religion where members have literal contact with a charismatic founder (ie. the Branch Davidians, or Jim Jones.) They do not proselytize. They do not tithe, other than community projects.

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As someone who used that word for them just a few posts ago (even if in a tongue-in-cheek manner), I feel I should speak up. You're of course correct that the Amish don't fit the literal definition, but now that I think about it, I think the word does apply in at least some respects.

As you (and I) mentioned, they do not proselytize (except for their own children), and that's a major factor setting them apart from the commonly-agreed upon cults, I agree. But there's also some seriously twisted groupthink going on in there. Individuality and self-expression are strongly suppressed. Apostates are shunned, sometimes to the point of holding complete funerals for anyone who leaves the faith, as they are now "dead". The comings and goings of everyday people are strongly restricted by the Bishops (cars were forbidden precisely because they allowed people to roam a bit too far afield).

And if contact with the founder is required, then Scientology hasn't qualified for twenty years.

But I do take your point: lumping the Amish under the word "cult" along with the People's Temple class of group is just plain inaccurate, and after giving the matter some thought, I agree I spoke too freely in using the word. But in avoiding the term, it's important not to be blinded to their bad side.

-Chess

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Meeting as many Amish as I have, I would never believe they would pray for somebody to die. They don't have an active intrest in the outside world. Their only concern for outsiders is if they can borrow equipment from you (and they often give you a few pies or loaves of bread for the favor) or sell you baked goods.

The topics they discuss are more along the lines of agriculture.

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There is enough stupidity in the world already.
Go do something productive, like die.

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Fuck you ass hole, just because you are a CoS member does not make you any better than me, your just a guy with a label and obviously there is no freedom of speech within Satanism and when you do speak your mind you are told you are "stupid", no your stupid for not allowing my right of freedom of speech.

If your not careful Satanism will end up like Islam, riots when someone says something stupid, have you ever thought that my comments are probably what most were thinking? no because you are stupid.

I may as well add this little bit because I might get banned anyways, the subject of magic is a interesting as watching paint dry, I mean come on Satanists don't believe in a god but why magic? Magic leads to false hope, because that is exactly what it is, hey mum I put a curse on that guy you don't like, he is going to die very soon don't you worry, a couple of years past, nothing, but eventually he dies at the age of 89, hey my cursed worked mum, lets get back to reality shall we.

Hail me!
Hail free speech! (if it exists)

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Hail me!
Hail free speech! (if it exists)

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The Amish may be odd, but I prefer them to many other types of aggressive and hypocritical religionists. Really, I bear them no ill will.

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It exists.

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However, so does the "ignore user" button.

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you are an asshole and so full of yourself it's unreal, bye bye.

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Oh the irony!



*hits the ignore button*

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really don't care what or who someone is affiliated with (as far as religion is concerned) it's the act of forgiveness and showing up at the man's funeral that bothers me be you Baptist, Catholic, or wearing a black brimmed hat and plain clothes.

This is the whole message I am trying to convey. I don't care who you are, who you worship or what label you may hold title of. I DO care about acts that appear quite mentally unstable.

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I think most of us feel that all "traditional" religions are crazy---its part of the reason we're Satanists! I hardly think the Amish are anymore crazy than the rest!

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really don't care what or who someone is affiliated with (as far as religion is concerned) it's the act of forgiveness and showing up at the man's funeral that bothers me be you Baptist, Catholic, or wearing a black brimmed hat and plain clothes.

This is the whole message I am trying to convey. I don't care who you are, who you worship or what label you may hold title of. I DO care about acts that appear quite mentally unstable.

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yes, but it wasn't your child's funeral, or your fsmily member who commited the crime. Crazy? Sure! Crazier than a hundred other Christian beliefs or institutions? Not hardly. Crazy enough to hurt/jeopardize/interfere with you? Not even a little.

Y~

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Indeed Priestess. It was not my child's funeral you are correct. It does however pain me to have been to one of these funerals and then to see one headlined on CNN with the whole 'awww look at these poor poor wounded people with forgiveness and love in their hearts'. This bothers me. The act it's self bothers me.

Is it enough to jeopardize/interfere with me? Not really. Does it hurt me? As a mother who lost her only child watches people attend the funeral of children who were shot execution style toting 'forgiveness' with them, then my answer would be yes, yes it does slightly sting.

Good insight however. No, My life is not jeopardized or interfered with as a result of what has happened in PA.

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Religion, at its best, gives us answers to life's questions.

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Indeed Priestess. It was not my child's funeral you are correct. It does however pain me to have been to one of these funerals and then to see one headlined on CNN with the whole 'awww look at these poor poor wounded people with forgiveness and love in their hearts'. This bothers me. The act it's self bothers me.

Is it enough to jeopardize/interfere with me? Not really. Does it hurt me? As a mother who lost her only child watches people attend the funeral of children who were shot execution style toting 'forgiveness' with them, then my answer would be yes, yes it does slightly sting.

Good insight however. No, My life is not jeopardized or interfered with as a result of what has happened in PA.

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Our religion reminds us:

Do not complain about that which you willingly subject yourself to.


Walk away from the TV---sometimes you just have to. I'm anews junkie, and often have to remind myself that I don't have to endure--just turn it off.

Y~

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Once again sound advice from you Priestess. I appreciate your insight as well as everyone else who has contributed to this thread (minus one certain individual mind you)

Incidentally, I killed my Television last night.

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[...]I am shocked that so many of the posters on this thread don't admire the fact that the Amish have done precisely what we want! They have created a complete total environment replete with a shared philosophy and aesthetic.

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It is still a religious cult that holds its members in unnatural shackles. And unfortunately for their children they do proselytize. It is in fact amongst the worst religious cults that are guilty of child abuse of the worst kind, subjecting them to severe mental cruelty.

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Surley a Total Environment from a Satanic perspective is one that is created by an individual for the purpose of providing personally agreeable surroundings.

The Amish community is created around outdated old testament biblical stipulations.

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The Amish community is created around outdated old testament biblical stipulations.

They deny all fleshly pleasures and even laughter is seen as a wordly sin.

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They don't need physical contact with a charismatic leader. That is not at all the basis on which we can define a cult. Just like any branch of Christianity they believe their leader exists (Jesus).

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And actually each of their communities have "elders" who rule with a "rod of iron" from laws drawn from their interpretation of Christian discipline.

Nah, this is one of the cruelist dictatoral cults in the world.

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Well, I define Christianity as a cult full stop.

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I wouldn't go so far as to call the Amish a cult but I know that they make it extremely difficult to leave the faith-I think of it as the entanglement theory, to borrow and distort the definition from quantum. A bunch of seemingly random elements at first glance which upon further investigation add up to entanglement.

If you are 16, with what amounts to a fourth grade education-what options do you have? Everyone you know is Amish, your entire support system is Amish and your education is very limited so branching out on your own is nearly impossible.

The entanglement theory is weaved in advertising and religions and is notoriously successful.

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If you are 16, with what amounts to a fourth grade education-what options do you have?

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Simply for the sake of clarification and nothing more, the Amish education their children through the eighth grade. Albeit, not adequate for making a go of it alone in an alien society, but still a great deal better than fourth grade.

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If you are 16, with what amounts to a fourth grade education-what options do you have?

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Simply for the sake of clarification and nothing more, the Amish education their children through the eighth grade. Albeit, not adequate for making a go of it alone in an alien society, but still a great deal better than fourth grade.

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What level of education are they truly receiving? What curriculum are they receiving and 'who' is the teacher and what is the history/extent of his or her own education?

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That is a question that varies greatly from school to school, Amish or not. My question to you is why do you care? If they eventually come to the realization that they are "not like most", they will eventually break free of the constraints put upon them and pursue their goals. What, when, and how that transpires, is not my concern. If you want to know more about the Amish, check wikipedia.

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He even went so far as to paint on the side of a barn these words:

"Skate Or Die Sirs". I commend that!

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He should have been arrested for vandalism.

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Meeting as many Amish as I have, I would never believe they would pray for somebody to die. They don't have an active intrest in the outside world. Their only concern for outsiders is if they can borrow equipment from you (and they often give you a few pies or loaves of bread for the favor) or sell you baked goods.

The topics they discuss are more along the lines of agriculture.

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I too have met many Amish people in both PA, and in IN. Plain common folk who really don't bother anyone. I have no problem with this, I do have a problem with their philosophy on not only life but that of death and 'forgiveness'. I see the Amish people much as I see other herd mentality religious groups. No, the Amish don't talk to 'god' on two way radios but to me they are no different than those that do.

While I will agree with you on that matter that they mostly talk of agriculture etc.it really has no bearing on the original topic at hand which happens to be 'them not praying for death' but FORGIVING and attending the very bastards funeral that shot and killed young school girls execution style. It has not yet been determined if he sexually molested any of them at this point, but suffice to say I believe it went down as the media says:

He was planning it, and then the cops showed up. He got antsy and started firing then turning the gun on himself. COWARD that he was.

I don't believe in the Amish peoples 'god' but those kids did not deserve what happened to them and nor do they deserve their ignorant parents and fellow community members to attend the funeral of their killer. If someone kills me? I want my loved ones to be SCORTCHED EARTH mad about it. I don't want them attending my killers funeral as a show of love and forgiveness. LOVE is out the door here. Forgiveness has lost it's ferver at this point.

They may be good farmers, but they are mentally ill individuals.


HORRIBLE and I cannot excuse this yellow bellied behavior.

They do have pitch forks no? I'd stab his dead corpse and use his mouth for a urinal. At this point 'this supposed god that they worship' would be erased and removed.

In that worthless book of theirs is this quote:

"vengeance is mine saith the lord".

When I'm viewing my dead child in a coffin killed by a fruit cake? (and I have personally done this with my own child) VENGEANCE becomes a show of my own. It's all mine baby! I don't need a god at this point. I need a gun or a blunt object. I am very, VERY lucky not to be in prison myself, because I will agree with one thing in that fairy tale book of theirs.....

EYE FOR AN EYE, TOOTH for a TOOTH (and this is my own add, corpse for a corpse).

Give me that other cheek...

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What level of education are they truly receiving? What curriculum are they receiving and 'who' is the teacher and what is the history/extent of his or her own education?

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Amish or not. My question to you is why do you care?

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Yes, where does a teenager run to when he/she has been raised in a very controlled enviornment? What skills aside from farming, quilting or pie baking will help them become productive citizens outside of their controlled community?

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This seemingly gentle and passive (sect, cult wahatever) is actually the most insidious and extreme of Christian fundamentalist groups in the world.

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Being that the term "cult" has so many different meanings today, I can see how it may apply here in a somewhat traditional sense. Although there is no tangible central charismatic figure, one could certainly say in this case that it is their god that plays that part.

The only tolerable thing I can see is that they don't try to inflict their personal beliefs/values into government policy as the evangelicals and catholics do. Well that, and I hear they make some really nice quilts.

What goes, "Clip....clop....clip....clop....clip....clop....bang-bang-bang-clip-clop-clip-clop-clip-clop"?

An Amish drive by shooting. .....

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Are you referring to the 8th grade education of that of public schools or that of home schools or Xtian schools?

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At least the Amish occupy a straightforward, enclosed, total environment world, and teach their children principles for actually getting along in that environment

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Someone mentioned that these children could escape and go open a 'pie shop'.

Sure. And with what financial footing would they start this endevour? The 3.00 USD that they have in their pocket?

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Maybe they could get some advice from Martha Stewart.

I would also like to say, that refusing to patronize a business based solely on my low opinion of their religious inclinations would make shopping very difficult, if not down right impossible. If the pie, quilt, rocking chair, etc. is a quality product, I couldn't care less who made/sells it.

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At least the Amish occupy a straightforward, enclosed, total environment world, and teach their children principles for actually getting along in that environment.

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Though, I'm much, much angrier at fundamentalist Christians who live in our world, but teach their children backward, asinine lessons and ideas that essentially trap them in a liminal state, a "nowhere land." At least the Amish occupy a straightforward, enclosed, total environment world, and teach their children principles for actually getting along in that environment.

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Someone mentioned that these children could escape and go open a 'pie shop'.

Sure. And with what financial footing would they start this endevour? The 3.00 USD that they have in their pocket?

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Maybe they could get some advice from Martha Stewart.

I would also like to say, that refusing to patronize a business based solely on my low opinion of their religious inclinations would make shopping very difficult, if not down right impossible. If the pie, quilt, rocking chair, etc. is a quality product, I couldn't care less who made/sells it.

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I couldn't agree more. The Amish make damned good furniture as well as baked goods/ cheese/ etc.

Martha Stuart quite frankly scares me to death. She does however do wonders with window treatments.

My husband and I stayed at an Amish Bed and Breakfast in Indiana years ago. It was.... a unique experience. I will buy their goods if they tickle my fancy.

My whole point was that they have no quams with taking 'sinners' money which does not make them self sufficient. They do rely on the help of outsiders ie. money.

They do make one hell of an apple fritter, I'll give them that much.

I actually own several pieces of furniture (including lamps) yes, the Amish make lamps they just don't use them) that I enjoy a great deal.

I have had friends visit my home and I am ammused as I watch their jaws drop to the floor.

I don't have spider webs or black throughout the house but yet that of pastel colors and many Amish items. No one would suspect me of being a Satanist (based on my household decor)

It's good to have secrets isn't it?

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The only tolerable thing I can see is that they don't try to inflict their personal beliefs/values into government policy as the evangelicals and catholics do.

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And, this is a slightly lame-o argument because I'm comparing apples to oranges, but to some degree, everyone has to figure out how to branch out from their upbringing and family and live in the "real world." Becoming independent is rarely easy or straightforward.

I tend to put Amish in the same category as, say, certain types of indigenous people. Their ways are primitive compared to ours, but they see themselves as preserving crucial traditions and keeping certain social problems and evils at bay, so of course you can predict how they're going to act and how they're going to socialize their kids. And, except in bizarre, unusual cases, they don't seem to out-and-out abuse their children or get them mixed up in strange movements, like Pentecostals and their ilk.

Though, I definitely think their practice of shunning those who choose to leave the community is contemptible and irrational. Not like I can do anything to fix or influence that, though.

The only time I've really been irked at the Amish was when this particular Amish girl got raped by three of her brothers many years ago, and reported it to the police. The community was kinder and more forgiving towards her brothers than her in the end, primarily because she had involved the police, effectively airing the community's dirty laundry to everyone--and it was dirty laundry about S-E-X, to boot. Meanwhile, the boys asked for forgiveness from the deity and the community, and were technically forgiven therefore. That one really got on my nerves, and struck me as being truly unjust.

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Yes, how dare she involve the outside world in this affair? How dare she, even though they can come into OUR world and make money and benefit from us. How dare she call 911.

This bothers me as well.

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Not only that, but the community didn't do a whole lot to punish the brothers. "Forgive and forget" seemed to be the plan of action there, and to my mind, that just leaves them room to do it again in the future.

The court handed down very light sentences, if I recall---probation, and/or laughably short prison sentences--because they didn't want to disrupt the community. Yeah, like having 3 brothers and possibly their stepfather raping relatives isn't a disruption already.

Now, if you really want to talk cults I hate, look no further than Warren Jeff's Mormon cult in Colorado City, Arizona. (Luckily, the FBI recently nailed Jeffs, so hopefully the cult will fall apart in time.) There's an evil, abusive group of nutters if I ever saw one. Girls as young as 10 can get married off to 50-year-old men, and sometimes learn who they're betrothed to only a day in advance! No movies, no music, no television. Boys and girls are required to dress modestly. Outsiders are bullied and chased out. And, when the sexual competition gets too intense, the community's male elders would occasionally eject male adolescents from the community for minor offenses. Kids who grow up there receive practically no education and practical skills, especially the females, so if they escape or are ostracized, they really have to fight for survival.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy186.html

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And, this is a slightly lame-o argument because I'm comparing apples to oranges, but to some degree, everyone has to figure out how to branch out from their upbringing and family and live in the "real world." Becoming independent is rarely easy or straightforward.

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The only time I've really been irked at the Amish was when this particular Amish girl got raped by three of her brothers many years ago, and reported it to the police.

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Now, if you really want to talk cults I hate, look no further than Warren Jeff's Mormon cult in Colorado City, Arizona. (Luckily, the FBI recently nailed Jeffs, so hopefully the cult will fall apart in time.)

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Ditto, and it was pretty funny how when they found him he had been up to just about everything he preached against.

I would also add to that list the Westboro Baptist people. Nearly everyone in this family is an attorney, and it has been reported that they have been known to incite violence upon themselves so they can sue for damages. Said damages are used to fund their "missions". Very icky people.

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Then we could go protest their funeral. How's them apples?

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How about a party to celebrate instead? We could dance on their graves to "Hava Nagilah" and "It's Raining Men" while shouting "Hail Satan".

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Then we could go protest their funeral. How's them apples?

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How about a party to celebrate instead? We could dance on their graves to "Hava Nagilah" and "It's Raining Men" while shouting "Hail Satan".

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I find this a splendid idea. The It's Raining Men is what won me over.

We could add Satan into the song like such:

"It's raining men....Hail Satan it's raining men..... Satan"!

I needed a good laugh today and call me easily amused but I did so laugh after viewing Tiberia's post.

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But just as a sidenote, imagine the the extent of psychological damage inflicted by the mind control they exercise over the children from birth.

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