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#192826 - 10/08/06 09:16 AM Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous?
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
I was just watching CNN Headline news and the 'big story' at this moment is that they just burried the man who shot and killed those little girls in the Amish school.

A little bit more information:

MANY of the Amish people in the community have attended HIS funeral as a show of forgiveness.

Forgiveness? Show me your other cheek and I'll bash that one as well.

As someone who has lost her only child (also due to violence)I cannot comprehend any shred of forgiveness. I have not forgiven nor have I forgotton.

I think these people are insane and the fact the CNN is giving them credence for their forgiving hearts by headlining this story makes me ill.

I don't even believe the man deserved a proper funeral. They should have thrown his body over a bridge in a Hefty bag weighted down with bricks.

I will never understand this turn the other cheek mentality. When I am hurt I will retaliate.

I do honestly try to understand what motivates people in their thought process, but this is something I cannot relate to nor understand.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192827 - 10/08/06 09:33 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
Mr Sam Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Somewhere in the UK.
Quote:

the fact the CNN is giving them credence for their forgiving hearts by headlining this story makes me ill.




I agree with you there, the fact that they forgive him is disrespectful to their children and should not be credited at all. This kind of mentality sickens me.

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#192828 - 10/08/06 09:36 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
You have to understand that Amish is their religion, way of life, and society. They are Evangelicals. They are a cult. They are ignorant.

They believe science and technology is evil, the work of the devil and meant to move them away from God. All they live to do is to please God.

I am somwhat confused as to why anyone would be shocked by this. They are the Amish. And it is CNN.

CNN will air anything that shows people being good Christians.
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#192829 - 10/08/06 10:02 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: tovasshi]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

You have to understand that Amish is their religion, way of life, and society. They are Evangelicals. They are a cult. They are ignorant.

They believe science and technology is evil, the work of the devil and meant to move them away from God. All they live to do is to please God.

I am somwhat confused as to why anyone would be shocked by this. They are the Amish. And it is CNN.

CNN will air anything that shows people being good Christians.






I'll agree they are a cult. I'll agree that they are mislead and on the same token I will agree that like every other Xtian they contradict themselves. Rules are changed based on the given situation at the time. I don't believe that they are 'against' technology. They may state this and it seems quite apparent when they are in a horse drawn buggy instead of that of Dodge sedan. However, they use many of the things we use including our electricity (they do venture away from their farms) our pay phones, yes this is okay as it's not in the home etc. They sell quilts to evil modern 'sinners' and this somehow is okay. To make a profit off of the very people they condem. I suppose, now thinking more clearly that it is no surprise that they would do something such as attending a psychopaths funeral. NUT JOBS.

Yes, it is CNN but that doesn't make it right but that doesn't mean I can't be pissed off about it. There are far more important topics to report to the public. Time to kill my TV.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192830 - 10/08/06 10:09 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
You have every right to be pissed off. I would more than likely be right royalling miffed if I were in your situation as wel. The Amish, have every right to be fucked up enough to forgive the guy. At least the Amish is somewhat isolated.

And CNN... well... they just make me happier that I don't have a TV.
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#192831 - 10/08/06 10:14 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: tovasshi]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

You have every right to be pissed off. I would more than likely be right royalling miffed if I were in your situation as wel. The Amish, have every right to be fucked up enough to forgive the guy. At least the Amish is somewhat isolated.

And CNN... well... they just make me happier that I don't have a TV.




Agreed.

As far as isolation is concerned, I feel they should be even MORE isolated. Jim Jones.....remember him? I feel they should all move to some deserted isle and drink Kool-Aid. This would be a sure positive way for them to 'remove' themselves from modern society.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


Top
#192832 - 10/08/06 10:17 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
Agreed.
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Hi.

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#192833 - 10/08/06 10:43 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
Fifi_la_Bonne Offline

Cos Priestess

Registered: 04/02/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Blighty
I don't find it ridiculous.

I see it as a ritual that the Amish are following to cope with a horrible, tragic situation.

I found it interesting to read that they are including the wife and children of the murderer in their rituals. It must be a terrible position for that family as well.

Attempting to find any sort of relief in such awful circumstances is understandable.

I don't generally read or listen to the news. It is full of sad stories every day.

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#192834 - 10/08/06 11:00 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Quote:

A little bit more information:




Aug. 24, 2006
Essex, Vt. Christopher Williams, 27, looking for his ex-girlfriend at Essex Elementary School, shot two teachers, killing one and wounding another. Before going to the school, he had killed the ex-girlfriend's mother.

Sept. 13, 2006
Montreal, Canada Kimveer Gill, 25, opened fire with a semiautomatic weapon at Dawson College. Anastasia De Sousa, 18, died and more than a dozen students and faculty were wounded before Gill killed himself.

Sept. 26, 2006
Bailey, Colo. Adult male held six students hostage at Platte Canyon High School and then shot and killed Emily Keyes, 16, and himself.

Sept. 29, 2006
Cazenovia, Wis. A 15-year-old student shot and killed Weston School principal John Klang.

Oct. 3, 2006
Nickel Mines, Pa. 32-year-old Carl Charles Roberts IV entered the one-room West Nickel Mines Amish School and shot 10 schoolgirls, ranging in age from 6 to 13 years old, and then himself. Five of the girls and Roberts died.

I think your outrage is warranted, but do keep in mind that the people who commit these crimes are people with no futures, and they see their actions as a way of feeling important in the eyes of the world.
Next thing you know the gunman is a household name, and every media channel in the world is setting the next looser up to be a star.
I can see this going on for a long time to come.
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#192835 - 10/08/06 11:03 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
princeofdarkness Offline


Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 57
Loc: England
I just feel sorry for the poor bloke, to get burried with those looney tunes at his funeral.

Hail Satan!

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#192836 - 10/08/06 11:11 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Lust]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Quote:

A little bit more information:




Aug. 24, 2006
Essex, Vt. Christopher Williams, 27, looking for his ex-girlfriend at Essex Elementary School, shot two teachers, killing one and wounding another. Before going to the school, he had killed the ex-girlfriend's mother.

Sept. 13, 2006
Montreal, Canada Kimveer Gill, 25, opened fire with a semiautomatic weapon at Dawson College. Anastasia De Sousa, 18, died and more than a dozen students and faculty were wounded before Gill killed himself.

Sept. 26, 2006
Bailey, Colo. Adult male held six students hostage at Platte Canyon High School and then shot and killed Emily Keyes, 16, and himself.

Sept. 29, 2006
Cazenovia, Wis. A 15-year-old student shot and killed Weston School principal John Klang.

Oct. 3, 2006
Nickel Mines, Pa. 32-year-old Carl Charles Roberts IV entered the one-room West Nickel Mines Amish School and shot 10 schoolgirls, ranging in age from 6 to 13 years old, and then himself. Five of the girls and Roberts died.

I think your outrage is warranted, but do keep in mind that the people who commit these crimes are people with no futures, and they see their actions as a way of feeling important in the eyes of the world.
Next thing you know the gunman is a household name, and every media channel in the world is setting the next looser up to be a star.
I can see this going on for a long time to come.




Of course I know about these past incidents. The difference between those prior to the October 3'rd Amish shooting is that these people attended the bastards funeral with flowers and forgiveness in their 'hearts'.

This is what angers me the most and complexes me at the same time.

How can you be so misguided that you would do such a thing? I know there are sheep. We meet sheeple on a daily basis. I know there are mentally ill individuals out there, but at what point do you label someone 'mentally ill' or psychotic?

I feel they are no different from the man who killed their own children. VERY DISTURBED and are in need of a padded cell and straight jacket....

Anyone willing to turn the other cheek and attend the funeral of a man that planned (alleged) to sexually molest small children (KY Jelly) and then kill them because his baby died needs to be put out of thier misery as well. I would find it to be a public service.

Pish posh. Where are my cans of gas?
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


Top
#192837 - 10/08/06 11:37 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
Fifi_la_Bonne Offline

Cos Priestess

Registered: 04/02/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Blighty
Quote:

but at what point do you label someone 'mentally ill' or psychotic?




Magister Nemo has a rule of thumb which I find useful:

All humans should be considered psychotic until proven otherwise.

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#192838 - 10/08/06 11:50 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Fifi_la_Bonne]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Quote:

but at what point do you label someone 'mentally ill' or psychotic?




Magister Nemo has a rule of thumb which I find useful:

All humans should be considered psychotic until proven otherwise.





I like that. Thank you for sharing it with me.

Brilliant!
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


Top
#192839 - 10/08/06 11:53 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
"How can you be so misguided that you would do such a thing?"

What makes you think that I am misguided? I only offered you an opinion as to why these lunatics are doing what they do. I can only think that you are not interested in that perspective.

As for the Amish attending and forgiving. This is what they do, and is what they have been doing for a very long time. The Amish are simply doing what is being expected of them, if they were not then they would find themselves at the ridicule in the eyes of the world, and labeled as hypocrites.
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#192840 - 10/08/06 11:54 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8237
Insanity: hanging from the rear spoiler wing of a Charger Daytona.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#192841 - 10/08/06 12:01 PM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Phineas]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Insanity: hanging from the rear spoiler wing of a Charger Daytona.




OH NO you did NOT go there!

I would be inclined to think that you would think it even more insane that I wore a pair of GO GO boots and stood on top of that wing as well for a photo shoot for a magazine.

PS: It's not my car. I just drove it from California to IND. So I'm not the insane one. Blame the owner.....
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


Top
#192842 - 10/08/06 02:34 PM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
I hear ya there. It's definitely ridiculous to turn the other cheek when you've just been unjustly violated by a scumbag.

I'm actually more annoyed at news stations and other sources who will celebrate this forgiveness, rather than at the Amish, who are just simple people who mostly keep to themselves and try to behave in a way consistent with their faith. Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly, Amish gotta be quiet, modest, and zipper-free, so I'm not surprised by their response.

And, I'd classify them as a tribe, rather than a cult. A genuine cult wouldn't allow people to go on Rumspringer. (Though, they do have some "cult-ish" elements, such as their fear of the outside world, their quiet rejection of those who leave the community, and their knee-jerk mistrust of us "English" folk.)
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192843 - 10/08/06 02:52 PM The Devils Playground [Re: Evil_Eve]
redheadgrl Offline


Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 273
I watched a documentary on the Amish-Devils Playground. When you first hear about the fact that they allow their 16 year old kids a year to decide if they want to remain Amish or live in the outside world, you're thinking-that is pretty liberal-minded. During the year, the kids can party and have sex and their families let them.

As I watched the doc I realized a couple of important things-at 16 an Amish child has the equivalent of a 4th grade education in the United States. Makes it nearly impossible to get a job and live a productive life outside of their community. They do have lots of applied skill, but this isn't valued for the most part-outside of their community.

Also-handing a 16 year old freedom after spending the first 15 years of their life in a very controlled repressive environment is going to cause most of them to 'fall from grace' as is human nature, then run back to their support system once they hit rock bottom.
The only support system they have is their Amish family. Not surprisingly-most of them choose to remain Amish when Rumspringa rolls around.

If they choose to leave at 17, they are disowned from their family unless they choose to return.

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#192844 - 10/08/06 02:56 PM Re: The Devils Playground [Re: redheadgrl]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Yup. Rumspringer is a nice thought and a good opportunity, of course, but things being what they are, of course most people will retreat back into the world they knew.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192845 - 10/08/06 03:06 PM Re: The Devils Playground [Re: TrojZyr]
redheadgrl Offline


Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 273
Without a support system they don't have much of a choice. The documentary filmed a young woman who had left the community, she was heartbroken about being disowned. She couldn't make herself live a life she knew was a lie. At the end she moved to TX after receiving a scholarship-and she finally seemed happy.

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#192846 - 10/08/06 03:16 PM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1017

Do you not question the sincerity their act of forgiveness? I do. Their public forgiveness of their daughters' killer may indeed be genuine, or it may be nothing more than an act. It raises many questions in my mind.

How many of those who attended the killer's funeral truly felt any shred of forgiveness in their hearts? How many of them were there for no other reason than to maintain approval of their peers and leaders, the very same ones that would excommunicate them for not appearing forgiving? And, how forgiving is excommunication, anyway?

Perhaps, they do find some warped form of closure in forgiveness or the act of its display. If they really searched their hearts, they may find they obtain their closure not from some act of forgiveness, but from seeing their daughters' murderer put six feet under the ground.

Did CNN show any footage of them smiling?

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Refuse to die.

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#192847 - 10/08/06 03:25 PM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: TrojZyr]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1017

I was personally surprised to discover they pray for the death of us soldiers in combat overseas. That has a back-asswards appeal to it: Let us pray for the man who killed our daughters and give him forgiveness. Okay, now let us pray for the death of the men and women who fight for our safety and respond to attacks on our state.

It makes me wonder if they believe all the conspiracy theorists who muse about oil and other "less than noble" interests.

_________________________

Refuse to die.

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#192848 - 10/08/06 03:29 PM Praying for their deaths? [Re: TheAbysmal]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
When you say "pray for their death", do you mean, pray that they die, or pray for benefit of the souls of the dearly departed?

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#192849 - 10/08/06 03:33 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: Linguascelesta]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1017
I meant that they pray for us to die. That is their stance on the GWOT: We should die because we are evil for killing those that seek our death or conversion to Islam.
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#192850 - 10/08/06 03:46 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: TheAbysmal]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
Interesting. Would you be so kind as to link to a source for this?

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#192851 - 10/08/06 03:57 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: Linguascelesta]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
I'd like to see a source as well. I'd never put it past any religionist to get pissy and become hypocritical or vengeful, but I'm used to the Amish being passive and modest at all costs, so it'd be interesting if they've made an exception in this case.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192852 - 10/08/06 03:58 PM Re: The Devils Playground [Re: redheadgrl]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
That sounds like a fascinating documentary. I'll have to check it out.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192853 - 10/08/06 04:05 PM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:

I don't believe that they are 'against' technology. They may state this and it seems quite apparent when they are in a horse drawn buggy instead of that of Dodge sedan. However, they use many of the things we use including our electricity (they do venture away from their farms) our pay phones, yes this is okay as it's not in the home etc.




Indeed.

A few years back, Wired magazine ran an eye-opening article on the Amish, particularly on their approach to technology. It turns out that their opinions are a bit more nuanced than "Yon English talking boxes are sinful; lo, the Devil speaks through them." In particular, the article covers the Amish reactions to the spread of cell phones among their people. A recommended read.

Despite their interesting take on such matters, the Amish still qualify in my book as a standard-issue Creepy Cult. They get their free pass in the media, I suspect, for two reasons -- they don't ever try to recruit, and they make such charming arts and crafts.

-Chess

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#192854 - 10/08/06 04:15 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: TrojZyr]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1017

Let me see if I can find something online.

The only source I have at the moment is the rather loud discussion about it outside my office this past Thursday afternoon. Some of our student soldiers, who were watching CNN or Fox News while on staff duty started the discussion when they saw it (on the bottom marquis, perhaps). As converstions of deer hunting and Fantasy Football, it spread through the compound like wildfire.

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#192855 - 10/08/06 04:23 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: TheAbysmal]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1017

Apparently, I cannot also edit in HTML... please excuse the otherwise unnecessary extra post.

Here is one such link. In the associated blog, Brad speaks of Amish waving banners that read "Thank God for Dead Soldiers". It is not definitive, but it gives me cause to search for more.

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Refuse to die.

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#192856 - 10/08/06 04:28 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: TheAbysmal]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1017

Yep... turns out there is quite a lot of information available on this. A quick Google turns up many results.

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Refuse to die.

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#192857 - 10/08/06 04:40 PM Re: The Devils Playground [Re: TrojZyr]
redheadgrl Offline


Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 273
It is fascinating, I read it was mostly fabricated because the Amish wouldn't allow themselves to be documented. I can understand this, as the documented Amish would most likely become the representation for the Amish at large----and others would take the liberty to generalize them.

The basic tenants still stand and the young people interviewed (the ones who disassociated themselves from the Amish) spoke with great candor.

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#192858 - 10/08/06 05:54 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: TheAbysmal]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
The following anti-soldier flag waving was in reference to Westboro Baptist, not the Amish.

"...the Fred Phelps church out of Topeka, KS is targeting the funerals of these Amish girls to protest and promote their hate-filled anti-gay propaganda. The church, which claims about 70 members, believes that the 9/11 attacks, the deaths of U.S. troops in war and Hurricane Katrina are manifestations of Gods punishment for a country that does not outlaw homosexuality. They wave banners and signs like, Thank God for dead soldiers."

These pieces of shit were planning to protest at the funerals of the Amish girls.

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#192859 - 10/08/06 06:00 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: TheAbysmal]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
Quote:

Yep... turns out there is quite a lot of information available on this. A quick Google turns up many results.




Yes, and the information available says nothing about the Amish praying for soldiers' deaths. As Tiberia says, it's a very different religious group, with the idea of using the Amish incident as a publicity thing. And it worked... Google brings up news pages relating to them due to the presence of the word "Amish" in the articles.

Read carefully before spreading rumours

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#192860 - 10/08/06 06:17 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: Linguascelesta]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Here is a video that shows the insanity behind the WBC.

Phelps whacko

And to think our soldiers fight for her right to say that.

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#192861 - 10/08/06 06:20 PM Total Environment, anyone? [Re: Fifi_la_Bonne]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Quote:

I don't find it ridiculous.

I see it as a ritual that the Amish are following to cope with a horrible, tragic situation.





Totally agreed.

While none of us Satanists can understand the nature of their forgiveness I am shocked that so many of the posters on this thread don't admire the fact that the Amish have done precisely what we want! They have created a complete total environment replete with a shared philosophy and aesthetic. They do not proselytize, and they mind their own business. We could all wish to have neighbors like that.

I am equally disappointed to hear the word "cult" thrown around with no regard for the implication or definition!

In no way do the Amish qualify as a cult. They are not a first generation religion where members have literal contact with a charismatic founder (ie. the Branch Davidians, or Jim Jones.) They do not proselytize. They do not tithe, other than community projects. Furthermore the minute you call someone a "cultist" you are excusing their personal behaviour, and laying blame on thought rather than deed.

Be disgusted that their method of coping involves forgiveness---I don't and couldn't get it either, but some folks find our coping mechanisms a bit outre' as well.

As for making claims that these people prayed for the death of anyone, without checking it out first, is a crime of stupidity and a failure to emphasize doubt. That is how the Satanic Panic started. Be better than that.

And for princeofdarkness calling a child murderer a poor bloke I just want to say that no Satanist would be impressed with such forced and absurd antisocial statements. Our religion proudly prohibits crimes against children, and those who metaphorically stand by the coward who perpetrated this act, should do so literally and take the same way out.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#192862 - 10/08/06 07:05 PM Some Things Just Have to be Said. [Re: princeofdarkness]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
Quote:

I just feel sorry for the poor bloke, to get burried with those looney tunes at his funeral.

Hail Satan!




I usually try to maintain a certain level of decorum in dealing with others in an online environment, but your words fill me with contempt.

Only an idiot would utter something so inane.
You are way out of line with Satanic-- nay,
reasoned thought(of any variety).

There is enough stupidity in the world already.
Go do something productive, like die.

_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.
~ Charles Bukowski


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#192863 - 10/08/06 07:42 PM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
CWH Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3746
If my daughter had been killed, yes I would have attended the killer's funeral.

But only so I could piss on his grave.

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#192864 - 10/08/06 08:06 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: Tiberia]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:



These pieces of shit were planning to protest at the funerals of the Amish girls.




Amazing, and then again, not so amazing.

I am often asked why I have such contempt for 99% of the general population, my answer is that I don't trust people. I know them too well.



Once again, where are my cans of gas?
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192865 - 10/08/06 09:48 PM Re: Total Environment, anyone? [Re: Ygraine]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:

I am equally disappointed to hear the word "cult" thrown around with no regard for the implication or definition!

In no way do the Amish qualify as a cult. They are not a first generation religion where members have literal contact with a charismatic founder (ie. the Branch Davidians, or Jim Jones.) They do not proselytize. They do not tithe, other than community projects.




As someone who used that word for them just a few posts ago (even if in a tongue-in-cheek manner), I feel I should speak up. You're of course correct that the Amish don't fit the literal definition, but now that I think about it, I think the word does apply in at least some respects.

As you (and I) mentioned, they do not proselytize (except for their own children), and that's a major factor setting them apart from the commonly-agreed upon cults, I agree. But there's also some seriously twisted groupthink going on in there. Individuality and self-expression are strongly suppressed. Apostates are shunned, sometimes to the point of holding complete funerals for anyone who leaves the faith, as they are now "dead". The comings and goings of everyday people are strongly restricted by the Bishops (cars were forbidden precisely because they allowed people to roam a bit too far afield).

And if contact with the founder is required, then Scientology hasn't qualified for twenty years.

But I do take your point: lumping the Amish under the word "cult" along with the People's Temple class of group is just plain inaccurate, and after giving the matter some thought, I agree I spoke too freely in using the word. But in avoiding the term, it's important not to be blinded to their bad side.

-Chess

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#192866 - 10/08/06 09:56 PM Re: Total Environment, anyone? [Re: Ygraine]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Indeed, Priestess. I have far more respect and admiration for the Amish than I do for the "moderate" Christians who wander about society like drooling dregs. The Amish both take their religion seriously, which if you're going to swallow bullshit, then drink up!, as well as creating an amazing time warp of existence.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#192867 - 10/08/06 10:16 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: Tiberia]
Sideshowtuper Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 464
Loc: NY, USA
Meeting as many Amish as I have, I would never believe they would pray for somebody to die. They don't have an active intrest in the outside world. Their only concern for outsiders is if they can borrow equipment from you (and they often give you a few pies or loaves of bread for the favor) or sell you baked goods.

The topics they discuss are more along the lines of agriculture.
_________________________
"All animals except man know that the principal business of life is to enjoy it."
- Samuel Butler


Sideshow Tuper on Undercroft

13 Moons Occult Supplies

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#192868 - 10/08/06 11:01 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: Sideshowtuper]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Meeting as many Amish as I have, I would never believe they would pray for somebody to die. They don't have an active intrest in the outside world. Their only concern for outsiders is if they can borrow equipment from you (and they often give you a few pies or loaves of bread for the favor) or sell you baked goods.

The topics they discuss are more along the lines of agriculture.




I too have met many Amish people in both PA, and in IN. Plain common folk who really don't bother anyone. I have no problem with this, I do have a problem with their philosophy on not only life but that of death and 'forgiveness'. I see the Amish people much as I see other herd mentality religious groups. No, the Amish don't talk to 'god' on two way radios but to me they are no different than those that do.

While I will agree with you on that matter that they mostly talk of agriculture etc.it really has no bearing on the original topic at hand which happens to be 'them not praying for death' but FORGIVING and attending the very bastards funeral that shot and killed young school girls execution style. It has not yet been determined if he sexually molested any of them at this point, but suffice to say I believe it went down as the media says:

He was planning it, and then the cops showed up. He got antsy and started firing then turning the gun on himself. COWARD that he was.

I don't believe in the Amish peoples 'god' but those kids did not deserve what happened to them and nor do they deserve their ignorant parents and fellow community members to attend the funeral of their killer. If someone kills me? I want my loved ones to be SCORTCHED EARTH mad about it. I don't want them attending my killers funeral as a show of love and forgiveness. LOVE is out the door here. Forgiveness has lost it's ferver at this point.

They may be good farmers, but they are mentally ill individuals.


HORRIBLE and I cannot excuse this yellow bellied behavior.

They do have pitch forks no? I'd stab his dead corpse and use his mouth for a urinal. At this point 'this supposed god that they worship' would be erased and removed.

In that worthless book of theirs is this quote:

"vengeance is mine saith the lord".

When I'm viewing my dead child in a coffin killed by a fruit cake? (and I have personally done this with my own child) VENGEANCE becomes a show of my own. It's all mine baby! I don't need a god at this point. I need a gun or a blunt object. I am very, VERY lucky not to be in prison myself, because I will agree with one thing in that fairy tale book of theirs.....

EYE FOR AN EYE, TOOTH for a TOOTH (and this is my own add, corpse for a corpse).

Give me that other cheek...
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192869 - 10/09/06 01:47 AM Stupid, you don't know the meaning of the word!! [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
princeofdarkness Offline


Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 57
Loc: England
Quote:

There is enough stupidity in the world already.
Go do something productive, like die.




Fuck you ass hole, just because you are a CoS member does not make you any better than me, your just a guy with a label and obviously there is no freedom of speech within Satanism and when you do speak your mind you are told you are "stupid", no your stupid for not allowing my right of freedom of speech.

If your not careful Satanism will end up like Islam, riots when someone says something stupid, have you ever thought that my comments are probably what most were thinking? no because you are stupid.

I may as well add this little bit because I might get banned anyways, the subject of magic is a interesting as watching paint dry, I mean come on Satanists don't believe in a god but why magic? Magic leads to false hope, because that is exactly what it is, hey mum I put a curse on that guy you don't like, he is going to die very soon don't you worry, a couple of years past, nothing, but eventually he dies at the age of 89, hey my cursed worked mum, lets get back to reality shall we.

Hail me!
Hail free speech! (if it exists)

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#192870 - 10/09/06 01:52 AM Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: princeofdarkness]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
So many counts of stupidity for you in one thread, as I see it.

Quote:

Hail me!
Hail free speech! (if it exists)




It exists.
However, so does the "ignore user" button.

*Linguascelesta uses it*

Hail freedom of choice!

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#192871 - 10/09/06 01:55 AM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: Linguascelesta]
UmbraeNoctem Offline
Banned

Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 735
Loc: Barksdale AFB, Louisiana, USA
I'm a fan of another button at the bottom of a post.
_________________________
Forever Alive,
Umbrae Noctem
---

Alien Elite.
Test Everything. Believe Nothing.

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#192872 - 10/09/06 01:58 AM Re: Total Environment, anyone? [Re: Ygraine]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Thank you, Priestess.

The Amish may be odd, but I prefer them to many other types of aggressive and hypocritical religionists. Really, I bear them no ill will.

And, I am tired of the word "cult" being used so loosely all the time. The CoS has been called a cult. The Catholic Church has been called a cult. The Mormon Church has been called a cult. The Jehovah Witnesses have been called a cult. The Boy Scouts have been called a cult. (Not by anyone here, obviously.) It gets to the point where the word "cult" no longer has real or clear meaning. A religion or ideology can be unusual, incomprehensible, or strange without being a cult, and can even have quasi-cult-like or seemingly cult-like elements (meaning, elements of strong control or manipulation, I suppose) without being a full-blown cult. Most of the time, people would be a lot better off just keeping it simple, and saying, "I think X ideology is strange, and I don't agree with it."

(And mostly, I'm ranting about an idiot acquaintance who, a few days ago, announced that the Catholic Church was a cult. I absolutely wanted to deck him.)
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192873 - 10/09/06 02:03 AM Judging according to merit. [Re: TrojZyr]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
Quote:

The Amish may be odd, but I prefer them to many other types of aggressive and hypocritical religionists. Really, I bear them no ill will.




And, on a much lighter note than most of this heavy thread, they were an essential part of My favourite picture of the Colonel!

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#192874 - 10/09/06 02:12 AM Re: Some Things Just Have to be Said. [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
I luvs you, Porgy, er, Erohaz .

Fee, fie, fo, fack, I see a screename that's about to turn black.

In haiku form:

See angry primate
Sympathizes with creep
Deserves no fruit today.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192875 - 10/09/06 02:27 AM Re: Judging according to merit. [Re: Linguascelesta]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Pssh, those were Mennonites.

But, same difference .

And yes, that is the best picture of the Colonel, ever.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#192876 - 10/09/06 02:29 AM Mennonites [Re: TrojZyr]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
You are informative as ever.

Actually, I had in inkling they might not have been Amish, however, I know the file name of the photo in question in the Colonel's album identifies them as Amish, so figured I could say that and You would correct it

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#192877 - 10/09/06 02:31 AM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: Linguascelesta]
princeofdarkness Offline


Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 57
Loc: England
Quote:

It exists.




Bullshit!

Quote:

However, so does the "ignore user" button.




Good then use it, you are an asshole and so full of yourself it's unreal, bye bye.

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#192878 - 10/09/06 02:34 AM Re: Mennonites [Re: Linguascelesta]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Yeah, the Amish usually don't venture out into the big city, being against technology and proselytizing and such. The Mennonites are more diverse, so some of them are more loose and easy about mingling with us sinnin' folk.

If they ever do, I can put on a makeshift robot suit, you can be wrapped up in Ethernet cords, and some other folks can pretend like they're being viciously attacked by their Ipods and Blackberries, and ya'll can run around the Amish screaming, "Run for your lives, the technology's attacking!"
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#192879 - 10/09/06 03:18 AM Re: Total Environment, anyone? [Re: TrojZyr]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
I find the Amish to be rather pleasant folks really. We get a few families in the restaurant every now and again for dinner. They are the kindest, well mannered people I have encountered in a long time. Sure, they may be of a different belief and religion. I don't judge for religious status, regardless my opinion of said religion.

I have some acquaintances who also happen to be Christian(of a different degree). I don't agree with the beliefs(naturally), however they are nice people and I let it be.

If they want to forgive the man who did them wrong, that's their perrogative. We all know the Satanic perspective on how to treat an enemy. However, that is not the Amish way.

It is only when someone treads on my religious choices that I take offense. However, I simply keep that information to myself and all is well for it. Only a few of my close friends know of my affiliations. That is partly due to the fact that they have been inside my apartment, which is rather Satanically decorated. *Looks at his Satanic Rituals sitting at the computer desk*

Amish people are always welcome at my restaurant.

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#192880 - 10/09/06 03:28 AM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: princeofdarkness]
Neko Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 798
Quote:

you are an asshole and so full of yourself it's unreal, bye bye.




Oh the irony!



*hits the ignore button*
_________________________
I am a Vampire.

The Temple | The Elite

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#192881 - 10/09/06 06:08 AM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
DevilsFoodCake Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/09/06
Posts: 440
Loc: Redwood Coast
Maybe the Mother had initial feelings of wanting the Murderer to die a thousand deaths, but I imagine it was brainwashed out of her by the community at large. If it were my child that was killed, the murderer would certainly get a fitting justice. But I can not apply my values to someone elses situation. In my opinion the Amish way of life and religion is stupid. For the Amish people to act like morons in their way of thinking is absolutely no surprise. If it was a Satanist child that was killed at the parent turned the other cheek, yeah then I may be perplexed, enraged or otherwise put out.
_________________________
Hail Satan!

Minds are like parachutes, they work best when open.

With very few absolute truths in the world know this; wherever you go, there you are.

Satanism is not clothing to be worn,
It is within you when you are born.

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#192882 - 10/09/06 06:18 AM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: Neko]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
It's apparent that this got ugly real quick. I apologize but certainly cannot keep the wandering loon from responding to my post.

Someone made mention of 'the other button' at the bottom of a post. Good idea.

Now, back to the Amish:

I don't have a problem with these people on an individual basis, I must reiterate this. I wouldn't hurt an Amish person or ignore their conversation or even not sit down to have dinner with one. I DO however, have a problem with not just understanding but with accepting the act that THIS Mennonite (it's been pointed out to me within this thread) community has just partaken in.

I really don't care what or who someone is affiliated with (as far as religion is concerned) it's the act of forgiveness and showing up at the man's funeral that bothers me be you Baptist, Catholic, or wearing a black brimmed hat and plain clothes.

This is the whole message I am trying to convey. I don't care who you are, who you worship or what label you may hold title of. I DO care about acts that appear quite mentally unstable.

Of course, I could be biased. I'll admit that after what has happened in my own life but I'm sorry I just don't believe the turn the other cheek verse applies in cases such as this. This isn't just turning the other cheek, It is far more than that when you attend the funeral of your childs killer. It's turning around, bending over and passing along the KY Jelly. A quality that I do not admire in anyone.

If there were a god, (there isn't) and if that book were not another fairy tale/bedtime story (it is) I would like to think that when this book was being penned and the writers of the book said 'turn the other cheek' that they didn't mean those of your backside.

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#192883 - 10/09/06 06:19 AM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: princeofdarkness]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Of course you will be banned!

You are a shit-disturber who believes being antisocial and mean has some meaning beyond being antisocial and mean.

You claim not to be a Satanist, but spend quite a bit of time trying to prove to Satanists how "evil" you are. Your ilk stopped having any meaning around 1989.

Free speech doesn't exist here, you idiot. There are only about 1000 posts clearly stating that this is a private message board---but then that might require you reading instead of just pounding the keyboard.

Be half a man and leave on your own----it would be the only way to be any sort of a trendsetter rather than the boring stereotype you currently represent.

It may come as a shock to you but you are unique as a blade of grass. The world is full of rude, mean, unappealing people who assume their mental illness is religion in disguise. Well, this religion won't buy it, and the people who post here know the ending to this movie already.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#192884 - 10/09/06 06:27 AM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: Evil_Eve]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
I think most of us feel that all "traditional" religions are crazy---its part of the reason we're Satanists! I hardly think the Amish are anymore crazy than the rest!

Quote:

really don't care what or who someone is affiliated with (as far as religion is concerned) it's the act of forgiveness and showing up at the man's funeral that bothers me be you Baptist, Catholic, or wearing a black brimmed hat and plain clothes.

This is the whole message I am trying to convey. I don't care who you are, who you worship or what label you may hold title of. I DO care about acts that appear quite mentally unstable.






yes, but it wasn't your child's funeral, or your fsmily member who commited the crime. Crazy? Sure! Crazier than a hundred other Christian beliefs or institutions? Not hardly. Crazy enough to hurt/jeopardize/interfere with you? Not even a little.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#192885 - 10/09/06 06:43 AM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: Ygraine]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

I think most of us feel that all "traditional" religions are crazy---its part of the reason we're Satanists! I hardly think the Amish are anymore crazy than the rest!

Quote:

really don't care what or who someone is affiliated with (as far as religion is concerned) it's the act of forgiveness and showing up at the man's funeral that bothers me be you Baptist, Catholic, or wearing a black brimmed hat and plain clothes.

This is the whole message I am trying to convey. I don't care who you are, who you worship or what label you may hold title of. I DO care about acts that appear quite mentally unstable.






yes, but it wasn't your child's funeral, or your fsmily member who commited the crime. Crazy? Sure! Crazier than a hundred other Christian beliefs or institutions? Not hardly. Crazy enough to hurt/jeopardize/interfere with you? Not even a little.

Y~




Indeed Priestess. It was not my child's funeral you are correct. It does however pain me to have been to one of these funerals and then to see one headlined on CNN with the whole 'awww look at these poor poor wounded people with forgiveness and love in their hearts'. This bothers me. The act it's self bothers me.

Is it enough to jeopardize/interfere with me? Not really. Does it hurt me? As a mother who lost her only child watches people attend the funeral of children who were shot execution style toting 'forgiveness' with them, then my answer would be yes, yes it does slightly sting.

Good insight however. No, My life is not jeopardized or interfered with as a result of what has happened in PA.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


Top
#192886 - 10/09/06 06:59 AM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: Evil_Eve]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Religion, at its best, gives us answers to life's questions.

Quote:

Indeed Priestess. It was not my child's funeral you are correct. It does however pain me to have been to one of these funerals and then to see one headlined on CNN with the whole 'awww look at these poor poor wounded people with forgiveness and love in their hearts'. This bothers me. The act it's self bothers me.

Is it enough to jeopardize/interfere with me? Not really. Does it hurt me? As a mother who lost her only child watches people attend the funeral of children who were shot execution style toting 'forgiveness' with them, then my answer would be yes, yes it does slightly sting.

Good insight however. No, My life is not jeopardized or interfered with as a result of what has happened in PA.




Our religion reminds us:

Do not complain about that which you willingly subject yourself to.


Walk away from the TV---sometimes you just have to. I'm anews junkie, and often have to remind myself that I don't have to endure--just turn it off.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#192887 - 10/09/06 07:07 AM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: Ygraine]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Religion, at its best, gives us answers to life's questions.

Quote:

Indeed Priestess. It was not my child's funeral you are correct. It does however pain me to have been to one of these funerals and then to see one headlined on CNN with the whole 'awww look at these poor poor wounded people with forgiveness and love in their hearts'. This bothers me. The act it's self bothers me.

Is it enough to jeopardize/interfere with me? Not really. Does it hurt me? As a mother who lost her only child watches people attend the funeral of children who were shot execution style toting 'forgiveness' with them, then my answer would be yes, yes it does slightly sting.

Good insight however. No, My life is not jeopardized or interfered with as a result of what has happened in PA.




Our religion reminds us:

Do not complain about that which you willingly subject yourself to.


Walk away from the TV---sometimes you just have to. I'm anews junkie, and often have to remind myself that I don't have to endure--just turn it off.

Y~




Once again sound advice from you Priestess. I appreciate your insight as well as everyone else who has contributed to this thread (minus one certain individual mind you)

Incidentally, I killed my Television last night.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


Top
#192888 - 10/09/06 12:27 PM Total Environment, Total Life. [Re: Ygraine]
LightSnake Offline


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 49
Quote:

[...]I am shocked that so many of the posters on this thread don't admire the fact that the Amish have done precisely what we want! They have created a complete total environment replete with a shared philosophy and aesthetic.




I've been a bit more intrigued with some other aspects that an anthropologist brought to light, after living in a Pennsylvania Amish community for a year. The sense of the flow of time, and it's useage in their life seemed, perhaps, very unique and enviable.

The anthoplogist, (whose name I unfortunately can't recall at the moment) noted that:

--They literally work from sunup to sundown, from the first waking moment to the last.
--Yet, they are never in a hurry at all. The work is at a terribly leasurely pace, with plently of time and ease to talk with each other about anything while doing it.
--They seem to be doing it all as exactly what they want to be doing with their time. The anthropologist was talking with the women about how difficult it can be when your work doesn't match up with the hobbies/activities you have in one's precious free-hours; she often feels that way herself. The ladies said, yes, that is an awful feeling, but fortunately we don't have that much, in our way of getting on...

So imagine...
What do you do? --I work on my Total Environment.
What do you do evenings? --I work on my Total Environment.
What do you do for fun? --I work on my Total Environment.

--LightSnake
_________________________
PARADISE NOW!

--Camille Paglia

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#192889 - 10/09/06 12:48 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Ygraine]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
>> In no way do the Amish qualify as a cult. They are not a first generation religion where members have literal contact with a charismatic founder (ie. the Branch Davidians, or Jim Jones.) They do not proselytize. They do not tithe, other than community projects. Furthermore the minute you call someone a "cultist" you are excusing their personal behaviour, and laying blame on thought rather than deed. <<

It is still a religious cult that holds its members in unnatural shackles. And unfortunately for their children they do proselytize. It is in fact amongst the worst religious cults that are guilty of child abuse of the worst kind, subjecting them to severe mental cruelty.

Surley a Total Environment from a Satanic perspective is one that is created by an individual for the purpose of providing personally agreeable surroundings.

The Amish community is created around outdated old testament biblical stipulations.

They deny all fleshly pleasures and even laughter is seen as a wordly sin.

They don't need physical contact with a charismatic leader. That is not at all the basis on which we can define a cult. Just like any branch of Christianity they believe their leader exists (Jesus).

And actually each of their communities have "elders" who rule with a "rod of iron" from laws drawn from their interpretation of Christian discipline.

Nah, this is one of the cruelist dictatoral cults in the world.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#192890 - 10/09/06 12:56 PM Re: Rioting when someone says something stupid? Nah. [Re: Evil_Eve]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Just to clarify, what Lingua and I were talking about differs from what we're discussing here. Lingua, some other folks, and I got to hear some Mennonites sing on Hollywood Boulevard this summer as we were just toodling along. It was an inside joke.

This funeral case deals with the Amish, so you were correct before.

Sorry to be confusing.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192891 - 10/09/06 01:09 PM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
JSBlack Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 11/27/05
Posts: 594
Loc: South Wales
If anyone hurt someone I loved then I'd NEVER forgive them. Forgiveness is a cop-out for those who are too weak to fight or just can't be bothered with the fuss of it all.

I'd dig his body up and pay some 'respect' of my own, I'd definitely want his head or whats left of it.

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#192892 - 10/09/06 03:01 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Quote:

It is still a religious cult that holds its members in unnatural shackles. And unfortunately for their children they do proselytize. It is in fact amongst the worst religious cults that are guilty of child abuse of the worst kind, subjecting them to severe mental cruelty.





I disagree.

It is a religion. A Spritual Religion. I may believe that ALL spiritual religions are detrimental, irresponsible, and chock full of the mentally infirm, but the term "cult", used in that sort of National Enquirer way, is neither scientific or sociological. To paraphrase: A cult is a religion we don't like.

Please document the severe mental child abuse of which you write.

Please don't try to sell the "they teach dependence on God and that is severe mental child abuse" notion. Every parent is both guilty of and responsible for teaching their children what they view to be correct. Plenty of children are force fed every kind of horseshit and opt for a more rational approach upon reaching adulthood. That is nature. We of all people know that those who don't get it, can't--regardless of upbringing.

Quote:

Surley a Total Environment from a Satanic perspective is one that is created by an individual for the purpose of providing personally agreeable surroundings.

The Amish community is created around outdated old testament biblical stipulations.





Yes, our version of a total environment is as you say, but they have created theirs. I was hardly suggesting a Satanic commune. I was saying that doing things your own way, and minding your own business are attributes not often displayed by traditonal religions.

Quote:

The Amish community is created around outdated old testament biblical stipulations.

They deny all fleshly pleasures and even laughter is seen as a wordly sin.





Their choice.
Why do you care...is there an Amish chick you want to fuck?
I've seen far too many laughing Amish kids to buy that.

Quote:

They don't need physical contact with a charismatic leader. That is not at all the basis on which we can define a cult. Just like any branch of Christianity they believe their leader exists (Jesus).





They do if you want to use the word cult in an academic fashion. If you wish to use it strictly as a derogatory I suppose, again, it can be defined as anything we don't like.

Quote:

And actually each of their communities have "elders" who rule with a "rod of iron" from laws drawn from their interpretation of Christian discipline.

Nah, this is one of the cruelist dictatoral cults in the world.




And here in the Colonies we figure once someone is an adult they can get up and leave. Unless we suddenly support the victim mentality and excuse adult behaviour based on how one was reared (which sets a precedence where no one is responsible for any-fucking-thing), we should mind our own business.

Now, I am pretty unclear as how I've become an apologist for the Amish. Maybe spending a good deal of time with Quakers and some Amish has made me aware of how utterly unoffensive they are. Do I think they are sick? Sure! But I think anyone who worships a God at all is sick. I'd be lost without a straightening iron and a cell phone, so I sure don't get the Luddite thing.....but, I see people fuck with people all day long. I watch fundamentalism in all forms reaching out beyond their cultural barriers causing no end of shit.

The people who remove themselves and refuse to play the game get my vote for best possible neighbors.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#192893 - 10/09/06 03:14 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Ygraine]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
Well, I have no desire to try and change your mind.

I define Christianity as a cult full stop.

But you can view it as you choose also.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#192894 - 10/09/06 03:27 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
JSBlack Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 11/27/05
Posts: 594
Loc: South Wales
Quote:

Well, I define Christianity as a cult full stop.




I think the 'L' in cult should be substituted with a 'N' and then we're getting somewhere close.

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#192895 - 10/09/06 03:35 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: JSBlack]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6130
Loc: In transit
Christianity under new title?
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

Up where the smoke is all billered and curled
'Tween pavement and stars is the chimney sweep world
When there's 'ardly no day nor 'ardly no night
There's things 'alf in shadow and 'alfway in light" ~ The New Christy Minstrels

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#192896 - 10/09/06 05:52 PM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Chess]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3961
Loc: The Deep South
Thanks for the link. That was a very interesting read.

I was another one under the mistaken impresion that the Amish just rejected everything modern. Now I see they have some set of rules and would acept some technology as long as it will not conflict with their way of life.

They still look like loonies to me, but now I see there is some system in their madness.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#192897 - 10/09/06 06:07 PM Re: Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? [Re: Evil_Eve]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3961
Loc: The Deep South
I find it ridiculous too. But of course, it fits the Amish character perfectly.

They preach unconditional forgiveness and they are showing it by assisting to the funeral of the killer. They are acting according with their beliefs. Doing otherwise would make them hypocrites.

Personally, I would never forgive such a person. But then again, I dont believe in forgiveness.

No, my question is What is really going on in the mind of those who lost a child to that maniac? Is their forgiveness real or just acted? Deep inside the mind of one of those parents, is there a little flame of hatred, even when he externally wont show it. Is he thinking Why God did this to us? as he walks to the funeral?

Its very hard to me to put myself in the shoes of an Amish person, since their entire culture is alien to me. They are basically people who still live in the 17 century. They have lived for generations in that way and they are educated like that since birth.

But perhaps even such an upbringing cannot completely kill the little beast that lives inside every man.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#192898 - 10/09/06 07:49 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
redheadgrl Offline


Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 273
I wouldn't go so far as to call the Amish a cult but I know that they make it extremely difficult to leave the faith-I think of it as the entanglement theory, to borrow and distort the definition from quantum. A bunch of seemingly random elements at first glance which upon further investigation add up to entanglement.

If you are 16, with what amounts to a fourth grade education-what options do you have? Everyone you know is Amish, your entire support system is Amish and your education is very limited so branching out on your own is nearly impossible.

The entanglement theory is weaved in advertising and religions and is notoriously successful.

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#192899 - 10/09/06 08:14 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: redheadgrl]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

I wouldn't go so far as to call the Amish a cult but I know that they make it extremely difficult to leave the faith-I think of it as the entanglement theory, to borrow and distort the definition from quantum. A bunch of seemingly random elements at first glance which upon further investigation add up to entanglement.

If you are 16, with what amounts to a fourth grade education-what options do you have? Everyone you know is Amish, your entire support system is Amish and your education is very limited so branching out on your own is nearly impossible.

The entanglement theory is weaved in advertising and religions and is notoriously successful.




You bring up one very good point and this point being:

Yes, where does a teenager run to when he/she has been raised in a very controlled enviornment? What skills aside from farming, quilting or pie baking will help them become productive citizens outside of their controlled community?

I never really thought about this to great extent, but you are correct. I am reminded of the corny movie 'King Pin' and how out of place the Amish man was outside of those walls that had controlled and seemingly enslaved him.

In this such movie, he had someone (all be it Woody Harrelson) to protect him and watch out over him in this strange new world he was discovering.

What about that teenager who just doesn't feel things are right and wants to leave? WHERE does that teenager go? Certainly he/she won't have much money if any to speak of and I feel that it would be a very hard thing for them to overcome (living in our world) after being subjected to the life they have always lived seperate from ours.

Here is something that gets a bit under my skin:'


If you want to be seperate? Fine. So be it. Light your lantern, plow the field, churn the butter etc. etc. etc. BUT ARE YOU SEPERATE from our world?

Do they not sell us their wares? Granted, we don't have to buy them but nonetheless they do sell them on the roadside and even in their own shops that they open up to the 'evil outside sinners' who are going to hell.

Honestly, where is the logic here? They were raised in such a community and we in ours. So...... we go to hell because we weren't 'fortunate' enough to be born and raised within their walls?

No logic whatsover.

I haven't looked into it, but I do so wonder that if I were so inclined to join their quiet community (would I be welcomed with open arms)? Would every Jebbadiaha, Micah and John help me raise a barn? Would the woman folk cook me a feast? Most likely not.

Now, the argument will come up that even we the Satanist will not welcome just anyone into our community but we are a different breed. We have not seperated ourselves from society, it is close minded people in our society that seperate themselves as from us as far as they can get. (UNLESS that is, to turn a quick buck ie. the religious churches in our society who would go BROKE if not for their scapegoat 'Satan'.)

Good for them. I don't need them to define me with their acceptance in any way shape or form. The further they are away from me the better.

Back to my original point after all my rambling is that when do you call them the Amish seperate from us when they do and are making money from us? It's almost like the whole seperation of church and state (which I FULLY support). If you want to be seperate then fine! Seperate yourself. Don't try to make a fast buck with one of your Cherry Turnovers and call yourself self sufficient and seperate.

I do feel for those kids.

I read an article where an Amish boy was being punished for 'skate boarding' this was forbidden in his particular sect as it was seen as a secular activity.

He even went so far as to paint on the side of a barn these words:

"Skate Or Die Sirs". I commend that! I wonder if he still resides in his peaceful town? Due to finances and the strict overtones of the religion he was raised in, I am sure he is there with a wife named Rachel and 10 children.

Self expression is frowned upon and that to me is abuse. When a little girl cannot own a doll that has a face on it? I think that's a bit extreme and very NOT normal.

In any event, thank you for bringing up that point. Where does one go with a very limited education and almost NO knowledge on how to function in the outside world?

Prisoners who have been in the joint and finally get out after many years end up committing another crime just to get thrown back into prison because they find that they cannot function in our society as they have been seperated from it for too long.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192900 - 10/09/06 08:25 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: redheadgrl]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:

If you are 16, with what amounts to a fourth grade education-what options do you have?




Simply for the sake of clarification and nothing more, the Amish education their children through the eighth grade. Albeit, not adequate for making a go of it alone in an alien society, but still a great deal better than fourth grade.

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#192901 - 10/09/06 08:33 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Quote:

If you are 16, with what amounts to a fourth grade education-what options do you have?




Simply for the sake of clarification and nothing more, the Amish education their children through the eighth grade. Albeit, not adequate for making a go of it alone in an alien society, but still a great deal better than fourth grade.




It's nice for you to point that out. My question would be this:

What level of education are they truly receiving? What curriculum are they receiving and 'who' is the teacher and what is the history/extent of his or her own education?

Are you referring to the 8th grade education of that of public schools or that of home schools or Xtian schools? I have noted that many Xtian schools are at a higher level of learning and are far more advanced than that of those children who attend our public school systems.

You are correct however, an 8th grade education isn't much. Better than that of a 4th grade education. Still I feel it's not enough to really help one prosper and thrive (or even survive) in our modern and very technological society.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192902 - 10/09/06 08:44 PM Re: Stupid, you don't know the meaning of the word!! [Re: princeofdarkness]
SilverHammer Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 1758
Loc: Connecticut
(I SHOULD be doing something productive right now, but...)


"You stoopitt!"

"Naw, YOU stoopit!"

"No, YOU stoopit!"

"Well...

"Uh...uh...Ya know what?

"Uh...

"YOU STOOPIT!"




Edited by Dementagram (10/09/06 08:45 PM)
_________________________
Some boys grow up into men who can look at themselves in the mirror in the morning, and others just go along with the crowd, forgetting after a while that they ever had a choice. ---Roger Ebert

www.myspace.com/savagegod

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#192903 - 10/09/06 09:04 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
redheadgrl Offline


Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 273
Thanks Tiberia.

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#192904 - 10/09/06 09:07 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Evil_Eve]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:

What level of education are they truly receiving? What curriculum are they receiving and 'who' is the teacher and what is the history/extent of his or her own education?




That is a question that varies greatly from school to school, Amish or not. My question to you is why do you care? If they eventually come to the realization that they are "not like most", they will eventually break free of the constraints put upon them and pursue their goals. What, when, and how that transpires, is not my concern. If you want to know more about the Amish, check wikipedia.


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#192905 - 10/09/06 09:12 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: redheadgrl]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
You're welcome, redheadgrl. It wasn't of major importance, but I can be a stickler for details.

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#192906 - 10/09/06 09:14 PM Re: Mennonites [Re: TrojZyr]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
They were Mennonites, and we even got their CD. Good stuff.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#192907 - 10/09/06 09:15 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Evil_Eve]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Quote:

He even went so far as to paint on the side of a barn these words:

"Skate Or Die Sirs". I commend that!




He should have been arrested for vandalism.
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#192908 - 10/09/06 09:19 PM Re: Mennonites [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Aha! I have that CD around somewhere, too.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192909 - 10/09/06 10:27 PM Re: Praying for their deaths? [Re: Evil_Eve]
Sideshowtuper Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 464
Loc: NY, USA
Quote:

Quote:

Meeting as many Amish as I have, I would never believe they would pray for somebody to die. They don't have an active intrest in the outside world. Their only concern for outsiders is if they can borrow equipment from you (and they often give you a few pies or loaves of bread for the favor) or sell you baked goods.

The topics they discuss are more along the lines of agriculture.




I too have met many Amish people in both PA, and in IN. Plain common folk who really don't bother anyone. I have no problem with this, I do have a problem with their philosophy on not only life but that of death and 'forgiveness'. I see the Amish people much as I see other herd mentality religious groups. No, the Amish don't talk to 'god' on two way radios but to me they are no different than those that do.

While I will agree with you on that matter that they mostly talk of agriculture etc.it really has no bearing on the original topic at hand which happens to be 'them not praying for death' but FORGIVING and attending the very bastards funeral that shot and killed young school girls execution style. It has not yet been determined if he sexually molested any of them at this point, but suffice to say I believe it went down as the media says:

He was planning it, and then the cops showed up. He got antsy and started firing then turning the gun on himself. COWARD that he was.

I don't believe in the Amish peoples 'god' but those kids did not deserve what happened to them and nor do they deserve their ignorant parents and fellow community members to attend the funeral of their killer. If someone kills me? I want my loved ones to be SCORTCHED EARTH mad about it. I don't want them attending my killers funeral as a show of love and forgiveness. LOVE is out the door here. Forgiveness has lost it's ferver at this point.

They may be good farmers, but they are mentally ill individuals.


HORRIBLE and I cannot excuse this yellow bellied behavior.

They do have pitch forks no? I'd stab his dead corpse and use his mouth for a urinal. At this point 'this supposed god that they worship' would be erased and removed.

In that worthless book of theirs is this quote:

"vengeance is mine saith the lord".

When I'm viewing my dead child in a coffin killed by a fruit cake? (and I have personally done this with my own child) VENGEANCE becomes a show of my own. It's all mine baby! I don't need a god at this point. I need a gun or a blunt object. I am very, VERY lucky not to be in prison myself, because I will agree with one thing in that fairy tale book of theirs.....

EYE FOR AN EYE, TOOTH for a TOOTH (and this is my own add, corpse for a corpse).

Give me that other cheek...




That is the difference between them and us. Satanists are a whole other breed. For us forgiveness isn't an obligation, so when we can forgive it's genuine.

Perhaps their forgiveness is real or they may have a lot of pent up rage inside, I don't know. Different people react differently based on "How they are wired".
_________________________
"All animals except man know that the principal business of life is to enjoy it."
- Samuel Butler


Sideshow Tuper on Undercroft

13 Moons Occult Supplies

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#192910 - 10/10/06 01:28 AM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
>> they will eventually break free of the constraints put upon them and pursue their goals. <<

True. But just as a sidenote, imagine the the extent of psychological damage inflicted by the mind control they exercise over the children from birth.

This seemingly gentle and passive (sect, cult wahatever) is actually the most insidious and extreme of Christian fundamentalist groups in the world. The psychology employed makes it nigh on impossible for a child raised in it to break free of.

It is a cult.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#192911 - 10/10/06 01:31 AM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Quote:

What level of education are they truly receiving? What curriculum are they receiving and 'who' is the teacher and what is the history/extent of his or her own education?




Amish or not. My question to you is why do you care?






This was not a retort, but merely a question. I question everything. It doesn't mean that the topic at hand is changing my life or views. I have always by nature been an individual who questions everything which I think is an admirable trait.

I have no inclination to 'study' the Amish as it is something that in the end (all though I will know more about them) will not do anything to change my views on this subject, nor will it glorify myself in any way.

Still, it is an interesting subject matter when you weigh in the factor of 'forgiveness'. I as a Satanist CAN and have forgiven people over various slights but the attending of this man's funeral really had me questioning not only their religion but their motives.

In the end, nothing has really changed but I do have a better understanding of how other Satanist feel on the subject and it's been quite interesting to follow and read the responses in this thread.

HS!
Eve
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


Top
#192912 - 10/10/06 05:32 AM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Evil_Eve]
DamnedLucky Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/03/06
Posts: 371
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Quote:

Yes, where does a teenager run to when he/she has been raised in a very controlled enviornment? What skills aside from farming, quilting or pie baking will help them become productive citizens outside of their controlled community?




Open a pie shop. I mean that seriously. Or find someone with an apple orchard who needs farm helpers. I'm not condoning Amish childrearing practices, but I doubt these kids are any worse off than kids born with physical or mental handicaps.

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#192913 - 10/10/06 09:52 AM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
I definitely share your feelings in regard to the strict indoctrination of their children. With the exception of a few rare cases, not being exposed to anything else for the first 16 years of life must do extensive damage on the psyche, as it is no different than locking them in a cage.

Quote:

This seemingly gentle and passive (sect, cult wahatever) is actually the most insidious and extreme of Christian fundamentalist groups in the world.




Being that the term "cult" has so many different meanings today, I can see how it may apply here in a somewhat traditional sense. Although there is no tangible central charismatic figure, one could certainly say in this case that it is their god that plays that part.

The only tolerable thing I can see is that they don't try to inflict their personal beliefs/values into government policy as the evangelicals and catholics do. Well that, and I hear they make some really nice quilts.

What goes, "Clip....clop....clip....clop....clip....clop....bang-bang-bang-clip-clop-clip-clop-clip-clop"?

An Amish drive by shooting. .....

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#192914 - 10/10/06 10:53 AM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Evil_Eve]
Willow_NightEyes Offline


Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 180
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:

Are you referring to the 8th grade education of that of public schools or that of home schools or Xtian schools?




My mom homeschools my sister and has looked into many curriculums from many sources. She has told me that the Amish grade 8 (at least in canada here) is equivilant in reading, writting, & maths to a grade 11 or 12 public education with a change of focus towards more practical applications. (For instance a Sin-wave isn't going to do you any good to figure out your crop yeild or household budget) They can get more into even their shorter school years because there's less "extra" subjects such as music, shop, or home-ec as these things are being taught during everyday life by their parents.

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#192915 - 10/10/06 01:27 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
I, too, dislike it when children are indoctrinated, or are socialized in ways that do them a disservice and make their world smaller than it has to be.

Though, I'm much, much angrier at fundamentalist Christians who live in our world, but teach their children backward, asinine lessons and ideas that essentially trap them in a liminal state, a "nowhere land." At least the Amish occupy a straightforward, enclosed, total environment world, and teach their children principles for actually getting along in that environment.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192916 - 10/10/06 01:58 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

At least the Amish occupy a straightforward, enclosed, total environment world, and teach their children principles for actually getting along in that environment




Actually they don't. They are NOT enclosed. They have business establisments (I have been to several) and they come into the 'sinners' community to sell their wares.

Could they make it without our money? It's very probable. Do they rely on just themselves financially? NO.

I'm going to have to go to UVRAYS side on this in that they (what they are mentally doing to their children) is a VERY cultish activity.

Someone mentioned that these children could escape and go open a 'pie shop'.

Sure. And with what financial footing would they start this endevour? The 3.00 USD that they have in their pocket?

Let's get serious, the chances of any of these children venturing off on their own and 'making it' in our modern society is not likely. Their elders have made sure of that.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192917 - 10/10/06 02:10 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
The definition of a cult is an extremely interesting one. It depends on
1) who you are asking
2) the geographic location
that means in general that in the United States Catholicism is not considered a cult but in India it would be.
The definition of a cult as I know it is --"a religious group with no political power". The definition changes with geographics, social climate, and the person/people doing the defining.

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#192918 - 10/10/06 02:50 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Evil_Eve]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:

Someone mentioned that these children could escape and go open a 'pie shop'.

Sure. And with what financial footing would they start this endevour? The 3.00 USD that they have in their pocket?




Maybe they could get some advice from Martha Stewart.

I would also like to say, that refusing to patronize a business based solely on my low opinion of their religious inclinations would make shopping very difficult, if not down right impossible. If the pie, quilt, rocking chair, etc. is a quality product, I couldn't care less who made/sells it.


Edited by Tiberia (10/10/06 03:09 PM)

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#192919 - 10/10/06 02:52 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: DickSteele]
DamnedLucky Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/03/06
Posts: 371
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Here's some pretty good criteria:

* Often expresses faith in an all-powerful leader
* Agressive, often dishonest proselytization
* Rigid institutional control over all aspects of a member's existence
* Great enthusiasm of members
* Unique, transformational experiences of members

source: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/religion/blfaq_religion_cultdef.htm

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#192920 - 10/10/06 03:01 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:

At least the Amish occupy a straightforward, enclosed, total environment world, and teach their children principles for actually getting along in that environment.




I absolutely agree with that. And as I said, if any one of the children ultimately decides they want a different life, they are allowed to do so. Of course they must give up their family, friends, and home, but that isn't any more than a lot of Satanists give up when they come out to their families.

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#192921 - 10/10/06 06:14 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
Quote:

Though, I'm much, much angrier at fundamentalist Christians who live in our world, but teach their children backward, asinine lessons and ideas that essentially trap them in a liminal state, a "nowhere land." At least the Amish occupy a straightforward, enclosed, total environment world, and teach their children principles for actually getting along in that environment.





Bingo!
_________________________
Hell of All Hells

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#192922 - 10/10/06 06:43 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Quote:

Someone mentioned that these children could escape and go open a 'pie shop'.

Sure. And with what financial footing would they start this endevour? The 3.00 USD that they have in their pocket?




Maybe they could get some advice from Martha Stewart.

I would also like to say, that refusing to patronize a business based solely on my low opinion of their religious inclinations would make shopping very difficult, if not down right impossible. If the pie, quilt, rocking chair, etc. is a quality product, I couldn't care less who made/sells it.




I couldn't agree more. The Amish make damned good furniture as well as baked goods/ cheese/ etc.

Martha Stuart quite frankly scares me to death. She does however do wonders with window treatments.

My husband and I stayed at an Amish Bed and Breakfast in Indiana years ago. It was.... a unique experience. I will buy their goods if they tickle my fancy.

My whole point was that they have no quams with taking 'sinners' money which does not make them self sufficient. They do rely on the help of outsiders ie. money.

They do make one hell of an apple fritter, I'll give them that much.

I actually own several pieces of furniture (including lamps) yes, the Amish make lamps they just don't use them) that I enjoy a great deal.

I have had friends visit my home and I am ammused as I watch their jaws drop to the floor.

I don't have spider webs or black throughout the house but yet that of pastel colors and many Amish items. No one would suspect me of being a Satanist (based on my household decor)

It's good to have secrets isn't it?
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192923 - 10/10/06 06:47 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
Quote:

The only tolerable thing I can see is that they don't try to inflict their personal beliefs/values into government policy as the evangelicals and catholics do.




This is also a very important point. They keep it in the family. The way they treat their children may be cultish, but it's not my concern.
_________________________
Hell of All Hells

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#192924 - 10/10/06 11:16 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
And, this is a slightly lame-o argument because I'm comparing apples to oranges, but to some degree, everyone has to figure out how to branch out from their upbringing and family and live in the "real world." Becoming independent is rarely easy or straightforward.

I tend to put Amish in the same category as, say, certain types of indigenous people. Their ways are primitive compared to ours, but they see themselves as preserving crucial traditions and keeping certain social problems and evils at bay, so of course you can predict how they're going to act and how they're going to socialize their kids. And, except in bizarre, unusual cases, they don't seem to out-and-out abuse their children or get them mixed up in strange movements, like Pentecostals and their ilk.

Though, I definitely think the Amish practice of shunning those who choose to leave the community is contemptible and irrational. Not like I can do anything to fix or influence that, though.

The only time I've really been irked at the Amish was when this particular Amish girl got raped by three of her brothers many years ago, and reported it to the police. The community was kinder and more forgiving towards her brothers than her in the end, primarily because she had involved the police, effectively airing the community's dirty laundry to everyone--and it was dirty laundry about S-E-X, to boot. Meanwhile, the boys asked for forgiveness from the deity and the community, and were technically forgiven therefore. That one really got on my nerves, and struck me as being truly unjust.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192925 - 10/10/06 11:22 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

And, this is a slightly lame-o argument because I'm comparing apples to oranges, but to some degree, everyone has to figure out how to branch out from their upbringing and family and live in the "real world." Becoming independent is rarely easy or straightforward.

I tend to put Amish in the same category as, say, certain types of indigenous people. Their ways are primitive compared to ours, but they see themselves as preserving crucial traditions and keeping certain social problems and evils at bay, so of course you can predict how they're going to act and how they're going to socialize their kids. And, except in bizarre, unusual cases, they don't seem to out-and-out abuse their children or get them mixed up in strange movements, like Pentecostals and their ilk.

Though, I definitely think their practice of shunning those who choose to leave the community is contemptible and irrational. Not like I can do anything to fix or influence that, though.

The only time I've really been irked at the Amish was when this particular Amish girl got raped by three of her brothers many years ago, and reported it to the police. The community was kinder and more forgiving towards her brothers than her in the end, primarily because she had involved the police, effectively airing the community's dirty laundry to everyone--and it was dirty laundry about S-E-X, to boot. Meanwhile, the boys asked for forgiveness from the deity and the community, and were technically forgiven therefore. That one really got on my nerves, and struck me as being truly unjust.




Yes, how dare she involve the outside world in this affair? How dare she, even though they can come into OUR world and make money and benefit from us. How dare she call 911.

This bothers me as well.

_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192926 - 10/10/06 11:32 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Evil_Eve]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Not only that, but the community didn't do a whole lot to punish the brothers. "Forgive and forget" seemed to be the plan of action there, and to my mind, that just leaves them room to do it again in the future.

The court handed down very light sentences, if I recall---probation, and/or laughably short prison sentences--because they didn't want to disrupt the community. Yeah, like having 3 brothers and possibly their stepfather raping relatives isn't a disruption already.

Now, if you really want to talk cults I hate, look no further than Warren Jeff's Mormon cult in Colorado City, Arizona. (Luckily, the FBI recently nailed Jeffs, so hopefully the cult will fall apart in time.) There's an evil, abusive group of nutters if I ever saw one. Girls as young as 10 can get married off to 50-year-old men, and sometimes learn who they're betrothed to only a day in advance! No movies, no music, no television. Boys and girls are required to dress modestly. Outsiders are bullied and chased out. And, when the sexual competition gets too intense, the community's male elders would occasionally eject male adolescents from the community for minor offenses. Kids who grow up there receive practically no education and practical skills, especially the females, so if they escape or are ostracized, they really have to fight for survival.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy186.html
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192927 - 10/10/06 11:41 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Not only that, but the community didn't do a whole lot to punish the brothers. "Forgive and forget" seemed to be the plan of action there, and to my mind, that just leaves them room to do it again in the future.

The court handed down very light sentences, if I recall---probation, and/or laughably short prison sentences--because they didn't want to disrupt the community. Yeah, like having 3 brothers and possibly their stepfather raping relatives isn't a disruption already.

Now, if you really want to talk cults I hate, look no further than Warren Jeff's Mormon cult in Colorado City, Arizona. (Luckily, the FBI recently nailed Jeffs, so hopefully the cult will fall apart in time.) There's an evil, abusive group of nutters if I ever saw one. Girls as young as 10 can get married off to 50-year-old men, and sometimes learn who they're betrothed to only a day in advance! No movies, no music, no television. Boys and girls are required to dress modestly. Outsiders are bullied and chased out. And, when the sexual competition gets too intense, the community's male elders would occasionally eject male adolescents from the community for minor offenses. Kids who grow up there receive practically no education and practical skills, especially the females, so if they escape or are ostracized, they really have to fight for survival.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy186.html




Amazing.

Of course they got off scott free. I am reminded of what I watched on CNN the other day about a new place being built in Utah I believe it was. I'll look it up to be sure. However, this is a LARGE LARGE place being built that would house the same type of individuals.

A place where it's okay to marry 10 year old girls etc. I see another Wakko in the works....
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192928 - 10/11/06 11:14 AM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:

And, this is a slightly lame-o argument because I'm comparing apples to oranges, but to some degree, everyone has to figure out how to branch out from their upbringing and family and live in the "real world." Becoming independent is rarely easy or straightforward.




I don't find that lame-o at all. In fact, that was the same point I was making. It doesn't matter how you are raised, if you are not of that mindset you will eventually break free. We even have Satanists that were raised in Muslim families, so anything is possible.

Quote:

The only time I've really been irked at the Amish was when this particular Amish girl got raped by three of her brothers many years ago, and reported it to the police.




This situation is truly disgusting, but sadly, it's not all that surprising.

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#192929 - 10/11/06 11:23 AM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:

Now, if you really want to talk cults I hate, look no further than Warren Jeff's Mormon cult in Colorado City, Arizona. (Luckily, the FBI recently nailed Jeffs, so hopefully the cult will fall apart in time.)




Ditto, and it was pretty funny how when they found him he had been up to just about everything he preached against.

I would also add to that list the Westboro Baptist people. Nearly everyone in this family is an attorney, and it has been reported that they have been known to incite violence upon themselves so they can sue for damages. Said damages are used to fund their "missions". Very icky people.

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#192930 - 10/11/06 11:59 AM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
I think it would be interesting to do a study or ethnography of those Westboro Baptist idiots, because everything they do is so bizarre, cruel, and exaggerated. If anyone embodies what it means to be a true shit-disturber, it's the Phelps family. Therefore, if there's any series of deaths that would bring me pure and utter joy, it's theirs.

Then we could go protest their funeral. How's them apples?
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#192931 - 10/11/06 12:41 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: TrojZyr]
Tiberia Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:

Then we could go protest their funeral. How's them apples?




How about a party to celebrate instead? We could dance on their graves to "Hava Nagilah" and "It's Raining Men" while shouting "Hail Satan".

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#192932 - 10/11/06 12:50 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Tiberia]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

Quote:

Then we could go protest their funeral. How's them apples?




How about a party to celebrate instead? We could dance on their graves to "Hava Nagilah" and "It's Raining Men" while shouting "Hail Satan".




I find this a splendid idea. The It's Raining Men is what won me over.

We could add Satan into the song like such:

"It's raining men....Hail Satan it's raining men..... Satan"!

I needed a good laugh today and call me easily amused but I did so laugh after viewing Tiberia's post.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#192933 - 10/11/06 04:25 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Every parent commits "mind control." Even the ones that raise their children secularly are doing so because the believe it is correct. It is an obligation to the children themselves---if you believe something is right, safe & healthy you would be remiss in your parental duties if you deprived your children of those beliefs. After all, no one subscribes to the religion they deem unecessary and unimportant.

I've got to admit I have an issue with the idea that raising one's child in one's faith is tantamount to abuse. Provided there is no physical or sexual abuse I fear the very notion of a religious thought police. I have heard this
Quote:

But just as a sidenote, imagine the the extent of psychological damage inflicted by the mind control they exercise over the children from birth.



said about Satanic parents more times than I can count.

It is easy, and almost always correct for a Satanist to look down upon other people---to feel (rightfully) superior, and knowledgable beyond the sheep we watch. It is also easy to be hypocritical when we neglect to remind ourselves about the alien part in alien elite.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#192934 - 10/11/06 04:42 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Ygraine]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
I respectfully disagree with you. Simple as that.

They may think it's right and proper to indoctrinate their kids, yes.

But they are wrong.

>> Every parent commits "mind control." <<

Commits?

Not every parent, no. And definitely not to the extreme that the Amish do.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#192935 - 10/11/06 06:27 PM Re: It Is A Cult. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Respect to you as well.

Yes, every parent does. We control our kids by telling them right and wrong as we see it. We sculpt their thinking by both example and teachings. Even if we totally avoid specifically teaching them things their minds are influenced.

I suppose if we gave birth, placed the kids in plastic bubbles, and only allowed their basest needs be fulfilled we could argue that they are free of our "mind control."

Indoctrination is another thing. It assumes someone is free of a belief and then is insidiously programmed by those who have power over them. When this is done for power and gain it is cultlike. When it is done because of the natural love a parent has for a child it is truly sad, misguided, and perpetuates all the other religions on Earth.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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