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#193779 - 10/12/06 11:33 AM SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE


This was a recent discussion between myself and someone who should know better:

___________________________________________

Infernal Greetings Magister Svengali,

I just wanted to point out a couple things about "LaVey's book "Satan Speaks"

LaVey wasn't anti-hedonistic -he did like to drink. He says on page 107 in Satan Speaks "Sound Retreat" ... "He must live as though there were no clocks, no calendars, and subsequently, no appointments to be met. He must withdraw himself from the affairs and measurements of men, and become as hedonistic as the staunchest moralist (or faddist) is not. It is humanity that will surely kill him if allowed"- LaVey

Also the introduction is by Reverend Marylin Manson who is quite open about his hedonistic lifestyle and excessive drug use.

What is your definition of hedonism and are you also anti- alcohol- tabacco- caffeine?

What's your view on the new craze with anti-depressants?? that drug epidemic has half of Americans HOOKED.

Hail Satan!

********

__________________________________________


My reply:

Hello ********,

"Hedonism" literally means regarding pleasure as a proper motive. The best explaination of what Dr. LaVey meant by this is probably his essay THE WORLD'S MOST POWERFUL RELIGION.

There are many sources of pleasure.

From the Satanic point of view, pleasure should be considered in contrast to self-destruction and compulsion.

It's really that simple.

I agree strongly with the passage you quote from Dr. LaVey, and I live by it. I think I have an appointment sometime next April, but I will probably postpone and reschedule that at least three times because I'll forget about it by then and it will creep up on me. I avoid obligations to other people like the plague, and live to live "free fall" in my own world, in my own time. But without self-medicating. I don't see that a neccesary or prerequisite.

Lets not equivocate on the "drug" issue. Anyone with an iota of intelligence knows there is an important difference in the effects of, say, Heroin, Acid, and say Pot.

Likewise, there is a substantial difference in the effects of, say Pot and Coffee.

For the record, I don't drink or smoke, even socially, because I don't like it. I do drink coffee on a daily basis.

In terms of psychological effect, I will concede that pot is not as bad as alcohol, but smoking it is as bad or worse for you than cigarrettes. Really, if all the people who have drinking problems sat at home and ate marijuana cookies or hash brownies, they and the world would be better off, but nothing that rational is going to happen in our lifetime.

Plus it is illegal, and in that grey area of "illegal but tolerated" just enough to insure that it is a common and widespread pretext for police intervention in peoples lives. I understand you are against systems of control very much. Why would you buy into an institution (drug counterculture) that was probably invented to be a reason to fuck with you?

Even if it were legal, it has decades of idiotic cultural baggage. Drug counterculture is the most mindless herd phenomenon since religion - why would any Satanist, or the Church of Satan for that matter, want to be associated with such a collective of idiotic losers?

....also, not to "quote scripture," but Dr. LaVey repeatedly expressed his contempt for these kinds of subcultures in no uncertain terms, assuming we both concede his opinion bears on matters pertinent to Satanism.

Marilyn Manson is definately not the brightest bulb in the pack. He says and does a lot of incredibly stupid things that contradict what Dr. LaVey was about. He has also publically backpeddled regarding his involvement with the Church of Satan (on the Bill O'Reilly show), which to me places him in the category of people who were siding up to Dr. LaVey for "noteriety by association" claiming to be all about the philosophy, yet disparaging Dr. LaVey's legacy after he passed away. If they were really so devoted to Dr. LaVey, they would not have shit on his memory. Personally I think his affiliation should be revoked.

But that flies over the head of anyone who blindly sucks up to people because they are "famous."

I think the trend toward "mood drugs" is disgusting, but I guess it keeps people showing up to work on time, and diverts them from confronting the existential horrors of their own meaningless existence that would otherwise drive them to overt self-destruction.

I'm all for confronting and training your inner demons, turning liabilities into advantages, instead of medicating into oblivion.

People who seek escape in mind-altering drugs should ask themselves why their predominant frame of mind is so shitty that they need to escape. Some people have no choice, they are damaged goods and are probably better off in self-medicated oblivion. Unfortunately they usually descend into rampant destructive compulsion that makes a disaster of the world around them.

There is a difference between being disfunctional and being "Alien" in the Satanic sense of the term. One is "unter", the latter is "uber", in relation to the common stream of human waste.

I am open to intelligent discussion/debate on these topics.

Hail Satan!

S.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#193780 - 10/12/06 11:55 AM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: Svengali]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Quote:

From the Satanic point of view, pleasure should be considered in contrast to self-destruction and compulsion.

It's really that simple.




Magister Svengali,
I have no debate with any of what you wrote. In fact the above quote should serve as the be all, end all of the discussion.
Hail Satan!
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#193781 - 10/12/06 12:43 PM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: Svengali]
RustySpring Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/04
Posts: 1109
Brilliant.

I couldn't think of a better reply.

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#193782 - 10/12/06 12:50 PM Mans...What ? [Re: Svengali]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
Quote:

Marilyn Manson is definately not the brightest bulb in the pack. He says and does a lot of incredibly stupid things that contradict what Dr. LaVey was about. He has also publically backpeddled regarding his involvement with the Church of Satan (on the Bill O'Reilly show), which to me places him in the category of people who were siding up to Dr. LaVey for "noteriety by association" claiming to be all about the philosophy, yet disparaging Dr. LaVey's legacy after he passed away. If they were really so devoted to Dr. LaVey, they would not have shit on his memory. Personally I think his affiliation should be revoked.




I don't want to start a debate on this, but this was obvious, since years, and I'll say this without caring about "Fans", that this man that I consider as a thief ( to explain would be long, but some know ), has been created the same way a boys band in reality shows would have been, in order to please the "pseudo goths market" by giving them the image of a SCAPEGOAT singing "don't like the drugs but the drugs like me".

Isn't it a concept about being a martyr ? Because here, it is about becoming a freak because "America and its Christianity, politic, pressure" and so on...Well this "message" is not truly walking hand in hand with the LaVey's statements at all.

This "I became that way because you all made me" is truly easy now...

-Then,this is how self-mutilated adolescent being "in league with Satan" will follow...F O L L O W .

-Then, this is how my grand mother ( even her ) showed me a people magazine and asked me :"Do you know these guys ?" ...Well oh surprise ( ) this was a picture of Manson absolutely fucked-up and close to it ( of course...) a Anton LaVey's one. The title ? > "a New priest for the Devil's work"... ... Well, not so funny.

Big record companies wanted to say "Bingo!", well they have, by finding all necessary tools they needed. And of course, they knew that they were going to make big sensations if the Church of Satan was used too. what they needed is the attractive name.

Are we going to speak about success, or are we going to speak about that new thing they had found once everyone knew the trick :" he is not fake, he is someone USING everything to reach his goals"... ... Same old thing... But I only see a puppet under drugs.


Edited by Assabrah (10/12/06 07:18 PM)
_________________________
Has left the board.

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#193783 - 10/12/06 03:45 PM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: Svengali]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
Your response is probably closer to my feelings on the subject than anything else you've written on it.

I still think the best anyone nailed it was Anton LaVey himself, who in The Satanic Witch wrote, "The effects of drugs upon the witch are only definable by the success shown by a witch outside her drug-oriented peer group."

While I'm not aware of Anton LaVey ever supporting the "Just Say No" position, he made his own opinions regarding drug use abundantly clear.

As for me, I'm all for letting people make their own choices, but I'm unlikely to be sympathetic when things don't pan out quite the way they thought.
_________________________
Everyone is special in their own way, and by "special" I mean the short-bus variety.

"Recognize the phrase 'national interest' as a synonym for 'self-interest' and you will find no moral obstacle that cannot be removed from the highway of ambition."
-Lewis Lapham

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill

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#193784 - 10/12/06 05:11 PM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: RustySpring]
Danny Mc. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2143
Loc: Taxationland
HAIL the Order of the Trapezoid! They are the guardians, with their Black Flame and tongues that cut deeper than any razor! HAIL SATAN!
_________________________
"To be born into this world a sentient, self-conscious and reasoning being, surrounded by inexhaustible glories in Nature, which we may comprehend, possess,enjoy; to be able to rise on the wings of a lofty imagination; to be able to get glimpses of the ideally perfect; to apprehend the Divine; it is to the development and enjoyment of these high powers that the young man is invited. How dare he refuse to qualify himself by the most perfect training of all his powers." Lyman J. Gage 1910


"Follow Me!", John M. (Delta).

"I've learned that you shouldn't compare yourself to others - they are more screwed up than you think." Something Magistra Isabel posted. laugh

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#193785 - 10/12/06 06:09 PM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: Svengali]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2333
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Simply brilliant.

Although I can't see any reason such a thing even needs to be discussed.

Drug use, regardless of the intent leads to deterioration of the life providing vessel, otherwise known as the human body. Isn't that reason enough to make this a non-issue to the reasonable and life-affirming Satanist?

Tap dancing for a loophole just seems ridiculous to me, the source notwithstanding.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#193786 - 10/12/06 06:24 PM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: Svengali]
evalUate Offline


Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Michigan
Magister Svengali:

You very eloquently hit the nail squarely on the head when you said, “I think the trend toward "mood drugs" is disgusting, but I guess it keeps people showing up to work on time, and diverts them from confronting the existential horrors of their own meaningless existence that would otherwise drive them to overt self-destruction.”

Since governments have shrewdly guided the herd to be “ambitious” uber-consumers (in the ‘keeping up with the Jones’ sense), their allies, the powerful drug companies, have set themselves up to compensate these same overworked, stressed-out masses with feel good drugs, so they may continue, anesthetized, slaving away for them. Just like religions, insurance companies and lawyers, they set up the problems, so they can provide the solutions (for a price).

The most Satanic people I have met have been ones that have the instinct to subtly use and apply the most potent indulges without succumbing to them.

Thank you once more for your straightforward insight, Magister!
HAIL SATAN!
-Nadine

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#193787 - 10/13/06 03:24 AM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: Svengali]
DataLore Offline


Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3
Quote:

Marilyn Manson is definately not the brightest bulb in the pack. He says and does a lot of incredibly stupid things that contradict what Dr. LaVey was about. He has also publically backpeddled regarding his involvement with the Church of Satan (on the Bill O'Reilly show), which to me places him in the category of people who were siding up to Dr. LaVey for "noteriety by association" claiming to be all about the philosophy, yet disparaging Dr. LaVey's legacy after he passed away. If they were really so devoted to Dr. LaVey, they would not have shit on his memory. Personally I think his affiliation should be revoked.




Hail Svengali!

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#193788 - 10/13/06 04:17 AM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: Svengali]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
This is a well written reply, Magister. I find anything you write to be well written anyway.

Marilyn Manson has lost it if you ask me. I was once an avid fan of his music and up until a few years ago(3-5), I could have told you just about anything you wanted to know about him. I can even give him credit for my finding Satanism, as I am sure a lot of folks could credit him the same. If it had not been for the chapters of his autobiography pertaining to his experiences with the Good Doktor, I would not have came upon The Satanic Bible when I did. I cannot speculate one way or the other as to how/if I would have discovered it otherwise, but I digress.

On the other hand, this attention I devoted to him also influenced me to wander off the path, so to speak. It was during my high school years that I hit rock bottom. I got into drugs, alcohol and general trouble all around. One day, about two years after high school, I snapped out of it. I woke up and told myself, "This is bullshit, you are destroying yourself when you should be building yourself up." Then I went through my box of books and dug out that diabolical black book and read it again. I decided I had enough with all of that. But again, I digress.

I was not actually aware of Marilyn Manson's backpedalling. Then again, I don't watch Bill O'Reilly or any other shows of that nature. This only adds to my loss of interest(the backpedalling). I still read his bio from time to time, as a sort of reminder of that period of my life when things turned around for me. I agree that he does some stupid things. I also have read some equally interesting opinions of his in the past. (See The Delusional Self)

I am not going to advocate his actions or statements, especially those in regards to his affiliation. I agree that if you backpedal, you should turn in your red card. If it wasn't for Dr. LaVey, none of us would be where we are now(CoS/Satanism). The man(Dr. LaVey) deserves every bit of respect and praise for the achievements of his lifetime and the memories he left behind. His Church is standing strong some 40 years later and moves ever forward. In a few more years, I wouldn't be surprised if Marilyn Manson is forgotten. He seems to be on that path already.

In regards to the topic at hand, I say let people make their own choices. If people use drugs and can't figure out that it is a self-destructive path, then fuck 'em. If someone is smart enough to stay away from them or realise the error of their ways and correct the problem, then good for them. Responsibility to the responsible.

Enjoy your life, don't destroy it.


Edited by xDravenx (10/13/06 05:04 AM)

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#193789 - 10/13/06 06:04 AM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: Lust]
Rory_Rocketpants Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 1795
Loc: unknown
Magister Svengali,

I disagree about your advocation of people eating/smoking marijuana as opposed to drinking alcohol.

Although alcohol undoubtedly makes people act like imbeciles, in my opinion, it is a lot healthier, psychologically, than pot.

You probably said what you did due to the current "binge drinking" culture; people drinking until they vomit, fighting anyone in the nearest vicinity for sheer amusement.

The key here is: Self Restraint.

If these people were worried about fucking up their bodies and their lives, they would drink...in moderation, or not at all.
But they are obviously not, so fuck them! Let them drown themselves in alcohol!

Marijuana causes psychosis, mania, schizophrenia, paranoia, and many other problems. Yes, over a great amount of time I can imagine alcohol abuse would do something similar, but nowhere near as quick as pot would cause it to happen.

I personally do not do drugs, I do not drink (I haven't for some time and am now intolerant to any more than one alcoholic beverage), I have given up smoking, even though it was something that I enjoyed doing, my BODY didn't enjoy it, and one should respect one's body, without a doubt.

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#193790 - 10/13/06 06:25 AM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: Mr_47]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

A. I can even give him credit for my finding Satanism, as I am sure a lot of folks could credit him the same.

B. On the other hand, this attention I devoted to him also influenced me to wander off the path, so to speak. It was during my high school years that I hit rock bottom. I got into drugs, alcohol and general trouble all around.





That is the crux of it.

His assets never outweighed his liabilities.

Whatever talent (or lack thereof) he had as a musician is irrelevant.

"Talented" musicians are a dime a dozen.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#193791 - 10/13/06 06:31 AM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: Rory_Rocketpants]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
They are equally worthless in my book.

I was addressing habitual drug/alcohol users, not people who drink till they puke one weekend out of the month.

They are stupid too, but relatively harmless as long as they are unarmed and don't drive.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#193792 - 10/13/06 09:41 AM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: Svengali]
Maya Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 1447
Loc: New England
As always, Magister, your insights are much appreciated.

As for Marilyn Manson, I am a fan of his music. Of course, you don't have to respect a musician to like his music. I don't know him personally, so I don't feel qualified to make a certain judgement on his character.

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#193793 - 10/13/06 10:16 AM Re: SATANIC HEDONISM vs. RECREATIONAL DRUG ABUSE [Re: Maya]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
I am only refering to his public words and actions in regards to Satanism.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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