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#194299 - 10/14/06 01:51 AM Faults of Satan
WURM Offline


Registered: 10/14/06
Posts: 6
An inquiry.

What are some faults you see in Satanism (if you believe there are)?

Personally, I see a very solid philosophy but I think that the moralities of Satanism, like Nietzsche and many others can become something worse off than, perhaps, the complete evasion of them in Christianity. This is mainly why I'm not a “Satanist”. Aside from morals, I think that it (Satanism) gives to much way on selfishness, which is confusing because that, to me, feels like something against elitism.

Any thoughts?

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#194300 - 10/14/06 01:53 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: WURM]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10146
You're not very clear about this.

Very bluntly, I don't see any fault in Satanic philosophy. Unlike members of other religions, we don't "settle" and compromise ourselves.

What problem do you see in Satanic "morality" (though it is more accurately ethics, not morality)? How is selfishness contrary to elitism?
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#194301 - 10/14/06 02:01 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
WURM Offline


Registered: 10/14/06
Posts: 6
Quote:

You're not very clear about this.

Very bluntly, I don't see any fault in Satanic philosophy. Unlike members of other religions, we don't "settle" and compromise ourselves.

What problem do you see in Satanic "morality" (though it is more accurately ethics, not morality)? How is selfishness contrary to elitism?




ah, correct, ethics, it would more properly be. And i guess the selfishness would be somewhere in with the ethics. my problem is (with the ethics) that Satanism leaves the door open for nearly anything. And with that, we have taking advantage of others becuase the are weaker (by eviromental determinism) or vampires (i think). but, all in all, i just couldn't see an existence of a society of satanists becuase of the ethical realtivism that indures in satanism. i feel, still without any belief in a god, that there are fundamental macro-ethics that all humans can agree with. and correct me if my wrong, wouldnt a satanist society not really live be those or even want too.

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#194302 - 10/14/06 02:04 AM A question for you. [Re: WURM]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12599
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I was wondering if you are open to Satanism or possibly even becoming a member of the Church of Satan in the future?

I am only trying to determine if you have an open mind on the subject or not.

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#194303 - 10/14/06 02:13 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: WURM]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10146
You're wrong on a lot of counts.

For example, you suggest that there is something wrong with taking advantage of others, yet from a Satanic perspective, this is merely nature itself, the law of the jungle, and isn't something we have to legislate to make true. It simply is.

You also seem to believe that we have no code of conduct or ethical sensibility, a code of honor if you will. This is hardly the case; I think you will find that among Satanists, honor and loyalty are valued most highly, prized virtues to be admired and praised. Satanism also strongly suggests a sense of justice, which would be completely at odds with a "do anything" notion such as you suggest. Satanism is neither blind hedonism or anarchy, but something far more refined.

Your biggest fault, however, is that you assume that Satanism believes itself to be or would ever wish to be a majority religion. Quite the opposite, intrinsic to the philosophy is that it is the ethic of the minority, and Dr. LaVey even specifically said that Satanism is in opposition to all those beliefs that wistfully hope for a utopia that could only function in a nation of philosophers.

Conversely, however, Satanism is the "reality" of everything. Perhaps here is where you find confusion, no? For Satanism describes the law by which all things live, yet suggests at the same time that there is a "right" way to this, a way by which you become better by acknowledging your carnal nature rather than denying it, and by resolving a code of ethics and justice for yourself, rather than allowing the invisible man to do so for you.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#194304 - 10/14/06 02:18 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: WURM]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Why would a person identify with a religion in which they see faults?

Your comment is actually one that I encounter regularly. People who have not read all of the Satanic Bible jump to conclusions that we feel entitled to do whatever we please regardless of the consequences or harm to people around us. This is far from the case.

Such a perspective comes only from those that are either:

A. looking for flaws and ignoring evidence that rejects their conclusions.

or

B. are using a definition of Satanism that they read from an unofficial source.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#194305 - 10/14/06 02:21 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
WURM Offline


Registered: 10/14/06
Posts: 6
that clears it up a bit. thanks.

it makes more sense now that i know its meant only to be a minority religion and so forth.

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#194306 - 10/14/06 02:23 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:

You also seem to believe that we have no code of conduct or ethical sensibility, a code of honor if you will. This is hardly the case; I think you will find that among Satanists, honor and loyalty are valued most highly, prized virtues to be admired and praised. Satanism also strongly suggests a sense of justice, which would be completely at odds with a "do anything" notion such as you suggest. Satanism is neither blind hedonism or anarchy, but something far more refined.




Satanism's detractors ignore that point so often and it is the crux of their argument in so many cases.

Well done! (I would expect no less)
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#194307 - 10/14/06 04:25 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
tekku Online
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1262
Loc: Behind You
Quote:

You're wrong on a lot of counts.

For example, you suggest that there is something wrong with taking advantage of others, yet from a Satanic perspective, this is merely nature itself, the law of the jungle, and isn't something we have to legislate to make true. It simply is.

You also seem to believe that we have no code of conduct or ethical sensibility, a code of honor if you will. This is hardly the case; I think you will find that among Satanists, honor and loyalty are valued most highly, prized virtues to be admired and praised. Satanism also strongly suggests a sense of justice, which would be completely at odds with a "do anything" notion such as you suggest. Satanism is neither blind hedonism or anarchy, but something far more refined.

Your biggest fault, however, is that you assume that Satanism believes itself to be or would ever wish to be a majority religion. Quite the opposite, intrinsic to the philosophy is that it is the ethic of the minority, and Dr. LaVey even specifically said that Satanism is in opposition to all those beliefs that wistfully hope for a utopia that could only function in a nation of philosophers.

Conversely, however, Satanism is the "reality" of everything. Perhaps here is where you find confusion, no? For Satanism describes the law by which all things live, yet suggests at the same time that there is a "right" way to this, a way by which you become better by acknowledging your carnal nature rather than denying it, and by resolving a code of ethics and justice for yourself, rather than allowing the invisible man to do so for you.




**tekku stands up and gives a standing ovation**
_________________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die
~H.P. Lovecraft~

La bonne cuisine est la base du véritable bonheur ~Escoffier~

Church of Satan

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#194308 - 10/14/06 04:31 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: WURM]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
The only faults I can think of lie in Satanists, not Satanism. Other Satanists don't always apply or interpret Satanism in a way I agree with or think is practical or correct. Newbies in particular do not always seem to understand which ideas belong solely to LaVey, or even solely to other members of the hierarchy, and which ideas are clearly and plainly part of Satanic doctrine.

So, there are a few Satanists in the world, in my view, who go overboard, say, on the misanthropia, or the fascism. Of course, this is my personal preference, so your mileage may vary.

Actual Satanism, as I see it, is very straightforward and practical. How can I object to wanting to care for myself, or wanting to preserve my life, and the things, people, and hobbies dear to me? How can I object to pragmatism? And, how could I deny or reject that might makes right in the end, independent of my myriad other ideas on such matters?
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#194309 - 10/14/06 04:41 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: WURM]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10146
The funny thing is that you hold the keys right in your hand yet don't even realize it.

You see the obvious need for an ethical code of honor, and the need for logic, carnality, and human decency to find their common ground.

Satanism provides a ready work table, and says, "You see what must be done to make such a code for yourself, so make it!"

This is hardly a flaw, this is perfection itself. It is fully expected that your personal ethics and code will take the need for reason and justice into account. Satanism is the foundation on which you build a house. You can build a house many ways, but you do so with brick, mortar, and lumber all the same.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#194310 - 10/14/06 04:49 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: TrojZyr]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Satan has no faults as Satan does not exist.

The only faults within Satanism are that of the faults of the individual Satanist.

Humans make mistakes and are not above reproach.

A Satanist will admit to his/her faults, learn from them and not repeat them.

Mistakes however are not to be blamed on 'Satan', 'Satanism' or 'insert any name here you wish' but to that of the offending person/party.

_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#194311 - 10/14/06 05:14 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: WURM]
Bedrosian Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 763
Loc: Finland
You need to undestand that Satanism is not nihilism.
_________________________
SATANISMI.NET - 'Finnish Reflections on Satanism'

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#194312 - 10/14/06 08:24 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: WURM]
Biff Offline


Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 370
Loc: Hong Kong, SAR
There is no fault to Satanism, it was designed to be the religion that suited man the most. I am quite new to Satanism but I have gathered enough understanding. It used to confuse me that a satanist would be friendly yet elitist and I thought it was a contradiction but looking I deeper it would mean that people can be elitist and tough though you are supposed to posess some care for those who treat you well.

The only fault, though not really a fault of Satanism itself, is that individuals can take this religion in the wrong way because of the hundreds of years of Xian propaganda that they've disillusioned themself with but that is up to the individual and not the religion.
_________________________
'Carpe diem quam minimum credulo postero' - Horace

'It's only hubris, if I fail.' - Caesar (HBO's Rome)

HAIL SATAN!

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#194313 - 10/14/06 09:52 AM Re: Faults of Satan [Re: WURM]
Manimal Offline


Registered: 05/03/02
Posts: 19
Loc: Norway
The fault of Satanism is some of its followers, not the philosophy. Far too many consider Satanism a doctrine for which your behavior to be regulated with. They don't understand the philosophy; they are merely Followers - not Satanists.

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