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#19568 - 01/06/04 10:03 PM Origination and meaning.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Darkest Greetings All.
I have a general question for the board, as to the defination of a term. While talking with a fellow Satanist, the topic of the word "Amen" came up. In her studies, she states the word means "So be it." From what I have gathered it means:
Quote:

Main Entry: amen
Pronunciation: (')ä-'men, (')A-; 'ä- when sung
Function: interjection
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Greek amEn, from Hebrew AmEn
Date: before 12th century
-- used to express solemn ratification (as of an expression of faith) or hearty approval (as of an assertion)




Any thoughts would be most appricated as to the ACTUAL meaning, mayhaps prior to my dictionary defination.
AVE All Who Know!

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#19569 - 01/06/04 10:09 PM Re: Origination and meaning.
SilverHammer Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 1758
Loc: Connecticut
I've also heard it means "so be it." On dictionary.com, the origin is described thusly:

Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin mn, from Greek, from Hebrew ’mn, certainly, verily, from ’man, to be firm. See mn in Semitic Roots.

So it could be translated as so be it, definitely, totally, indeed, or even for shizzle-mah-nizzle.
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Some boys grow up into men who can look at themselves in the mirror in the morning, and others just go along with the crowd, forgetting after a while that they ever had a choice. ---Roger Ebert

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#19571 - 01/06/04 10:35 PM Re: Origination and meaning.
L. Kabron Offline


Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 1505
Loc: Massachusetts
I went to a Christian school for about a year of my life, and we were told that it meant "so be it".
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It's a stinkin' world ol' boy, you got to live in it as best you can.

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#19572 - 01/06/04 10:45 PM Re: Origination and meaning.
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
This one is just a personal interpretation of mine, not supported by any serious study.

The Hebrews took many ritual and liturgical elements (an even entire religious texts) from the Ancient Egyptians. I think Amen is a derivation of the name Amon (or Amun) “The Occult”. Even when Egypt had several gods, the cult of the solar god Amon was the closest thing to a monotheistic system the Egyptians had. Some scholars agree Hebrew monotheism evolved from Egyptian religion.

Being chanted as part of a ritual, the world Amen has a solemn deep vibration (not unlike the Aum or Om of Hinduism) I guess the recitation of the name of Amon as element of rituals could have been adopted (and adapted) by Hebrews into their religion. Later its use was inherited by Christians, long lost its original meaning.

But then again, this is just a theory of mine.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#19573 - 01/08/04 11:52 AM Lucifer [Re: Quaark]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>And the Catholic Dictionary entry for Lucifer. There is no
>>entry for Satan.

Nice to see some Xtians admitting the facts about this. Namely, that the word Lucifer ("light bringer") only appears ONCE in the entire KJV Bible (and in most other translations like the NIV, not at all), and only because it was the chosen latin word for "morning star". I'm forever amused with many other Xians who unknowingly base their beliefs on Milton's Paradise Lost or Dante's Inferno, let alone Xtians who bash Catholics while adhering to a Bible that was put together by Catholics.

Thanks for the link.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

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#19574 - 01/08/04 11:37 PM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: Old_Pig]
Magister_Lang Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 5822
Loc: I-BLISS!
Your theory regarding AMON is more than just theory. Well done.
_________________________
“The world, like a wolf pack is not all the licking of pups and howls by the moonlight. Sometimes there just needs to be a gnashing of teeth and a ripping of flesh to put things back into the natural order of things.”

XLII A.S.

"Magic is a tool and is essentially useless unless it can serve you here and now! Anything else is simply an act in faith and an excuse for failure in the here and now." XLVI A.S. R. Lang

"Chaos is a creation of mankind and does not exist within the uncompromising fascism of natures laws! Everything has order." XLVI A.S R. Lang

"To believe in Chaos one must believe that their is some kind of God who all of a sudden put everything into order! That!, I cannot relate too..."
R. Lang XLVI A.S.

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#19575 - 01/09/04 12:27 AM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: Magister_Lang]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Thanks! I think it sounds interesting, but of course, its just speculation.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#19576 - 01/09/04 02:18 AM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: Old_Pig]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
I was poking through some of my old occultnik books.

Amen.. or AMN in Hebrew. Notarikon for Al Melech Neh-eh-man.

Translated it means... "God is our King"
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

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#19577 - 01/09/04 09:00 PM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: L. Kabron]
Anonymous
Unregistered


El_Cabron,
I belive this is also where said friend of mine had gained an education, and thusly reported the meaning back to me. I somehow feel the root goes a bit deeper though.
AVE

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#19578 - 01/09/04 09:08 PM Re: Origination and meaning.
Magister_Lang Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 5822
Loc: I-BLISS!
The root of this lies in Egypt!
This is a fact.
Have fun.
HS!
Hail Amon!
That which is hidden.
_________________________
“The world, like a wolf pack is not all the licking of pups and howls by the moonlight. Sometimes there just needs to be a gnashing of teeth and a ripping of flesh to put things back into the natural order of things.”

XLII A.S.

"Magic is a tool and is essentially useless unless it can serve you here and now! Anything else is simply an act in faith and an excuse for failure in the here and now." XLVI A.S. R. Lang

"Chaos is a creation of mankind and does not exist within the uncompromising fascism of natures laws! Everything has order." XLVI A.S R. Lang

"To believe in Chaos one must believe that their is some kind of God who all of a sudden put everything into order! That!, I cannot relate too..."
R. Lang XLVI A.S.

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#19579 - 01/10/04 04:34 AM Re: Origination and meaning.
chumchwalla Offline


Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 33
Actually, In Hebrew Amen came from the verb "emunah" which roughly translates as "so it shall be done."

As for as it being Egyptian in origin, there is much conjecture upon this. The word "Raa" in Hebrew meant "evil" as "Ra"
from "Amon-Ra" was believed by the Hebrews to be an evil god. The letters to spell Amon and Emunah are completely different. The Hebrews were also henotheistic, and not monotheistic at the time that they were in Egypt, montheism came later.

So, it literally means "so it shall be done." However it has other related hidden meanings, so there is more to it than just that.
Cheers,

chumchwalla

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#19580 - 01/10/04 04:46 AM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: chumchwalla]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
It's no anthropological mystery that monotheism originated in Egypt and Sumeria region of the Middle East.

The Hebrews and their Jehovah, were actually natives to the Canaan region, not fleeing refugees from Egypt. Jehovah, or Yahweh, was originally part of a trinity with Ashteroth and Baal. Eventually the Hebrew tribes took the Egyptian mysticism and monotheism, suck Jehovah in Amon-Ra's place and thusly gave birth to early Judaism. And alot of the Egyptian traditions carried over to early Judaism.

Amon - Amen isn't that far of a lingual stretch. We all know the propensities of one religion cannibalising another for "original ideas". Ha!

Anthropology and the Bible.


Edited by Felstorm (01/10/04 04:48 AM)
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

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#19581 - 01/10/04 05:06 AM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: Felstorm]
chumchwalla Offline


Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 33
Wow! Cool post, Felstorm you are definitely speaking my kind of language. Ever hear of "Utnapishtim and his Boat?" Predated the Noah story by thousands of years. There are thousands of fascinating references to Ancient Near Eastern studies in the
biblical tales.

In college Near Eastern studies this was furiously debated. Wallace Budge purported that there was a link to to the Hebrews using "emunah" from the practice of the Egyptians
using Amuns name as an oath. If that were true that would be funny, since they were prohibited by levitical law from using oaths. But they may have forgotten, like in Spanish when one says "ojala que" I hope so, and this came from an
Arabic term stating "allah wills it so."

The scholarly and university wide concensus was that Amun would be spelled with an "ayin" and amen would be spelled with an "aleph" and therefore could not be related. This wasn't completely ruled out however. Very interesting ideas were brought up in this debate.

Just for fun, you could link the two words via gematria very indirectly, in a very non-straightforward way. Heh



Edited by chumchwalla (01/10/04 05:07 AM)

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#19582 - 01/10/04 06:46 AM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: chumchwalla]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Of course the Hebrews might have picked up a few things if they were ever in the Black Land.

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#19583 - 01/10/04 07:59 PM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: Nemo]
chumchwalla Offline


Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 33
Yes. Khemet indeed!

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#19584 - 01/10/04 09:27 PM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: chumchwalla]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
In modern Egyptology circles, Wallis Budge is considered pretty much obsolete. I admit some of his work it outdated. But I don't think we have to discard all of his work or deny his merit. I'm sure he is still right on a lot of things. Perhaps he was right about the "Emunah-Ammun" connection.

There is definite evidence of Hebrew Scriptures taken from Egyptian sources, like Psalm 104 which is almost a word-by-word copy of Akhenaton's Hymn to the Sun Disk. Beside religious texts, rituals and practices for the early Hebrews are also very similar to the Egyptian ones. We must remember in their origins, Hebrew religion was not Monotheist, they worshiped Yahweh over all other Gods, but they admitted they were other Gods. The same as the Egyptians had infinite number of deities, but Ammun was specially revered.

Of course, being Egypt super-power of the times, it's just logic that its influence were everywhere and the cultured class (priests, scholars) on other nations copied Egyptian costumes, practices and language. Perhaps the similitude between the two words is the result of that... or perhaps just a coincidence.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#19585 - 01/10/04 09:34 PM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: Nemo]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Perhaps they never were in Egypt at all!

That's another heated topic of discussion in between archaeologist and historians which will never be objectively studied because of the religious significance of the "captivity" and "exodus".

Personally I'm inclined to believe it’s all a myth... But since I was not exactly there at the moment, I'll wait for more conclusive evidence to be found.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#19586 - 01/10/04 09:41 PM Hebrews in Egypt. [Re: Old_Pig]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Apart from the nitpicking, it seems that some group of Semites at one time ruled the Northern Kingdom, worshipped Set and were deeply disliked by the more native Egyptians.

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#19587 - 01/10/04 10:11 PM Hyksos [Re: Nemo]
chumchwalla Offline


Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 33
Oh yes.. the Hyksos, a fascinating bunch. Set was depicted as around that time as having red hair and alabaster skin, and was associated with the sandstorms in the reddish region of Egypt. When they ruled over Egypt for a while, the pharoah chose the name of Set to rule under. Neat stuff.

chumchwalla

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#19588 - 01/10/04 10:21 PM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: Old_Pig]
chumchwalla Offline


Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 33
Cool post, interesting read. I have heard the "Hymn to the "Sun Disc" before, and it is quite similar. A good book by Wallace Budge's is "Egyptian Magic" - a concise little introduction to the symbols in the artwork of Egypt. BTW I liked your "Pigasso" by the way in the artwork section. Your pig cartoons are funny.

cheers,
chumchwalla

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#19589 - 01/12/04 07:52 PM Re: Lucifer [Re: Bill_M]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

>>And the Catholic Dictionary entry for Lucifer. There is no
>>entry for Satan.

Nice to see <I>some</I> Xtians admitting the facts about this. Namely, that the word Lucifer ("light bringer") only appears ONCE in the entire KJV Bible (and in most other translations like the NIV, not at all), and only because it was the chosen latin word for "morning star". I'm forever amused with many other Xians who unknowingly base their beliefs on Milton's <I>Paradise Lost</I> or Dante's <I>Inferno</I>, let alone Xtians who bash Catholics while adhering to a Bible that was put together by Catholics.

Thanks for the link.




As Blake said, "poets invented the gods". Same goes for most theist religions, on this part.

I am not sure on your distinction between Christianity and Catholicism. After the separation of the Roman Empire - the largest, most tragic case of failure due to this religion - the Christian state religion separated in two parts; one, Catholicism, having its home in Roma, the other, Orthodoxism, with its home at Constantinople. Later on, more and more factions spread out, giving birth to variations on the same theme. They all believe in Jesus Christ and the New Testament, with particularities to suit the needs of as many people as they could get [because they always wanted to get more].

And, to go even further, the Bible is, as many know, a translation and interpretation of the Dead Sea Scrolls with additional information and whatnot. It was, indeed, compiled in the Vatican.

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#19590 - 01/12/04 07:57 PM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: Old_Pig]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

This one is just a personal interpretation of mine, not supported by any serious study.

The Hebrews took many ritual and liturgical elements (an even entire religious texts) from the Ancient Egyptians. I think Amen is a derivation of the name Amon (or Amun) “The Occult”. Even when Egypt had several gods, the cult of the solar god Amon was the closest thing to a monotheistic system the Egyptians had. Some scholars agree Hebrew monotheism evolved from Egyptian religion.

Being chanted as part of a ritual, the world Amen has a solemn deep vibration (not unlike the Aum or Om of Hinduism) I guess the recitation of the name of Amon as element of rituals could have been adopted (and adapted) by Hebrews into their religion. Later its use was inherited by Christians, long lost its original meaning.

But then again, this is just a theory of mine.




Your theory has some sound speculations in it. Good going!

But, certain texts indicate that High Initiates in Egypt were monotheistic. I have just read it today, but the book was about a different topic altogether so it is irelevant to quote it here. Nonetheless...

Oh, and on part of the 'exodus'... some Egyptian texts indicate that the Semites were 'kicked out' of Egypt on account of a number of things, including but not limited to the ideas that are characteristic to Semite religions.

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#19591 - 01/12/04 08:10 PM Re: Lucifer
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>I am not sure on your distinction between Christianity and Catholicism. [...]
>>It was, indeed, compiled in the Vatican.

That's what I was referring to.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

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#19592 - 01/15/04 11:48 PM Re: Origination and meaning.
Magister_Lang Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 5822
Loc: I-BLISS!
The Lords Prayer was taken from an Egyptian hymn to Osiris and Amen.
The prayer starts off, " Oh Amen, Oh Amen, who art in heaven."
At the end of most Egyptian prayers it was Amen who was invoked.

A decent book on the subject regarding synthesis of earlier myths into Christianity is THE CHRIST CONSPIRACY by Acharya S.
_________________________
“The world, like a wolf pack is not all the licking of pups and howls by the moonlight. Sometimes there just needs to be a gnashing of teeth and a ripping of flesh to put things back into the natural order of things.”

XLII A.S.

"Magic is a tool and is essentially useless unless it can serve you here and now! Anything else is simply an act in faith and an excuse for failure in the here and now." XLVI A.S. R. Lang

"Chaos is a creation of mankind and does not exist within the uncompromising fascism of natures laws! Everything has order." XLVI A.S R. Lang

"To believe in Chaos one must believe that their is some kind of God who all of a sudden put everything into order! That!, I cannot relate too..."
R. Lang XLVI A.S.

Top
#19593 - 01/16/04 11:41 PM Re: Origination and meaning. [Re: Magister_Lang]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Darkest Greetings Rev_Lang!
TY for the 411 on the book
Quote:

THE CHRIST CONSPIRACY by Acharya S.



I will see if this is available here. If not, mayhaps I will order it online. Got to love internet shopping for such things!
AVE!

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