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#198650 - 10/29/06 03:48 PM "Testosterone Decline in American Males"
d1g1t Offline


Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Southwest UK
This article was very interesting:


---------------------------------
FRIDAY, Oct. 27 (HealthDay News) -- The testosterone-fueled American male may be losing his punch.

Over the past two decades, levels of the sex hormone in U.S. men have been falling steadily, a new study finds.

For example, average total testosterone levels in men aged 65 to 69 fell from 503 nanograms/decileter (ng/dL) in 1988 to 423 ng/dL in 2003.

The reasons for this trend are unclear, said researchers at the New England Research Institutes in Waterdown, Mass. They noted that neither aging nor certain other health factors, such as smoking or obesity, can fully explain the decline.

"Male serum testosterone levels appear to vary by generation, even after age is taken into account," study lead author Thomas G. Travison said in a prepared statement.

Testosterone is the primary male sex hormone and plays an important role in maintaining bone and muscle mass. Low testosterone levels have been linked to health problems, including lowered libido and diabetes.

It's normal for men's testosterone levels to peak in their late 20s and then start to gradually decline, experts say. But this study found that overall testosterone levels are lower than they were 20 years ago.

"In 1988, men who were 50 years and older had higher serum testosterone concentrations than did comparable 50-year-old men in 1996. This suggests that some factor other than age may be contributing to the observed declines in testosterone over time," Travison said.

He and his colleagues analyzed blood samples -- along with health and other information -- from about 1,500 men in the greater Boston area who took part in the Massachusetts Male Aging Study. That study collected data in 1987-89, 1995-97, and 2002-04.

"This analysis deals with men who were born between 1915 and 1945, but our baseline data were not obtained until the late 1980s, when the elder subjects were about 70 years old, and the youngest about 45," Travison said.

"Events occurring in earlier decades could certainly help explain our results, if their effects persisted into recent years," he noted.
------------------------------------------------


So my question is, is this a good thing or a bad thing, considering testosterone also affects how one acts in an aggressive or "fighting" manner. Are human males doomed to become, well, wimps? Or does this leave the path open for men (and to an extent, women!) to become more rational, thinking people who step back from situations where otherwise they would just charge in fists up?
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#198651 - 10/29/06 04:46 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: d1g1t]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
One city isn't necessarily representative.

What's the average in other age brackets?

What's the margin for error in this test? A recorded change of only a couple of percentage points may not be statistically significant.
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#198652 - 10/29/06 09:10 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: d1g1t]
dragondancer Offline

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Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
I agree with Reprobate. Maybe there is something that is affecting hormone levels in men around the Boston area. They need to study a broader population to draw any conclusions on a large population such as US males. They could say testosterone levels in Boston area males of a certain age are declining, but that is really all this study has shown.

Maybe I should tell my son to move out of the Boston area before it's too late! He's my only son and I'd like him to stay that way.


Hail Satan!


Edited by dragondancer (10/29/06 09:14 PM)
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#198653 - 10/29/06 09:52 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: d1g1t]
Felstorm Offline
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Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
Heh.

I wonder how much of that is due to the current trend of the media emasculating men?
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#198654 - 10/29/06 10:09 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: dragondancer]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1017

That is an excellent point.

If you were doing a study on crime in the US, you would not focus on just Newark, NJ. Similarly, you would not do a study on Syphilus in Baltimore, MD. It is--or was--the Syphilus capital of the world. Perhaps Boston, MA, uses poor water purification methods? Who knows? But, you need to look further than Boston to determine the delcine of male testosterone levels.

I would attribute it to the general laziness and disinclination of Americans to get off their asses and exercise. Are men in Boston unusually obese as well?


A bit off the subject, but your question reminds me of a book I once read: Malcolm Gladwell's Tipping Point. It was a great read.

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#198655 - 10/30/06 12:01 AM Re: "Xenoestrogens" [Re: d1g1t]
redheadgrl Offline


Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 273
A likely cause is "xenoestrogens" or "foreign estrogens," and those are not good for humans, or the planet. Aside from lowering testosterone, they also lower the sperm count, compromise the immune system, lower fertility, and affect the anatomy of all sorts of non-human animals, AND they often promote or cause cancer (as in "pretty pink ribbons and run-for-the-cure" type cancers).

One of the causes is food stored or cooked in plastic-where the xenoestrogens are absorbed from the plastic. Another major cause is the hormones (which are a form of xenoestrogen) used by ranchers to fatten animals and speed up their maturity. When you ingest the meat you also ingest the hormones.

Progesterone (in the correct dosage) is the precursor to estrogen production in women and testosterone production in men.

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#198656 - 10/30/06 11:20 AM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: d1g1t]
Biff Offline


Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 370
Loc: Hong Kong, SAR
It appears that we must bid farewell to the generation of good wholesome air polluting heart crunching a mile to the gallon automobiles and the heart attack inducing thick texas steaks and greet the new age of extra-metrosexual reality + makeover shows.

Queer Eye for the queer guy anyone?
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#198657 - 10/30/06 04:52 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: d1g1t]
gypsy Offline
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Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.wfs.org/trend2ma05.htm
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#198658 - 10/30/06 04:55 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Biff]
reprobate Offline

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Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Low testosterone doesn't make you a fop.
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#198659 - 10/30/06 07:26 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: gypsy]
Zaftig Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3401
Quote:

Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.wfs.org/trend2ma05.htm




I just read the article you posted. Interesting, since haven't we all heard the argument before that when women rule the world, all will be well.

I'm not convinced.

Women can be more vicious than men if their children are threatened. As if suddenly, womankind as a whole, will be unable to resist the lure of powerover, and maintain an egalitarian ideal.
I'd be the first power hungry bitch with a lesbian harem.


Edited by lexiphanic (10/30/06 07:26 PM)

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#198660 - 10/30/06 08:13 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Zaftig]
gypsy Offline
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>>I'd be the first power hungry bitch with a lesbian harem<<

Women ruling the world?

But as I stated draw your own conclusion.


I personally can't imagine living in a world without men.
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#198661 - 10/30/06 08:21 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Zaftig]
Ixmucane Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 109
In theory an egg has the potential to undergo the divisions necessary in order to give a new being, albeit identical to its mother. I have read of a species of aphids who forgo sexual reproduction altogether and reproduce by parthenogenesis, which means that the entire population is female. When times are tough they revert back to sexual reproduction and therefore increase genetic variability and chances of survival of the species. Males serve the only purpose of providing the genetic variability.

In response to the original post regarding the decrease of testosterone, I don't think the article mentions if they saw an increase of estrogens in these males. When I was in university I attended a conference in which the specialist proposed that our water (here in Montreal) could contain trace amounts of female hormones which would come from all the women who take the pill. Montreal is an island, and municipal water is taken from the St-Laurent (the river surrounding Montreal), which is also the river where municipal waste goes. So what this person was saying is that female hormones were then very likely present in our tap water and therefore ingested by everyone who drank the water. Eventually this would cause feminisation in men. Now I remember thinking how many liters of water a day must a man drink in order for this to happen? I did a quick search and found nothing published on this subject, so I guess it has stayed at the hypothesis level.
I agree with those who have stated that one study is not indicative of a real "problem". In order for a study like this to have any significance, it would have to be recreated by different researchers in different cities. I find that a lot of the times, the media will pay too much attention to studies like this one, just to stir up a commotion.

Evelyn
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#198662 - 10/30/06 08:30 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: gypsy]
dragondancer Offline

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Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
A world without men!? Noooooooo. I like sex with guys. I like hanging out with guys. It just wouldn't be the same.
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"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#198663 - 10/30/06 09:42 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Zaftig]
Isabel23 Offline
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Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 2037
Women can be more vicious than men..

You can just stop there!

A reading of the jucier bits of history will bear this out.

The suffragettes insisted that the world would be a better place when women had the vote.

It turned out that the number of voters was doubled. That was it! The world did not go down in flames, nor did it turn into utopia. Fancy that!

As to the original post -- our food and water have become increasingly tainted with thousands of chemicals, usually in trace amounts. It's anyones' guess what the effects are.

I find it difficult to imagine how they could ever sort out what causes what in whom.
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#198664 - 10/30/06 09:50 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: gypsy]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Another biological "urban legend." Doesn't even make vague biological sense, similar to the legend that blondes will go "extinct" in a couple centuries. Probably used to get people riled up believing the endtimes are somehow at hand, or some global unified race will exist, or whatever.
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#198665 - 10/30/06 10:02 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: dragondancer]
redheadgrl Offline


Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 273
Me too.

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#198666 - 10/30/06 10:36 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Felstorm Offline
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Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
Quote:

Doesn't even make vague biological sense, similar to the legend that blondes will go "extinct" in a couple centuries.




NO!

We must prevent this!

Wait. I thought it was redheads that were going to go extinct?

Either way, we must preserve redheads and blondes! Should start up a "Save a Redhead" foundation. Start up redhead and blonde breeding programs, raise the little redheadlings and then release them into the wild. Blondes I think will be okay without a breeding program. There are enough of them that dye their hair that way that it'll probably just become genetic anyway.

Now.

We need to do some gene-splicing so I can get that glow-in-the-dark blue-haired girl I've always wanted.
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

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#198667 - 10/30/06 11:16 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Felstorm]
redheadgrl Offline


Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 273
Quote:



NO!

We must prevent this!

Wait. I thought it was redheads that were going to go extinct?

Either way, we must preserve redheads and blondes! Should start up a "Save a Redhead" foundation. Start up redhead and blonde breeding programs, raise the little redheadlings and then release them into the wild.
Now.




This a good idea! We could start with an official redhead holiday!

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#198668 - 10/30/06 11:16 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
gypsy Offline
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Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
It's not my hypothesis.
Just thought I'd throw into the mix.

The idea is that mutation happens when cells divide and cells divide at a very very fast rate ,men can produce 100 million sperm a day and the DNA in a man of 60 has already been copied 1,000 times the y chromosome has been copied 1,000 times.
Over a thousand generations that is a million times it has been copied and without the ability to repair mutations there is an unstable condition that will degenerate. blah blah blah

Evolution has no plan for the future. Things change with time.
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#198669 - 10/31/06 01:02 AM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: gypsy]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
I know, I just wanted to nip it before anyone buys this silliness.

Genetic material does not just "degenerate," otherwise all lifeforms would continuously slide backwards instead of evolving. There's also no reason why this would be occurring in the human male, a relatively new species, instead of sharks or crocodiles, much older species. Why haven't their males disappeared? Their sperm certainly divides the same way ours does.

Finally, even if we assumed that genetic material did degrade due to this process, it would simply create an impetus of selection, and would be eliminated whenever it occurred. Males who produced "degenerate" sperm though whatever mechanism this fellow proposes would be eliminated in natural selection, in terms of genetic heritage.

As I said, it's all a very silly idea. If its basic premise were true, there wouldn't be life on earth, even asexual life.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#198670 - 10/31/06 02:53 AM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
gypsy Offline
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Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
>>There's also no reason why this would be occurring in the human male, a relatively new species, instead of sharks or crocodiles <<

.
The reason why the Y chromosome is so fragile is because unlike all our other chromosomes we have 23 in other chromosomes in our body, it doesn't actually exchange DNA with other chromosomes at each generation (something all the other chromosomes do) and the process of exchanging DNA actually heals mutations. The Y chromosome can’t heal its mutations any way near as effectively as the other chromosomes, and mutates at a faster rate.

I tell ya it’s an evolutionary outrage.



Just a little note and maybe interesting enough:
The Sex of Crocodiles is not decided by chromosomes but rather it is by the temperature in which the egg was fertilized.
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"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie."

"Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen to be dressed for it."


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#198671 - 10/31/06 03:17 AM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Felstorm]
Redhead Offline


Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 203
Loc: Europe
Quote:

Should start up a "Save a Redhead" foundation.





Hell, I get up from bed bursting with good health and high spirits to find out there's an organised effort to save me !


Oh well... I aim to please. I shall post my account number so you can carry on with this worthy cause .
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#198672 - 10/31/06 08:21 AM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Ixmucane Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 109
It's basically the reason that sexual reproduction is so wide spread, it provides a chance for genetic variability which is responsible for evolution. Creatures that reproduce by either scissiparity or parthenogenesis are basically clones, as soon as you come across tough times, the whole population is wiped out. The main reason we (humans) have managed to come this far is our genetic variability.
Unlike the bee males who are really only useful for reproduction, human males are great to have around all year-round. In a world without males I'd have to take out the garbage and mow the lawn myself!!

But seriously, I think it has become almost cool to put men down for the very characteristics that have made them capable of surviving and protecting their mate and offspring. A testosterone-ridden male is not only necessary for evolutionary purposes, but also might I add quite delicious.
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#198673 - 10/31/06 11:31 AM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: redheadgrl]
TrojZyr Offline
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Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Me three.

I loves my men!
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#198674 - 10/31/06 11:35 AM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: reprobate]
Biff Offline


Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 370
Loc: Hong Kong, SAR
I was just kidding around, for most part, testosterone is associated with these kind of thing and low testosterone the opposite, I understand its not true.
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HAIL SATAN!

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#198675 - 10/31/06 12:20 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Ixmucane]
Zaftig Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3401
Quote:

But seriously, I think it has become almost cool to put men down for the very characteristics that have made them capable of surviving and protecting their mate and offspring. A testosterone-ridden male is not only necessary for evolutionary purposes, but also might I add quite delicious.




Yes me too. I have a suspicion that the women I've known who criticize male agression secretly desire a man who can throw it down, hard or soft but always thorough, in the bedroom.

Delicious angry men aside, a friend of mine told me about a small community of natives on some island (my apologies, I have no idea where) that developed spontaneous sex change (female to male only) in puberty when a gender balance was necessary. The hypothesis was that, since they had remained isolated for so long, they had evolved this capability to propagate the species.

I am no longer in contact with this person, or I would ask her more details. Anyone ever hear of this?

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#198676 - 10/31/06 07:03 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Felstorm]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
OK, I'll do a drive by on this one because it's my topic of choice.

It has been recorded that men get a testosterone boost from winning during a sports event (or watching their team win) and even holding a gun. I've heard that testosterone drops dramatically when males enter boot camp and are constantly beaten down, but it goes through the roof by the time they graduate.

I'd wager that a lot of the behaviors popularly considered manly are similarly linked to boosts in testosterone. Meaning, I bet building something or shooting something generates more testosterone than, say, providing excellent customer service--which generally requires submissive behavior. I think it's possible that a decrease in testosterone could be a response to both the elevated role of women (the male-bashing you mentioned is a side effect of that) and the loss of the sorts of roles that would increase testosterone on a regular basis. In a service-oriented bureaucracy the manly man 'loses' consistently to someone who is more willing to 'go with the flow' and follow protocols. Manly men are 'unnecessary' when 'work' is something you do on a computer 40 hours a week. While jet setting executives might be playing a different game, Joe average really doesn't need any more testosterone than a woman to do his job properly. The unfortunate side-effect of this is that we may yet need our men to tap into the attributes that justify our sex.

There has always been a fear that any society that is too soft on its men will eventually become weak and will be easily conquered. Men have always guarded the idealism of masculinity in part for this reason. There are many today (men and women) who would like to see ideals of masculinity done away with altogether because they believe it leads to wars and violence and has no redeeming attributes. This is, truly, playing with fire.

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#198677 - 11/01/06 10:10 AM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Zaftig]
Ixmucane Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 109
Quote:

developed spontaneous sex change (female to male only) in puberty when a gender balance was necessary.




This sounds very improbable to me, mammals just do not possess this kind of versatility. It might someone who mistook a hermaphrodite for something else, or someone who misinterpreted a report of hermaphrodites in this population. Either way, I think that if these people existed, they would be more widely known and they would have been thoroughly dissected.
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#198678 - 11/01/06 11:09 AM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Ixmucane]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3401
Yes. It does seem quite improbale. It was the source (a person doing her bachelor of science in psychology) that made me consider it reliable.

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#198679 - 11/01/06 01:49 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
DamnedLucky Online

CoS Member

Registered: 08/03/06
Posts: 371
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Quote:

It has been recorded that men get a testosterone boost from winning during a sports event (or watching their team win)




I never would have thought the couch potato watching Monday Night Football with a beer and a bag of chips could possibly be doing something productive.

Wife: "I need you to take out the trash."
Husband: "Not now, I'm boosting my testosterone!"



All kidding aside, I hadn't really thought about how men I work with might feel about doing the same job as myself and other women and having no inherent advantage. What an excellent opportunity this is to use a little lesser magic in the office.

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#198680 - 11/01/06 04:21 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
Can you provide me with any sources on this? I find that to be incredibly interesting.
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#198681 - 11/01/06 04:36 PM Re: "Testosterone Decline in American Males" [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:

There has always been a fear that any society that is too soft on its men will eventually become weak and will be easily conquered. Men have always guarded the idealism of masculinity in part for this reason. There are many today (men and women) who would like to see ideals of masculinity done away with altogether because they believe it leads to wars and violence and has no redeeming attributes. This is, truly, playing with fire.




Speaking of playing with fire. I wonder whether, in the nuclear age, it might not actually be better for everyone if WMDs are in the hands of cold calculating bureaucrats. Testosterone is great if you're fighting a ground war, but ancient virtues aren't always virtues when modern technology is in play.
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#198682 - 11/01/06 08:07 PM Re: Sources. [Re: tovasshi]
Nemo Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12409
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
The Lucifer Principle


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#198683 - 11/01/06 08:14 PM Important Book [Re: Nemo]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
Quote:

The Lucifer Principle






This book should be required reading for all high school seniors in the US.
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#198684 - 11/01/06 08:15 PM Re: Sources. [Re: Nemo]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
Thank you!
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Hi.

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#198685 - 11/01/06 08:18 PM Re: Sources. [Re: tovasshi]
Nemo Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12409
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
You are welcome.

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