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#20108 - 01/10/04 06:18 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: laksefisker]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Aha... Between that explanation and the post about the intentional humor in the CoS's public image, I believe I've gotten the clarification I was after. Thank you.

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#20109 - 01/10/04 06:19 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
laksefisker Offline


Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 1609
Loc: Norway
You are very welcome.
_________________________
"Power without wisdom is terrifying. Wisdom without power is pathetic." -- Jay Wiseman "You cannot enjoy success while dead." -- Colonel Akula Hail Satan! www.sataniclust.com

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#20110 - 01/10/04 06:48 AM How we came to our perspective.
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12493
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
By driving on the freeway.

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#20111 - 01/10/04 12:12 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Professor_Sinister Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 752
Loc: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Quote:

is it really disrespectful to put off spending what little money I have on something I don't need (and still have strong doubts about) until I'm in a more financially stable position? It's certainly on my list, and in fact has been since I first saw the website, but I'm not going to run out and buy it until I've found myself a job. I don't think that's unreasonable.




Not at all. It makes perfect sense.

If buying a paperback is of financial concern, getting a job should be your top priority.

Have you tried looking in your local public library? Occasionally a copy can be found there.


Quote:

Considering someone inferior for believing something one doesn't happen to believe is pretension.




It is only pretension if it is untrue, or unsupportable. You should really find out more before you make up your mind on that.

There are beliefs which are destructive, and those who espouse such beliefs are dangerous to themselves and others. Any religion that seeks to separate belief from action is usually of this variety to begin with, as to go against one's own nature is foolish at best.


If there is a religion in existence who's practitioners do not believe themselves to be superior to all others then I have not yet encountered it.

... and it is not worth encountering, as they would be absolutely correct.

_________________________
-30-

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#20112 - 01/10/04 12:23 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
C_D_McKinna Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 777
Loc: San Diego, CA
Of course results matter, but I'm not talking about results, I'm talking about beliefs.

You seem to be missing something of vital importance here. Belief is not neccesarry in Satanism. When it comes to belief there are two types of poeple. There are those who believe in this or that, and don't believe in this or that. Then are those who know things and don't know things.

Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical sefl-deceit!

Belief and wisdom do not go hand in hand. If you believe in something, then all other possiblities and options are thrown out the window. As Satanist, we concern ourselves with what works vs. what doesn't work. There is no room or need for belief.

For instance, I do not need to "believe" that I am better than everybody else at my new sales job. I know I am, because the numbers demonstrate that. I've consistantly out performed everybody around me. I've done so because I have discovered a system that works.

Beliefs are the issue here, and saying that all people are idiots for believing things that aren't true is indeed a logical extention of saying one person is an idiot for believing things that aren't true.

Believing in things that aren't true is indeed idiotic.

People do have reasons for believing what they believe, and while I may not share those beliefs and may indeed find them ridiculous based on my own experiences, it's not my place to question their reasons.

No? And why not?

It IS my place to question ALL THINGS. And that includes why people do the silly things that they do. Furthermore, it IS my place to judge ALL of my experiences, including the people around me.

I am my own god. That means it is my responsiblity to judge those around me. Yes, sometimes I misjudge people, but you can always correct a judgement. Changing your mind about something is easy. Changing a belief is a bit more tricky...which is why I do without them.

Stupid? Inferior? Well, they seemed just as competent to participate in society as anyone else, possibly more so than some people who hold beliefs that would be considered less ridiculous. So I would have to say no.


I judge people on the results they produce, not by what thier beliefs are. The majority of world leaders subscribe to a major religion. But just because I feel that thier beliefs are misplaced, doesn't mean that I can't learn things from the results they produce.

Results are everything!

Considering someone inferior for believing something one doesn't happen to believe is pretension.

I agree. Judgement should be based on results.

It's certainly on my list, and in fact has been since I first saw the website, but I'm not going to run out and buy it until I've found myself a job. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Nor do I, and I actually think it is a very Satanic decision. Taking care of number one should always come first.

But you might just come to find out that when you do eventually purchase the Satanic Bible, that you will wish you had done so sooner.

Best wishes in your pursuits!


_________________________
Believe Nothing, Test Everything

"Well done is better than well said"

- Benjamin Franklin

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#20113 - 01/10/04 12:47 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

However, the design theme of the website seems to indicate that the CoS works to cultivate an image of "Ooooh, look at us, we're dark and evil and scary," which strikes me as a bit silly and pretentious.




As Dr. LaVey wrote in the Forward to The Devil’s Notebook:

Quote:

I have termed my thought “Satanism” because it is most stimulating under that name. Self-discipline and motivation are effected more easily under stimulating conditions. Satanism means “the opposition” and epitomizes all symbols of nonconformity. Satanism calls for the strong ability to turn a liability into an advantage, to turn alienation into exclusivity. In other words, the reason it’s called Satanism is because it’s fun, it’s accurate, and it’s productive.




Satanism is not any one of it’s elements in isolation, it is a combination of a very specific world-view, ritual, and aesthetic.

It is the conjunction of these elements that is Satanism.

That is what the idiots do not get when they say Satanism is “just” Objectivism, or “just” Nietzscheanism, or “just” whatever. That is like saying pizza is “just” pepperoni, or “just” tomato sauce.

The aesthetic is an integral part of Satanism.

When I first discovered Dr. LaVey’s work, it was as if he had taken everything I was interested in, a philosophical disposition I already possessed, the exact aesthetic sensibilities that I had on my own, and made a religion out of it. Totally on-track.

Most Natural-born Satanists find resonance in the writings of Dr. LaVey, and in the Church of Satan, because they are already that way. Satanists do not “discover” Satanism and all of a sudden “go scary” – they are scary to begin with.

Some things are tongue-in-cheek and deadly serious at the same time. Anyone who cannot wrap their mind around this kind of ambiguity should stay at home.

If you find elements of Satanism do not appeal to you, then you are probably not a Satanist. No big deal. Go do something else.

The Church of Satan does not proselytize or apologize for what we are. Either you are or you are not.

If there is any doubt, then there is no doubt.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#20114 - 01/10/04 02:42 PM Re: How we came to our perspective. [Re: Nemo]
Citizen_Squish Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/27/02
Posts: 1422
Loc: California
Quote:

By driving on the freeway.




Oh yes. Oh, my, yes!

If I ever need a reminder as to how incredibly stupid 99.9% of the "people" out there are, I need only take a quick trip on the freeway.

I'm firmly convinced they want to die.
_________________________
If people had wings, they would die on their backs, buzzing around in little circles.
-Uncle Fester, "Silent Death"

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#20115 - 01/10/04 05:59 PM Why not visit the lounge...? [Re: C_D_McKinna]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Just a note here for Mr. Dinosaur Knight.

I agree with everything that C_D_McKinna (and virtually everyone else) has said here.

More than anything, if you can spare time from your studies or you need to financially, your number one concern should be finding a job. What are you even doing talking to us? At night, you should be resting in preparation for a hard day of pavement pounding!

Finding a menial "college-type" job should be relatively easy. It's just a matter of filling out the most applications, talking to the on-duty managers (if possible) and being persistent until someone asks to interview you - at which time you can dazzle them with your willingness to be "a team player" and maybe even actually work for the money they're offering to pay you.

However, if, after you've turned in your application at that big chain bookstore, you might want to browse the stacks for a copy of The Satanic Bible. Many such big chain bookstores have chairs where you can sit down and flip through a book before purchasing it. (If you've turned in an application you may actually want to do this on a seperate trip, and slip it into another book as a cover.) The Satanic Bible is quite short. As long as you don't look like a hooligan, no one will bother you.

There are simple, low or no cost solutions for many 'problems'...if you THINK about it.

A few hours at Borders/Barnes & Noble/etc. may just answer some of your questions. That way, you won't have to waste our time with hypothetical arguments about 'what Satanism seems like to you'. If it's not 'clicking' after 50 or so pages...maybe it isn't for you. But at least you will have some vague idea about what you're talking about when you try to discuss it.

I appreciate the manner in which you've conducted yourself here so far.

However, your use of the words 'pretentious' and 'silly' are condescending and offensive.

Most importantly, those words imply that you assume that we 'can't come up with the goods'.

My friends here CAN and DO come up with the goods.

CAN you?

We find pretentious people very annoying.

You're assuming that we're posers.

That's not very nice.






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#20116 - 01/10/04 06:10 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
"Ooooh, look at us, we're dark and evil and scary," which strikes me as a bit silly and pretentious.

The word "Satanism" comes with a lot of scary luggage. Why not exploit it for fun and profit, particularly fun? I doubt we're gonna lose it, so we might as well enjoy ourselves and use it.

Also, the frequent references to Satanists as an "Alien Elite" and non-Satanists as "The Herd" seems to indicate an "I'm right any anyone who holds a different viewpoint is inferior" attitude, which automatically sets off alarm bells in my head. As Albert Einstein once said, "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." I firmly believe that to be human is to have flawed perceptions, and thus no one person is qualified to judge the beliefs of another. To attempt to do so is the worst kind of pretension. Of course, most of the other religions of the world (or at least their followers) are equally guilty of this, but after my initially positive reaction to the philosophy presented on the site, I was disappointed to find that Satanism was apparently not an exception.

I used to hold that exact same view, but some encounters with the real world altered my perspective somewhat.

Yes, the "herd vs. elite" rhetoric can get a bit thick at times, and some people over-use it to the point of pretention and absurdity. But, the idea itself is not without its use.

Not all approaches, beliefs, views, and perspectives are created equal. Trying to use a screwdriver to saw a board is obviously not the best approach to use. In the world, many people eagerly court stupidity and other Satanic sins because to chase those sins away would be "difficult" and "scary." Never mind that committing Satanic sins wastes energy and precious time because one has to clean up mess after mess---not committing them, or seeking their opposites, would require mental energy and would require confronting frightening new ideas and changes!

Satanists aim to use saws to cut boards, hammers to pound nails, and screwdrivers to screw in screws. Satanists wear protective wear, gather their materials ahead of time, and learn how to do the project properly before beginning it.

That's what separates us from people of the "herd." We aim for a higher noticeable productivity in the real world.

Unlike other religions, we don't quibble over *spiritual* sinfulness, who is evil and who is good according to AllahJehovahBuddha, and whose soul is so sullied that they'll have it coming to them in the afterlife. Most of those matters don't interest us. We look for real results, real actions, and real productivity in this life and in this world. Spades are called spades, without pretention.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#20117 - 01/10/04 06:20 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
You are right that one's judgments may occasionally be flawed. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time. This is why it's important to be careful and precise in making judgments.

Some Satanists, like some people overall, will be more generous with their judgments, and others will be less. When people here are too generous or not enough, I naturally insert my view and my reasoning on the matter. Views will occasionally differ on how harsh to be in one's judgments towards Joe Bloggs or Jane X.

But, as I said before, the proof is in the pudding, and Satanists will call a spade, a spade. There's no dodging the fact that some people are absolutely stupid--their actions point to this fact, and particularly in the extreme cases, the signs can't be ignored. If someone, say, wins a Darwin Award, or openly displays stupidity in one way or another, Satanists won't beat about the bush when it comes to assessing that person's behavior accordingly.

As for spiritual matters, I probably speak for most of the people here when I say that Satanists are more concerned with the fleshly life than anything that may happen after death or what have you. So, Satanists in general devote very little time, if any at all, to seriously debating metaphysics, because at present, no one knows what happens after death, or whether there's a god, or whether there are real ghosts, demons, and leprechauns. So, Satanists generally prefer to devote most of their time to the "knowns" and to the things in fleshly life that are real, that are tangible, that produce and form tangible results, and that create a real impact.

I don't know about others here, but I speak for myself when I say that when I express annoyance with or dislike of theists and religionists, I am more annoyed with what they DO with their beliefs than the beliefs in and of themselves. The religionists I scorn:

1) Spend all of their time chasing ideas that they can't and most likely won't be able to touch
2) Show decreased competence with regards to duties and actions that really matter, such as doing one's laundry.
3) Are so tied to their ideas and beliefs that they ignore evidence to the contrary, and lack good evidence in favor. Many can't even tell you why they think the way they do.
4) Fall into a state of mental, emotional, and psychological sickness and even insanity because they're so busy pleasing their higher beings and adhering to their spiritual mandates.

If someone holds a belief and doesn't fall into any of the above traps, I generally can respect them and their right to hold their view.

"and pretentious."

I believe you mean the word "frivolous" in this particular context.

And, if one is a student strapped for cash, yes, one does need to budget one's money carefully.

Until you get hold of the 8-some dollars required for a Satanic Bible, remain modest regarding your understanding of Satanism, and continue research of legitimate sources that you can obtain for the time being. But, you already seem to be trying to do this, so emphasizing this lesson may be unnecessary. Oh well, just a reminder.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#20118 - 01/10/04 09:44 PM Thank you! [Re: Svengali]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12493
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Brilliantly expressed!

This posting should be carved in granite above the Church's Door.

Thank you!

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#20119 - 01/12/04 12:00 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
cultivate an image of "Ooooh, look at us, we're dark and evil and scary,"

I don't know where you got that idea.

We enjoy our privacy. I am not out to scare the world and have an audience at my door wanting to know what it's like to be evil.

I find it very difficult to take the religion seriously when as it's cloaked in such silliness.

Good. That's the way I like it. If it scares you off than all the better. Here is a hint: don't take everything so seriously.

Also, the frequent references to Satanists as an "Alien Elite" and non-Satanists as "The Herd" seems to indicate an "I'm right any anyone who holds a different viewpoint is inferior" attitude, which automatically sets off alarm bells in my head.

We are elite. Everything we do you in our lives we take pride in and we do well. We know how to live life and enjoy it. Instead of how the herd lets it eat away at them.

I firmly believe that to be human is to have flawed perceptions, and thus no one person is qualified to judge the beliefs of another.

Everone has a right to judge others. I believe that people do not have the right to push their agendas onto others if it is not asked for. I judge people because they want to be judged, but I will not push my beliefs onto them. That is a waste of my time and effort. I could be doing better things like judging people so I don't have to interact with anyone I don't want to.

I judge people on their actions and achievements not their beliefs or skin color. There is a difference. I give respect when it is earned or when it will be beneficial to me.

Judgement is a quality that is a useful tool when used correctly.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#20120 - 01/12/04 12:19 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
"I am 100% correct in my beliefs and if you disagree with me, you're an idiot," because I don't know that I'm 100% correct. In fact, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that we all believe some things that aren't true, in which case we are all equally idiots. The worlds "pot," "kettle," and "teflon" come to mind.

That is when a person must prove me wrong. If he does not than I will stick to my judgement of them or it.

If a person presents facts and a good working knowledge on a subject that I have a different view on I will take the info and then research it. I will admit when I am wrong and I will absorb new information. That is the process of learning.

"I am 100% correct in my beliefs and if you disagree with me, you're an idiot," because I don't know that I'm 100% correct. In fact, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that we all believe some things that aren't true, in which case we are all equally idiots. The worlds "pot," "kettle," and "teflon" come to mind.

Like so many have already stated. I do care if you are trying to offend me or not. But I do respect your opinion because you have shown respect. I have judged you worthy of my respect until proven otherwise.

I can't justify spending money on something I see as silly and pretentious. That would be irresponsible, and I know how you people feel about matters of responsibility. I happen to feel the same way.

Than don't ask silly questions when the answers are only 8 dollars away from being answered.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#20121 - 01/12/04 12:32 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I do not compare myself to the kinds of people you mentioned, and, dare I say it, I even tend to feel superior to them.

Stop being so guilt driven. Do you wish to lower yourself to those parasites by saying you're their equal?

I am done here. I have given you advice which was not asked for. I apologize to myself for wasting my own time.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#20122 - 01/12/04 11:12 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Professor_Sinister]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11532
Loc: New England, USA
>Have you tried looking in your local public library?

Whoah, I thought I was listening to Vault of the Lost for a moment there!

>If there is a religion in existence who's practitioners do
>not believe themselves to be superior to all others then I
>have not yet encountered it.
>
>... and it is not worth encountering, as they would be
>absolutely correct.

Excellent point, Professor! People who chose to affiliate with religion X, DO have the belief somewhere in their mind that there's something superior about X. They can say that they're tolerant and/or accepting of all other religions, but the bottom line is that anybody who has ever taken the subject of religion seriously (be they Xtians, self-described atheists, Satanists, Muslims, or whatever) believes that their own choice of religion holds, at the very least, something closer to the truth.

And regarding the subject of "Alien Elite", I think Rev. Paradise's FAQ explained this well:

"We use the phrase, "Alien Elite" to describe ourselves. Often, it is the shortsightedness of people that disallows them to comprehend what this phrase means, even if they've read all of our books, magazines, and websites. Typically, they skip the word "alien." A big mistake, considering that it is an important modifier in the term. What it means is that we, as Satanists, are largely alien in the society at large: we do not generally subscribe to the disposable, consumer-obsessed culture that others do, our issues are different, the stands we take are often neither right nor left but something else entirely (one aspect of what we refer to as The Third Side), we question everything in a world that mostly goes along with established thought and rarely inquires as to how or why, and we simply represent something that most do not (some could say that we are not like most) -- all of this is in step with the archetype of Satan which we embrace. And we also embrace this alienation. By living such a pure and undiluted life, we are, in many ways, better than most of the human sheep. By being a minority (and we will always be a minority due to the laws of nature -- she simply does not give all of her gifts to all people) and possessing pragmatic and forward-thinking values that are above the interest of the masses, plus adding the intellect and instinct, the creativity and the resourcefulness, and all of those qualities reflected in our books, we are indeed the Alien Elite. In short, word usage and context matter."
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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