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#20093 - 01/10/04 01:13 AM Observations and questions about Satanism
Anonymous
Unregistered


I recently became exposed to Satanism after self-proclaimed Satanist had made a post on a general discussion message board I often read, asking what people think of Satanism. I followed a link from that thread to www.churchofsatan.com, browsed the site a bit (particularly the theory/practice section), formed a few conclusions based on my observations, and posted them accordingly on the aforementioned board. While my observations were not meant to offend, the Satanist who posted the original message apparently did take offense and responded in what struck me as a very immature manner, leaving my impressions disappointingly unaddressed. I'm posting the same observations here in hopes that someone with a bit more maturity will be willing to assist me in furthering my understanding of this religion.

The philosophy of Satanism expressed in the Nine Satanic Statements, Eleven Satanic Rules, and Nine Satanic Sins seem very well grounded in simple common sense, which is far more than can be said for most religions. However, the design theme of the website seems to indicate that the CoS works to cultivate an image of "Ooooh, look at us, we're dark and evil and scary," which strikes me as a bit silly and pretentious. While there is certainly a lot of wisdom in to be found here (I especially like "do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself"), I find it very difficult to take the religion seriously when as it's cloaked in such silliness.

Also, the frequent references to Satanists as an "Alien Elite" and non-Satanists as "The Herd" seems to indicate an "I'm right any anyone who holds a different viewpoint is inferior" attitude, which automatically sets off alarm bells in my head. As Albert Einstein once said, "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." I firmly believe that to be human is to have flawed perceptions, and thus no one person is qualified to judge the beliefs of another. To attempt to do so is the worst kind of pretension. Of course, most of the other religions of the world (or at least their followers) are equally guilty of this, but after my initially positive reaction to the philosophy presented on the site, I was disappointed to find that Satanism was apparently not an exception.

Again, it's important to note that I am not trying to offend anybody with my observations, I'm merely stating them clearly and honestly so that readers here can understand them and address them appropriately. Admittedly, I do see the CoS as a pretentious and silly organization, but my hope is that someone will take the time to explain to me how this is not the case, thus increasing my understanding and appreciation for this religion and its philosophy.

Of course, if I do get flamed to kingdom come, that'll tell me everything I need to know as well.

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#20094 - 01/10/04 01:39 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10568
Loc: England
Well, Sir, first and foremost you need to read The Satanic Bible, which would lay the philosophy bare for you.

I don't think anyone would deny that they are human and suffer human foibles. It's how one deals with, and learns from the vast experience of living.

There is something which could be refered to as a "bullshit filter."

That is to say that some of the imagery serves to dispell the superstitious or pious idiots.

It could also be called a bit of fun.

Let's face it. We only get one shot at life; above all we should each make it fun.

Read The Satanic Bible - you'll much more easliy understand where people are coming from once you have done so.

It can be purchased from almost any good book shop (usually in the occult or new age section ) or you can get it from:

Church Of Satan Emporium
_________________________
"u.v.ray is truly an outsider, yet he's also a member of a club that includes greats such as Bukowski, Fante, and Salinger"

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#20095 - 01/10/04 01:42 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10122
However, the design theme of the website seems to indicate that the CoS works to cultivate an image of "Ooooh, look at us, we're dark and evil and scary," which strikes me as a bit silly and pretentious.

Since Satanism is in fact taking Satan as the primary symbol of our religion, it would rather make sense that it would be accompanied by some "dark" imagery, no? Actually, I don't see anything spooky about the CoS site. Its black on red, and has (surprise!) images of Satan and demons. Not to mention it uses lots of purple graphics...seems to me to be more of a regal scheme, but that's my opinion. Actually, isn't this just a matter of taste anyway? This is a bit like saying Satanism is probably for kids, because several members are in their early twenties. That is, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I firmly believe that to be human is to have flawed perceptions, and thus no one person is qualified to judge the beliefs of another. To attempt to do so is the worst kind of pretension.

The most obvious flaw in this logic is that it apparently stipulates that one must be flawless, or perfect, in order to judge another; without stating such, because that is a much harder statement to support. Why should you think so? I am not an expert on cars, but when one of mine breaks down I judge it to be either worthy of repair or worthy of the scrap heap. Despite my limited knowledge (a flaw in my knowledge of cars, so to speak), I am capable of making right decisions based on some experience. Therefore, since I do not view humans as intrinsically elevated above anything else in the world, I am also, with my imperfect knowledge of humans in general, and of individuals I would judge, able to make a right judgement when sufficient evidence presents itself.

For example, I readily judge those who commit criminal acts against other men. They may do the same to me someday, and based on my knowledge, I judge them fit to be punished. As for how this related to religion (as you brought up this example), based on my knowledge of other religions, and my knowledge of reality as opposed to spirituality, I judge that their religious beliefs include a lot of really stupid ideas, including some that I find dangerous to my own personal and social goals.

I would infer that you mean to think that Satanists are "anti-Christian" in the sense that we might actually put effort into countering this establishment. I don't really care to eliminate Christianity myself, at least in the religious sense. I do wish to see its influence on my society ended, as I deem it to be counter-productive. As an example, I would like to see laws banning "sodomy" lifted, and alter laws that only permit heterosexual, single-partner marraiges. There is no social reason for this structure, and it needs to be changed. Christians would not like this...hence the need to remove their social influence.

I am not trying to offend anybody with my observations

Would it matter if you were? Certainly not to me. I wasn't forced to read this in the first place (Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself), I was certainly not forced to reply to it, and further, even if you thought I was a real asshole, it wouldn't alter my life a bit. You are free to think I'm full of shit, but as I'm comfortable with myself, it shouldn't affect me at all should it?

However, I will say this: I strongly advise you read the Satanic Bible before making further posts here, or making further assessment of our religious tenets. The Church of Satan homepage is a primer, and largely consists of material best appreciated after the Satanic Bible, our basic text, has been read and understood.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#20096 - 01/10/04 02:07 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
C_D_McKinna Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 777
Loc: San Diego, CA
Your concerns are relavant.

First, concerning the "sillyness" in which we cloak ourselves, you must understand that most people on this planet are very much intensely afraid of "evil."

Satanism use that fear as a filter. We do not wear our ritual robes at the local Denny's, or go parading about how "evil" we are. Yet at the same time, we definately don't want those who are "scared of the dark."

There is a title in the Satanic Bible that deals with your concerns. I strongly suggest that you read it. In a nutshell, dogma has it's place.

As far as "I'm right any anyone who holds a different viewpoint is inferior...." Right and wrong are not an issue in Satanism. If it works it works, if not, then do something else until you find something that does.

People can believe anything they want, but ultimately, unless those beliefs are producing results, they are irrelivant and useless. Satanism does without the believing and goes straight for the results. It is your life, and from your point of view, nothing else should be more important.

As Satanist, we are naturally different than those around us, thus the "alien." We also strive to make our lives, the very best we can possibly make them. Thus, the "elite."

Thats just how things are.




_________________________
Believe Nothing, Test Everything

"Well done is better than well said"

- Benjamin Franklin

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#20097 - 01/10/04 02:37 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You're probably right about the web design thing: It's entirely a matter to taste, and it's unrealistic to expect someone to come along and talk me out of my own opinion on matters of aesthetics. So we'll just let that one go.

On the topic of making judgments, I don't dispute that we all judge others, nor that it is wrong to do so. After all, my whole post was about my own personal judgments based on my initial observations of the CoS. My point, and admittedly this was not as clear in my first post as it should have been, was that our personal judgments may be wrong. Yes, we can make assessments based on current knowledge and past experience, but there is always the possiblily of error. I don't feel I'm qualified to say "I am 100% correct in my beliefs and if you disagree with me, you're an idiot," because I don't know that I'm 100% correct. In fact, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that we all believe some things that aren't true, in which case we are all equally idiots. The worlds "pot," "kettle," and "teflon" come to mind.

I felt it necessary to emphasize my wish to not offend after I did apparently offend the Satanist at the other message board I alluded to. She seemed to think that I was attacking her religion, when I was merely expressing my observations about it (which, of course, was exactly what she asked people for). I wanted to make sure it was understood here that no offense was meant, and both of the replies I've recieved so far have been considerably more mature than hers. I sincerely thank you for that.

As for reading the Satanic Bible, unless I come across a free copy, that's not likely any time soon. It's not that I'm uninterested, but being a broke, unemployed student, I can't justify spending money on something I see as silly and pretentious. That would be irresponsible, and I know how you people feel about matters of responsibility. I happen to feel the same way.


Edited by DinosaurKnight (01/10/04 02:42 AM)

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#20098 - 01/10/04 03:09 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10122
I think it's a pretty safe assumption that we all believe some things that aren't true, in which case we are all equally idiots

Again, taking a reasonable idea way too far.

Sure, I probably hold as true a couple of things that aren't true; perhaps not even in a philosophical sense. I would imagine in a few decades some of the science I currently subscribe to will be overturned as false.

However, here is where I draw the line. I am not on the same level as the person who huffs gasoline, who drives 90 mph in the snow, who drinks himself to death, who cannot even manage to apply what skills he does have to make himself productive instead of a drain on society, whether he be a welfare recipient or a basement stoner. I am not "equally an idiot." Anyone else is free to compare themselves to the likes of these cretins, but I refrain from it.

In all seriousness, I don't think we're on the same page at all. I do see myself as superior, and I have good reason to think so. Results matter. I get results. I do think the world revolves around me, at least my world does. I don't expect others to likewise recognize me as a god unless I prove to them that it is an earned title. If you don't think I've earned it, you're welcome to whatever other gods want your adoration.

As for the Satanic BIble, its available new for under $7, and often found on eBay for a buck or two. If you really can't come up with a buck or two, or you really don't care that much...well, as I see, everyone has been respectful in answering your inquiry voluntarily; why not likewise show you can take the respectful option?
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#20099 - 01/10/04 03:32 AM On judging....
Wile_E_Quixote Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 2493
Satanic judgement in a general way is not based on some arbitrary standards that someone has thought up. This isn't the flawed eugenics of the Nazis. Nature judges people worthy or not worthy by the process known as Natural Selection. This is what the Satanist uses as the ultimate judgement for a person's character. Whether they sink or swim out in the real world. Talk is cheap. Your actions provide your own Satanic judgement of worth.

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#20100 - 01/10/04 04:00 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
After initially wanting to choke and retch and gasp at the stifling ignorance of this post, I figure you deserve a civilised response instead of the typical vitriol. You sound intelligent, but I don't like to make assumptions.

Number one. Not all people that claim to be Satanists and point at the CoS website, are Satanists. We know nothing of this female here, she may or may not be a Satanist. And not everyone that holds a card is a Satanist. And her activity of sticking her neck out and proclaiming that she is a Satanist was an act of stupidity on her part as far as I can tell. When one plays the martyr, one should expect to get burnt at the stake.

Here is a link to the CoS Chatroom Policy. With a little bit of reading between the lines, one could transfer those very same policies right on over to forums and bulletin boards.

CoS Chatroom policy.

>>I'm right any anyone who holds a different viewpoint is inferior" attitude, which automatically sets off alarm bells in my head.<<

Satanists ARE the Alien Elite because the members of the CoS got the goods to back it all up. Each and every Reverend and Preistess is in the position they are in because they went out and earned that respect in the Real World(tm). And for the majority of the Satanists on this board, they also have the goods to back up that title of "Alien Elite". It's arrogance that comes from actually being superior and not just acting superiour.

>>However, the design theme of the website seems to indicate that the CoS works to cultivate an image of "Ooooh, look at us, we're dark and evil and scary," which strikes me as a bit silly and pretentious.<<

Haven't much of a sense of humor, do you? It's "dark, evil, and scary" because it happens to project a particular mental image that scares away people that would waste the CoS's time and Satanists time. It's quite useful. Read The Satanic Bible and you might just come to realise the purpose behind all the "Satanic kitcsh".

>>I do see the CoS as a pretentious and silly organization<<

And I see you as a pseudo-intellectual that just skimmed the surface of Satanism and made a snap decision about it, and it's members. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for arguments sake.

I suspect you probably lost your little flame war, with that unidentified female Satanist on that other message board. If this is the reason. Don't waste our time. Satanists don't expect others to relate to us. Satanists don't even expect to relate to one another. And she was a fool for sticking her neck out. If she got it chopped off, she had it coming.

I sense an aura of superiority about you as well. You have come in here with an attitude of "These guys are just a joke so I'm gonna bait them and get flamed to prove a point." And to quote yourself "Of course, if I do get flamed to kingdom come, that'll tell me everything I need to know as well." That speaks volumes about your intentions here.

I stronly suspect that your mind is already made up about the CoS and Satanists. If this is the case, go away or we will follow those "Rules of the Earth" and treat you cruelly and without mercy.

On the otherhand. If you wish to learn something, spend the 8$ pittance to read what Dr. LaVey has to say. The least you can do is give the man a chance to tell you what Satanism is all about before going off half-cocked and making baseless generalisations about the organisation.


Edited by Felstorm (01/10/04 04:09 AM)
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

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#20101 - 01/10/04 04:14 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
You are right, the aestethics and symbology used by Satanists is meant to say "Ooooh, look at us, we're dark and evil and scary"

And we indeed are!

But if your perception stops there, you are just looking at the surface. There is a lot more to us that the "spooky look"! Much more! But that you have to find for yourself, if your interest is genuine enough as to continue exploring our religion. A good start is to read The Satanic Bible.

Also, when you mention how silly all the "evil and scary" web design looks to you, you are missing one important element on the equation: Satanist's sense of humor!
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#20102 - 01/10/04 04:38 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Of course results matter, but I'm not talking about results, I'm talking about beliefs. I think that was made quite clear in my first post. Of course people who habitually engage in reckless, self-destructive behavior are idiots; I do not dispute that. I do not compare myself to the kinds of people you mentioned, and, dare I say it, I even tend to feel superior to them. But I'm not talking about them. Beliefs are the issue here, and saying that all people are idiots for believing things that aren't true is indeed a logical extention of saying one person is an idiot for believing things that aren't true. For the record, I don't believe either, I was merely trying to illustrate my point. People do have reasons for believing what they believe, and while I may not share those beliefs and may indeed find them ridiculous based on my own experiences, it's not my place to question their reasons. That would be a textbook definition of the word "pretension," which, of course, is one of the Satanic Sins. I've had the misfortune of running across people who actually believe they are the reincarnated spirits of dragons and elves and such. Ridiculous? I certainly think so. Stupid? Inferior? Well, they seemed just as competent to participate in society as anyone else, possibly more so than some people who hold beliefs that would be considered less ridiculous. So I would have to say no.

Of course, it's entirely possible that the perceptions which led me to these conclusions were false (which is why I made a post expressing these observations and requesting clarification in the first place), in which case we're essentially arguing semantics and are likely more in agreement than either of us currently realize. Making assessments of people based on results is common sense. Considering someone inferior for believing something one doesn't happen to believe is pretension.

Finally, yes, everyone here has been respectful in answering my inquiry, and quite obviously I do have an interest in learning more about Satanism (or else I wouldn't be here), but is it really disrespectful to put off spending what little money I have on something I don't need (and still have strong doubts about) until I'm in a more financially stable position? It's certainly on my list, and in fact has been since I first saw the website, but I'm not going to run out and buy it until I've found myself a job. I don't think that's unreasonable.


Edited by DinosaurKnight (01/10/04 04:57 AM)

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#20103 - 01/10/04 05:26 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Old_Pig]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ah, so it is supposed to be funny. There was a part of me that suspected it might be. Having it confirmed significantly cuts down on the percieved pretention. You can't be pretensiously silly if you know you're being silly.

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#20104 - 01/10/04 05:30 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
chumchwalla Offline


Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 33
Actually, Dinosaur Knight you may want to try reading the "Devils Notebook" first. Especially the chapter "Let Me Entertain You." You may find it fitting and rather appropriate to this topic.

Cheers,

chumchwalla

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#20105 - 01/10/04 05:32 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Stanton_Vetalas Offline


Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 240
Loc: Teh 518
This is so rediculous.

The first thing I must say is that if you want to even pretend to be so interested in something you should AT LEAST read its most basic and important text. You don't say you're interested in learning about world issues and not read a news paper, you don't say your'e interested in Islam and not read the Qu'Ran. It's illogical and will lead the people who are involved with those things to think that you're nothing more than a simple waste of time (and so far that's exactly what you've proven to be).

What you need to do is stop trying to clarify who you think are idiots, and stop being one yourself. You hear the word Satanism, read a site that summarizes the ideas of an entire religion/philosophy, come here and pretend you are a natural born religious sophisto. And to top it all off you come with the prerequisite that we're all pretentious/silly, and hope that we flame the hell out of you so your precious little point can be proven.

A summarized view of an entire religion does not mean you now magically hold everything there is to know about it, AND all of its followers.

Read the bible, or let it go.

This is a point that has been driven under very deeply, but I'll say it here again--
They say Satanists are "born, and not made". If you were Satanist you would have realized it by now, and not come here criticizing. With that settled, I'll point out what was said before, we don't expect everyone to know or understand us, what we believe or why we believe it. So again I say, Let.It.Go.



Thank you for your time.

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#20106 - 01/10/04 05:55 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
laksefisker Offline


Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 1609
Loc: Norway
There is a difference between holding on to a belief because it is the logical extension of your past experiences and knowledge, and holding on to it because it is a crutch without which you would fall.

A banal example: if I believe some football team is going to win the match because the team in question has proven itself to be quite skillful while the opposing team has not, and another person believes the opposing team is going to win because he wouldn't cope with existence if he didn't, that would make Me superior to that other person. Simply because he needed his belief to function, while I didn't.

The same applies to religions as well. What separates Satanism from all other religions is that Satanism offers no crutch on which to support oneself. This is why Satanists are the Alien Elite. And by the way - just so you know - not all Satanists know that they are, in fact, Satanists. These are people who live according to Satanic philosophy, but don't know about it (or do, but choose not to take on the label). We call them de facto Satanists. There exists no official list on who these are thought to be, but frequently I hear names like Benjamin Franklin, George Carlin and others I don't remember right now mentioned.
_________________________
"Power without wisdom is terrifying. Wisdom without power is pathetic." -- Jay Wiseman "You cannot enjoy success while dead." -- Colonel Akula Hail Satan! www.sataniclust.com

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#20107 - 01/10/04 06:07 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
vrspectre Offline


Registered: 11/14/01
Posts: 1616
Loc: Portland area, OR USA
I can’t speak for everyone here, just my own self.

You speak of beliefs.

There are a couple of things I would like to toss out for you.

You seem to be thinking that we sit in judgment of all other religions. We do not. We have simply found other people that happen to meet with our way of thinking and named ourselves. Satanism is just a word that denotes a group of people that happen to share a few good ideas. Other people have found this in other religions, hinduism, xianity, muslims. I personally could never fit myself into the mold that these religions demand of their followers. Just as many of their followers could never fit into the mold of Satanism. You see, every person is “born” with a certain way of viewing the world, a certain way of processing information inside of their minds, it is that nature the depicts what path of life they would be most happy with. If it’s Satanism fine, but if it’s not, then find what suits you the best and be the best at that. For some, the most Satanic thing they could do is become an xian, because that is where they best fit. Just as “Satanists are born, not made” so are xians, and muslims, and whateverelseisms.


Beliefs are exactly what is wrong with the world. People fight and kill for their beliefs (The Nazis WWII, The Great Crusades, etc.). They throw out all logic for the sake of their beliefs. They believe simply for the sake of believing. I feel foolish for quoting a movie, but whatever.

I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limits growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant. That was one thing the Man hated - still life. He wanted everyone to be as enthralled with living as He was. – Rufus – Dogma

When beliefs supplant your thoughts you have a problem, and that is what is wrong with most of the religions out there. They don’t recognize this simple fact. Their beliefs are laid in stone, thousands and thousands of years ago, and they never change with the times.


The “Alien Elite.” I am elite. I am better than everyone else out there, well most people at least. There are very few people who find their niche in life and live there. There are very few people who are free to be who they are. Most of the people in the world have their beliefs because they were told to have them. They don’t think for themselves. They don’t realize that there is some other place out there that would make them freer to be happy, instead they hold themselves to a set of standards they can’t possibly meet and fake their joy in life and all it’s wonders. Why do they do this? Because they are afraid. Afraid of stepping out into the real world and taking a risk. Changing your lifestyle to match your true nature is not an easy job, sometimes there is great pain in the removal of the unneeded crap. Life isn’t supposed to be easy, but when you find out who you truly are the freedom you have is incredible and all the pain is worth it.


All of this I discovered while reading TSB (The Satanic Bible). It’s quite a good book and explains much more that I simply don’t have time to cover tonight. If you can’t afford it then check it out at the library. Most libraries have them, or ask your friends, chances are you know someone who owns a copy of it. I remember my poor college days $8 is what 4 meals right there are McDonalds.
_________________________
god hates fags, but Satan is always HORNY. - Jack Malebranche

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#20108 - 01/10/04 06:18 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: laksefisker]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Aha... Between that explanation and the post about the intentional humor in the CoS's public image, I believe I've gotten the clarification I was after. Thank you.

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#20109 - 01/10/04 06:19 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
laksefisker Offline


Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 1609
Loc: Norway
You are very welcome.
_________________________
"Power without wisdom is terrifying. Wisdom without power is pathetic." -- Jay Wiseman "You cannot enjoy success while dead." -- Colonel Akula Hail Satan! www.sataniclust.com

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#20110 - 01/10/04 06:48 AM How we came to our perspective.
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12551
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
By driving on the freeway.

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#20111 - 01/10/04 12:12 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Professor_Sinister Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 752
Loc: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Quote:

is it really disrespectful to put off spending what little money I have on something I don't need (and still have strong doubts about) until I'm in a more financially stable position? It's certainly on my list, and in fact has been since I first saw the website, but I'm not going to run out and buy it until I've found myself a job. I don't think that's unreasonable.




Not at all. It makes perfect sense.

If buying a paperback is of financial concern, getting a job should be your top priority.

Have you tried looking in your local public library? Occasionally a copy can be found there.


Quote:

Considering someone inferior for believing something one doesn't happen to believe is pretension.




It is only pretension if it is untrue, or unsupportable. You should really find out more before you make up your mind on that.

There are beliefs which are destructive, and those who espouse such beliefs are dangerous to themselves and others. Any religion that seeks to separate belief from action is usually of this variety to begin with, as to go against one's own nature is foolish at best.


If there is a religion in existence who's practitioners do not believe themselves to be superior to all others then I have not yet encountered it.

... and it is not worth encountering, as they would be absolutely correct.

_________________________
-30-

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#20112 - 01/10/04 12:23 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
C_D_McKinna Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 777
Loc: San Diego, CA
Of course results matter, but I'm not talking about results, I'm talking about beliefs.

You seem to be missing something of vital importance here. Belief is not neccesarry in Satanism. When it comes to belief there are two types of poeple. There are those who believe in this or that, and don't believe in this or that. Then are those who know things and don't know things.

Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical sefl-deceit!

Belief and wisdom do not go hand in hand. If you believe in something, then all other possiblities and options are thrown out the window. As Satanist, we concern ourselves with what works vs. what doesn't work. There is no room or need for belief.

For instance, I do not need to "believe" that I am better than everybody else at my new sales job. I know I am, because the numbers demonstrate that. I've consistantly out performed everybody around me. I've done so because I have discovered a system that works.

Beliefs are the issue here, and saying that all people are idiots for believing things that aren't true is indeed a logical extention of saying one person is an idiot for believing things that aren't true.

Believing in things that aren't true is indeed idiotic.

People do have reasons for believing what they believe, and while I may not share those beliefs and may indeed find them ridiculous based on my own experiences, it's not my place to question their reasons.

No? And why not?

It IS my place to question ALL THINGS. And that includes why people do the silly things that they do. Furthermore, it IS my place to judge ALL of my experiences, including the people around me.

I am my own god. That means it is my responsiblity to judge those around me. Yes, sometimes I misjudge people, but you can always correct a judgement. Changing your mind about something is easy. Changing a belief is a bit more tricky...which is why I do without them.

Stupid? Inferior? Well, they seemed just as competent to participate in society as anyone else, possibly more so than some people who hold beliefs that would be considered less ridiculous. So I would have to say no.


I judge people on the results they produce, not by what thier beliefs are. The majority of world leaders subscribe to a major religion. But just because I feel that thier beliefs are misplaced, doesn't mean that I can't learn things from the results they produce.

Results are everything!

Considering someone inferior for believing something one doesn't happen to believe is pretension.

I agree. Judgement should be based on results.

It's certainly on my list, and in fact has been since I first saw the website, but I'm not going to run out and buy it until I've found myself a job. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Nor do I, and I actually think it is a very Satanic decision. Taking care of number one should always come first.

But you might just come to find out that when you do eventually purchase the Satanic Bible, that you will wish you had done so sooner.

Best wishes in your pursuits!


_________________________
Believe Nothing, Test Everything

"Well done is better than well said"

- Benjamin Franklin

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#20113 - 01/10/04 12:47 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

However, the design theme of the website seems to indicate that the CoS works to cultivate an image of "Ooooh, look at us, we're dark and evil and scary," which strikes me as a bit silly and pretentious.




As Dr. LaVey wrote in the Forward to The Devil’s Notebook:

Quote:

I have termed my thought “Satanism” because it is most stimulating under that name. Self-discipline and motivation are effected more easily under stimulating conditions. Satanism means “the opposition” and epitomizes all symbols of nonconformity. Satanism calls for the strong ability to turn a liability into an advantage, to turn alienation into exclusivity. In other words, the reason it’s called Satanism is because it’s fun, it’s accurate, and it’s productive.




Satanism is not any one of it’s elements in isolation, it is a combination of a very specific world-view, ritual, and aesthetic.

It is the conjunction of these elements that is Satanism.

That is what the idiots do not get when they say Satanism is “just” Objectivism, or “just” Nietzscheanism, or “just” whatever. That is like saying pizza is “just” pepperoni, or “just” tomato sauce.

The aesthetic is an integral part of Satanism.

When I first discovered Dr. LaVey’s work, it was as if he had taken everything I was interested in, a philosophical disposition I already possessed, the exact aesthetic sensibilities that I had on my own, and made a religion out of it. Totally on-track.

Most Natural-born Satanists find resonance in the writings of Dr. LaVey, and in the Church of Satan, because they are already that way. Satanists do not “discover” Satanism and all of a sudden “go scary” – they are scary to begin with.

Some things are tongue-in-cheek and deadly serious at the same time. Anyone who cannot wrap their mind around this kind of ambiguity should stay at home.

If you find elements of Satanism do not appeal to you, then you are probably not a Satanist. No big deal. Go do something else.

The Church of Satan does not proselytize or apologize for what we are. Either you are or you are not.

If there is any doubt, then there is no doubt.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#20114 - 01/10/04 02:42 PM Re: How we came to our perspective. [Re: Nemo]
Citizen_Squish Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/27/02
Posts: 1422
Loc: California
Quote:

By driving on the freeway.




Oh yes. Oh, my, yes!

If I ever need a reminder as to how incredibly stupid 99.9% of the "people" out there are, I need only take a quick trip on the freeway.

I'm firmly convinced they want to die.
_________________________
If people had wings, they would die on their backs, buzzing around in little circles.
-Uncle Fester, "Silent Death"

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#20115 - 01/10/04 05:59 PM Why not visit the lounge...? [Re: C_D_McKinna]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Just a note here for Mr. Dinosaur Knight.

I agree with everything that C_D_McKinna (and virtually everyone else) has said here.

More than anything, if you can spare time from your studies or you need to financially, your number one concern should be finding a job. What are you even doing talking to us? At night, you should be resting in preparation for a hard day of pavement pounding!

Finding a menial "college-type" job should be relatively easy. It's just a matter of filling out the most applications, talking to the on-duty managers (if possible) and being persistent until someone asks to interview you - at which time you can dazzle them with your willingness to be "a team player" and maybe even actually work for the money they're offering to pay you.

However, if, after you've turned in your application at that big chain bookstore, you might want to browse the stacks for a copy of The Satanic Bible. Many such big chain bookstores have chairs where you can sit down and flip through a book before purchasing it. (If you've turned in an application you may actually want to do this on a seperate trip, and slip it into another book as a cover.) The Satanic Bible is quite short. As long as you don't look like a hooligan, no one will bother you.

There are simple, low or no cost solutions for many 'problems'...if you THINK about it.

A few hours at Borders/Barnes & Noble/etc. may just answer some of your questions. That way, you won't have to waste our time with hypothetical arguments about 'what Satanism seems like to you'. If it's not 'clicking' after 50 or so pages...maybe it isn't for you. But at least you will have some vague idea about what you're talking about when you try to discuss it.

I appreciate the manner in which you've conducted yourself here so far.

However, your use of the words 'pretentious' and 'silly' are condescending and offensive.

Most importantly, those words imply that you assume that we 'can't come up with the goods'.

My friends here CAN and DO come up with the goods.

CAN you?

We find pretentious people very annoying.

You're assuming that we're posers.

That's not very nice.






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#20116 - 01/10/04 06:10 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
"Ooooh, look at us, we're dark and evil and scary," which strikes me as a bit silly and pretentious.

The word "Satanism" comes with a lot of scary luggage. Why not exploit it for fun and profit, particularly fun? I doubt we're gonna lose it, so we might as well enjoy ourselves and use it.

Also, the frequent references to Satanists as an "Alien Elite" and non-Satanists as "The Herd" seems to indicate an "I'm right any anyone who holds a different viewpoint is inferior" attitude, which automatically sets off alarm bells in my head. As Albert Einstein once said, "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." I firmly believe that to be human is to have flawed perceptions, and thus no one person is qualified to judge the beliefs of another. To attempt to do so is the worst kind of pretension. Of course, most of the other religions of the world (or at least their followers) are equally guilty of this, but after my initially positive reaction to the philosophy presented on the site, I was disappointed to find that Satanism was apparently not an exception.

I used to hold that exact same view, but some encounters with the real world altered my perspective somewhat.

Yes, the "herd vs. elite" rhetoric can get a bit thick at times, and some people over-use it to the point of pretention and absurdity. But, the idea itself is not without its use.

Not all approaches, beliefs, views, and perspectives are created equal. Trying to use a screwdriver to saw a board is obviously not the best approach to use. In the world, many people eagerly court stupidity and other Satanic sins because to chase those sins away would be "difficult" and "scary." Never mind that committing Satanic sins wastes energy and precious time because one has to clean up mess after mess---not committing them, or seeking their opposites, would require mental energy and would require confronting frightening new ideas and changes!

Satanists aim to use saws to cut boards, hammers to pound nails, and screwdrivers to screw in screws. Satanists wear protective wear, gather their materials ahead of time, and learn how to do the project properly before beginning it.

That's what separates us from people of the "herd." We aim for a higher noticeable productivity in the real world.

Unlike other religions, we don't quibble over *spiritual* sinfulness, who is evil and who is good according to AllahJehovahBuddha, and whose soul is so sullied that they'll have it coming to them in the afterlife. Most of those matters don't interest us. We look for real results, real actions, and real productivity in this life and in this world. Spades are called spades, without pretention.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#20117 - 01/10/04 06:20 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
You are right that one's judgments may occasionally be flawed. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time. This is why it's important to be careful and precise in making judgments.

Some Satanists, like some people overall, will be more generous with their judgments, and others will be less. When people here are too generous or not enough, I naturally insert my view and my reasoning on the matter. Views will occasionally differ on how harsh to be in one's judgments towards Joe Bloggs or Jane X.

But, as I said before, the proof is in the pudding, and Satanists will call a spade, a spade. There's no dodging the fact that some people are absolutely stupid--their actions point to this fact, and particularly in the extreme cases, the signs can't be ignored. If someone, say, wins a Darwin Award, or openly displays stupidity in one way or another, Satanists won't beat about the bush when it comes to assessing that person's behavior accordingly.

As for spiritual matters, I probably speak for most of the people here when I say that Satanists are more concerned with the fleshly life than anything that may happen after death or what have you. So, Satanists in general devote very little time, if any at all, to seriously debating metaphysics, because at present, no one knows what happens after death, or whether there's a god, or whether there are real ghosts, demons, and leprechauns. So, Satanists generally prefer to devote most of their time to the "knowns" and to the things in fleshly life that are real, that are tangible, that produce and form tangible results, and that create a real impact.

I don't know about others here, but I speak for myself when I say that when I express annoyance with or dislike of theists and religionists, I am more annoyed with what they DO with their beliefs than the beliefs in and of themselves. The religionists I scorn:

1) Spend all of their time chasing ideas that they can't and most likely won't be able to touch
2) Show decreased competence with regards to duties and actions that really matter, such as doing one's laundry.
3) Are so tied to their ideas and beliefs that they ignore evidence to the contrary, and lack good evidence in favor. Many can't even tell you why they think the way they do.
4) Fall into a state of mental, emotional, and psychological sickness and even insanity because they're so busy pleasing their higher beings and adhering to their spiritual mandates.

If someone holds a belief and doesn't fall into any of the above traps, I generally can respect them and their right to hold their view.

"and pretentious."

I believe you mean the word "frivolous" in this particular context.

And, if one is a student strapped for cash, yes, one does need to budget one's money carefully.

Until you get hold of the 8-some dollars required for a Satanic Bible, remain modest regarding your understanding of Satanism, and continue research of legitimate sources that you can obtain for the time being. But, you already seem to be trying to do this, so emphasizing this lesson may be unnecessary. Oh well, just a reminder.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#20118 - 01/10/04 09:44 PM Thank you! [Re: Svengali]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12551
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Brilliantly expressed!

This posting should be carved in granite above the Church's Door.

Thank you!

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#20119 - 01/12/04 12:00 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
cultivate an image of "Ooooh, look at us, we're dark and evil and scary,"

I don't know where you got that idea.

We enjoy our privacy. I am not out to scare the world and have an audience at my door wanting to know what it's like to be evil.

I find it very difficult to take the religion seriously when as it's cloaked in such silliness.

Good. That's the way I like it. If it scares you off than all the better. Here is a hint: don't take everything so seriously.

Also, the frequent references to Satanists as an "Alien Elite" and non-Satanists as "The Herd" seems to indicate an "I'm right any anyone who holds a different viewpoint is inferior" attitude, which automatically sets off alarm bells in my head.

We are elite. Everything we do you in our lives we take pride in and we do well. We know how to live life and enjoy it. Instead of how the herd lets it eat away at them.

I firmly believe that to be human is to have flawed perceptions, and thus no one person is qualified to judge the beliefs of another.

Everone has a right to judge others. I believe that people do not have the right to push their agendas onto others if it is not asked for. I judge people because they want to be judged, but I will not push my beliefs onto them. That is a waste of my time and effort. I could be doing better things like judging people so I don't have to interact with anyone I don't want to.

I judge people on their actions and achievements not their beliefs or skin color. There is a difference. I give respect when it is earned or when it will be beneficial to me.

Judgement is a quality that is a useful tool when used correctly.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#20120 - 01/12/04 12:19 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
"I am 100% correct in my beliefs and if you disagree with me, you're an idiot," because I don't know that I'm 100% correct. In fact, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that we all believe some things that aren't true, in which case we are all equally idiots. The worlds "pot," "kettle," and "teflon" come to mind.

That is when a person must prove me wrong. If he does not than I will stick to my judgement of them or it.

If a person presents facts and a good working knowledge on a subject that I have a different view on I will take the info and then research it. I will admit when I am wrong and I will absorb new information. That is the process of learning.

"I am 100% correct in my beliefs and if you disagree with me, you're an idiot," because I don't know that I'm 100% correct. In fact, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that we all believe some things that aren't true, in which case we are all equally idiots. The worlds "pot," "kettle," and "teflon" come to mind.

Like so many have already stated. I do care if you are trying to offend me or not. But I do respect your opinion because you have shown respect. I have judged you worthy of my respect until proven otherwise.

I can't justify spending money on something I see as silly and pretentious. That would be irresponsible, and I know how you people feel about matters of responsibility. I happen to feel the same way.

Than don't ask silly questions when the answers are only 8 dollars away from being answered.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#20121 - 01/12/04 12:32 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I do not compare myself to the kinds of people you mentioned, and, dare I say it, I even tend to feel superior to them.

Stop being so guilt driven. Do you wish to lower yourself to those parasites by saying you're their equal?

I am done here. I have given you advice which was not asked for. I apologize to myself for wasting my own time.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#20122 - 01/12/04 11:12 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Professor_Sinister]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11552
Loc: New England, USA
>Have you tried looking in your local public library?

Whoah, I thought I was listening to Vault of the Lost for a moment there!

>If there is a religion in existence who's practitioners do
>not believe themselves to be superior to all others then I
>have not yet encountered it.
>
>... and it is not worth encountering, as they would be
>absolutely correct.

Excellent point, Professor! People who chose to affiliate with religion X, DO have the belief somewhere in their mind that there's something superior about X. They can say that they're tolerant and/or accepting of all other religions, but the bottom line is that anybody who has ever taken the subject of religion seriously (be they Xtians, self-described atheists, Satanists, Muslims, or whatever) believes that their own choice of religion holds, at the very least, something closer to the truth.

And regarding the subject of "Alien Elite", I think Rev. Paradise's FAQ explained this well:

"We use the phrase, "Alien Elite" to describe ourselves. Often, it is the shortsightedness of people that disallows them to comprehend what this phrase means, even if they've read all of our books, magazines, and websites. Typically, they skip the word "alien." A big mistake, considering that it is an important modifier in the term. What it means is that we, as Satanists, are largely alien in the society at large: we do not generally subscribe to the disposable, consumer-obsessed culture that others do, our issues are different, the stands we take are often neither right nor left but something else entirely (one aspect of what we refer to as The Third Side), we question everything in a world that mostly goes along with established thought and rarely inquires as to how or why, and we simply represent something that most do not (some could say that we are not like most) -- all of this is in step with the archetype of Satan which we embrace. And we also embrace this alienation. By living such a pure and undiluted life, we are, in many ways, better than most of the human sheep. By being a minority (and we will always be a minority due to the laws of nature -- she simply does not give all of her gifts to all people) and possessing pragmatic and forward-thinking values that are above the interest of the masses, plus adding the intellect and instinct, the creativity and the resourcefulness, and all of those qualities reflected in our books, we are indeed the Alien Elite. In short, word usage and context matter."
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

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#20123 - 01/12/04 11:44 AM It worked!
Flavius Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 2777
Loc: BridgePort
I give this thread five stars. This is the most distinct example I can remember of the "General Satanism" forum perfectly serving its function: An intelligent and well-articulated set of questions were answered courteously and informatively.

Neither flaming nor Kingdom Come made an appearance.

Excellent work on both sides!

(Now that I've said this, it will probably go to shit, but at this flicker in time this thread is like a perfect crystal - clear and well-structured.)
_________________________
-Flavius.
Resident Psychic.

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#20124 - 01/12/04 11:55 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Svengali]
Anonymous
Unregistered


"If you find elements of Satanism do not appeal to you, then you are probably not a Satanist. No big deal. Go do something else."

So your telling all of us whom some take your words a bit more to heart than others that if we doubt any aspect of satanism we are not a satanist and should just go away...... this is what you meant right. Just making sure.

~B~

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#20125 - 01/12/04 12:03 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Ram_Abbalah Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/27/03
Posts: 284
Loc: Reno, NV
I think the key word in what Reverend Svengali wrote is probably.

Perhaps you should pay a bit closer attention to what you're responding to. It seems to me you're just looking for something to get riled up about.
_________________________
"...I have built a mechanical sanctuary. In it copper bats fly on electric beams, brass rats scuttle in plastic cellars, robot skeletons dance; robot vampires, harlequins, wolves, and white phantoms, compounded of chemical and ingenuity, live here."

"Usher II"
The Martian Chronicles
by Ray Bradbury





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#20126 - 01/12/04 12:31 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Ram_Abbalah]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well this is of course your opinion which was not asked for. I asked the Reverened.

~B~

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#20127 - 01/12/04 12:43 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11552
Loc: New England, USA
>Well this is of course your opinion which was not asked for.
>I asked the Reverened.

You may have addressed him, but you still posted this to a public forum. If you truly wanted a 1-on-1 response from him, and also didn't care if your post went unread by others, why not send a private message?
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

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#20128 - 01/12/04 12:51 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

"If you find elements of Satanism do not appeal to you, then you are probably not a Satanist. No big deal. Go do something else."

So your telling all of us whom some take your words a bit more to heart than others that if we doubt any aspect of satanism we are not a satanist and should just go away...... this is what you meant right. Just making sure.

~B~




I would tell you specifically to go away.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#20129 - 01/12/04 12:54 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Bill_M]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I see your point and considered it at first but I wanted the public to see the response to the reply thats why I didnt PM him. I figured most people would practice not dumping opinions when not asked for them. And most probably do thats why only a few reply to this question that was directed to the Reverend. Can we please just let the Reverend answer the question for us.

Thanks,

~B~

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#20130 - 01/12/04 12:59 PM Re: It worked! [Re: Flavius]
Flavius Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 2777
Loc: BridgePort
"(Now that I've said this, it will probably go to shit..."

What am I, psychic?

_________________________
-Flavius.
Resident Psychic.

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#20131 - 01/12/04 01:00 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Svengali]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for replying. I just wanted to make sure there was no misunderstanding. Your original post was excellent by the way. And I agree that this was handled with great care all together.

~B~

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#20132 - 01/12/04 01:42 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Entity Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 03/23/02
Posts: 1773
Loc: Avalon UK
Quote:

I firmly believe that to be human is to have flawed perceptions, and thus no one person is qualified to judge the beliefs of another.




A definition of belief: A belief is something which a person holds to be TRUE until it is proven otherwise.

Beliefs can, and do, change very quickly. I suggest that the IDEA that humans are flawed is important to you, making this one of your values, rather than a belief.

If, however, you have sufficient evidence to prove that all humans are flawed, (i.e. having met every single one of them), then go on believing...

A belief leaves no room for doubt. Doubt is a Satanist's most useful tool and is essential for judging the beliefs of others as well as any temporary beliefs of one's own.

Although the idea that no one person is qualified to judge the beliefs of another may important to YOU, I, personally, doubt your idea and, as a Satanist, will continue to doubt other's beliefs as and when it is useful for me to do so.


_________________________
~ Reverend Entity

Nothing is better than to live according to one's taste. - François Villon

Test Everything. Believe Nothing.

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#20133 - 01/12/04 07:31 PM In effect...
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

Well this is of course your opinion which was not asked for. I asked the Reverened




I believe you fail to acknowledge the point and purpose of a messageboard: it allows for people to openly discuss ideas of interest concerning a particular area. Need I stress, openly. Your post brought no form of information to the discussion as a whole, so you might have PMed the Reverend as well. From my experience on various messageboards it was more proper to do so.

I appreciate DinosaurKnight's way of asking for more information, which I perceive to be far more polite and open-minded than of most people. Anyway, as far as being Elitist goes [Alienish, as well ] you may look at various areas of life - sports, philosophy, religion etc - where people can make a choice to which group they want to adhere. It is certain that their decision is made after weighing out the different factors and, whichever group is most beneficial for them, they join. By selecting a particular group of the whole they consider it to be better than the others; by joining it, they integrate themselves in a group that they believe superior to other such similar groups.

The difference about Satanism is that wanting to join is not enough [and it is not about the memebership that I am talking about here]. Most other religions/philosophies want followers, for their ultimate goal as a whole is to enslave and gain benefits from the brainwashed masses [the Higher Initiates of those orders, especially]. Satanists could not care less about their numbers, for we act as individuals not as a flock. One may be prone to suspicion whether we were brainwashed into this or not. I read the Satanic Bible as a description of myself in broad yet very relevant terms - for the particularities and 'spices' of one's life are those things which ultimately give shape to one's personality. And so, taking on a label that describes variety is no shame for myself.

The darkness and evilness... yes, "Let Me Entertain You" is a very appropriate essay about this theme. I wonder if people would like me to eat children for breakfast or set fire to Churches and Synagogues. Why not, at times, allow them to believe that? It makes the way in my life a little bit easier to go through, since the already-proven ignorami do not need to know more about me. A person of intelligence can, at least, see past a commonplace label - and stereotype - and know me for who I am. If this sounds self-contradictory [the deal about label vs. non-label] think about 'good books'. Surely some authors are classics and their work is valuable - hence the term, 'good literature'. But only on a one-on-one basis can you truly appreciate that literature. e.g. I respect Charles DIckens and his work, yet I find it awfully boring - for myself. It is a matter of aesthetics in the end. There is no value in saying a book is good if you have not read it; there is no value in a Christian-born Atheist that still finds himself making the sign of the cross.

As for pretentiousness, what you perceived is just a cover-up. A Satanist knows to enjoy life - and me, e.g., can take a lot of joy from art. Therefore aesthetics constitues an important aspect of my philosophy, and I perfect my taste - as with culture - constantly. "De gustibus non discutandum"! So, as long as it is of no bother to you, let it go!

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#20134 - 01/12/04 09:01 PM Re: In effect... *DELETED*
Anonymous
Unregistered


Post deleted by Reverend_Lang

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#20135 - 01/12/04 10:42 PM Re: In effect...
C_D_McKinna Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 777
Loc: San Diego, CA
I cannot post my actual views here because they will ban me if they dont do it now.

Perhaps that is because your views are not really Satanic?

In my personal opinion I feel that as a Reverened he has a certain obligation to not toss his opinion around to us.

You are allowed to have one but Rev. Svengali isn't?

It is my personal oppinion that you are acting like a child.
_________________________
Believe Nothing, Test Everything

"Well done is better than well said"

- Benjamin Franklin

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#20136 - 01/12/04 11:45 PM Re: In effect...
Magister_Lang Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 5822
Loc: I-BLISS!
Satanism demands STUDY not worship!
Don't expect to be spoon fed by us.
Any question you had were answered by competant active members, Agents and members of the Priesthood. We do not need to or care to prove anything to you.
You don't have an inkling as to what LaVey would have done. You did not know him! Many of us however did.
Good bye.
_________________________
“The world, like a wolf pack is not all the licking of pups and howls by the moonlight. Sometimes there just needs to be a gnashing of teeth and a ripping of flesh to put things back into the natural order of things.”

XLII A.S.

"Magic is a tool and is essentially useless unless it can serve you here and now! Anything else is simply an act in faith and an excuse for failure in the here and now." XLVI A.S. R. Lang

"Chaos is a creation of mankind and does not exist within the uncompromising fascism of natures laws! Everything has order." XLVI A.S R. Lang

"To believe in Chaos one must believe that their is some kind of God who all of a sudden put everything into order! That!, I cannot relate too..."
R. Lang XLVI A.S.

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#20137 - 01/13/04 12:32 AM Re: It worked! [Re: Flavius]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
The wonderful thing about Satanism is that you can throw a bunch of people into a room (any bunch will do) and it will prove itself - without fail. Human nature is a constant, man is just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse...

There will always be one dipshit who ruins it for the rest of us. That's why utopias are pipe dreams.

The Dipshit Factor

Or you could always go the Jean-Paul Sartre route...

Hell very often is other people.

The up side is that if you expect this, you are more likely to be pleasantly suprised. And you really appreciate the few people who don't suck.

Hails to you, Resident Psychic. Your formula is foolproof

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#20138 - 01/13/04 12:59 AM Re: In effect... [Re: Magister_Lang]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This was my farewell!


Edited by Reverend_Lang (01/13/04 03:57 AM)

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#20139 - 01/13/04 01:39 AM For one.
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
This is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship. Reverend Lang is one of the dictators. He dictated that Raven's post was drivel, because it was, and deleted the pigslop.

He did us a favor. Thank you Reverend Lang.

_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

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#20140 - 01/13/04 01:45 AM Re: In effect...
C_D_McKinna Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 777
Loc: San Diego, CA
Where in the Hell do you people come from?

First off, I think a Reverend of the Church of Satan has a pretty good grasp on what Satanism is about.

Furthermore, and I realize this is a very difficult concept to grasp, but...

Reverand Ventrue's message board = Reverand Ventrue's delegated moderators = moderators' way or the high way!

This is not a democracy! You have no "rights" here!

Take your whining elsewhere!
_________________________
Believe Nothing, Test Everything

"Well done is better than well said"

- Benjamin Franklin

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#20141 - 01/13/04 02:08 AM Re: In effect...
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Read the thread The Church of Satan and “people” by Reverend Svengali. That will give you an answer to your question.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#20142 - 01/13/04 02:28 AM Re: In effect...
Citizen Jonesy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/22/02
Posts: 995
Loc: Palm Springs, California, USA
Quote:

Why do you insist on deleting posts that challenge the ranks here? That might be expected in a christian forum but here it seems a bit weak.




Because he's one of the moderators and because he CAN !!!

Quote:

And I agree with what Raven said 100% this is a issue that does need attention becuase you just did exactly what he said you would do.




Probably he knew he was going to say something that was out of line.

Quote:

You only let posts stay that you want people to read and are beneficial to the control of the church and its members. Anything that defiles your definition of satanism is shunned without explaination.




While I don't agree with the idea that they control the members (which is certainly not true) our definition of Satanism IS Satanism. Don't like it, don't play with us. Find another sandbox.

Quote:

Are you that intimidated by one mans power of insight that you cant even let the post stay here for our analysis.




No, but we do get angry and annoyed when someone says something really stupid.

Quote:

We do have minds of our own you realize and to censor this forum seems a tad controling. I was very interested in what he was saying and in many ways relate to his philosophy.




Dem's da breaks, dude. Tough shit.

Quote:

So I guess Im not a satanist either by your standards. But like he said thats fine with me I know what I am.




Ok. Bye.

Quote:

HS!




Didn't you just say that you weren't a Satanist?
_________________________
Hail Satan!
Jonesy
I° Member, Church Of Satan
Webmaster
The 8FoldPath Network-Just updated

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#20143 - 01/13/04 02:34 AM Re: Thank you! [Re: Nemo]
Citizen Jonesy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/22/02
Posts: 995
Loc: Palm Springs, California, USA
HOLY SHIT!!!!

We have a door?

When did that get installed?

Isn't there someone in charge of letting us know that we have a damn door now?!

_________________________
Hail Satan!
Jonesy
I° Member, Church Of Satan
Webmaster
The 8FoldPath Network-Just updated

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#20144 - 01/13/04 02:35 AM Re: How we came to our perspective. [Re: Nemo]
Citizen Jonesy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/22/02
Posts: 995
Loc: Palm Springs, California, USA
I took the bus
_________________________
Hail Satan!
Jonesy
I° Member, Church Of Satan
Webmaster
The 8FoldPath Network-Just updated

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#20145 - 01/13/04 03:42 AM Re: In effect...
Bastard_Child Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 765
Loc: Montana, USA
Why do you insist on deleting posts that challenge the ranks here?
Because insolence and stupidity are not appreciated nor tolerated here.

Anything that defiles your definition of satanism is shunned without explaination.
You just don't want to hear or understand anyone's explanations. Do you?

Are you that intimidated by one mans power of insight that you cant even let the post stay here for our analysis
Oh pulleeeaase, do not flatter yourself, I may vomit quite profusely.

So I guess Im not a satanist either by your standards.
Okay, now that this has been established, go away please.

But like he said thats fine with me I know what I am.
Well, I for one, am overjoyed that you know who you are. I certainly have my doubts...

_________________________
Exanimo ab hostilis.

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#20146 - 01/13/04 04:06 AM Re: In effect... [Re: Bastard_Child]
Magister_Lang Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 5822
Loc: I-BLISS!
Thank-you all who supported that decision. HS!
_________________________
“The world, like a wolf pack is not all the licking of pups and howls by the moonlight. Sometimes there just needs to be a gnashing of teeth and a ripping of flesh to put things back into the natural order of things.”

XLII A.S.

"Magic is a tool and is essentially useless unless it can serve you here and now! Anything else is simply an act in faith and an excuse for failure in the here and now." XLVI A.S. R. Lang

"Chaos is a creation of mankind and does not exist within the uncompromising fascism of natures laws! Everything has order." XLVI A.S R. Lang

"To believe in Chaos one must believe that their is some kind of God who all of a sudden put everything into order! That!, I cannot relate too..."
R. Lang XLVI A.S.

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#20147 - 01/13/04 04:15 AM Re: In effect... [Re: Magister_Lang]
Bastard_Child Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 765
Loc: Montana, USA
Absolutely! You are welcome Reverend!
_________________________
Exanimo ab hostilis.

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#20148 - 01/13/04 04:18 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism
Stanton_Vetalas Offline


Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 240
Loc: Teh 518
Quote:

"If you find elements of Satanism do not appeal to you, then you are probably not a Satanist. No big deal. Go do something else."

So your telling all of us whom some take your words a bit more to heart than others that if we doubt any aspect of satanism we are not a satanist and should just go away...... this is what you meant right. Just making sure.

~B~




Sorry if this was already said, but I think the correct, simple answer to this, is "Yes."

It's been stated in this thread alone several times, that, Satanists are Satanist by nature. If you disagree with parts of Satanism, then you wouldn't be a Satanist. If you don't have a strong mistrust of people, you don't call yourself a Misanthropist. If you're going to let people go every time they commit a crime that you think should be legal, you shouldn't be a cop. (Heh, yes. Shouldn't. I say shouldn't because, well, look at cops.)

Then again most Christians (along with several other religions and philosophies) don't agree with millions of aspects of Christianity, but stay Christian. So I can understand if this is a hard concept to grasp. (Example: The aposcles creed, or niscene.. I dont recall.. states that jesus died and went to hell and then was resurrected. When I had to memorize it for school my mom said "Wait... you dont believe that right? Then don't say it..." but she is still Catholic.)

Satanism is just a name that groups together a certain mind state that has always existed.

Here's a phrase you should take into concideration:

"All or Nothing"


Edited by MentalPause (01/13/04 05:55 AM)

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#20149 - 01/13/04 01:35 PM Re: In effect... [Re: Magister_Lang]
Citizen Jonesy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/22/02
Posts: 995
Loc: Palm Springs, California, USA
You're one of the ones who are in charge here.

We're all overjoyed when you toss a shit disturber from our midst!
_________________________
Hail Satan!
Jonesy
I° Member, Church Of Satan
Webmaster
The 8FoldPath Network-Just updated

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#20150 - 01/13/04 03:30 PM Re: In effect... [Re: Citizen Jonesy]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
I'll second that.

That new door that was installed sure has a lot of ass-prints on it already.

Hail!

_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

Top
#20151 - 01/13/04 08:17 PM Re: In effect... [Re: Magister_Lang]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I am glad you are here to remove them. This is your playing field and people should understand your rules. I for one enjoy it when you clean house.

Thank you, Reverend.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#20152 - 01/13/04 11:34 PM Re: Taking the bus. [Re: Citizen Jonesy]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12551
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Wish they had seatbelts.

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#20153 - 02/06/07 03:36 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Discipline]
azizabrielle Offline


Registered: 02/05/07
Posts: 39
Quote:


Everone has a right to judge others. I believe that people do not have the right to push their agendas onto others if it is not asked for. I judge people because they want to be judged, but I will not push my beliefs onto them. That is a waste of my time and effort. I could be doing better things like judging people so I don't have to interact with anyone I don't want to.

I judge people on their actions and achievements not their beliefs or skin color. There is a difference. I give respect when it is earned or when it will be beneficial to me.

Judgement is a quality that is a useful tool when used correctly.




That was beautiful...

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#20154 - 02/06/07 03:39 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: azizabrielle]
Mr Sam Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Somewhere in the UK.
You dragged up a 3 year old topic to say that?!

You might want to keep a check on the dates.

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#20155 - 02/06/07 05:21 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Mr Sam]
III Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 236
The lengths to which some will go to acquire self satisfaction are astonishing.

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#20156 - 02/06/07 05:49 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: azizabrielle]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Thank you.

After reading my own words, I wish I could edit it. I don't like how I phrased it.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#20157 - 02/06/07 11:08 PM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Mr Sam]
Caesar Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
Quote:

You dragged up a 3 year old topic to say that?!

You might want to keep a check on the dates.




What's wrong with paying someone a compliment? Who cares how "old" it is. Besides, sometimes these posts are worth resurrecting.
_________________________
www.vampiretemple.com
Are You One Of Us?

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#20158 - 02/07/07 12:23 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Discipline]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
Nice to see someone new actually reading what's already here.

The more my skills improve, the harder is to look at my old work.

Chalk it up to the benefit of experience?
_________________________




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#20159 - 02/07/07 06:24 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Caesar]
Luigi Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 349
Loc: Europe & South America
Quote:

Besides, sometimes these posts are worth resurrecting.




Exactly. I haven't read this thread and I think there are lots of useful and intelligent posts here. Thanks for the gravedigging!

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#20160 - 02/07/07 06:48 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Luigi]
DarkApollyon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 581
Loc: Brighton, England
Quote:

Quote:

Besides, sometimes these posts are worth resurrecting.




Exactly. I haven't read this thread and I think there are lots of useful and intelligent posts here. Thanks for the gravedigging!




I'll second that!!

I hadn't come across this thread before, and found it very interesting!
_________________________
www.vampiretemple.com

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#20161 - 02/07/07 09:49 AM Re: Observations and questions about Satanism [Re: Svengali]
ThaDeej Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/15/06
Posts: 241
Loc: Greenville, SC
The 'resurrection" of this thread was worth it all, if for nothing more than reading this response from you, Magister. I love how you intelligently explained everything all the while mixing the occasional layman's sensibility in there for good measure.

Fabulous response and representation of Satanism!!


Edited by ThaDeej (02/07/07 09:49 AM)
_________________________
"Good and Evil liveth only in men's minds," Ragnar Redbeard

www.vampiretemple.com

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