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Baptism - your opinions please #20277
01/11/04 06:56 AM
01/11/04 06:56 AM

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I know theres a thread related to Baptism but not exactly the same as this.
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Ok I have to admit that the term Baptism is very offensive "to me" I relate it with the xian rituals and cant seem to shake it out of my head. I was never raped of my purity and I am very very grateful to my parents for that. Thats not exactly the issue here though. Its simply the word and definition. Here is the definition I got from Hyperdictionary.com

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Definition: [n] a Christian sacrament signifying spiritual cleansing and rebirth; "most churches baptize infants but some insist on adult baptism"
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Now everyone is very familiar with the satanic baptism we have in TSR. Why was it deemed a "Baptism" and not something else maybe an "Rite of Admittance" which to me would be way less intrussive title "no association of the definition". I dont in anyway view ours as a baptism in any way shape or form it truly just is not a baptism "to me". Does anyone feel as I do about this? And If you dont exactly feel the same... do you understand where Im going with this? Im opening this to your personal opinions..please. This has bothered me a great deal ever since I read it. The only thing that made any sense to me was to think that it was called this on purpose as defiance or mockery I dont know. I know its just a word but it burns deep with more than just myself Im sure. My intention is not to start a battle but for myself and others that feel the same to get a better understanding so we can see the reason for this and possibly accept that reason and turn this negative to a positive.

Thank you in advance for you feedback,

~B~

Re: Baptism - your opinions please #20278
01/11/04 07:00 AM
01/11/04 07:00 AM
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Hagen von Tronje Offline

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The reason we use the term is the same reason we are a Church.

Most people do not have the same hang up. You might simply take that at face value.


"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."
Re: Baptism - your opinions please #20279
01/11/04 07:06 AM
01/11/04 07:06 AM
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reprobate Offline

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The etymological root of "baptism" is the Greek word, "to bathe" or "to dip in water".

The Church of Satan's rite makes oblique reference to the Judeo-Christian rite. I think it's fair to say that the symbol of water and its application transcends that particular religion, though. The ocean, after all, was never Jehovah's, but Dagon's.


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Re: Baptism - your opinions please #20280
01/11/04 07:24 AM
01/11/04 07:24 AM

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Since Satanism uses some opposites from Christianity as well as whatever popular religion the herd gravitates towards, it makes sense and is appropriate when Dr. LaVey used such supposed "Christian" terms as "Church", "Altar", "Satan", and "Baptism" in his new religion. In effort to de-throne the "enthroned lies" he used these terms to both help crystalize the religion and philosophy and to illustrate better ways that humans who choose to be their own gods and acknowledge their carnal nature can practice a more "true" religion.
Anton LaVey was asked many times (as I read from his books) "Why call it Satanism?" and probably even your question "Why don't you call Baptism something less connected with Christianity?"
I think the point in both cases was to not only attract attention...but also to leave an unforgettable mark on society and hopefully (to the right people) teach a lesson.
I personally have no problem calling it a "Satanic Baptism" simply because it's effective and produces results! The same way saying "I'm a Satanist" to yourself or others proves to both that there's nothing to be afraid of!
But I realize there will always be those who will always feel uneasy about words and semantics. And to them, I just have to laugh...because I know they'll most likely never get it!

Re: Baptism - your opinions please [Re: Hagen von Tronje] #20281
01/11/04 07:48 AM
01/11/04 07:48 AM

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I know its annoying but I answered my own question.....

I guess the best thing would of been to have asked Lavey personally since hes the only one that would of been able to answer this question and it would just be the reason and not opinions. I know its opnions I asked for but maybe I should of thought a bit harder before I asked a question that really just cant be answered unless you had asked him yourself or it was indeed documented somewhere that someone else did.

Thanks anyway's everyone,

~B~

Re: Baptism - your opinions please #20282
01/11/04 07:55 AM
01/11/04 07:55 AM
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Rev_Malebranche Offline
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Then I take it you would object in a similar way to The Black Mass?

Christianity is no more relevant to the actual practice of Satanism than any other religion. We take the pieces which we find useful, and discard the rest. Baptism is essentially an initiation rite in the Christian religion(s). We simply adapt it to suit our own needs. Further, a 'Baptism' into the Church of Satan is certainly not compulsory, as it is in other religions.

An initiation ceremony from ANY religion could be adapted for the same purpose.

In America, where we are surrounded by Christianity and are likely familiar with the proceedings to some degree, an adaptation or inversion of a Christian rite may simply be more emotionally resonant for some people. For others, it may seem completely beside the point.

Regardless, the use of or reference to Christian imagery is not threatening enough to be 'offensive'. It simply is. An emotional connection can be exploited, but it shouldn't be allowed to overwhelm the rational - at least outside the ritual chamber.

Re: Baptism - your opinions please [Re: Rev_Malebranche] #20283
01/11/04 08:23 AM
01/11/04 08:23 AM

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I dont object to any of the above. I am very fond of the Black Mass and all of the rites etc. My main purpose of the post was to find an explaination of the use of the words. Nothing more. I figured pretty much what everyone is saying was going to be the deal... it seems obvious but the question still was not rested in my mind. So .... I asked. Like I had said in a previous reply... I feel I jumped the gun on the question all together simply because unless the question was directly asked to Lavey and documented than it just cant be answered to satisfy me.

~B~

Re: Baptism - your opinions please #20284
01/11/04 07:01 PM
01/11/04 07:01 PM
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Rev_Malebranche Offline
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I feel I jumped the gun on the question all together simply because unless the question was directly asked to Lavey and documented than it just cant be answered to satisfy me.

Then I guess you're permanently out of luck.

Seriously, I think there are many people here qualified (more than myself) to address concerns of this type. This was kind of a simple question that seems answerable by anyone with a thorough understanding of Satanism.

Anyway, my point was that I couldn't understand why you would object to the use or inversion of one Christian ritual and not another.

I have one more pretty obvious answer for you. When Dr. LaVey was promoting and developing The Church of Satan in the late 1960s and early 1970s... he was courting public attention, playing a cultural trickster (no doubt benefitting from the increased attention in the form of sales of TSB and TSR - and of course self-aggrandizement IS philosophically consistent with Satanism).

What makes a better headline in America (one likely to tittilate a largely Christian public and delight Satanists)...

'Satanist performs Satanic Baptism'...or...
'Satanist performs Initiation Rite'?

Perhaps this is an issue of Lesser Magic as well as Greater Magic.

Smoke and Mirrors #20285
01/11/04 08:13 PM
01/11/04 08:13 PM
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Caesar Offline

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Something else to think about...the reason "they" use it, in my opinion, is the psychological effect on the participant(s). Pomp and pageantry can help solidify commitment (at the least celebrate it). This is basic stuff.


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Possibly Off-topic. #20286
01/11/04 09:35 PM
01/11/04 09:35 PM
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Minnesota.
Felstorm Offline
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Okay.

So if I understand this right, the Christians borrowed all the old pagan traditions and turned them into Christian ceremony. So in essense they perverted what was once "holy" and "sacred". Those pagans inevitably did the same thing to an earlier religion.

Then along comes Anton LaVey and perverts the Christian's perversion, of a pagan's perversion, of an ancient pagan sacred ritual.

Something to think about.

Anyway.

The purpose of all the so-called sacrelige is to stimulate strong emotions within you. Most of us have been exposed to the Christian dogma, so when "defiling" those traditions, it can bring out strong emotions. These very same emotions fuel magic, strong feelings of guilt, lust, anger, frustration, sadness, and joy all set up that bioelectrical alchemy that brings about results.

When you experience such strong emotion that it over-rides your intellect, you have harnessed magic.

Last edited by Felstorm; 01/11/04 09:36 PM.

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Re: Possibly Off-topic. [Re: Felstorm] #20287
01/11/04 10:50 PM
01/11/04 10:50 PM
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Bill_M Offline
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>Then along comes Anton LaVey and perverts the Christian's
>perversion, of a pagan's perversion, of an ancient pagan
>sacred ritual.
>
>Something to think about.

Yes, but it's at least admitted as a redundancy. To quote The Satanic Bible: "A black mass is essentially a parody of the religious service of the Roman Catholic Church, but can be loosely applied to a satire on any religious ceremony. To the Satanist, the black mass, in its blaspheming of orthodox rites, is nothing more than a redundancy. The services of all established religions are actually parodies of old rituals performed by the worshippers of the earth and the flesh."


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Re: Baptism - your opinions please [Re: Rev_Malebranche] #20288
01/12/04 12:39 AM
01/12/04 12:39 AM

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Perhaps this is an issue of Lesser Magic as well as Greater Magic.

Excellent point. A true Satanist always backs up his Greater Magic with Lesser Magic. It takes a Satanist to know the workings of one so I guess that proves something about yourself too, sir.

Re: Baptism - your opinions please #20289
01/12/04 12:49 AM
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i agree with what everyone's had to say, especially about getting the public attention. You quoted the definition of baptism from a dictionary. Is the definition there partially what gets you? You must remember language is always changing and evolving, remember when they added Homer's "doh!" to the dictionary and there was a time when the only meaning for the word cool was in reference to the weather. Using the word baptism was brilliant and got attention.

Re: Smoke and Mirrors [Re: Caesar] #20290
01/12/04 03:44 AM
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Re: Baptism - your opinions please #20291
01/12/04 04:49 AM
01/12/04 04:49 AM
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C_D_McKinna Offline
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My main purpose of the post was to find an explaination of the use of the words.

I'm really having a difficult time understanding why you don't see this.

Have you ever considered that the reason the word "Baptism" is used, is the same reason that Dr. LaVey decided to call this orginazation a "Church?"


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Re: Baptism - your opinions please [Re: Hagen von Tronje] #20292
01/12/04 04:52 AM
01/12/04 04:52 AM
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C_D_McKinna Offline
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Should have read this before I commented.



Believe Nothing, Test Everything

"Well done is better than well said"

- Benjamin Franklin
Re: Baptism - your opinions please #20293
01/12/04 04:54 AM
01/12/04 04:54 AM
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Are you going to be offended when High Priest Gilmore releases the "Satanic Scriptures" too?

It really isn't rocket science.


Believe Nothing, Test Everything

"Well done is better than well said"

- Benjamin Franklin
Re: Baptism - your opinions please [Re: Rev_Malebranche] #20294
01/12/04 04:58 PM
01/12/04 04:58 PM

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I dont object about anything regarding any rites. I was looking for an answer to a pretty commonly asked question I get from others NOT on this board. I dont tell people my opinion and mark it as documented fact. Im looking for documented facts. I can assume the same thing you assume right now and for the most part thats what I have done... I want the facts... and if they are the same as what I have already assumed than ok. If they are not than ok. The point is that nobody that replied really knows the facts.... If im wrong and someone here that already posted does know the facts please prove it to us and show us the documented proof that it is fact. Would it be ok to just never know? It would with me but Ill never except opinion as fact thats just silly.

The "permanently out of luck" remark was not that clever nor funny. I kind of giggled at first but after a second of thinking about the best friend I just lost 2 weeks ago I thought It REALLY SUCKED!.

I agree that there has to be someone here that holds the facts regarding this and Ill wait patiently until that person reveals them to us. You may think this is a basic understanding.... Im not sure how you judge knowledge.... I treat knowledge like loving 2 children... Both can be very different but I would never favor nor love one more than the other. They must be treated as ONE and knowledge must be shown the same respect. Im going to assume, like I said... that nobody thats replied "so far" really knows for sure... which is really just ok with me at this point. So if any of you Rev's / Magister / Magistra Peggy N..... know the absolute documented facts please let us know. Thanks. and if the answers to this question have not been documented and we can only speculate then just say so and we can move away from this subject with the answer that "there is no answer" for good.

~B~

Re: Baptism - your opinions please [Re: C_D_McKinna] #20295
01/12/04 05:12 PM
01/12/04 05:12 PM

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LMAO *jeopardy music*

Still waiting for the facts.........

*satanic cheeleaders*
R- E- V- E- R- E- N- D ...reverened! help us!

Re: Baptism - your opinions please #20297
01/12/04 06:56 PM
01/12/04 06:56 PM
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Magister_Lang Offline

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Your question has been answered sufficiently and accurately by Jack_Malebranche and others. We do not spoonfeed on demand here.

If we take on the label of being Satanists I doubt we have a problem with word issues. That's part of what makes us so. Get over it!


“The world, like a wolf pack is not all the licking of pups and howls by the moonlight. Sometimes there just needs to be a gnashing of teeth and a ripping of flesh to put things back into the natural order of things.”

XLII A.S.

"Magic is a tool and is essentially useless unless it can serve you here and now! Anything else is simply an act in faith and an excuse for failure in the here and now." XLVI A.S. R. Lang

"Chaos is a creation of mankind and does not exist within the uncompromising fascism of natures laws! Everything has order." XLVI A.S R. Lang

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R. Lang XLVI A.S.
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