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#204725 - 11/28/06 01:12 AM For those interested in evolution [Re: Virus9]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10129
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/selfish06/selfish06_index.html

Discussion panel thirty years after the publication of the revolutionary book by Richard Dawkins. Includes audio files of the complete presentation at the bottom of the page. Highly recommended.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#204726 - 11/28/06 01:30 AM And now for something completely different. [Re: Groundhog]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
Quote:

I just wanted to interject, in a non-scientific way, that sex is more than just procreation to me and provides a real physical benefit and it sounded to me like nobody was seeing it in this light.




That's because we were talking about evolution. Dawkins is a scientist. Did you watch the video at the start of the thread?

Quote:

I usually don't manage to get my point across in a proper way.




An unfortunate affliction. Of course, the effort must be made if one wishes to be understood.

Quote:

I believe in evolution but I don't think that it always wins out because society has a lot to do these days with the laws
of who has babies by controlling abortions and then there's how the parent takes care of themselves. They could have the best genes in the world, but drink and smoke like a villian and the designer baby could come out a K-mart special.




If we are looking at "the big picture" here, then you are looking at a pixel. Evolution happens on a grand scale. You definitely didn't watch the video, did you? Watch it, and see how he illustrates the magnitude of the timespans involved with evolution. A generation or so is absolutely nothing as far as evolution is concerned.

Quote:

This came from the Wikipedia:

As far as male contraceptives go: On October 31, 2006; CBS News reported that the drug Adjudin...




Right, so that's a drug. You mentioned a male contraceptive device. I mentioned that we already had such an invention, known as a condom. This was correct. I'm still not sure what bearing any of this has on the actual topic.

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#204727 - 11/28/06 01:39 AM Re: And now for something completely different. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Groundhog Offline


Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 306
OK, you are right, I didn't watch it. I will. As far as the "condom" goes. I just thought that it will change the flow of babies out into the world in the near future. Less of them and also, I thought the drug might be a great investment idea. Heck, I'm trying. I'll get there. I want to watch the video but have to wait until morning now.

I didn't mean to say "condom" I meant pill. I need to get some sleep.


Edited by ooo (11/28/06 01:41 AM)
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#204728 - 11/28/06 01:42 AM Re: Pardon? [Re: Groundhog]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10129
I believe in evolution but I don't think that it always wins out because society has a lot to do these days with the laws

You know, as someone with a cursory knowledge of evolutionary theory, it gets so tiresome repeating the same tired shit to armchair scientists who think their ignorance constitutes a valid scientific opinion.

Evolution, by definition, cannot fail. It's not a pass/fail proposition; whatever happens biologically will be evolution. Period.

Your confusion is that you believe, due to natural human megalomania and hubris, that you are qualified to speak as to what evolution should be. Evolution is happening in the human race, right now, including the massive fecundity of the stupid, it's just not happening the way you wish it would. Unfortunately, like all natural processes (such as gravity, plate tectonics, inertia, etc) you have absolutely no say in how they play out. You are the pawn, not the player. Nature will run its course without your input. Ain't life a bitch that way?
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#204729 - 11/28/06 03:16 AM Re: A splendid de facto Satanist. [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Ok. Your explanations are clear. I'll ask two more questions.

Would homosexual behavior among non-human animals (in dolphins for example) also be considered malimprinting?

And, are there any other books you'd recommend as starter books besides the ones you've already mentioned in this thread?

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#204730 - 11/28/06 03:52 AM Re: A splendid de facto Satanist. [Re: Zaftig]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10129
Yes. Any attraction to something other than a member of the same species of the opposite sex is malimprinting. This does not imply that fetishes pertaining directly to such a person are malimprinting; enjoying a woman who wears stockings is not a case of malimprinting. Being aroused by empty stockings with no woman is malimprinting. So is animal (including human) homosexuality.

Malimprinting in fact a broad phenomenon not limited to sexuality; it is the case where a natural imprinting instinct is targeted at the "wrong" (naturally speaking) thing. A hatchling duck who wrongly identifies a person, or a red balloon, or whatever, as it's "mother" is likewise malimprinting, a classic example that should better illustrate what human fetish really is.

None of this is to say that malimprinting fetishes are "bad" because they do not violate ethics nor do they imply a flaw in the person, but you might as well admit what they are: a misdirection of reproductive urge. Simple as that. I don't condemn it, I'm as guilty of it as anyone.

If you've never read any of these books, I recommend starting with The Naked Ape. It is extremely readable and entertaining and requires no background science. After that you can tackle the others, with this book having "tuned" you to the science mindset better. Understanding evolutionary science really requires getting used to the way scientists discuss this, because it isn't purely a matter of layman's jargon and ways of thinking, hence the common errors.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#204731 - 11/28/06 04:37 AM Re: A splendid de facto Satanist. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Quote:

I think one of his hardest-hitting comments was his correct assertion that "There is no such thing as a Christian child, only a child of Christian parentage".




I'm currently researching a paper on women prophesiers in the early Christian church and I came across this from Tertullian, a Christian apologist,

"Men are made, not born, Christians." Tertullian, Apology, 18.4.

LaVey's inversion of this principle makes me all the more consider him a genius. And a funny genius to boot.

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#204732 - 11/28/06 01:45 PM Re: A splendid de facto Satanist. [Re: Zaftig]
Incubus Offline


Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 242
Loc: Connecticut, USA
If Christians are made, not born, then maybe the same is true for serial killers or racists? I've never met a racist baby.

Just a thought...

Thanks a ton for the post, Virus9.
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"The might of aithÍr chases it into the sea, sea spits it out onto solid ground, earth spits it up into rays of the radiant sun and sun hurls it into the whirlpools of aithÍr. One receives it from another, then another from another, and they all hate it. This is the way that I too am now going, an exile from the gods and a wanderer, placing my trust in mad Strife."

-Empedocles (c.490 - 430 BCE)




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#204733 - 11/28/06 02:05 PM Re: A splendid de facto Satanist. [Re: Incubus]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Racists are made, sure, just like any other person who adopts superiority and descriminates on irrelevant and unsubstantiated criteria.

As for serial killers...my psychiatrist employer says that you may be born with a strong tendency that may be greatly enhanced by circumstances (i.e. abuse) that you may, or may not, act on. However, lots of people were abused and most to not become murderers. So the trait has to be there in the first place.

Sociopaths are not all killers, and there are varying degrees of sociopathic personalities. Some people have a little, some people have a lot. Some like to eat people, some like to run Enron.

So, in my unprofessional opinion, I don't know.

Anyone study this?

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#204734 - 11/28/06 02:14 PM Re: A splendid de facto Satanist. [Re: Incubus]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Ever met a baby with the capacity to express racism?

It also depends on how you define racism? Some social theories suggest that we naturally gravitate towards other people like ourselves. If this is true then dividing ourselves by skin color and cultural heritage might be inherent. Violent actions or theories of inferiority based on skin color, however, are almost certainly learned behaviors.

As for serial killers. I believe science has it down to two categories: those that kill out of hatred (learned) and those who have no emotional reaction to killing others (genetic?). The tests that I have seen which support the theory that some people are born with a predisposition to violence and may also be incapable of knowing that killing others is wrong are supported with evidence of brain activity being absent in certain areas which they have concluded a "normal brain" would have. But a similar field has also shown that brain paterns can be the result of conditioning and that the brain, in learning, does physically change to accomodate input. Which means that testing people already identified as serial killers is rather useless in trying to understand how they are made. I think I will just sit comfortably in the "I don't know" chair for now. Paper on Serial Killers after a quick Google search.

I find that while convincing people to bring their children up in religious neutrallity may be quite difficult it would be far more productive to promote a rational logic amongst individuals which would then allow those children a more comfortable environment to question their parent's choices once they are under less obligation to them. The people around me who had a less than supportive upbringing are the first to turn down theistic religion because they learned early on that their parents should not be trusted and that questioning the motives and motivations of everyone was the only way to ensure personal survival.

Welcome to the board, by the way.


Edited by Drimlybunk (11/28/06 02:15 PM)
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'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#204735 - 11/28/06 02:22 PM Re: Passing on genetic traits. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Alia Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/31/06
Posts: 228
Loc: At Sorrow's End
Quote:

If your parents didn't have it, chances are good neither will you.




Now, now, there's always artificial insemination...
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Carpe Noctem

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#204736 - 11/28/06 02:57 PM Re: A splendid de facto Satanist. [Re: Drimlybunk]
Incubus Offline


Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 242
Loc: Connecticut, USA
Thank you!

I'm no expert, or even particularly knowledgeable about pathological psychology. It's interesting in and of itself that it's so hard to pin down the "nature vs. nurture" aspects of irrational and sociopathic behavior. What it sounds like is that once a pattern of seriously disturbed behavior becomes apparent in the individual, it's too late to accurately discover what caused it. Once the train wreck happens, I guess it's too hard to unscramble the mess and find out the cause.

I don't think kids need to be taught to enjoy torturing guinea pigs if they're so inclined, but perhaps they do need to be taught to hate and fear certain ethnic or social groups in particular.
_________________________
"The might of aithÍr chases it into the sea, sea spits it out onto solid ground, earth spits it up into rays of the radiant sun and sun hurls it into the whirlpools of aithÍr. One receives it from another, then another from another, and they all hate it. This is the way that I too am now going, an exile from the gods and a wanderer, placing my trust in mad Strife."

-Empedocles (c.490 - 430 BCE)




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#204737 - 11/28/06 03:45 PM Re: Pardon? [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Groundhog Offline


Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 306
Please forgive me for trying to decondition myself. I am the least loved in society and I am trying to decompress.
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#204738 - 11/28/06 05:24 PM Re: Pardon? [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Groundhog Offline


Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 306
I know that evolution wins out in the end. What does it win though? It's own existance or something more substantial? I would like a perfectly moral, just, functioning universe with the scientific knowledge available to make life as close to perfect as it can be but I don't have an inkling of what is perfect. What do you think that the goal should be? Genetic engineering to make only people with high I.Q.'s conditioned only to think in what way? I guess watching The Village of the Damned as a child left a huge imprint on my mind. I always think of those perfect children as genetically engineered but in a way that they hate everyone that isn't quite as perfect and logical as they are. It seems like I have been programmed by the media into thinking that only calamity can come from tampering with nature. I realize of course that I am not very scientifically minded probably more science fiction minded than anything.
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#204739 - 11/28/06 05:43 PM Re: And now for something completely different. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Groundhog Offline


Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 306

I listened to all of the video and I probably will again too. Dawkins talked about two things that I have been thinking about as well. I was just reading on the internet that there are a few states that do not allowed Atheists to run for certain offices and I find that to be ridiculous.

Article IX, Sec. 2, of the Tennessee constitution ("No Atheist shall hold a civil office") states: "No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments shall hold any office in the civil department of this state." Arkansas, Maryland, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, and Texas have similar laws.*

Also, here's a winning quote: "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God. -- George Herbert Walker Bush

Atheists are indeed the least loved in society and I agree not eagerly welcomed when they do venture out of the closet.

Christian children (Any child that is a believer in some kind of religion) was more than likely made and not born to be that way. I completely agree with that and think it is counterproductive to evolution. Even if our bodies change and our brains are in perfect health, if what goes into them is crap, that's what comes back out, n'est pas?

I have never heard of the word deconditioning until today.
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