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#20820 - 01/14/04 04:34 AM Gimmicks
Anonymous
Unregistered


Many seem to be so ready to dismiss it, or rather name it as a form of accusation to the third parts. To the same I would like to ask, on what grouds does art equal gimmicks to you? Anton LaVey was on many media mediums "accused" of being a stunt-man, a con. Where do you draw the line?

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#20821 - 01/14/04 08:51 AM Re: Gimmicks
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Confidence art is when you don't know what you're supporting.

Art is when you know, and appreciate, what you're supporting.
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#20822 - 01/14/04 09:11 AM Re: Gimmicks
Anonymous
Unregistered


What matters is the result and what you want. Let's say, if the "gimmick" works then it's art.

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#20823 - 01/14/04 10:17 AM Re: Gimmicks
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
The goal justifies the means. So, if LaVey had to use any gimmicks to achieve something, that won't diminish my admiration for him. Quite the contraire!

Besides, every single great man in History has
been "accused" of all kind of things durning his life and after his death.
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#20824 - 01/14/04 10:30 AM Re: Gimmicks [Re: Old_Pig]
Stanton_Vetalas Offline


Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 240
Loc: Teh 518
That's the point I try to make, people with something against the Church of Satan (I/E his daughter) and the like are always trying to "discredit" him saying his real name isn't Anton Szandor LaVey, saying he led a totally different lifestyle than he actually did, but who cares!

What's important is what's been written down and helped countless people find something they can believe in that actually isn't rediculous. If his name was Frow Haufstecklemair he'd still be Anton Szandor LaVey, Creator of The Church of Satan.

And the simple fact that he did all that, made most of america think he's one of the scariest people to ever live, and set a basic rule of life for an entire group of people makes him everything we think he is anyways, a great man. Gimmick or no gimmick.

A gimmick is a very useful resource. It's false pretenses and hiding your true nature to make other people happy that creates the problem. THERE is your line, drawn strait and clear.

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#20825 - 01/14/04 11:30 AM Re: Gimmicks
Professor_Sinister Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 752
Loc: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Quote:

Anton LaVey was on many media mediums "accused" of being a stunt-man,




The mediums must have been channeling some mischievous spirits. Anton LaVey played the Devil in Rosemary's Baby, but he was not his stunt double.

That's the sort of misinformation you would expect from anyone who would dare to accuse the "third parts".

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#20826 - 01/15/04 05:29 AM Re: Gimmicks
Anonymous
Unregistered


Where do I draw the line?

Well let's see... the xian church has this great gimmick concerning some corpse nailed to two pieces of wood whose death seemingly guarantees one a position in paradise...

It is a good question isn't it?

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#20827 - 01/15/04 09:05 PM Re: Gimmicks
Scratch Offline


Registered: 09/30/03
Posts: 207
Loc: Austin, TX
Fearing to open their eyes and face reality, many people would quickly become defensive and sling ulgy words around. It's convenient to dismiss LaVey as a con or a stunt man, playing down the truths he set before them.

Where do you draw the line? Wherever you believe it most dignified to draw the line; wherever your goal has been met. Where you feel like drawing the line is where you draw the line.
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"Stupid people do stupid things... smart people outsmart each other... then themselves." --DDevil-SOAD

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#20828 - 01/16/04 01:56 PM No Gimmicks, Only Wise Options!
Mason_Rust Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 1780
Loc: Michigan, USA
One man's gimmick is another man's lesser magic, and yet another man's ingenius idea.

The word "gimmick" itself has been unjustly associated with a wrong doing and something to look down upon. It's no wonder the masses don't like what they feel is a gimmick...they are the idiots that are falling for them!

Here's where I draw the line: there are no gimmicks, only intelligent tricks of the trade.

And if there are gimmicks:
*The average man hates them, for they often make him feel like he's been had, when actually, he's been stupid of his own accord. If anything, the ingrate should appreciate the learning experience!
*The above average man can appreciate them, for he sees the intelligence involved in employing them.
*The Satanist loves them, and improves upon them!
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"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
-Carl Sagan

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#20829 - 01/17/04 12:49 AM Re: Gimmicks
Malin_Wolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 1712
Loc: A sleepy little hollow in Flor...
There is nothing in this world that is not marketed in some way, shape or form. From toilet paper to Christian Childrens Relief Foundation, it is shaped and polished for an emotional response to bring in cash. You can either see through the smoke and mirrors and see it for what it is or you get blind-sided by the bullshit.
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#20830 - 01/19/04 05:13 AM Question.
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Why do you ask?

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#20831 - 01/20/04 07:56 PM Re: Question. [Re: Nemo]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I was interested in hearing opinions. I remember Anton LaVey spoke of his opinions about it on Speak Of The Devil. I'm yet to purchase a copy of it of my own.

Many musicians for instance are also performers, I'd find it interesting to hear from others, on where would it become an unnecessary perhaps, addition to the show? Or on where does performance become gimmick, in others opinion.

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#20832 - 01/20/04 07:58 PM Re: No Gimmicks, Only Wise Options! [Re: Mason_Rust]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here's where I draw the line: there are no gimmicks, only intelligent tricks of the trade.



I can reason with that.

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#20833 - 01/20/04 08:08 PM Diamond Dave
Mason_Rust Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 1780
Loc: Michigan, USA
"Make the music look the way it sounds." --David Lee Roth
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-Carl Sagan

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#20834 - 01/20/04 10:27 PM Question.
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Yes, but I still do not see why you are asking this question.

What is your purpose?

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#20835 - 01/20/04 11:29 PM Re: Gimmicks [Re: Stanton_Vetalas]
Scratch Offline


Registered: 09/30/03
Posts: 207
Loc: Austin, TX
How true, how true.

And you know, he was scary to alot of people. The fact that someone was making sense yet contradicting traditional beliefs followed by so many Americans posed a threat to that sham of a religion. And so, what else was there to do but play down his credibility? They all gladly stepped beneath the cloudy lights of denial, I'd say.

Anyhow, wouldn't "gimmicks" be a device of witchery? To appeal and attract both with words, in message, and physical representation is truly admirable. (But do recall that to christian beliefs, vanity is a sin. Ofcourse they would oppose.)
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"Stupid people do stupid things... smart people outsmart each other... then themselves." --DDevil-SOAD

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#20836 - 01/21/04 08:16 AM Re: Question. [Re: Nemo]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, you ask a good question, but the directness of it is sort of forbidding. Don't misunderstand me, the directness is worthy of praise, but may cause the other person to feel slightly insecure. Maybe because answering as directly as you ask is not possible. Yes, indeed, why does he ask.

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#20837 - 01/21/04 11:13 AM Re: Question. [Re: Nemo]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It is just curiosity Magister Nemo. I find it helpful to hear others opinions so I can gather an accurate understanding of my own.

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#20838 - 01/21/04 01:09 PM Re: Question.
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
You are surrounded by gimmicks each and everyday. It is but a tool for those who understand and utilize it. It is a part of lesser magic.

A gimmick can be as simple as an elaborate advertisement or it can be as powerful as religious proganada of heaven and hell. The thing is, do you let the gimmick control you? And do you know how and when to use a gimmick for yourself benefit?
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#20839 - 01/21/04 05:50 PM Re: Question.
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Archie, why are you so quick to project insecurity on others?

Please relax.

Freud once stated, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

And sometimes a question is just a question.

These are only dancing pixels in a screen before your face.

Do you think I can reach out through this screen and touch you and know you for who you are or something?

That would be a source for insecurity for some people I would suppose, wouldn't it?

We only require courtesy to communicate here. I am trying to understand the purpose behind the question to be certain I am answering the true question.

Nothing more.

Trust me.

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#20840 - 01/21/04 05:52 PM Re: Question.
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Have you considered then what prompts your curiosity?

Though you may not realize it you have touched on something profound but I do not mean to lead you astray from your authentic intention.

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#20841 - 01/21/04 06:16 PM Re: Question. [Re: Nemo]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I can't imagine Archie trusting someone.

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#20842 - 01/21/04 07:35 PM Re: Question. [Re: Nemo]
Anonymous
Unregistered


By all means Magister Nemo, astray me away. It'd be a pleasure if you were to do so, I'd love to hear what this could be. What is the profundity of what I have touched?



I am not certain of what exactly sparked my curiosity. It wasn't just one thought or observation that's for sure. I see how it could be used as a Lesser Magic tool, as it was previously pointed out, but not one to be used by the talentless... ?

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#20843 - 01/21/04 10:16 PM Re: Question.
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Again, I need to know precisely what prompts your curiosity first.

And this is...?

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#20844 - 01/21/04 11:32 PM Re: Question. [Re: Nemo]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Precisely? Okay, I give up.

I'd have to think about it for a while... other than what I have already said... If you could please allow the time...

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#20845 - 01/24/04 07:44 AM Re: Time.
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I have all the time in the world.

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