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#209003 - 12/17/06 04:14 PM Why Enochian?
DubhGhaill Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 11
I just recently finished reading the Satanic Bible and loved it.

Having finished it however, I'm left with one main question. Why use Enochian as the language of Satanic ritual? I've surfed the net looking into the history of it, but frankly that just puzzled me more. Why use a language originally billed as "Angelic"?

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#209004 - 12/17/06 04:47 PM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: DubhGhaill]
Wile_E_Quixote Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 2493
Surely that's entirely appropriate choice of language for a religion that reveres the qualities of the most famous angel of them all?

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#209005 - 12/17/06 04:48 PM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: DubhGhaill]
Danny Mc. Offline
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Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2143
Loc: Taxationland
If you reread pages 155-156 closely you will answer your own question. H.S.
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"Follow Me!", John M. (Delta).

"I've learned that you shouldn't compare yourself to others - they are more screwed up than you think." Something Magistra Isabel posted. laugh

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#209006 - 12/17/06 04:57 PM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: DubhGhaill]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
Read the keys themselves. Do you see anything particularly "Angellic" about them?
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Everyone is special in their own way, and by "special" I mean the short-bus variety.

"Recognize the phrase 'national interest' as a synonym for 'self-interest' and you will find no moral obstacle that cannot be removed from the highway of ambition."
-Lewis Lapham

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-Winston Churchill

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#209007 - 12/17/06 07:08 PM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: DubhGhaill]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
Why not?

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#209008 - 12/17/06 10:13 PM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: Danny Mc.]
DubhGhaill Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 11
I've re-read pages 155-156 a couple of times. What I'm really asking is why not Arameic or Babylonian or anything with a little more historical veracity?

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#209009 - 12/17/06 11:34 PM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: DubhGhaill]
fatebender Offline
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Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 537
Loc: Sin City
When John Dee invented the Enochian language, he was using a mystical Aztec artifact, known as "the eye of Texcatlipoca," a channel for an evil god. When Dee decided to call it "angelic" he was just making himself look like a nicer person.

If you read through old grimoires, you will find that the magic words which invoke the powers guaranteed by their demonic pact are often "in the name of jesus christ" or some similar hogwash. If they used different magic words, they could have been burned alive or mobbed (or worse.)

Anton LaVey could afford to be honest.
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"When everyone is reading Neitzche, I'll be watching Don Ameche." ASL

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#209010 - 12/18/06 12:14 AM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: DubhGhaill]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:

I've re-read pages 155-156 a couple of times. What I'm really asking is why not Arameic or Babylonian or anything with a little more historical veracity?




Do you always insist your fantasies have "veracity"?
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reprobate

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#209011 - 12/18/06 12:40 AM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: reprobate]
DubhGhaill Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 11
Quote:


Do you always insist your fantasies have "veracity"?




Not always, but I usually prefer them to have some basis in reality.

Maybe I need to do a little more research into John Dee?

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#209012 - 12/18/06 12:57 AM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: DubhGhaill]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Does it really matter?

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#209013 - 12/18/06 01:04 AM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: Mr_47]
DubhGhaill Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 11
Quote:

Does it really matter?




That's kind of what I'm asking.

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#209014 - 12/18/06 01:09 AM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: DubhGhaill]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:

but I usually prefer them to have some basis in reality.




Would hardly be a worthwile fantasy then, now would it?
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- Sam Harris





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#209015 - 12/18/06 02:08 AM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: DubhGhaill]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
It seemed to me you were asking why the Good Doktor chose Enochian. I am asking why it is important to you that he did or didn't. It works, so be it.

Even if he had chose a different language it would have been for his own reasons. I don't see the importance in worrying over what language the keys are in.

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#209016 - 12/18/06 06:25 AM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: Wile_E_Quixote]
Evol Offline


Registered: 12/10/06
Posts: 34
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Quote:

Surely that's entirely appropriate choice of language for a religion that reveres the qualities of the most famous angel of them all?




I find some pleasure in that response. I also found pleasure in the thought that languages (or at least some) used Satanicly may revolve in some way around Aramaic so as to despise the "teacher" but that is a little off topic and I agree with xDravenx:

Quote:

Even if he had chose a different language it would have been for his own reasons. I don't see the importance in worrying over what language the keys are in.




however the fantasy was for me fun
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"There are problems in today's world that cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them" Albert Einstein "A man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life." Charles Darwin

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#209017 - 12/18/06 09:01 AM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: DubhGhaill]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:

Not always, but I usually prefer them to have some basis in reality.




What, exactly, would be the "reality" of invoking Satan in Aramaic? What kind of "basis" are you looking for?

What kind of validity would be gained by using an historical language? Historical accuracy? Aramaic speakers didn't tend to do our kinds of rituals. So there's nothing to keep accurate to.

The line of thought you're suggesting leads to pretension.

We use languages that are aesthetically or intellectually conducive to the kind of atmosphere we want to cultivate in the ritual. On this criterion, Enochian, or Lovecraft's language of the Great Old Ones, or maybe Tolkien's Black Speech, are all on the same playing field as Aramaic or Latin.

(They also have one relative advantage: Aramaic was an everyday, ho-hum language. Whatever qualities it may have acquired that make it interesting for ritual use are pretty much haphazardly gained, and inconsistent. Invented languages are designed to be magical through and through.)

We're not looking to be "genuine"! We want EFFICACY.

Why not use a fake language? Or even make an entirely new language of one's own, using letters and combinations of your choice?

If you are hung up on history, that's cool; use it in your rituals. But that's your own hang-up. You might give the alternative a try. Or plain old English. Beware erecting gods above your own needs. Blaspheming history itself is fair game for a Satanist.
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reprobate

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#209018 - 12/18/06 09:35 AM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: reprobate]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida

We use languages that are aesthetically or intellectually conducive to the kind of atmosphere we want to cultivate in the ritual. On this criterion, Enochian, or Lovecraft's language of the Great Old Ones, or maybe Tolkien's Black Speech, are all on the same playing field as Aramaic or Latin.


Should I ever feel the need for a destruction ritual, I'll write one in Klingon.
_________________________
Everyone is special in their own way, and by "special" I mean the short-bus variety.

"Recognize the phrase 'national interest' as a synonym for 'self-interest' and you will find no moral obstacle that cannot be removed from the highway of ambition."
-Lewis Lapham

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill

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#209019 - 12/18/06 09:54 AM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: fatebender]
Dark_Adept Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 884
Loc: High Hades
A comrade and I used to bicker on this. John Dee's and the Doktor's translations differ from the literal translations of Enochian. My friend had a lot of time on his hands and did some research on Enochian and took the time to translate the keys literally word for word, some words had no English equivalent so they were omitted and of course you fill in the gaps with English as with any other language. After debating about the "authenticity" of the potency of Enochian in a ritual context I concluded that it's more of the conviction and effect that you put into the chanting as well as the recitation of the words as opposed to dissecting them to find out if their literal translation will aid in producing the desired effect. This is what my friend was arguing, "Well, I think it would be more powerful if you could recite it in Enochian while knowing what it means in English in your mind." I concluded perhaps, but I feel the words themselves have innate power and the human emotion is the catalyst. This is probably why some Satanists prefer to use Aramaic, Latin or what have you and others stick to Enochian. One thing that cleared it all up for me is when the Doktor mentioned that you could even read a passage from Rudyard Kipling to get your desired effect. It's not set in stone and that's what always appealed to me about Satanism.
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#209020 - 12/18/06 06:14 PM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: reprobate]
DubhGhaill Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 11
Thanks guys, that's cleared things up for me nicely.

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#341804 - 07/23/08 03:37 PM Has anyone found this author useful? [Re: DubhGhaill]
ror Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 1613
Loc: DracUR, Kalifornien: Yay Area
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2008/07/22.html#recap

Writer and lecturer Lon Milo DuQuette discussed 'Enochian' magick, and one of its practitioners, John Dee-- the first Queen Elizabeth's own 'Merlin.' Dee, a renowned mathematician and scientist, sought to access the mind of angels, and in 1582, he teamed up with the clairvoyant Edward Kelley to make contact with a number of entities. The spiritual beings they reached identified themselves as angels-- the same that communicated with Enoch of biblical times, DuQuette explained. These angels revealed secrets about creation and consciousness, he added.

The magical system Dee & Kelley developed from their contacts involved "calls" in an angelic language, and DuQuette presented one on the air. Known as TEX, the call was a description of creation, said to open the lowest of the Enochian heavens, the 30th. These calls can bring about specific states of altered consciousness, he said.

The Enochian techniques systematically explore 30 levels of heaven. To access these states, a person can use scrying, and the correct call to open up a particular ether or heaven, then sit quietly for 10-15 minutes, and afterwards make a written record, DuQuette detailed. He also noted that Aleister Crowley adopted Enochian Magick in his work.

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#341807 - 07/23/08 03:51 PM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: DubhGhaill]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Because historical veracity only matters to people who have nothing left to grasp onto. Christians are all about historical veracity, they certainly don't have reason, common sense or philosophical veracity to hold onto.
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"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#341815 - 07/23/08 04:38 PM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Posthuman Offline


Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 33
Loc: Seattle
Aren't all languages "made up" in a way, derivative of older languages also made up of even older languages etc, do we have to go back to grunts and squeals to find the original root?

I like the Klingon idea!
_________________________
"god" was an invention of Satan, to teach us how stupid we are. magic always works, but our expectations are often at odds with reality.

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#341819 - 07/23/08 05:56 PM Re: Why Enochian? [Re: Dark_Adept]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11554
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Behemoth90731
A comrade and I used to bicker on this. John Dee's and the Doktor's translations differ from the literal translations of Enochian.

That's always a big complaint I hear from the Crowley fan club. I always point out that LaVey's translation is, as he says right in the book, "archaic but Satanically correct".

And to quote the Enochian Pronunciation Guide article: "I find most annoying the person who demands a word-for-word translation of the Keys, not realizing they are virtually like Pigeon English in their lack of grammatical nuance and literary style. If they were to be translated literally, you may be assured that the chanter would sound most inarticulate!"
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