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#212537 - 01/02/07 05:18 PM A question of concepts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Priesthood of Mendes,

I trust this finds you well.

Before asking the intended question, I suspect that you get a number of people seeking to waste your time by asking questions that have little relevance to Satanism, I would therefore like to reasure you on two issues.

1) I have searched high and low for the answer to this question before posting it on this board.
2) The answer will contribute significantly to my serious consideration of seeking affiliation with the Church of Satan.

Being as Satanism as a philosophy has in many ways been influenced by it, what is the Church's current stance on Thelema and the writings of Crowley?

Furthermore while I sympathize with Satanism's consensus regarding monotheistic orthodoxies, eastern mysticism, pseudo-Satanism and Wicca, what is the Church's stance concerning magical movements such as the Golden Dawn and Rosicrucianism? (ie they influenced Crowley and therefore indirectly influenced LaVey's work)

I look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,
Leo

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#212538 - 01/02/07 06:08 PM Re: A question of concepts [Re: ]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8238
Thelemic magic, Golden Dawn et all are white light philosophies, and are not viewed with high regard, if any.

Crowley was not a Satanist, he was a drug addict that produced countless books, but very little in the realm of tangible results. He died broke.

OTO members have usually looked down their noses at the COS. Israel Regardie, one of the major proponents of Golden Dawn mysticism, also had criticisms regarding the COS, and members of said organization are also critical of the COS.

Magister Sprague wrote an article titled "Regarding Regardie" in "The Cloven Hoof" Issue # 127 addressing some of this.

Individual members may find and adapt material from any source for ritual work, even from GD or Thelema, but for the most part all this material is nonsense and coated in the same syrupy, guilt ridden miasma found in white light religions.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#212539 - 01/05/07 05:29 PM Re: A question of concepts [Re: Phineas]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Phineas,

Thank you for your reply.

Does not LaVey quote much from Crowley as well as draw-up on many of his ideas concerning individualism and magic?
However I understand your viewpoint. Taking this to another place would I be correct in postulating that Satanism allows the Satanist to draw upon any source for ritual material?

Sincerely,
Prince Of Babalon

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#212540 - 01/05/07 07:27 PM Return to the source. [Re: ]
Nemo Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12416
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
_________________________
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Nemo on Satanism - an mp3 audio program

THE FIRE FROM WITHIN

Nemo On Satanism: Volume One
Satanic Sources - Print

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http://youtu.be/PCcYWmeSkCI



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#212541 - 01/05/07 07:28 PM Re: A question of concepts [Re: ]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8238
Quote:





Does not LaVey quote much from Crowley as well as draw-up on many of his ideas concerning individualism and magic?





In a word, no.

From The Satanic Bible, page 103: " Aside from some rather charming poetry and a smattering of magical bric-a-brac, when not climbing mountains Crowley spent most of his time as a poseur par excellence and worked overtime to be wicked. "

Refer to "The Book of Belial" in The Satanic Bible for a complete view of Satanic magic.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#212542 - 01/05/07 07:30 PM Cross-posting. [Re: Phineas]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12416
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Same story, different posts at same time!
_________________________
DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD
The Achievement of Infinite Self-Esteem
Nemo on Satanism - an mp3 audio program

THE FIRE FROM WITHIN

Nemo On Satanism: Volume One
Satanic Sources - Print

My 9sense interview on Greater Magic:
http://youtu.be/PCcYWmeSkCI



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#212543 - 01/05/07 07:32 PM Re: Cross-posting. [Re: Nemo]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8238
I bow before you!
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#212544 - 01/05/07 07:35 PM Re: Cross-posting. [Re: Phineas]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12416
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
We must be careful to bump heads!
_________________________
DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD
The Achievement of Infinite Self-Esteem
Nemo on Satanism - an mp3 audio program

THE FIRE FROM WITHIN

Nemo On Satanism: Volume One
Satanic Sources - Print

My 9sense interview on Greater Magic:
http://youtu.be/PCcYWmeSkCI



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#212545 - 01/11/07 03:10 PM Re: Return to the source. [Re: Nemo]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Magisters Phineas and Nemo,

Thank you both for your reply.

I found the link to the article in the Cloven Hoof answered my question. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Prince of Babalon

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#212546 - 01/12/07 09:58 AM Re: A question of concepts [Re: Phineas]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
Quote:

OTO members have usually looked down their noses at the COS. Israel Regardie, one of the major proponents of Golden Dawn mysticism, also had criticisms regarding the COS, and members of said organization are also critical of the COS.




While there is a vast amount of documented evidence to support Magister Phineas' statement, I'd like to share a personal experience to hammer this point home.

A very dear friend of mine is an initiate in the OTO. We've had many a discussion about occult philosophy over multiple cups of Starbucks. One day, after a particularly heated discussion, my friend lashed out at me with an opinion that is shared by most Thelemites, and other white-light types:

"You know... this is why the rest of the occult community thinks you guys are a bunch of arrogant, conceited assholes."

My only reply to my friend was, "We wouldn't have it any other way."
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#212547 - 01/12/07 10:32 AM Re: A question of concepts [Re: ]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
In the few instances Crowley is mentioned or quoted by Dr. LaVey it is usually to correct the mistaken idea that Crowley was a Satanist.

Somewhere in the general forum there is a long thread discussing this in detail.

Crowley was not a Satanist.

Whatever specific ideas overlap between Satanism and Thelema are outweighed by differences, especially concerning other-worldly "spirituality" and drugs.

It is true that Satanists are not restricted from drawing on ANY source for ritual material provided it does not conflict with the fundamental ideas of Satanism. If you like elements of Crowley's rituals for aesthetic or dramatic reasons, use them, just don't delude yourself into thinking you are mainlining some "spiritual" reality.


Edited by Svengali (01/12/07 10:36 AM)
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder. -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#212548 - 01/12/07 10:40 AM Re: A question of concepts [Re: Magister_Harris]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
I've had similar exchanges with OTO people that I know.

One claimed the CoS was "just a bunch of headbangers", which puts him on par with Christians and Journalists in assuming anyone they encounter CLAIMING to be a Satanist really is one.

I've met people who really were OTO members who were far worse than the dumbest people I've encountered claiming to be Satanists. They are notoriously lax in the quality control department. There are also some people I like in the OTO.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder. -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#212550 - 01/12/07 11:19 AM Re: A question of concepts [Re: Quaark]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Lets put it this way, if you never read Crowley in your life as a Satanist, you have not missed anything substantially bearing on Satanism.

If you happen to find him interesting as a character, or interesting in the context of the history of magic and occultism, or as a literary figure, then whatever stimulus you get justifies itself.

He is categorically overrated, even as an esoteric teacher.

As I've said before, the time most people spend on Crowley would be better spent on C.G. Jung or the non-pop writings of Joseph Campbell (MASKS OF GOD, HISTORICAL ATLAS OF WORLD MYTHOLOGY, etc).

But that is just my opinon.

In the past I have found him amusing because I enjoy symbolism, quadruple endentes, etc.

When I've pressed people who are obsessed with Crowley as to what they think they are actually getting out of it, it boils down to A) "spiritual" mumbo jumbo, or B) tittilation.

In most cases they are frequently unfamiliar with anything outside of that specific niche of Crowley/Golden Dawn Llewellyn-type garbage on ritual magic, the qabala, etc.

Some of the key works are probably worth reading just for the sake of background.

Read John Symonds' THE GREAT BEAST - it is very entertaining and will give you an idea as to whether or not Crowley is worth spending any more time on.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder. -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#212552 - 01/12/07 11:37 AM Re: A question of concepts [Re: Quaark]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
There are several thousand books I would recommend to an intelligent person before anything by or about Aleister Crowley.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder. -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#212553 - 01/12/07 12:37 PM Re: A question of concepts [Re: Quaark]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8238
Just for fun, OTO = Ordo Templi Orientis. Heavy into Egyptian and Masonic symbolism, plus the usual Crowley stuff.

Symmonds "The Great Beast" is a good read. And if you want to see how the Golden Dawners, Crowley types think, Israel Regardie's "The Eye in the Triangle" is kind of fun, with some neat pictures. He was Crowley's secretary for a while.

As Magister Svengali stated below, from the historical and curiosity perspective, it is interesting to read.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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