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#212727 - 01/03/07 06:51 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: Catalyst]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
When you're aware that you're ignorant about a topic, your opinion of that topic, isn't really an opinion.

So here you go:

This is a good place to start, although I'm a bit disappointed that Richard Dawkins is not on this list, so you'll likely want to check out these as well:

1. The Selfish Gene
2. The Extended Phenotype
3. The Blind Watchmaker
4. River out of Eden
5. Climbing Mount Improbable

Richard Dawkins has two other books, but they are not directly tied in with evolutionary biology.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a personís faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#212728 - 01/03/07 06:59 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:

"Sure, honey. You sure do have me by the balls. I bow before your superior intellect. Can I please put it in your butt now? Thanks."




The power of the taint is a strong one!

Many a man has fallen before it's coveted glory!

Unless of course I'm just speaking for myself here.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a personís faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#212729 - 01/03/07 07:06 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
For the record, since some people may take this theoretical truth a bit too seriously, I'd warn against confusing ultimate causes with proximate causes and everyday reality.

In theory, our genes want us to replicate them as many times as possible, and whomever does this the best 'wins.'

(Somewhere there's a Mormon and a crack-addicted babydaddy out there beating the pants off all you boys as we speak.)

In a case where real-life 'winning' coincides with genetic 'winning,' it is possible, even likely, that Genghis Khan's Y chromosome is now carried by as many as 16 million men. **

However, for most of us, the ultimate cause of genetic replication has little or nothing to do with our everyday lives or the way things work in the real world. Something in my jeans reminds me several times a day that my genes would very much like me to go out and impregnate as many women as possible, until someone's brother bonks me on the head. Obviously, that is not going to happen, for a variety of reasons. We don't design our societies to mimic what our genes want us to do at the most basic level. We probably evolved a lot of our other capacities for conflict resolution, reason, etc., because trying to hump everything in site is a bad survival strategy (For instance, if men are out thoughtlessly humping each other's women all of the time, you have total war and that's bad for women, too).

Theories suggesting that women 'choose the best' man are a bit dicey. Who says that when the strongest man beats all of the other men, a female has a 'choice' in the matter? Women actually don't have to 'consent' to be impregnated. Again, the notion of 'consent' is a mechanism civilized societies (traditionally, men) create to protect their womenfolk.***

What Leviathan XIII said is theoretically true at the textbook level. (Except for the part about women being smarter, which is an oversimplification, to say the least. This web site and the computer you're viewing it on are the result of a millenia-old intellectual pissing contest wherein men tried to outdo each other.) But it means virtually nothing at the street or individual level.

It is also theoretically true at the textbook level that government serves the people. We theoretically have government to protect us from outsiders and each other, etc., and in countries like America (and others) politicians actually have to go through the motions of 'serving' the people's whims. However, if you cross the government, you will quickly find that you are actually NOT in control at all.

I think that historically speaking, the relationship between men and women can be seen in a similar way. You can have due process, amour courtois, etc., but you'd do well to remember that both the government and men can easily take what they want whenever they want it. Might is right.

Some of you have made BDSM references. Remember that 'topping from below' only works because there is some sort of agreement as to what is permissible. The bottom relies on the trustworthiness and benevolence of the top. Remove that, and suddenly you're in a very awkward and disadventageous position, to say the least.

Here's a fun tip.

If you ever want to REALLY piss off an obnoxious feminist, you might explain to her that:

The idea of 'equal rights' for women relies entirely on the benevolence of men.

It's as undeniably true as the biological point made above.

In all fairness, the reality is that there's a lot of complex give and take between men and women and that while it may be true both that men are biologically enslaved to women and that the freedom of women relies completely on the goodwill of men, neither bit of information has a lot to do with the price of tea in China.

I will say that dazzling a woman with a similar explanation for why "I'm biologically a slave to you, baby" is probably a great way to get into her pants.

**This idea is from Bryan Sykes' Adam's Curse.
***This idea wasn't in the post above, but was implied in some of the responses to this and that *other* thread.


Edited by Rev_Malebranche (01/03/07 07:33 PM)

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#212730 - 01/03/07 07:41 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
tekku Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1261
Loc: Behind You
Quote:

Classic, girls.

Turn it around.

"A woman is just a vagina whose delusions of superiority need to be humored."

Is that an acceptable sentiment?

Question:

Don't you think it's possible that many of the men who are defending women's equality and happily conceding that women control them are doing exactly that?

"Sure, honey. You sure do have me by the balls. I bow before your superior intellect. Can I please put it in your butt now? Thanks."




Its still funny either way you look at it Reverend!
I dont care where he puts it as long as it stays hard for more than one minute

But in all seriousness.
I think this has all gone a bit too far.

The way I see it is behind every great man there is an even greater woman.

I think if the sexes spent less time trying to control and compete with each other and women LEARNED how to be women again.

Things would be alot better all around and instead of the situation that is prevalent now in society between men and women, there would be a win-win situation for everyone.

I dont know about anyone else, but all these metro-sexual pussychoir boys masquerading as men, litererally makes my stomach turn.
_________________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die
~H.P. Lovecraft~

La bonne cuisine est la base du vťritable bonheur ~Escoffier~

Church of Satan

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#212731 - 01/03/07 07:51 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Noel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1220
Loc: Amerika
Quote:

Without the social constructs that protect women, this whole notion of perfect equality and men being slaves to women would fall apart rapidly. In the same way that Hurrican Katrina revealed what happens when law and order breaks down.




Rev.,

Yep, "the rule of thumb" comes to mind. The rule that proscribed beating women with any sticks larger than the circumference of the thumb. Funny that, slaves beating their masters so much that the beating utensils had to be regulated.

NOTE: I'm joking. Alabama law may be different than the law of other areas.


Edited by Noel (01/03/07 08:02 PM)

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#212732 - 01/03/07 08:40 PM Men are Slaves: Explained [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
I do so love causing a stir. What a delight this thread has been, getting everyone into a tizzy. The cause of that tizzy, of course, is that there is what I said, and what you read.

There can be very little doubt that at a level of pure evolutionary function, males (not just human males, I notice that this has been a rather anthropocentric discussion for most of you) are a drone gender designed to perform the tasks that reproductive duties inhibit in females, and also to be disposable. That's almost always true, across the board for animals.

My humorous jabs aside, I think if you examine the evidence for this, you'll see that it's undoubtably true, and still true in humans. The hilarious part is that the arguments against my point, singing the praises of males, all reference the wondrous feats men accomplish, and somehow completely miss that my post stated very plainly that accomplishing those feats is exactly the task of men.

The equally hilarious part is that everyone completely missed that I stated outright that the biological function of women is to reproduce and care for young, and that's it.

Now, for the biology education impaired among you, a breakdown of how this is true:

You must accept the following biological truths:

a) The foremost function of all life is reproduction. Feeding, fighting, all forms of labor, are essentially for the purpose of facilitating successful reproduction. Eating keeps you alive long enough to reproduce. Fighting gives you the right to reproduce, at least you hope so. All tasks, human or animal, have the end goal of successful reproduction in mind. If you can't understand this, then stop here, and return to high school biology. There is nothing I can do for you.

b) Females carry out almost all of the reproductive task proper.

c) Males may, in many species, and including humans, carry out almost all of the non-reproductive tasks.

Taking the above stipulations, all of which are true of humans on a purely biological level, then my point is quite on target.

The problem virtually everyone had was that they could not make the cognitive leap from evolutionary function to human reality. They got suckered in by buzzwords, which is exactly how I worded this post. Some of you did, by the way, understand exactly what I said, and I congratulate them for getting it. I also congratulate those with enough sense of humor to realize what was "fact" and what was "joke."

Does the fact that males are an evolutionary drone gender rob your life of meaning? Only if you're stupid enough to let it. The fact is very plain, even from the "virtues" most of you gave for males, that you are indeed living up to your evolutionary intention, valuing labor, invention, and strength, just as good males should. Does this mean it's a bad thing? Not in the least, at least no worse than the fact that women are evolutionarily intended to pop out offspring and rear them.

So why did I make such an inflammatory post? To prove that evolutionary design and biological function, and the reality of human experience, are indeed one and the same yet the perspective you take on your own life is all that truly matters. Yes men, nature has shaved ten years off your natural life span, and given you a hormone that drives you to do aggressive, dangerous things while you are alive, but it's what you do with the years you have that will truly matter. If you're truly a god, as so many of you claim to be, what evolution designed you for is only the foundation on which you build your own design for existence.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#212733 - 01/03/07 08:45 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: Old_Pig]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Clearly, "Who's on top?" isn't at all a straightforward question.

I also recommend "Dr. Tatiana's Sex Advice to All Creation." In one chapter, "Dr. Tatiana" debunks the common notion that men are always philanderers, and females are choosy and loyal. In some species, the females sleep around a lot, and the males are none the wiser! Of course, in other species, the male is indeed promiscuous, if not sexually forceful.

Interesting thing about primates---yes, in most species, one male will typically rule a troop predominantly consisting of females and juveniles, sometimes with the help of a male pal or two. Though, if you mess with a baby or you abuse the wrong female, there's a good chance the ladies will band together to kick your monkey arse, so there are potential eventual consequences for being a bully.

When it comes to us, we have been biologically primed to do certain things and respond in certain ways, and it's true that, in a very real way, our genes are driving the bus and offering us very rational-sounding rationalizations and intellectualizations along the way. But, if we acknowledge this, we can choose to a great degree how the bus gets driven, we can enjoy the ride, and we can see to it that our genes don't drive us into a ditch.

I've been noticing lately that my instincts are trying to get me to warm up to the idea of pregnancy. Tricky, tricky!
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#212734 - 01/03/07 08:48 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: Nidhogg]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Quote:

Most women have rape fantasies, its like the 2nd or 3rd most common sex fantasy amongst women. My ex told me that when she was while she was doing my dishes.




Just to be clear, the rape fantasy can be divided into two, very generalized categories. The majority of women who fantasize about rape are fantasizing about an obscure, powerful, usually faceless, man, who somehow corcively seduces them and forces sex. The psychological theory is that this fantasy appeals to women who feel guilty for wanting sex and are absolved of said guilt by having sex Ďforcedí on them.

This group is not fantasizing about someone who beats them and fucks them till they bleed.

The second category, does.

***
On another note, isnít most of this game that men and women play with each part of the appeal in the first place? Iíve read some books and had some conversations: people just go round in circles. Mostly I boil things down to how the man in front of me deals with our dynamic of power and how comfortable I am either submitting and/or dominating.

Regardless of whether or not he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that we both want to have me fucked in the ass while having my hair pulled...the flirting is fun.

Not that I do those things; I'm a good girl.

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#212735 - 01/03/07 08:55 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Oh, darn, I don't have the book with me, but I do recall reading that, in a survey of college guys, a notable percentage admitted that they would be willing to rape a girl if they wouldn't get caught.

Of course, psychologists and others can potentially argue for hours over whether this is nature, nurture, or a bit of both (and then, how much of each?).
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#212736 - 01/03/07 08:59 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: Zaftig]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
And then, there are probably different reasons why a person has a rape fantasy.

Some no doubt feel guilt over having sexual urges, so feel absolved of their guilt if sex is "forced" on them.

Some are masochists, and from there, some are aroused by the idea of physical pain, and others are aroused by the idea of humiliation or eustress.

Some are submissive.

Some dig the rape fantasy because, for lack of a better description, they want to be "surprised" by the twists and turns of the sexual encounter.

Of course, a person can be motivated by more than one thing.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#212737 - 01/03/07 09:07 PM Re: BUG [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
redheadgrl Offline


Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 273
Quote:

The equally hilarious part is that everyone completely missed that I stated outright that the biological function of women is to reproduce and care for young, and that's it.

b) Females carry out almost all of the reproductive task proper.

If you're truly a god, as so many of you claim to be, what evolution designed you for is only the foundation on which you build your own design for existence.




I'm a BUG then (biologically useless Goddess). I love it!!!!!! I mock the gods of fertility!

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#212738 - 01/03/07 09:24 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
I've got my 10 foot pole and it ain't touchin'. (fuck, how many ways can you interpret that one? )
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Hell of All Hells

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#212739 - 01/03/07 09:26 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: tekku]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Quote:

But in all seriousness.
I think this has all gone a bit too far.

The way I see it is behind every great man there is an even greater woman.




Yes, women love to say that. I don't know if it's necessarily true. But women do love to say it.

And we're all supposed to nod along.

This hasn't 'gone too far,' by the way...

It's just playtime. Nothing to be taken so terribly seriously.




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#212740 - 01/03/07 09:28 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: TrojZyr]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Indeed.

And, like many fantasies, how many of them would people act on, given the opportunity? They're like religion that way, the unexamined assumptions underlying the fantasy reveal more that the fantasies themselves.

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#212741 - 01/03/07 09:30 PM Re: Men are Slaves [Re: HellofallHells]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

I've got my 10 foot pole and it ain't touchin'. (fuck, how many ways can you interpret that one? )




Oh, I can think of several.
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Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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