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#220688 - 02/08/07 03:09 PM "Anton LaVey was a fraud"
The_Sixth_Circle Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 432
Loc: Hell; where else?
[This is from another of my blogs - the original can be found here.]

Yet again, I've recently been told that Anton Szandor LaVey was a fraud, a trickster, a charlatan, a cheat and a general scallywag. All manner of kooks have kindly informed me of this, telling me that I shouldn't be a Satanist because of his un-Satanic lifestyle and that he was a contradiction to his own message.

While I don't invariably get involved in discussions of this type due to the inane intellect of the antagonist, I've been asked this question so many times that I suspect a link that I can quote will serve me better than repeating myself. Therefore, read this and inwardly digest it; if you still wish to pursue your crusade against Dr. LaVey, then you're a retard and shouldn't bother contacting me again.

In fact, go talk to the wall; you were made for each other.

First and foremost, we get the imbecilic statement that Dr. LaVey wasn't actually Dr. LaVey - he was christened by another name and we should judge him on this. Why? As a self professed God of his own choosing, he adopted the title that suited him best, tipping his hat to the influences he cherished. Is it inconveivable to think that a loving son might wish to disassociate from his parents to spare them reprisals for his actions? I needn't belabour this point, though, when I can ask a simple question:

Who is Vincent Furnier? Robert Zimmerman? William Bailey? Brian Warner? Declan McManus? David Robert Jones? Marion Morrison? Anna Bullock? Are any of the aforementioned household names?

No?

You bet your life they are. The only reason they're not familiar in name, is because they chose their own destinies and made themselves into what they wanted to be. If you need help identifying them, use "Google".

Another criticism of the late Dr. is that he claimed many things that weren't true. Despite reams of photographic evidence to the contrary, people are still quick to point out the inconsistencies in some of his claims. "We can't find him on police photography records"; could he have been freelance? "We can't find records of him with the circus or carnival"; is administration the strong point of such people? "Marilyn Monroe and Jayne Mansfield claimed they never knew him"; could they have been lying, knowing the damage that could be done to their careers (a problem many Satanists still live with)?

Perhaps the most sobering of this tittle-tattle, is the amount of morons who cite the words of Diane, Karla or Zeena LaVey. Their first, last and biggest problem is that they take them at their words! In lieu of any evidence, people tell me to look at LaVey with cynicism and not to simply believe what I'm told. These people then swallow what other LaVey's have said (Diane, Karla, Zeena and, whisper it, Stanton) in a wonderful display of retarded contradiction. I think your intellectual cud needs chewed a little longer.

In saying all of this, none of the conventional defence is actually necessary when defending Dr. LaVey. When considering Satanism, people discount it because of his personal preferences to life. This is, in itself, stupidity of the highest degree. Because Satanism is about individualism, each and every Satanist will have differences in the way they live. Dr. LaVey lived differently to Magus Gilmore, who lives differently from Magister Nemo, who lives differently to Magister Svengali, who lives differently to every other Satanist on the planet. The bottom line is that being a Satanist is about living your life how you best see fit and not actually worrying about whether you're a Satanist or not; you will naturally fall into that grouping if you're supposed to, hence the "born not made" dictum.

Lumping the personal life of a person in with what is written in "The Satanic Bible" is idiocy, yet, it appears like an intellectual refutation of Satanism, per se. As hinted above, when individualism is key, only the framework of Satanic philosophy will tie people into the Church of Satan and its viewpoints. In the absence of such framework, you get a gaggle of monkeys jumping around pretending at having a bright and/or industrious existence, when all they're doing is fighting over a banana.

Bad monkey!

However, if you take the above as true, Dr. LaVey was a perfect proponent of Satanism. He lived his life as he saw fit, making changes where required and shifting the comfort levels of everyone who crossed his path. If Satanists are "making history every day", the Dr. was the first, and best, of his kind.

My final point here, however, is the most important. It actually ignores the whole discussion to an extent and identifies what is actually important when considering any religious ideal:

The message.

There are a large amount of Thelemites who have sent me messages telling me that LaVey was a conman who should be ignored. When I inform them that Crowley was a buggery addicted, herion addled, sex pest, I'm invariably told that you shouldn't judge the man by his actions but, instead, by the quality of the material he puts out.

Some of you will be nodding your heads in agreement. Others, will have just heard the trap snap shut.

Why on earth should I listen to people who can't actually conform to basic principles of logic? They tell me to look at the work of Crowley when judging him, yet to ignore the work of Dr. LaVey when judging him! The Satanic Bible started an international cabal of eclectic individuals, intellectuals and aesthetes that correspond and work together to this day. The message in The Satanic Bible (as well as Dr. LaVey's other works) is timeless, as it's written from history with a view to the future. As an influence, Dr. LaVey is unrivalled and this is why his detractors, spiteful vermin that they are, come out of the woodwork to attack him. They don't accept that he did what they shouldn't, did what they wouldn't, did what they couldn't. Not only that, he did it with more expertise, class, wit and magical knowledge than they could ever claim.

When judging Dr. LaVey (or anyone else, for that matter), look at what he achieved as opposed to what he didn't achieve. Consider, just for a moment, the lasting impact he has had on Western civilisation and the continuing influence the world feels because of his existence.

The fact is, Dr. LaVey was a monolith; a Satanic archetype that ripped into Christian apathy and showed it for the ridiculous sham that it is. He brought magic to an audience that had a life outside a ritual chamber and encouraged the talented to make their mark however they wanted to make it. He brought together a group of oddities from an international forum, while transmuting fiction, fact, psychology and experience into a wonderful mix that we now know as the Satanic philosophy and the Church of Satan. And not a single point that is brought against his sexual preferences, his liking of a joke, his choice of friends or the fact he wanted to visit a fish with no trousers can ever change this.

I will end now. But in order to make sure nothing is lost in the translation of this little article, I'll leave you with a famous quote:

"The mistakes of great people are worth more than the mistakes of little people".

If you wish to insult Dr. LaVey, present your credentials as his superior. Otherwise, open the fridge, take out the bottle and pour yourself a tall glass of "Shut the fuck up".
_________________________
Have You Met The Alien Elite? / The Sixth Circle @ Myspace

Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived. - Sir Oscar Wilde

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#220689 - 02/08/07 03:40 PM Re: "Anton LaVey was a fraud" [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Stands and applauds.



Hail Anton Szandor LaVey!

Hail Satan!
_________________________
´┐ŻLove is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.´┐Ż
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#220690 - 02/08/07 03:44 PM Re: "Anton LaVey was a fraud" [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
Fenriz Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 807
Loc: Washington
Excellent!

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#220693 - 02/08/07 05:05 PM Re: "Anton LaVey was a fraud" [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Aye, aye, aye.

Of course, I also like to add that I don't call myself a Satanist because LaVey knocked up Marilyn Monroe! I don't respect LaVey because I'm under the delusion that he invented the Enochian Keys, or signed any pact with the Real Devil, or anything like that. I fully realize that some elements of Satanism and of LaVey's life exist purely for the purpose of psychodrama and intrigue. If your "faith" (ha) rests in LaVey being 100% original, or being a hardcore occultist like Crowley or Madame Blavatsky, or being a dour saint like St. Anthony or Jesus Christ, you're in the wrong department.

Naturally, people also need to realize that I am not an occultist, nor am I complete secularist, so Satanism does indeed satisfy personal needs of mine that Objectivism or Thelema could not. I get skepticism, and I get pragmatism, but I also get to play with religion, symbolism, and ritual, too.
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#220694 - 02/08/07 06:23 PM Re: "Anton LaVey was a fraud" [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
Mythil Offline


Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 110
Loc: UK, Portsmouth
Well, lets just assume for a moment that he was the one lying. Now, we must ask ourselves, does it really matter? How many of us have lied on say, a CV to get a job, or started bragging about something we have not done, or exaggerated just a little, I suspect just about everyone has.
Another thing we must keep in mind, what was the reputation of other religious leaders?
We know that quite a few were very disreputable characters.
Lavey might, MIGHT, have lied, he MIGHT not have done the things he said.. But really, who gives a shit.. Shouldn't we forget about his past and only concentrate on his views if that were the case?
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My Heaven is your hell - Lordi "He was the sort of person who stood on mountaintops during thunderstorms in wet copper armour shouting 'All the Gods are bastards.'" - Terry Pratchett

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#220695 - 02/08/07 08:32 PM Re: Jayne Mansfield? [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12552
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Jayne Mansfield is supposed to have claimed she never knew him?

Uh, that was long before Photoshop, back when phtographic evidence really meant something.

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#220696 - 02/08/07 08:56 PM Re: "Anton LaVey was a fraud" [Re: Mythil]
The_Sixth_Circle Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 432
Loc: Hell; where else?
That's my point. If you missed it, read the post again.
_________________________
Have You Met The Alien Elite? / The Sixth Circle @ Myspace

Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived. - Sir Oscar Wilde

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#220697 - 02/08/07 09:01 PM Re: Jayne Mansfield? [Re: Nemo]
The_Sixth_Circle Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 432
Loc: Hell; where else?
Quote:

Jayne Mansfield is supposed to have claimed she never knew him?



I'm not one hundred percent sure how the claims go; it's not something I've spent much time thinking about.

I heard that Monroe never knew him and that Mansfield used to simply think he was a joke.

As you suggest, Magister, there is many a photograph that says otherwise, however.
_________________________
Have You Met The Alien Elite? / The Sixth Circle @ Myspace

Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived. - Sir Oscar Wilde

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#220698 - 02/08/07 11:26 PM Re: "Anton LaVey was a fraud" [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
Mythil Offline


Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 110
Loc: UK, Portsmouth
I know, I just wanted to say something, but your point was very concise, just adding the frills
_________________________
My Heaven is your hell - Lordi "He was the sort of person who stood on mountaintops during thunderstorms in wet copper armour shouting 'All the Gods are bastards.'" - Terry Pratchett

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#220699 - 02/08/07 11:45 PM Re: "Anton LaVey was a fraud" [Re: Mythil]
Biff Offline


Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 370
Loc: Hong Kong, SAR
Satan Speaks
Pg. 101
The Liars Club
Line 1:
'I'm one helluva liar' -The Good Doktor

Why would Satanists care if the Good Doktor actually did hook up with Monroe?
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'Carpe diem quam minimum credulo postero' - Horace

'It's only hubris, if I fail.' - Caesar (HBO's Rome)

HAIL SATAN!

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#220700 - 02/09/07 12:43 AM Re: "Anton LaVey was a fraud" [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Well thought, well written, well done.
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#220701 - 02/09/07 03:01 AM Re: "Anton LaVey was a fraud" [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11552
Loc: New England, USA
Excellent post!

Quote:

"We can't find him on police photography records"; could he have been freelance? "We can't find records of him with the circus or carnival"; is administration the strong point of such people?




This one always made me laugh. As we all know, carnies, run-aways, side-show freaks and other circus employees must have always been SOOOO meticulous and prompt with filing out their annual tax forms for the IRS.

Quote:

In lieu of any evidence, people tell me to look at LaVey with cynicism and not to simply believe what I'm told. These people then swallow what other LaVey's have said




I think people's gullability here is mostly fueled by self-righteousness. Just as people love to believe in the urban legend that Hitler was an atheist, some people just all to willing to hear bad things (true or not) about "bad" people.
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#220702 - 02/09/07 06:00 AM Re: "Anton LaVey was a fraud" [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
I too have come across those ignorant posts about the Good Dr. One said something like -if it hadn't been for his Satanism he would have passed from this world unnoticed-. Yeah right, this is like saying that if Ronald Reagan had never been president no one would have ever known him.
People that talk like this are ignorant that's all. Dr. Anton Szandor LaVey was an intelligent man and was imaginative enough to weave either more or more credilous stories than ones he is being accussed of making up.
Those who would talk shit about Dr. Lavey most likely have never contributed anything to this world such as he did.

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#220703 - 02/09/07 07:36 AM Re: "Anton LaVey was a fraud" [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
Krowklaws Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 487
Loc: Salem MA
Excellent post and points well put! Personally, I think Dr. LaVey's teachings, writings, humor and saradonic wit cut to chase and throw the keys of living and magic directly into the hand of the reader. Most other "occultist" writings are purposely made to appear lofty and cryptic while in reality they are garbled pieces of judeo/christian supersitious trash stitched together with shreds of "anthropological" evidence that serve no real practical purpose to the living and the real world. ( Main objective seeking your holy guadian angel!) And in most cases, this tripe is merely white washed/ trashed xianity ethics and dogmas hiding under very transparent neo-pagan walmart sheets.
For me there is no discussion, either it works in real life with tangible results or it doesn't. Dr. LaVey's religion called Satanism, cuts out the middle man "god" and put the issues of deity, power, and truth directly into the hands of the reader or seeker. Plain and simple.
Job well done Mr. The _ Sixth_ Circle!
HS!
Warlock Krowklaws
_________________________
"By the Pricking of my thumbs something wicked this way comes."

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#220704 - 02/09/07 08:11 AM Re: Untouchable [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
Caesar Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
Any man or woman with a given amount of attention (especially if accoladed), whether it be the school play or major motion picture, will attract the ire of others. In some respects, this kind of behavior in others is complimentary. To be envied, you must be someone for others to envy.

Something I am proud of Doktor for is that despite the many attempts to assassinate his character (and who knows what other untold kinds of chicanery he has to deal with), stands just as tall today as ever. Usually when the masses want to defame someone, by hook or crook, it will happen. But Doktor is simply untouchable.

"Critics are like brushers of noblemen's clothes." - Sir Henry Wotton


Edited by Caesar (02/09/07 09:17 AM)
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