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#221527 - 02/13/07 11:04 AM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Babydoll]
garfield Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 110
Loc: Carcosa
Mankind couldn`t destroy the Planet, mankind could destroy itself. You can`t get millions of people to "save the nature". Mankind is and ever was a cancer-virus to this planet. Lay back and enjoy the show. Another species in the future can probably do it better.
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“No one will improve your lot if you do not yourself.”-Bertolt Brecht

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#221528 - 02/13/07 11:20 AM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Babydoll]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8898
My Third Side perspective on global warming.

Let's assume (just for fun) that in fact that human activity is indeed causing deleterious effects on the climate, and that these effects are severe and longterm.

So what?

Really, so what?

My asking this question - "So what?" - is meant to elicit the next obvious question, "What should I do about it?".

Not - "What should "we" do about it?"

Dear reader, you are (I will assume) a Satanist.

You are not a group. You do not think in terms of group actions.

You don't fall into that trap.

Having gotten that, it's time to crunch the numbers.

By that I mean, never forget your realistic ability to influence the course of events socially, technologically, and politically, on a global scale, given that you are one individual out of six billion.

Hint: it's zero, or very nearly so.

Is there anything you can do that will alter the course of events, global climate wise, regardless of whether or not the Enviros are completely right, or completely full of shit?

No.

The War Between The Enviros and Whoever They Think The Enemy Is will go on to it's conclusion unaltered by your actions.

The climate of the planet will be whatever it will be unaltered by your actions.

Just an example: just one megavolcano in Indonesia "deciding" to belch sulfur compounds into the air for an "additional" 1/1000th of a second longer than it "would have", will cancel all the greenhouse gas reducing efforts you and all your descendants will ever make.

And a counter-example: just one profit-motivated technological breakthrough in some corporate lab somewhere will outweigh all the greenhouse gas reducing efforts you and all your descendants will ever make by a factor of millions.

There are a vast number of natural factors that can and will influence global climate, either towards warming OR cooling, that will continue to be active, regardless of the silly herd pro and anti this or that of the moment.

Your "job" as a Satanist is to protect yourself and your loved ones.

Climate change occurs slowly, relative to your life span.

My best understanding of the phenomenon, (regardless of human or natural genesis), is that, if warming is the direction, historical weather patterns for a particular area will tend to become more severe.

If an area is subject to tornados, expect more of them.

If an area is subject to droughts, expect worse droughts.

If an area is subject to flooding, expect worse floods.

If an area is subject to cold winters, expect colder winters.

This is a function of more energy being inputted into a quasi-closed system - whatever local events normally occur will simply have more energy available.

It will not and cannot manifest as everyplace simply getting warmer uniformly. If you squeeze a water balloon in one place, tension will increase in one area and decrease in another. This metaphor itself is too simplistic to be of any use, except to counteract the supersloppy thinking of "if it's getting warmer, then why is "X" place on the globe getting colder?"

That's just dumb thinking indicative of zero study of planetary climatology.

Bottom line is that it is a waste of time to:

1. Worry about it.
2. Fight it.
3. Fight those who are fighting it.
4. Argue about who is right or wrong about it.
5. Construct elaborate conspiracy theories about either corporations, governments, or environmental groups.

The six billion people in the world, with their varied and conflicting agendas, will continue to seek their own interests, and that will result in whatever it's going to result in, and you and I have absolutely zero ability to affect the ultimate outcome.

What is in your power to affect is your choices of where you and your family live physically, and the particular sphere of economic activity you engage in.

And, what is in your power to affect is to stay on top of sciences current best guesses as to decades long patterns of climate change where you live or are planning to live (remember, we no longer care whether or not it's humans causing it or the Keebler Elves!), and integrate that information ino your personal plans.


Edited by Daark (04/19/07 03:00 PM)

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#221529 - 02/13/07 11:22 AM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Quaark]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Exactly!
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Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
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#221530 - 02/13/07 11:38 AM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Quaark]
gypsy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
Brilliant...
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"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie."

"Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen to be dressed for it."


Church of Satan

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#221531 - 02/13/07 03:16 PM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Minus]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:

Gas emissions from volcanoes are a natural contributor to acid rain. Volcanic activity releases about 130 to 230 teragrams (145 million to 255 million short tons) of carbon dioxide each year.
...
I realize there are no comparisons in this article dealing with the negative effects as compared to human-created effects





You don't feel that's important information to have in a discussion like this?

I hear this "volcanos are worse than humans will ever be" thing from time to time. Well, let's check it out and look at the actual numbers. Let's consider carbon dioxide only, and I'll use as dry an information source as I can find -- the official US government published figures from the USGS and the DOE.

Your figure for annual volcanic CO2 emissions matches the number given by the US Geological Survey. For the sake of argument, let's take the very top end of that estimate -- 230 teragrams, or 2.3e11 kg.

And as for man-made CO2 emissions? Let's consider only fossil fuel consumption, since that's what gets the most press these days. The US Department of Energy provides official numbers on this. The world total for 2004 is just over 27 billion metric tons -- that is, 2.7e13 kg.

2.7e13 / 2.3e11 = 117.4

Ergo, in an average year, fossil fuel combustion emits more than a hundred times the CO2 of every volcano on Earth combined. Don't believe it? Then dispute my source numbers or find a problem with my math.

Please note that I'm not "advocating" squat. I don't even consider myself an environmentalist, since the very same math will point up the sheer futility of most individual "save the Earth" actions. But I get annoyed when people try to hide behind this volcano thing. The atmospheric CO2 concentration is not a matter for debate. It's there. It's rising. People are causing it. It's very simple math. (Predictions of the exact consequences of this fact are on shakier ground, or course.)

What is so horrible about admitting that human activity has had an unintended side effect? (It certainly wouldn't be the first time it's happened.) So our species has some messy habits. Fine. Accept it and go from there.

-Chess

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#221532 - 02/13/07 03:24 PM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Chess]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8898
CO2 is far from the only:

1. Actor in climate change
2. Climate change relevant component of volcanic emissions.

Additionally, there's nothing to prevent future emissions from supervolcanoes to alter the orders of magnitude you've quoted re just CO2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervolcano

See, if we stick to science and avoid polemics (a strategy of which I approve), it quickly gets so complex we'd both have to be scientists with supercomputers for this dialogue to be meaningful anyway.



PS The CO2 feedback loop caused by the thawing of the peat in the Siberian tundra permafrost makes all this moot anyway.



Edited by Daark (02/13/07 03:26 PM)

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#221533 - 02/13/07 03:59 PM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Chess]
Minus Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 2236
Loc: Circling A Star
CO2 emissions are only part of it. Did you see all the other effects these volcanic eruptions cause?

Not to mention the fact that, while man-made sources may produce more in a year than every volcano on earth, how many more years have volcanoes existed than man and his ability to even generate these emissions? I believe the volcanoes win this battle.

If the earth is going to change, the earth will do the changing far more effectively than we. We are simply a virus with sunglasses.
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Minus

"When the great lord passes, the wise peasant bows deeply and silently farts."
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#221534 - 02/13/07 04:08 PM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Minus]
Mr Sam Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Somewhere in the UK.
Quote:

If the earth is going to change, the earth will do the changing far more effectively than we.




Such as the naturally occurring glacial and interglacial periods. Unless early man had a hand in these too?

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#221535 - 02/13/07 04:30 PM Thank you! [Re: Quaark]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12600
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Now I do not have to write another word here.

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#221536 - 02/13/07 04:34 PM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Phineas]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12600
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I like your answer as well as Daark's (above).

You are looking at the politics and he is looking at the personal.

Interesting how both result in the same view, isn't it?

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#221540 - 02/13/07 06:32 PM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Quaark]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
You Sir, are a brilliant man.

Your reply here is just another example of why I hold you in high regard.

VERY well said; I firmly concur with your perspective on this.


HS!
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Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#221542 - 02/13/07 07:02 PM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Babydoll]
Wolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 194
Loc: The Netherlands
My apologies for not having read all [up to now] 57 replies to this topic if this one already was included somewhere. I am not going to 'confess' to you nor anyone else into which degree environmental issues affect my behavior to gain a "good guy badge" - I just say that I take responsibility for my own actions and behavior, and have been doing so from the early years of environmental warning reports on, early seventies, coming of age & awareness. You sure know about your ecological footstep - how big is yours? Could you diminish it still? DO IT!
Do you drive a car or travel by plane? Do you eat meat? What kinda meat? Do you eat fish? Have you plastic materials in your house? Do you have offspring?
I know "active" vegetarians who make me wanna kill and eat raw meat and "environmentalists" who make me wanna sink oil ships at the beaches of Europe. It's the way people like you, sorry to say, try to staple the burden of the entire world population upon each and every single shoulder - hammer it in! - that gets me really angry.
Being alive & consuming means affecting the environment. If you really want to get rid of your guild you should turn to the Church of Euthanasia and follow their instructions: "Save the planet, kill yourself". They can help you do it environment-friendly & strictly vegetarian. If you donate your body to the Body Farm or leave it out in the open for the vultures, you will most certainly have done the best you can to save the planet as far as YOUR influence reaches.
To each his own.

Edit: PS - I think it was Daark who mentioned that warnings before were about the new ice age to come and how we would all freeze to death. Mink industry feasted but now we have global warming. Gilette will not fail on profits yet. I live in an area that is supposedly to be surrounded by water in the near future. Recycle? Bio-energy? The Earth will survive and maybe humankind will as well, as it has been remarkably resistant to just about any circumstance available. That does not mean I'm not concerned about the planet as a whole. Au contraire. But it's my very own footstep I care about and nothing else is of my own influence nor responsibility. And if water comes, I will defend my property to the end - if I have not moved to some less populated area by then.


Edited by Wolf (02/13/07 07:47 PM)

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#221543 - 02/13/07 07:42 PM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Quaark]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:

CO2 is far from the only:

1. Actor in climate change
2. Climate change relevant component of volcanic emissions.




Very true.

Quote:

Additionally, there's nothing to prevent future emissions from supervolcanoes to alter the orders of magnitude you've quoted re just CO2.




Also true, but unless there's a super-eruption imminent, it seems beside the point. I mean, there's nothing to prevent a tornado from making a huge mess of my house, in the process of knocking the entire thing down (and statistically speaking, a tornado MUST inevitably hit right here, sooner or later). But I still vacuum the living room rug.

Oh, and to Minus -- you're right, I zeroed in on CO2 only, since it's one of the biggest factors, and the numbers are readily available and easily comparable. But I've looked into the issue and arrived at the conclusion that yes, in recent centuries humanity has upset a lot of very old balances. Precisely what that may mean for the future remains to be seen. We might be in for a ride, but I really doubt we're Doomed. (By the way, I also hope I didn't come off as too argumentative -- I really have no problem with the majority position that's formed here, but the "hey, volcanoes are worse than we are" tactic gets on my nerves, because at least on the timescale we're concerned with... no, they really aren't.)

-Chess

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#221544 - 02/13/07 08:14 PM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: Chess]
Minus Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 2236
Loc: Circling A Star
Quote:

By the way, I also hope I didn't come off as too argumentative -- I really have no problem with the majority position that's formed here...




You will never offend me with your logic. You are a very smart individual.

Quote:

...the "hey, volcanoes are worse than we are" tactic gets on my nerves, because at least on the timescale we're concerned with... no, they really aren't.




On the timescale I'm concerned with, neither scare me.
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Hail Satan!
Minus

"When the great lord passes, the wise peasant bows deeply and silently farts."
-Ethiopian Proverb

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#221545 - 02/13/07 09:14 PM Re: Satanism and Pollution [Re: TrojZyr]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8275
How commendable, your home, auto and everything else you do in your life to be ecologically friendly.

Now if you can convince every hypocrite on the left to do the same, starting with the leadership of the Democrat party..... May I suggest you begin with Ted Kennedy? He blocked wind power turbines from being erected in his swanky Massachoochoo neighborhood because "They would ruin the view". His words.

Yes, the right has down played this. And bully for them. The environmental movement is nothing more than the repository of the old communist guard from the 60's, those who espouse the idea of total government control of our lives.

So oil and coal have limited lifespans. So what doesn't? Is the Sun going to be around forever? Sure, I am all for developing new fuels, etc. But only when it is driven by science that in a free market, not by emotionalism and politics.
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"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


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